Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[Földes László]

As per the memory usage when closing a tab, that's by design. As long
as you have memory to spare, it won't free the tab immediately so that
it's fast to reopen via "Recently Used Tabs". I'm not necessarily sure
I agree with that decision, but it isn't a bug regardless.

Firefox should not only optimize closed tabs, but open tabs as well 
since they introduced Panorama in version 4. Panorama is a surefire way 
to make people never close a tab, just hide it. Tabs become like half 
loaded bookmarks, and I like the idea.
The last time I used Panorama with 7 groups and 34 tabs, Firefox was 
eating 1.2 Gbyte memory on a 2 Gbyte Windows 7 system with an open 
Virtualbox virtual machine with dedicated 1 Gbyte memory. Swapping hell 
just began.
When I restarted Firefox, memory consumption dropped down to "only" ~500 
Mbytes.


A few dozen open tabs won't hurt Chrome that much, although this in 
itself is not enough for me to ditch Firefox in favor of Chromium.


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Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[Alexandre Strube]

Am I right to suppose that Canonical makes money with the browser/search
engine pair?

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 10:53 PM, Dylan McCall  wrote:

> Oh no, not this thread again!
>
> Folks, we have proven one thing with these threads over the last year:
> it is impossible to adequately solve the Chromium vs. Firefox debate
> in a mailing list. There are just too many variables; install size,
> stability, accessibility, support lifecycle, upstream involvement,
> integration, consistency… the list goes on. If I can make a
> suggestion, we should really use this time to figure out what should
> be discussed at UDS (and how), and then discuss it at UDS where
> everyone with stakes in the discussion can jump in and hopefully we
> can come to a satisfying conclusion that doesn't involve “browser X
> doesn't have feature B that I use.”
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dylan
>
> *Trying very hard to not mention that I prefer Chromium :b*
>
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Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[Dylan McCall]

Oh no, not this thread again!

Folks, we have proven one thing with these threads over the last year:
it is impossible to adequately solve the Chromium vs. Firefox debate
in a mailing list. There are just too many variables; install size,
stability, accessibility, support lifecycle, upstream involvement,
integration, consistency… the list goes on. If I can make a
suggestion, we should really use this time to figure out what should
be discussed at UDS (and how), and then discuss it at UDS where
everyone with stakes in the discussion can jump in and hopefully we
can come to a satisfying conclusion that doesn't involve “browser X
doesn't have feature B that I use.”

Thanks!

Dylan

*Trying very hard to not mention that I prefer Chromium :b*

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Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[John Moser]

On 05/01/2011 01:28 PM, Jason Todd wrote:

Chromium/Chrome has a lot of problems that Firefox doesn't have.

The only substantial advantages that Chromium/Chrome has is its 
multi-process design (stability), it starts faster, and its nifty 
method of showing downloads at the bottom of the browser window. And 
when Firefox gets Electrolysis implemented the stability advantage of 
Chrome will be eliminated.




I like its smart form filling stuff too, but that's me.  (If I start 
typing my name, it'll give me options to pick sets of data I filled 
before, and try to fill in the whole form for me based on what I entered 
in other, completely different forms)



Here are some of the problems I have with Chrome/Chromium:
-lacks NoScript functionality 
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=54257


Not standard in Ubuntu, if you want that you can install Firefox.  
Already stated.


Also:  Chromium does not have $FAVORITE_FIREFOX_EXTENSION WHY IS THERE 
NO BRIEF FOR CHROMIUM!?!?
-cannot handle MMS URL streams 
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=47154

No comment (don't care about this)
-can't close single window via keyboard 
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=80424#c0


I just tried CTRL+N, CTRL+T, creates multiple tabs in new window.  
CTRL+W closes a separate tab, until you run out of tabs and close the 
window; ALT+F4 just drops the whole window.  Your argument is invalid.


-Private/Incognito does not apply to all windows 
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=79689#c0


I thought these were supposed to apply to individual tabs?  I don't know 
about Incognito mode so I won't comment.


-cursor functions fail when gtkrc 2.0 tooltips are turned off 
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=77821#c0
-can't cycle thru dropdown list with TAB key 
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=77607#c0
-the dropdown list does not list bookmark occurrences as thoroughly as 
Firefox does (I can explain more thoroughly if needed)
-it is not possible to place a dropdown Bookmarks Button on the URL 
bar (users are forced to use crappy 3rd party options)

I have no clue about these things

-inability to customize/move Button placements on the URL bar
Customization of the UI indicates to me that you are not used to the UI 
being given you, thus it is not your favorite program, thus you will 
probably want to install Opera instead of trying to make Firefox/Chrome 
look like Opera.



-can't reopen closed tabs if in Incognito mode
-Firefox is faster on many benchmarks 
http://download.cnet.com/8301-2007_4-20047314-12.html


IE is faster on many benchmarks.  There is a whole class of arguments 
about benchmarks and why they don't work.  This is why graphics card 
reviewers pull out games and look at the FPS:  actual performance often 
doesn't correlate to the benchmarks at all.



-there is no print preview

Hadn't noticed, as I don't own a printer.

Print preview in Firefox ... I haven't used in ages, because it was 
always buggy somehow.  Like it would show me 30 pages and print half of 
one, and I couldn't understand why (this was on a certain web site that 
generated a transcript for a college).  But that's neither here nor there.


-there is no quick method of reviewing Recent Bookmarks without 
drilling down into windows/menus




I've forgotten what a bookmark is...

I like Chrome a lot. But it can't compete with Firefox as a fully 
capable and mature browser. It's better as a minimalist occasional use 
browser.




Dunno, I switched away from Firefox because Chromium was far more 
stable, faster (UI wise), and faster (rendering-wise).  It handles 
JavaScript well (unlike Dillo), it renders properly, and I like its new 
tab page over a blank tab.


Firefox 4 has that tab sorting thing, though, which I really wish was in 
Chromium.  Well, not really; but I use it when it's there.




> Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 10:36:45 -0400
> From: john.r.mo...@gmail.com
> To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Chromium vs Firefox?
>
> Has anyone yet brought up the potential to ship Chromium default rather
> than Firefox? At this point it's more advanced methinks, with the only
> likely complaint being that you can't add NoScript or AdBlock+. Ubuntu
> doesn't ship these default anyway; if you want those things, you can 
get

> Firefox yourself, as you likely already know what you're doing.
>
> For the privacy discussion, see SRWare Iron as a potential source of
> ideas for changes to back-merge (or options to add).
>
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RE: Chromium vs Firefox?

[Jason Todd]

Chromium/Chrome has a lot of problems that Firefox doesn't have. 
The only substantial advantages that Chromium/Chrome has is its multi-process 
design (stability), it starts faster, and its nifty method of showing downloads 
at the bottom of the browser window. And when Firefox gets Electrolysis 
implemented the stability advantage of Chrome will be eliminated.
Here are some of the problems I have with Chrome/Chromium:-lacks NoScript 
functionality  http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=54257-cannot 
handle MMS URL streams  
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=47154-can't close single 
window via keyboard  
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=80424#c0-Private/Incognito 
does not apply to all windows 
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=79689#c0-cursor functions 
fail when gtkrc 2.0 tooltips are turned off  
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=77821#c0-can't cycle thru 
dropdown list with TAB key  
http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=77607#c0-the dropdown list 
does not list bookmark occurrences as thoroughly as Firefox does (I can explain 
more thoroughly if needed)-it is not possible to place a dropdown Bookmarks 
Button on the URL bar (users are forced to use crappy 3rd party 
options)-inability to customize/move Button placements on the URL bar-can't 
reopen closed tabs if in Incognito mode-Firefox is faster on many benchmarks  
http://download.cnet.com/8301-2007_4-20047314-12.html-there is no print 
preview-there is no quick method of reviewing Recent Bookmarks without drilling 
down into windows/menus
I like Chrome a lot. But it can't compete with Firefox as a fully capable and 
mature browser. It's better as a minimalist occasional use browser.


> Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 10:36:45 -0400
> From: john.r.mo...@gmail.com
> To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Chromium vs Firefox?
> 
> Has anyone yet brought up the potential to ship Chromium default rather 
> than Firefox?  At this point it's more advanced methinks, with the only 
> likely complaint being that you can't add NoScript or AdBlock+.  Ubuntu 
> doesn't ship these default anyway; if you want those things, you can get 
> Firefox yourself, as you likely already know what you're doing.
> 
> For the privacy discussion, see SRWare Iron as a potential source of 
> ideas for changes to back-merge (or options to add).
> 
> -- 
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Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[John Moser]

On 05/01/2011 11:28 AM, Remco wrote:

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 16:36, John Moser  wrote:

Has anyone yet brought up the potential to ship Chromium default rather than
Firefox?  At this point it's more advanced methinks, with the only likely
complaint being that you can't add NoScript or AdBlock+.  Ubuntu doesn't
ship these default anyway; if you want those things, you can get Firefox
yourself, as you likely already know what you're doing.

For the privacy discussion, see SRWare Iron as a potential source of ideas
for changes to back-merge (or options to add).

"More advanced" is not very persuasive. What are the actual pros and
cons of Firefox and Chromium? Firefox is twice as popular as Chrome,


Irrelevant.  Firefox is twice as popular as Chrome because it's shipped 
by default in Linux distributions.  Internet Explorer is much more 
popular than either.


I feel Firefox (read:  everyone) has been playing catch-up to Chromium 
lately (like IE was playing catch-up to Firefox an age ago), so there 
are probably fewer pros and cons than I'd like in a well-constructed 
argument.  There are a lot of irrelevant "firsts," like "Firefox stole 
Chrome's UI for Firefox 4" (no menus), "Firefox got the idea to run 
plug-ins and tabs in separate processes from Chrome," etc.  Of course, 
Firefox did the Awesome Bar first, so it goes both ways.  I still like 
Chromium's New Tab default page better than Firefox's (i.e. a blank 
page), and have been waiting for Firefox to copy that.


This is only of relevance if you care about the argument that Chromium 
was built as-is from the ground up, whereas Firefox has gone through 
multiple iterations of refactoring of basic program architecture--like 
OpenOffice.org.  Of course, the argument that the Mozilla codebase is 
and always has been a mess and has been handed through 3 companies and 
multiple programming teams and has had many, many architectural changes 
in place is an ad-hominem fallacy; if you want a real argument in that 
direction, you'll have to do a complete code analysis looking for 
structural flaws.




and a lot of time was invested in integrating Firefox into Ubuntu.


... what?  Integrating ... what?  I saw the stuff where it can 
automagically call Synaptic, but I assume most of that code is rather 
modular and plugged into a Firefox extension.  Popping it into a 
Chromium extension should be trivial, in theory; actually writing the 
extension (i.e. glue code between all that stuff and Chromium itself) 
would be the only intensive work, which admittedly could be a fair 
amount of work.


Of course, i tend to assume programs are [Business logic]<->[User 
Interface], and rarely consider integrating any business logic into the 
user interface.  People seem to like to emit things and allow them to be 
strung into lists in the UI side, though... (especially of note is 
people who use List UI elements as linked lists, rather than populating 
them from a linked list generated by business logic code).

There need to be compelling reasons for a switch. That said, I think
they are going to discuss this topic during the Ubuntu Developer
Summit. In-person discussions work very well for these kinds of
things.



This is all very true.

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Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[Remco]

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 16:36, John Moser  wrote:
> Has anyone yet brought up the potential to ship Chromium default rather than
> Firefox?  At this point it's more advanced methinks, with the only likely
> complaint being that you can't add NoScript or AdBlock+.  Ubuntu doesn't
> ship these default anyway; if you want those things, you can get Firefox
> yourself, as you likely already know what you're doing.
>
> For the privacy discussion, see SRWare Iron as a potential source of ideas
> for changes to back-merge (or options to add).

"More advanced" is not very persuasive. What are the actual pros and
cons of Firefox and Chromium? Firefox is twice as popular as Chrome,
and a lot of time was invested in integrating Firefox into Ubuntu.
There need to be compelling reasons for a switch. That said, I think
they are going to discuss this topic during the Ubuntu Developer
Summit. In-person discussions work very well for these kinds of
things.

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Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[Evan Huus]

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 11:00 AM, John Moser  wrote:
> This has not been my experience.  Flash seems to crash a lot in chromium,
> but it doesn't take it down.  I've had Chromium blow out completely once,
> and once I've had every single page in it turn to "Sad Browser."  But that
> was around Chromium 5.
>
> Firefox has been doing better, but it only seems to handle a Flash crash
> once or twice:  after the first crash, if you reload a page with Flash,
> Flash will likely crash AGAIN very quickly and tear down the whole browser.
> Firefox also tends to go down if you have too much crap going on, i.e. if
> you load a page that runs excessive scripts or brings in too many GIF
> images.  The whole UI will lag (Firefox 4 too), and often crash if it comes
> under too much load doing too many things (race conditions?).  I've never
> seen Firefox actually free memory by closing a tab.
>
> Chromium has been a lot faster and a lot more stable for me.  I use Firefox
> 4 at work and Chromium at home, and I'm constantly restarting Firefox after
> it crashes.  I switched to Firefox 3 for a time, it's more stable but still
> crashes--a lot less than 4, but 2-3 times a week.  Also, when one tab in
> Chromium is lagged down to the point of complete and total browser crawl,
> you can still switch to other tabs and use them like nothing is happening.
>
> So eh.  What's "unstable"?

I'm a fairly heavy firefox user on both ubuntu and windows, and I've
never seen anywhere near that level of crashing. It could be I'm just
lucky, but have you tried browsing for a while on a fresh,
extension-free profile?

As per the memory usage when closing a tab, that's by design. As long
as you have memory to spare, it won't free the tab immediately so that
it's fast to reopen via "Recently Used Tabs". I'm not necessarily sure
I agree with that decision, but it isn't a bug regardless.

Just my two cents,
Evan

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Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[John Moser]

On 05/01/2011 11:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/05/01 10:36 (GMT-0400) John Moser composed:


Has anyone yet brought up the potential to ship Chromium default rather
than Firefox?  At this point it's more advanced methinks, with the only
likely complaint being that you can't add NoScript or AdBlock+.  Ubuntu
doesn't ship these default anyway; if you want those things, you can get
Firefox yourself, as you likely already know what you're doing.


Chromium UI text is fixed tiny, and at 96 DPI. Unless this condition 
has changed since I last checked, there's no way to configure it with 
UI text large enough to read in 120, 144 or higher DPI environments. 
Epiphany should be another option, but it's still missing an option to 
adjust web page default text size to taste last I checked in a release 
version of it. It's supposed to be there for Gnome 3.




I don't think I like Epiphany.  I use it as a back-up browser though; 
it's not technically bad, a little lighter than Firefox.


In any case, why not patch Chromium if the UI text size needs to vary 
based on system configuration?


Oh, and I'm running Firefox 2 (without Flash), Firefox 3.6.1x, Firefox 
4 (without Flash), SeaMonkey 2.0.x, and SeaMonkey 2.1b3 (without 
Flash) simultaneously for a week or more at a time (on openSUSE 11.2 
with KDE3) without crashing. Maybe your crashing problems are 
connected to the sites you frequent, or something *buntu is doing 
differently building Firefox or installing flash-player than openSUSE, 
or a different video driver (I'm using radeon), or Unity (or KDE4)?


If my crashing problems are connected to the sites I frequent, and they 
crash Firefox but not Chromium, then that's a bug in Firefox.


"Without Flash" is interesting, but "With Flash" is an important use case.

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Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[Felix Miata]

On 2011/05/01 10:36 (GMT-0400) John Moser composed:


Has anyone yet brought up the potential to ship Chromium default rather
than Firefox?  At this point it's more advanced methinks, with the only
likely complaint being that you can't add NoScript or AdBlock+.  Ubuntu
doesn't ship these default anyway; if you want those things, you can get
Firefox yourself, as you likely already know what you're doing.


Chromium UI text is fixed tiny, and at 96 DPI. Unless this condition has 
changed since I last checked, there's no way to configure it with UI text 
large enough to read in 120, 144 or higher DPI environments. Epiphany should 
be another option, but it's still missing an option to adjust web page 
default text size to taste last I checked in a release version of it. It's 
supposed to be there for Gnome 3.


Oh, and I'm running Firefox 2 (without Flash), Firefox 3.6.1x, Firefox 4 
(without Flash), SeaMonkey 2.0.x, and SeaMonkey 2.1b3 (without Flash) 
simultaneously for a week or more at a time (on openSUSE 11.2 with KDE3) 
without crashing. Maybe your crashing problems are connected to the sites you 
frequent, or something *buntu is doing differently building Firefox or 
installing flash-player than openSUSE, or a different video driver (I'm using 
radeon), or Unity (or KDE4)?

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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

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Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[John Moser]

This has not been my experience.  Flash seems to crash a lot in 
chromium, but it doesn't take it down.  I've had Chromium blow out 
completely once, and once I've had every single page in it turn to "Sad 
Browser."  But that was around Chromium 5.


Firefox has been doing better, but it only seems to handle a Flash crash 
once or twice:  after the first crash, if you reload a page with Flash, 
Flash will likely crash AGAIN very quickly and tear down the whole 
browser.  Firefox also tends to go down if you have too much crap going 
on, i.e. if you load a page that runs excessive scripts or brings in too 
many GIF images.  The whole UI will lag (Firefox 4 too), and often crash 
if it comes under too much load doing too many things (race 
conditions?).  I've never seen Firefox actually free memory by closing a 
tab.


Chromium has been a lot faster and a lot more stable for me.  I use 
Firefox 4 at work and Chromium at home, and I'm constantly restarting 
Firefox after it crashes.  I switched to Firefox 3 for a time, it's more 
stable but still crashes--a lot less than 4, but 2-3 times a week.  
Also, when one tab in Chromium is lagged down to the point of complete 
and total browser crawl, you can still switch to other tabs and use them 
like nothing is happening.


So eh.  What's "unstable"?


On 05/01/2011 10:54 AM, Alexandre Strube wrote:

Define "more advanced".

It is also less stable.

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 4:36 PM, John Moser > wrote:


Has anyone yet brought up the potential to ship Chromium default
rather than Firefox?  At this point it's more advanced methinks,
with the only likely complaint being that you can't add NoScript
or AdBlock+.  Ubuntu doesn't ship these default anyway; if you
want those things, you can get Firefox yourself, as you likely
already know what you're doing.

For the privacy discussion, see SRWare Iron as a potential source
of ideas for changes to back-merge (or options to add).

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Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[Evan Huus]

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, John Moser  wrote:
> Has anyone yet brought up the potential to ship Chromium default rather than
> Firefox?  At this point it's more advanced methinks, with the only likely
> complaint being that you can't add NoScript or AdBlock+.  Ubuntu doesn't
> ship these default anyway; if you want those things, you can get Firefox
> yourself, as you likely already know what you're doing.
>
> For the privacy discussion, see SRWare Iron as a potential source of ideas
> for changes to back-merge (or options to add).

I can't think of a compelling reason to switch. After a quick browse
and performance test in each, Chromium and Firefox (both latest
versions) seem about on par. What are you referring to when you say
it's "more advanced"?

Just my two cents,
Evan

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Re: Chromium vs Firefox?

[Alexandre Strube]

Define "more advanced".

It is also less stable.

On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 4:36 PM, John Moser  wrote:

> Has anyone yet brought up the potential to ship Chromium default rather
> than Firefox?  At this point it's more advanced methinks, with the only
> likely complaint being that you can't add NoScript or AdBlock+.  Ubuntu
> doesn't ship these default anyway; if you want those things, you can get
> Firefox yourself, as you likely already know what you're doing.
>
> For the privacy discussion, see SRWare Iron as a potential source of ideas
> for changes to back-merge (or options to add).
>
> --
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