Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 01:26 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: On 2008/10/30 12:41 (GMT+1000) Chris Jones composed: And as mentioned already, anyone who uses mc will probably not be using it off a live cd anyway. Any time I boot a Knoppix CD it's a virtual certainty that the first thing I do once it finishes booting is start MC. I boot Knoppix to fix things, and MC is my main tool for generic fixing. A live CD without MC is like a tool chest that contains no wrench or socket that fits the most common bolt sizes, and no fitsall wrenches either. Except the Ubuntu Desktop CD isn't intended as a recovery disc. A Knoppix CD (which doesn't have the constraint that it should give a preview of a full Ubuntu install) is full of useful recovery programs. You appear to be complaining that the Ubuntu live CD isn't a good recovery disc, which is a reasonable statement. It's not really intended to be, so your follow up so you should add some things to make it a good recovery disc *isn't* a reasonable request when the CD is already full. If there were space enough to allow us to ship a Desktop CD that was both a full Ubuntu install *and* a good recovery disc, you could reasonably argue that we should ship mc on there. However there simply *isn't* enough space; the Desktop CD is an endless fight to fit onto a CD. Even if Midnight Commander could automatically fix every problem that could ever occur on any system, it *still* wouldn't get on the Desktop CD as a recovery tool! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 05:17:11PM +0100, Martin Pitt wrote: Felix Miata [2008-10-29 10:29 -0400]: How nice for you that you've never had broken X But that's not what you asked about? Even if your installed system is totally broken, the live system will always boot, and seriously, the chances that X doesn't work in the live system, not even with a boring 800x600 VESA, are so negligible that I wouldn't care. That's exactly what happens on my sister's desktop. She's been asking me to install Ubuntu forever, but none of the versions I tried has managed to bring up X. Even replacing the video card to the same one I have in my desktop didn't help. On those systems you can probably not install Ubuntu/Kubuntu in the first place. That was my reluctant conclusion. Marius Gedminas -- If Linux doesn't have the solution, you have the wrong problem. signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
Phillip Susi wrote: Felix Miata wrote: How nice for you that you've never had broken X, and never will have, and never will need to help someone else with broken X. So no, I don't think MC _needs_ to be anywhere. Right. You'll never need it, so no one else should have it either. Ever heard of the tyranny of the majority? How exactly is mc vital to fixing a broken X? Your argument seems like complaining that emacs is not installed on the livecd. While it is my favorite editor, I can get by just fine with pico or even vi if I must for rescue/recovery purposes. I might be missing the point here, but from reading Felix's previous messages, I believe he's more concerned that someone sold him a car without a jack... Sean -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:47:16 + Sean Hodges [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Phillip Susi wrote: Felix Miata wrote: How nice for you that you've never had broken X, and never will have, and never will need to help someone else with broken X. So no, I don't think MC _needs_ to be anywhere. Right. You'll never need it, so no one else should have it either. Ever heard of the tyranny of the majority? How exactly is mc vital to fixing a broken X? Your argument seems like complaining that emacs is not installed on the livecd. While it is my favorite editor, I can get by just fine with pico or even vi if I must for rescue/recovery purposes. I might be missing the point here, but from reading Felix's previous messages, I believe he's more concerned that someone sold him a car without a jack... Sean Well then I guess he got what he paid for. Seriously, Ubuntu development is very open and community oriented. There is a process for getting stuff promoted and seeded on a CD/DvD. Anyone can join in and give it a shot. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Midnight Commander in 8.10
Good day Please add mc to the '8.10'. It's very useful -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
Hi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please add mc to the '8.10'. It's very useful It's too late to change anything in 8.10, it's frozen solid :) Also, as useful as mc is, it's only useful to a small amount of users, and will waste precious space on the Ubuntu release discs. mc is incredibly easy to install and it's not a big download, so I doubt it will be an issue for anyone who wants to use it. -Jonathan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-10-29 5:12 +0800]: Good day Please add mc to the '8.10'. It's very useful It's right there, package mc, as it has always been in all Ubuntu releases. Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On 2008/10/29 11:56 (GMT+0200) Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) composed: Also, as useful as mc is, it's only useful to a small amount of users, and will waste precious space on the Ubuntu release discs. mc is incredibly easy to install and it's not a big download, so I doubt it will be an issue for anyone who wants to use it. Anyone who wants to use it on a live Ubuntu CD is dead. To that small amount of users that know and use it, it's indispensible, and thus to such users who install only to find broken X and/or networking, they're stuck with another dead end. Leaving mc off the CD is like equipping a new car with the usual spare tire, but no jack. Get a flat out in the boonies at night, and getting that missing jack is less than incredibly easy, unless what displaced it on the CD is a larger automatic jack delivery service or automatic lift. -- Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On Wednesday 29 October 2008 08:36, Felix Miata wrote: On 2008/10/29 11:56 (GMT+0200) Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) composed: Also, as useful as mc is, it's only useful to a small amount of users, and will waste precious space on the Ubuntu release discs. mc is incredibly easy to install and it's not a big download, so I doubt it will be an issue for anyone who wants to use it. Anyone who wants to use it on a live Ubuntu CD is dead. To that small amount of users that know and use it, it's indispensible, and thus to such users who install only to find broken X and/or networking, they're stuck with another dead end. Leaving mc off the CD is like equipping a new car with the usual spare tire, but no jack. Get a flat out in the boonies at night, and getting that missing jack is less than incredibly easy, unless what displaced it on the CD is a larger automatic jack delivery service or automatic lift. -- ... and doesn't have a network connection I use stuff not on the CD in live sessions all the time and unless you are networkless it's not a problem at all. Do keep in mind that the CD is full and so anything that goes on, means something else comes off. Balancing the interests of a diverse group of users in what goes on the CD is a continuing challenge. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On 2008/10/29 08:51 (GMT-0400) Scott Kitterman composed: On Wednesday 29 October 2008 08:36, Felix Miata wrote: ...users who install only to find broken X and/or networking ... Leaving mc off the CD is like equipping a new car with the usual spare tire, but no jack... ... and doesn't have a network connection For some number of boots, this is inevitable. I use stuff not on the CD in live sessions all the time and unless you are networkless it's not a problem at all. Networkless happens, sometimes intentionally. Do keep in mind that the CD is full and so anything that goes on, means something else comes off. Balancing the interests of a diverse group of users in what goes on the CD is a continuing challenge. This isn't the first time here mc has been deemed dispensible. This is why I have deemed all live Ubuntu CDs dispensible. Broken networking and broken X happen. I'm not wasting my time driving a car with no jack, and having to hitch a ride back for another car on those infrequent occasions when I do get a flat. I just start with a car smart enough to include the jack, like Knoppix, and recommend others do the same. -- Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
Am 29.10.2008 um 14:10 schrieb Felix Miata: This isn't the first time here mc has been deemed dispensible. This doesn't surprise me, as mc is a (intentionally old-fashioned) file manager an Nautilus covers this functionality already. One possible way of dealing with the situation is to add a Ubuntu derivate, composed for DOS fans. MarKus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On 2008/10/29 14:23 (GMT+0100) Markus Hitter composed: Am 29.10.2008 um 14:10 schrieb Felix Miata: This isn't the first time here mc has been deemed dispensible. This doesn't surprise me, as mc is a (intentionally old-fashioned) file manager an Nautilus covers this functionality already. One What Nautilus covers isn't of much relevance to Kubuntu users, or users with broken X, and certainly little to none to mc-dependent users. possible way of dealing with the situation is to add a Ubuntu derivate, composed for DOS fans. MC isn't about DOS, nor about old-fashioned. It's about efficiently performing the panoply of tasks in the OFM repertoire. http://www.softpanorama.org/OFM/index.shtml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_file_manager#Orthodox_file_managers MC needs to be on every live Linux CD. -- Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
I haven't used MC since late 1990's and I can't really say I miss it! I perform lots of file-managing tasks every day and I'm quite happy with Nautilus. So no, I don't think MC _needs_ to be anywhere. Rgds -Original Message- From: Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:41:45 -0400 Mailer: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; rv:1.8.1.17) Gecko/20080913 SeaMonkey/1.1.12 (PmW) On 2008/10/29 14:23 (GMT+0100) Markus Hitter composed: Am 29.10.2008 um 14:10 schrieb Felix Miata: This isn't the first time here mc has been deemed dispensible. This doesn't surprise me, as mc is a (intentionally old-fashioned) file manager an Nautilus covers this functionality already. One What Nautilus covers isn't of much relevance to Kubuntu users, or users with broken X, and certainly little to none to mc-dependent users. possible way of dealing with the situation is to add a Ubuntu derivate, composed for DOS fans. MC isn't about DOS, nor about old-fashioned. It's about efficiently performing the panoply of tasks in the OFM repertoire. http://www.softpanorama.org/OFM/index.shtml http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_file_manager#Orthodox_file_managers MC needs to be on every live Linux CD. -- Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On 2008/10/29 14:48 (GMT+0100) Thomas Novin composed: I haven't used MC since late 1990's and I can't really say I miss it! I perform lots of file-managing tasks every day and I'm quite happy with Nautilus. How nice for you that you've never had broken X, and never will have, and never will need to help someone else with broken X. So no, I don't think MC _needs_ to be anywhere. Right. You'll never need it, so no one else should have it either. Ever heard of the tyranny of the majority? -- Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 10:29 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: On 2008/10/29 14:48 (GMT+0100) Thomas Novin composed: I haven't used MC since late 1990's and I can't really say I miss it! I perform lots of file-managing tasks every day and I'm quite happy with Nautilus. How nice for you that you've never had broken X, and never will have, and never will need to help someone else with broken X. When X breaks, use bash. Simple enough. I think at that point, you're a bit more worried about fixing X than having a filebrowser that's your idea of pretty. Not that bash isn't a dandy file browser already, what that ls command and all. Honestly, between ls, mv, and cp, is there really any need at all for any file browser? I'm getting the impression from this thread that MC is for command-line users anyway. Right. You'll never need it, so no one else should have it either. Ever heard of the tyranny of the majority? I'm sorry, I didn't know Ubuntu was taking away your right to life by not shipping one specific file browser that you happen to prefer. I also wasn't aware that use of a certain filebrowser made you a minority usually subject to hate-crimes and thus in need of protection. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
Hi Felix Felix Miata wrote: I haven't used MC since late 1990's and I can't really say I miss it! I perform lots of file-managing tasks every day and I'm quite happy with Nautilus. How nice for you that you've never had broken X, and never will have, and never will need to help someone else with broken X. I'm sorry, but you seem to be missing the point. Firstly, there's not so much argument about how useful mc is. mc powerful and useful to many. I've been using it for quite a few things since 1999. What you have to realise is that the space on the Ubuntu installation disc is very, very limited. Every few releases, something very important to a vast majority of users have to be dropped because of the growth of all the applications. while mc is useful to many, it's certainly not critical, and the average user will certainly not want to learn mc in order to fix their X Server. By the way, how does mc fix X servers anyway? You're hitting quite hard on that point and I'm not quite sure how mc would make it easier for users to fix an X server. That's what things like the failsafe X session are for, unless you're refering to mcedit being a more intuitive editor for new users? -Jonathan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On 2008/10/29 17:18 (GMT+0200) Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) composed: Felix Miata wrote: I haven't used MC since late 1990's and I can't really say I miss it! I perform lots of file-managing tasks every day and I'm quite happy with Nautilus. How nice for you that you've never had broken X, and never will have, and never will need to help someone else with broken X. I'm sorry, but you seem to be missing the point. Firstly, there's not so much argument about how useful mc is. mc powerful and useful to many. I've been using it for quite a few things since 1999. I use it routinely, since 1986, when I first discovered NC, instead of using a bunch of other things I don't need to have or learn precisely because I have it. Knowing how to use OFMs has obviated more than token need to learn tools non-OFM bash users take for granted, and GUI users have no knowledge of or interest in. What you have to realise is that the space on the Ubuntu installation disc is very, very limited. This is ancient history that comes up every time some again asks to have it included by default. Those who don't use an OFM cannot appreciate the extraordinary value of an OFM. Thus, the tyranny of the majority rules neither mc nor any other OFM can live on a live buntu CD. Klaus Knopper knows its value, which makes his space-limited live CDs the live Linux media of choice for those in the know. You're hitting quite hard on that point and I'm not quite sure how mc would make it easier for users to fix an X server. Automatic tools for fixing X are nice when they work, but it's often the case that various and sundry things that a minor text edit would fix are impossible to fix with a fancy tool. Similar for networking. Though you may have X working, a telephone fix is often much easier navigating to a text file and changing a character or three than explaining how to grunge through yet another X with different menus and app names than the last. That's what things like the failsafe X session are for, unless you're refering to mcedit being a more intuitive editor for new users? It's rare for any tool to do more than a few things well, if even more than one. OFMs are such exceptions. The built-in FTP for fetching broken packages is easy to use, as that process is the same as fetching a file on a local filesystem, which is just as easy as in a GUI, having the advantage of a GUI in visually depicting the relationship of files and directories to each other, and making navigation a breeze. That an intuitive text editor is built in goes without saying. A couple of keystrokes, and you have an in place copy of the original, after which you edit and test, and copy the original back if it didn't help, with another very few keystrokes, quite unlike cp/mv/vi, etc. Helping a user in need over the phone to fix things like X or networking is easier if you can limit to one easy to use tool that requires a lot fewer steps to accomplish a difficult task. When you do it in mc you've taught a user to help himself, but that learning is only later useful in an environment that includes that tool. Really, it's a total waste of time to discuss OFMs with OFM non-users. People can't get what they're about if they don't use them. Only with routine use can anyone grasp just how valuable they really are, and now indispensable they are to those few who do depend on them. -- Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On 2008/10/29 10:37 (GMT-0400) Mackenzie Morgan composed: On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 10:29 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: How nice for you that you've never had broken X, and never will have, and never will need to help someone else with broken X. When X breaks, use bash. Simple enough. Wrong. Not simple, unless you're familiar with it. OFM use obviates most need to know bash and the many tools bash users need to accomplish useful work. In 20+ years of OFM use, I've found little need to use or learn many tools for both cmdline and X, as OFM incorporates so many necessaries and works regardless where you are, be it Windoz, DOS, cmdline, XFCE, Unix or whatever your favorite or captive environment. Right. You'll never need it, so no one else should have it either. Ever heard of the tyranny of the majority? ...not shipping one specific file browser that you happen to prefer. I'm not picky. As long as there is some OFM that works the same on both cmdline and X on the live CD, I'm OK with it. I'm just not sure there is any other OFM option but mc in buntu. -- Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
Felix Miata [2008-10-29 10:29 -0400]: How nice for you that you've never had broken X But that's not what you asked about? Even if your installed system is totally broken, the live system will always boot, and seriously, the chances that X doesn't work in the live system, not even with a boring 800x600 VESA, are so negligible that I wouldn't care. On those systems you can probably not install Ubuntu/Kubuntu in the first place. Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
Hi, I am sorry to but in like this but this seems like a non-issue really or have i missed the point entirely? @Felix: You want mc on the CD since you have neither X nor a working network? I mean 'sudo apt-get install mc' is not really hard to type right? There are several potential problems with people not having sufficient rights etc to install and live-cd only servers can of course be a hassle but is it really such a big problem to either install mc or learn/teach a few bash cmds and a few moves in another editor? Is it really on the 8.04 CD? I had to install it manually. As for the value of OFM, I would like to emphasize the value power of bash. You can't beat the bash. For the record I would just like to say that i wouldn't mind having mc included, I kind of like it so if there is space let's put it in! / Henrik ons 2008-10-29 klockan 12:08 -0400 skrev Felix Miata: On 2008/10/29 17:18 (GMT+0200) Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) composed: Felix Miata wrote: I haven't used MC since late 1990's and I can't really say I miss it! I perform lots of file-managing tasks every day and I'm quite happy with Nautilus. How nice for you that you've never had broken X, and never will have, and never will need to help someone else with broken X. I'm sorry, but you seem to be missing the point. Firstly, there's not so much argument about how useful mc is. mc powerful and useful to many. I've been using it for quite a few things since 1999. I use it routinely, since 1986, when I first discovered NC, instead of using a bunch of other things I don't need to have or learn precisely because I have it. Knowing how to use OFMs has obviated more than token need to learn tools non-OFM bash users take for granted, and GUI users have no knowledge of or interest in. What you have to realise is that the space on the Ubuntu installation disc is very, very limited. This is ancient history that comes up every time some again asks to have it included by default. Those who don't use an OFM cannot appreciate the extraordinary value of an OFM. Thus, the tyranny of the majority rules neither mc nor any other OFM can live on a live buntu CD. Klaus Knopper knows its value, which makes his space-limited live CDs the live Linux media of choice for those in the know. You're hitting quite hard on that point and I'm not quite sure how mc would make it easier for users to fix an X server. Automatic tools for fixing X are nice when they work, but it's often the case that various and sundry things that a minor text edit would fix are impossible to fix with a fancy tool. Similar for networking. Though you may have X working, a telephone fix is often much easier navigating to a text file and changing a character or three than explaining how to grunge through yet another X with different menus and app names than the last. That's what things like the failsafe X session are for, unless you're refering to mcedit being a more intuitive editor for new users? It's rare for any tool to do more than a few things well, if even more than one. OFMs are such exceptions. The built-in FTP for fetching broken packages is easy to use, as that process is the same as fetching a file on a local filesystem, which is just as easy as in a GUI, having the advantage of a GUI in visually depicting the relationship of files and directories to each other, and making navigation a breeze. That an intuitive text editor is built in goes without saying. A couple of keystrokes, and you have an in place copy of the original, after which you edit and test, and copy the original back if it didn't help, with another very few keystrokes, quite unlike cp/mv/vi, etc. Helping a user in need over the phone to fix things like X or networking is easier if you can limit to one easy to use tool that requires a lot fewer steps to accomplish a difficult task. When you do it in mc you've taught a user to help himself, but that learning is only later useful in an environment that includes that tool. Really, it's a total waste of time to discuss OFMs with OFM non-users. People can't get what they're about if they don't use them. Only with routine use can anyone grasp just how valuable they really are, and now indispensable they are to those few who do depend on them. -- Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry.James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ signature.asc Description: Detta är en digitalt signerad meddelandedel -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
Felix Miata wrote: How nice for you that you've never had broken X, and never will have, and never will need to help someone else with broken X. So no, I don't think MC _needs_ to be anywhere. Right. You'll never need it, so no one else should have it either. Ever heard of the tyranny of the majority? How exactly is mc vital to fixing a broken X? Your argument seems like complaining that emacs is not installed on the livecd. While it is my favorite editor, I can get by just fine with pico or even vi if I must for rescue/recovery purposes. At the end of the day if you prefer your rescue/recovery cd to have mc on it, then use one that has it. You mention Knoppix, so go ahead and use that if you like it. Remember: the Ubuntu live cd is primarily a demo/install disk rather than a rescue/recovery tool, like Knoppix is. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On 2008/10/29 16:28 (GMT-0400) Phillip Susi composed: How exactly is mc vital to fixing a broken X? It's vital to fixing broken __, __, __, ___, etc., etc. in generic fashion, and extremely helpful in talking an unfamiliar user through same. Only one tool is required to find, download, upload, edit, backup, etc, and it works with or without working X. When it hasn't been in a default installed, I'll be one less helper to talk someone in need through an unnerving and difficult experience. -- Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
Regarding Midnight Commander (mc): I'm a very heavy user of mc and use it for pretty much anything file related on a day-to-day basis. And once you get used to it and know how to harness its power, you'll never use Nautilus (or any other graphical file manager) again. And I'm not speaking for a minority here, there's plenty of power users out there that use it and can't live without it. But, as far as putting it onto the Live CD, I don't think that's a priority to be honest. I think there's more important files that could be added over mc. And as mentioned already, anyone who uses mc will probably not be using it off a live cd anyway. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth. Regards -- Chris Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 05:01:33PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote: On 2008/10/29 16:28 (GMT-0400) Phillip Susi composed: How exactly is mc vital to fixing a broken X? It's vital to fixing broken __, __, __, ___, etc., etc. in generic fashion (Citation needed) -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 03:11 +, Matthew Garrett wrote: On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 05:01:33PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote: On 2008/10/29 16:28 (GMT-0400) Phillip Susi composed: How exactly is mc vital to fixing a broken X? It's vital to fixing broken __, __, __, ___, etc., etc. in generic fashion (Citation needed) http://xkcd.com/285/ FF -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Midnight Commander in 8.10
On 2008/10/30 12:41 (GMT+1000) Chris Jones composed: And as mentioned already, anyone who uses mc will probably not be using it off a live cd anyway. Any time I boot a Knoppix CD it's a virtual certainty that the first thing I do once it finishes booting is start MC. I boot Knoppix to fix things, and MC is my main tool for generic fixing. A live CD without MC is like a tool chest that contains no wrench or socket that fits the most common bolt sizes, and no fitsall wrenches either. -- Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
