Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sun, 2008-12-28 at 10:04 +, Tim Hawkins wrote: > while there are tools like unetbootin that can create an image from an > iso, they are a pain to use. And in my experience, they don't work. I've tried UNetBootin, the thing in the System -> Administration menu, and USB Image Writer (the way recommended for getting the netbook remix image onto a flash drive), and all of them claimed to complete successfully. None booted. The thing in the menu results in "Missing Operating System" being printed twice, UNetbootin prints it once, and the netbook remix w/ USB Image Writer just results in a blank screen. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Chris Cheney wrote: > Windows is a DVD now > MacOS is a DVD as well > > Perhaps its time to move the default Ubuntu release to a DVD also. ;-) > If I remember correctly the main reason it hasn't been so far is due to > distribution issues as a DVD is 4.5GiB vs 700MiB for a CD. Thus it would > take a very long time to download for a large percentage of the world. > Although perhaps this is not as big an issue since many places have a > bandwidth cap as well so people wouldn't be downloading the image in the > first place? (developer hat on) Ubuntu Studio has shipped a DVD only from the start and probably the #1 question we get is: "When will you guys have a CD release?". One of the reasons we sometimes get or this request is that people in more developing parts of the world don't have DVD drives. As we're aiming at different hardware requirements and the tools people expect just don't fit on a CD, we won't be doing a CD. But general desktop users are different. Much more broad a user segment. There are other issues (as this thread demonstrates) to consider. (user hat on) As a user, I appreciate the CD-sized disk. CD's are cheap when compared to DVDs. As far as the updates are concerned, I've always agreed with others that Ubuntu is a "broadband OS". I thought things like OO.o updates have actually been smaller last couple of releases and that was usually the only bear for me. -Cory K. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Fedora 10 provides a USB disk image, which can just be DD'd onto a blank key. With the rapid rise in the numbers of compact netbooks with no optical media readers included, perhaps this makes more sense, most machines now will boot from a usb key. while there are tools like unetbootin that can create an image from an iso, they are a pain to use. On 28 Dec 2008, at 06:49, Chris Cheney wrote: > On Sat, 2008-12-27 at 16:47 +, richard wrote: > <-snip-> >> He knows that if he buys a copy of windows 1 CD maybe 2 > <-snip-> > > Windows is a DVD now > MacOS is a DVD as well > > Perhaps its time to move the default Ubuntu release to a DVD also. ;-) > If I remember correctly the main reason it hasn't been so far is due > to > distribution issues as a DVD is 4.5GiB vs 700MiB for a CD. Thus it > would > take a very long time to download for a large percentage of the world. > Although perhaps this is not as big an issue since many places have a > bandwidth cap as well so people wouldn't be downloading the image in > the > first place? > > Chris > > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Connecting and transferring data online during an offline media install is not an expected activity, it is the kind of "phone home" activity that is derided of other OS's such as Microsoft windows. It is especially bad given that the user does not know its going to happen, and does not know why it is happening. Installing a new operating system is a trust activity, if the OS starts doing things you don't expect it damages that trust. Right at the time when the users first impressions are being formed. If i use a netboot install, i expect it to access the net, if I install from a CD I expect it to install from the media I designated, the CD. I do not expect it to access the net with out informing me what or why it is doing it. Just my 2cents. On 26 Dec 2008, at 05:29, nergar wrote: > This is getting out of proportion. Ubuntu should NOT ask if it is ok > to > get updates. We are trying to run a "Linux for human beings" distro > and > if we start taking steps in this direction, we might as well ask for > permission to connect when opening firefox. The last thing we need are > more dialogs to confuse/annoy users. > > Another thing to take into account is, Linux is about CHOICES. If > anyone > feels like a control freak they should be using Arch or Gentoo or any > other distro that will fit them better. > > We have more important things to worry about, like stability. Ubuntu > has > become very unstable lately. > > HggdH wrote: >> Le Thursday 25 December 2008 à 22:40 +0200, Dotan Cohen a écrit : >>> 2008/12/25 Manish Sinha : I again repeat the above line since bandwidth is one of the two main issues, first being the installer connecting to the internet without user's consent. >>> Having the network cable plugged in implies consent. If you don't >>> want >>> you computer connecting to a network, then don't plug it in. I have >>> lived in areas of limited and expensive bandwidth, and even for a >>> desktop with the network cable under the desk, it seemed common >>> sense >>> that so long as it was plugged in, something would try to connect. >> >> Sorry, you are generalising from your own perceptions. The original >> complaint was clearly set against going out into the wild Internet >> without asking first (and, , downloading other/new >> programmes). >> >> I agree with it. If I have a full CD with Ubuntu, I do not expect >> it to >> get into the Internet without telling me first, no matter what. >> >> If being connected is what it takes to get out, then warn/suggest the >> user to disconnect if no such contact is wanted. But never expect >> *implicit*, *implied*, consents to have been given. >> >> The fact that something will try to connect if a connection is >> available >> is the root of the problem. The default should be *NO* connection >> unless >> explicitly allowed, be it out or in. >> > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Olá Mackenzie e a todos. On Tuesday 30 December 2008 14:20:12 Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > Very confusing...this email totally lacked linebreaks when I viewed it > in Evolution, but when I reply, there apparently are linebreaks. > Evolution does freaky things sometimes. I see the same on Kmail. Hotmail is plain stupid. -- BUGabundo :o) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... Merry xtmas and Happy New Year http://www.ubuntu-pt.org/static/pictures/ecard.png signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > Very confusing...this email totally lacked linebreaks when I viewed it > in Evolution, but when I reply, there apparently are linebreaks. > Evolution does freaky things sometimes. > > On Mon, 2008-12-29 at 19:53 +, Richard Tattersall wrote: >> Is it not possible to release cd images with a default language other >> than english? Surely the most logical solution would be to have a >> separate .iso released for handful of the most common languages. >> I am not familiar with how translation in software really works so >> please correct me if I am barking up the wrong tree here. > > The French LoCo team does remixes like this already. > > Doing that is not really an option, not only because all Ubuntu images are manually tested by the QA team (some automated tests are also done) and would then require a lot more testers to cover all test cases on all the generated images but you'd also need a lot more space on releases.ubuntu.com that we don't have and won't have (mirroring issue IIRC). Sorry for being so negative but multiple ISO images are really not a good idea :) Stéphane -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAklazloACgkQjxyfqkjBhuyFPgCeLzXztIhBGii4VBGfKNPhXlWc crcAn3+CBi8o5jvEIExJTSlj8vs8mMpg =BUpN -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Very confusing...this email totally lacked linebreaks when I viewed it in Evolution, but when I reply, there apparently are linebreaks. Evolution does freaky things sometimes. On Mon, 2008-12-29 at 19:53 +, Richard Tattersall wrote: > Is it not possible to release cd images with a default language other > than english? Surely the most logical solution would be to have a > separate .iso released for handful of the most common languages. > I am not familiar with how translation in software really works so > please correct me if I am barking up the wrong tree here. The French LoCo team does remixes like this already. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Mon, 2008-12-29 at 19:53 +, Richard Tattersall wrote: > I dont feel that the time is quite right to move to having the default > release as a DVD. Why not have more than one default release? Ok it sounds tricky but if the DVD release is simply a superset of the CD it should not be much more work. As I said before, with 16 gig USB drives becoming common and netbooks with entirely solid stat storage it would be really neat to buy a solid state disc with Ubuntu and all the popular apps pre-installed and just insert it into your machine. A lot of people would pay for that convenience and it's something tat would e pretty well impossible to do with proprietary software. > Obviously at some point in the future as the code increases this will > have to happen, but surely this should be a decision taken by the core > developers only when they feel that trying to make it fit on a CD > will mean removing too much of the core functionality to make it a > viable out-of-the-box desktop experience. > > Much of the usefulness and charm of Ubuntu comes from it maintaining > its relatively small size and handyness, even on older systems. > > As a small aside, i also fear that moving to a DVD too early may > result in unessesary bloat. To an extent one man's bloat is another's essential feature :-) > Is it not possible to release cd images with a default language other > than english? Surely the most logical solution would be to have a > separate .iso released for handful of the most common languages. > I am not familiar with how translation in software really works so > please correct me if I am barking up the wrong tree here. Not sure with Ubuntu but OOo has separate localisation projects and each project can produce it's own ISO if it wants to. > I would also like to lend support to the idea of asking the user > before the installer connects to the internet. Although it may seem > trivial to some people, I see it as simply being polite. I dont want > to feel like my OS thinks it knows what I want better than I do. Agreed. I think this is a bit of a different issue really because updates would still be needed whatever the size of the default install. > A simple dialog along these lines would suffice, and help the user to > feel like they are using an OS, not the other way around: > > "To install the the following components you have selected, extra > packages must be downloaded from the internet: > > To install these now, please click continue. If you do not wish to > install these right now, please click install later > " -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/29 Dotan Cohen : > 2008/12/29 Peteris Krisjanis : >> Cost of printing DVD is equal of CDs (as far as I know), so I think >> the right way to solve this is to offer to buy or order for free (like >> ship it) DVD instead of CD (but leaving CD also as a choice). Also I >> would suggest to have monthly or three-monthly CDs with updates for >> main (which could be commercial offering) so users who just want to up >> to date their systems can get it, throw it in, read some legal yada >> yada yada, click agree, enter their password (if they're admins) and >> vola, their system get's updated. >> >> More or less harsh lesson of this thread is that lot of people still >> have dialups or even don't have stable Internet connection at all - or >> it is very costly (there are countries were they still pay about local >> traffic too, in Mb/$n). It would rock that Ubuntu/Cannonical could >> offer them some help - even for fee. >> >> Just my two euro cents, >> Peter. >> > > Lots of old computers have only CD drives, no DVD drive. That's bitten > me at least three times, back when I was installing Fedora instead of > Ubuntu for people, and the computer wouldn't read the disc! > So this corner case would be that user: a) doesn't have DVD reader; b) doesn't have good Internet connection; So only solution to such scenario is multi disc installation, two disc with most important software from 'main' and third for translation stuff, for example. As far as I know it wouldn't require Earth shattering changes in code to allow this (Just have correct /etc/apt/sources.list and preloaded package list). Question is - do Ubuntu community has resources to help such users? Maybe someone has already started blueprint according to this problem? Anyway, I agree that there is lot of such users in the world and in long term Ubuntu and it's ecosystem would only benefit of having solution of installing/upgrading Ubuntu via offline means. Another my two cents, Peter. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Dotan Cohen wrote: > 2008/12/29 Peteris Krisjanis : > >> Cost of printing DVD is equal of CDs (as far as I know), so I think >> the right way to solve this is to offer to buy or order for free (like >> ship it) DVD instead of CD (but leaving CD also as a choice). Also I >> would suggest to have monthly or three-monthly CDs with updates for >> main (which could be commercial offering) so users who just want to up >> to date their systems can get it, throw it in, read some legal yada >> yada yada, click agree, enter their password (if they're admins) and >> vola, their system get's updated. >> >> More or less harsh lesson of this thread is that lot of people still >> have dialups or even don't have stable Internet connection at all - or >> it is very costly (there are countries were they still pay about local >> traffic too, in Mb/$n). It would rock that Ubuntu/Cannonical could >> offer them some help - even for fee. >> >> Just my two euro cents, >> Peter. >> >> > > Lots of old computers have only CD drives, no DVD drive. That's bitten > me at least three times, back when I was installing Fedora instead of > Ubuntu for people, and the computer wouldn't read the disc! > > In such a scenario we can have an option of CD or DVD when we order via shipit. -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/29 Peteris Krisjanis : > Cost of printing DVD is equal of CDs (as far as I know), so I think > the right way to solve this is to offer to buy or order for free (like > ship it) DVD instead of CD (but leaving CD also as a choice). Also I > would suggest to have monthly or three-monthly CDs with updates for > main (which could be commercial offering) so users who just want to up > to date their systems can get it, throw it in, read some legal yada > yada yada, click agree, enter their password (if they're admins) and > vola, their system get's updated. > > More or less harsh lesson of this thread is that lot of people still > have dialups or even don't have stable Internet connection at all - or > it is very costly (there are countries were they still pay about local > traffic too, in Mb/$n). It would rock that Ubuntu/Cannonical could > offer them some help - even for fee. > > Just my two euro cents, > Peter. > Lots of old computers have only CD drives, no DVD drive. That's bitten me at least three times, back when I was installing Fedora instead of Ubuntu for people, and the computer wouldn't read the disc! -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
> > With respect of the cost of pressed CDs vs DVDs for shipit, I don't know > how much they cost. However, some newspapers in the UK give away DVDs > with their newspapers, of course they may be advertising subsidized to > offset the cost. > Cost of printing DVD is equal of CDs (as far as I know), so I think the right way to solve this is to offer to buy or order for free (like ship it) DVD instead of CD (but leaving CD also as a choice). Also I would suggest to have monthly or three-monthly CDs with updates for main (which could be commercial offering) so users who just want to up to date their systems can get it, throw it in, read some legal yada yada yada, click agree, enter their password (if they're admins) and vola, their system get's updated. More or less harsh lesson of this thread is that lot of people still have dialups or even don't have stable Internet connection at all - or it is very costly (there are countries were they still pay about local traffic too, in Mb/$n). It would rock that Ubuntu/Cannonical could offer them some help - even for fee. Just my two euro cents, Peter. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sun, 2008-12-28 at 12:03 +0100, Markus Hitter wrote: > Am 28.12.2008 um 07:49 schrieb Chris Cheney: > > > Thus it would take a very long time to download for a large > > percentage of the world. Although perhaps this is not as big an > > issue since many places have a bandwidth cap as well so people > > wouldn't be downloading the image in the first place? > > > You propose to intentionally get rid of a significant number of > users? Hmm. > > For me, the limited size of the CD is one of the great features of > Ubuntu as it not only allows a reasonable quick download, but > obviously stops Ubuntu from bloating as well. > > > MarKus Well this discussion did start out due to the fact that the install CD currently needs an internet connection to install language packs since they don't fit on the cd. Which brought up the issue of installing them over an internet connection which in many countries is prohibitively expensive. So going to a default DVD release could possibly alleviate this issue, assuming that the users in those countries could get access to the DVDs via shipit or some other means. Of course they couldn't download the DVD image for the same reason they can't download updates and language packs today, that is their internet connection is too limited and expensive. With respect of the cost of pressed CDs vs DVDs for shipit, I don't know how much they cost. However, some newspapers in the UK give away DVDs with their newspapers, of course they may be advertising subsidized to offset the cost. Chris -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Chris wrote: > Remember the free ship-it program though! > (It takes forever to get my CDs though, and I'm in FL!) > I don't think they ship outside the US though... It shipped me the CD to one of the interior part of India in 5 weeks and a coastal region in 3 weeks. SHIPIT rocks! -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/28 Chris : > Do you think if Ubuntu did go to DVD format, will shipit still, ship? > How much shit will shipit ship, if shipit still ships shit? -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/28 Chris : > Remember the free ship-it program though! > (It takes forever to get my CDs though, and I'm in FL!) > I don't think they ship outside the US though... > They shipped to me in Israel. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > On Sat, 2008-12-27 at 13:30 +, richard wrote: >> On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 08:30:52 + >> Ian Lynch wrote: >> >> Big snip and a merry Christmas to you all. >> I've been watching this thread and the one thing that has been missed >> and it doesn't matter what the Intelligence of the user is like. >> >> But if some one gives you a CD saying this is a complete distro, surely >> no matter how thicK you are you must realise that a complete distro can >> not fit on a 700Mb CD, > > Maybe it's because my first distro was Damn Small Linux, but yes, I *DO* > expect the whole distro to fit on one CD. At least the main system. > Sure, Debian's got 20 CDs, but only the first one is actually needed. I > find it insane that Fedora requires 6 CDs! More specifically, Ubuntu does fit on a single CD, except for language packs, which presumably Peter (as an English speaker) doesn't need. AFAICT, the main issue is updates, which have everything to do with release time and almost nothing to do with space. -- John C. McCabe-Dansted PhD Student University of Western Australia -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sun, 2008-12-28 at 12:03 +0100, Markus Hitter wrote: > Am 28.12.2008 um 07:49 schrieb Chris Cheney: > > > Thus it would take a very long time to download for a large > > percentage of the world. Although perhaps this is not as big an > > issue since many places have a bandwidth cap as well so people > > wouldn't be downloading the image in the first place? > > > You propose to intentionally get rid of a significant number of > users? Hmm. > > For me, the limited size of the CD is one of the great features of > Ubuntu as it not only allows a reasonable quick download, but > obviously stops Ubuntu from bloating as well. Maybe there should be more than one distribution method to suit different markets. CD - minimum subset DVD - full working with all the most popular apps pre-installed Solid state - full installation with everything anyone is likely to need Charge for the Solid State device with the aim to generate revenue to cover the general cost of having 3 rather than one option. Bigger market happier customers and pays for itself. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Am 28.12.2008 um 07:49 schrieb Chris Cheney: > Thus it would take a very long time to download for a large > percentage of the world. Although perhaps this is not as big an > issue since many places have a bandwidth cap as well so people > wouldn't be downloading the image in the first place? You propose to intentionally get rid of a significant number of users? Hmm. For me, the limited size of the CD is one of the great features of Ubuntu as it not only allows a reasonable quick download, but obviously stops Ubuntu from bloating as well. MarKus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 03:03:39AM -0500, Chris wrote: > Remember the free ship-it program though! > (It takes forever to get my CDs though, and I'm in FL!) > I don't think they ship outside the US though... Happily ships to me in the UK (from the Netherlands or Germany, can never remember which, and never keep the packaging!) signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Do you think if Ubuntu did go to DVD format, will shipit still, ship? On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 3:15 AM, Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > On Sun, 2008-12-28 at 03:03 -0500, Chris wrote: > > Remember the free ship-it program though! > > (It takes forever to get my CDs though, and I'm in FL!) > > I don't think they ship outside the US though... > > Er...don't they ship from Denmark? > > -- > Mackenzie Morgan > http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com > apt-get moo > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sun, 2008-12-28 at 03:03 -0500, Chris wrote: > Remember the free ship-it program though! > (It takes forever to get my CDs though, and I'm in FL!) > I don't think they ship outside the US though... Er...don't they ship from Denmark? -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Remember the free ship-it program though! (It takes forever to get my CDs though, and I'm in FL!) I don't think they ship outside the US though... On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 1:49 AM, Chris Cheney wrote: > On Sat, 2008-12-27 at 16:47 +, richard wrote: > <-snip-> > > He knows that if he buys a copy of windows 1 CD maybe 2 > <-snip-> > > Windows is a DVD now > MacOS is a DVD as well > > Perhaps its time to move the default Ubuntu release to a DVD also. ;-) > If I remember correctly the main reason it hasn't been so far is due to > distribution issues as a DVD is 4.5GiB vs 700MiB for a CD. Thus it would > take a very long time to download for a large percentage of the world. > Although perhaps this is not as big an issue since many places have a > bandwidth cap as well so people wouldn't be downloading the image in the > first place? > > Chris > > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sat, 2008-12-27 at 16:47 +, richard wrote: <-snip-> > He knows that if he buys a copy of windows 1 CD maybe 2 <-snip-> Windows is a DVD now MacOS is a DVD as well Perhaps its time to move the default Ubuntu release to a DVD also. ;-) If I remember correctly the main reason it hasn't been so far is due to distribution issues as a DVD is 4.5GiB vs 700MiB for a CD. Thus it would take a very long time to download for a large percentage of the world. Although perhaps this is not as big an issue since many places have a bandwidth cap as well so people wouldn't be downloading the image in the first place? Chris -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sat, 2008-12-27 at 16:47 +, richard wrote: > Mr average user is capable of reading, he/she is reasonably web > literate, their knowledge is a bit greater than their kids. and as > such there is no excuse for not knowing the size and capacity of a CD. /me giggles madly Just what planet are we talking about? Parents knowing more about computers than their kids? Ha! Nomy parents have no idea what the capacity of a CD is, unless your unit of measure is "12 Temptations or 8 AC/DC songs" (of course, CDs from the store are never full). It's the kids, the ones burning mix CDs all the time, that are most likely to know that, and even then, the answer is more likely "19 or 20 songs," not some mega-giga-things. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sat, 2008-12-27 at 13:30 +, richard wrote: > On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 08:30:52 + > Ian Lynch wrote: > > Big snip and a merry Christmas to you all. > I've been watching this thread and the one thing that has been missed > and it doesn't matter what the Intelligence of the user is like. > > But if some one gives you a CD saying this is a complete distro, surely > no matter how thicK you are you must realise that a complete distro can > not fit on a 700Mb CD, Maybe it's because my first distro was Damn Small Linux, but yes, I *DO* expect the whole distro to fit on one CD. At least the main system. Sure, Debian's got 20 CDs, but only the first one is actually needed. I find it insane that Fedora requires 6 CDs! -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:47:39 + richard wrote: > On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:51:41 +0200 > "Dotan Cohen" wrote: > > > 2008/12/27 richard : > > > But if some one gives you a CD saying this is a complete distro, > > > surely no matter how thicK you are you must realise that a > > > complete distro can not fit on a 700Mb CD, therefore there is > > > more to be loaded, and when it sets up the inet connection it > > > should be obvious that is where the additional is coming from. > > > > > > > Apparently your definition of complete differs from the common > > definition. > > > > In any case, go ask the average joe what the storage capacity of a > > CD-R is. Now ask him what size an average Linux distro might be. Now > > ask him if that Linux distro will likely or likely not fit on that > > disk. > > > > Ask a non-geek friend, or relative. Because according to Bug #1, > > that is Ubuntu's target audience. > > > No I think your being far to kind > > OK lets take Mr Joe average, if he's considering linux its because he > fed up with Gatesware. > > He knows that if he buys a copy of windows 1 CD maybe 2 > he knows that if he wants MS Office another CD > He knows that games is another CD/game > everyday apps stuff for the kids etc that's another couple of CDs. > > So Mr average knows by default that the bundle of applications with > Linux is more than one CD. > > > Or are we talking about the bottom end of the human pool of users. > the ones that buy every thing ready loaded from PC *, we it goes wrong > which winders always does, they take it back to the store and their > techguys charge them , what $100 > > and after they have done that a few times they get told and believe > that they need the next version of winders. that how Gates and stores > like PC* survive. the live of the ignorance of their users. > > Mr average user is capable of reading, he/she is reasonably web > literate, their knowledge is a bit greater than their kids. and as > such there is no excuse for not knowing the size and capacity of a CD. > > Look at the ways most linux users were introduced to linux. > By a friend who gave them the install disc , in that case the friend > will assist with install. > By googling around the distro sites, most that find Ubuntu will > realise now that its the only release that's basically free, gratis. > > That may indicate we all have inherited the scrooge gene, the moans > about ISPs charging for additional downloads would indicate some truth > in this. > > If you were going to mail shot the population of any country with > install CDs, then you would have to put a download warning on the > packet, > but as the route they chose to get to linux has been then own, they > are obviously capable of reading and don't need warning that the bulk > of the package has to be downloaded from somewhere. > The other proof of the process of selection of Ubuntu users, is it > has 3 syllables, so we are protected from those who can only manage > two ie. > XP, windows vista and there's more, > > but this is using valuable drinking and eating time at this time of > year > My own questions to the "average joe" that uses Windows is they are somewhat shocked if they can load linux from a single CD! They expect it to be several cd's if it does include an Office suite, Graphics program, games, etc. There is never a second thought that everything might not be on that _one_ CD they can get. Nor is there any thought of having to be online to get all that. Windows needs several CD's, yes, but you put linux on JUST ONE? just my 2 cents (U.S.A.) -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:51:41 +0200 "Dotan Cohen" wrote: > 2008/12/27 richard : > > But if some one gives you a CD saying this is a complete distro, > > surely no matter how thicK you are you must realise that a complete > > distro can not fit on a 700Mb CD, therefore there is more to be > > loaded, and when it sets up the inet connection it should be > > obvious that is where the additional is coming from. > > > > Apparently your definition of complete differs from the common > definition. > > In any case, go ask the average joe what the storage capacity of a > CD-R is. Now ask him what size an average Linux distro might be. Now > ask him if that Linux distro will likely or likely not fit on that > disk. > > Ask a non-geek friend, or relative. Because according to Bug #1, that > is Ubuntu's target audience. > No I think your being far to kind OK lets take Mr Joe average, if he's considering linux its because he fed up with Gatesware. He knows that if he buys a copy of windows 1 CD maybe 2 he knows that if he wants MS Office another CD He knows that games is another CD/game everyday apps stuff for the kids etc that's another couple of CDs. So Mr average knows by default that the bundle of applications with Linux is more than one CD. Or are we talking about the bottom end of the human pool of users. the ones that buy every thing ready loaded from PC *, we it goes wrong which winders always does, they take it back to the store and their techguys charge them , what $100 and after they have done that a few times they get told and believe that they need the next version of winders. that how Gates and stores like PC* survive. the live of the ignorance of their users. Mr average user is capable of reading, he/she is reasonably web literate, their knowledge is a bit greater than their kids. and as such there is no excuse for not knowing the size and capacity of a CD. Look at the ways most linux users were introduced to linux. By a friend who gave them the install disc , in that case the friend will assist with install. By googling around the distro sites, most that find Ubuntu will realise now that its the only release that's basically free, gratis. That may indicate we all have inherited the scrooge gene, the moans about ISPs charging for additional downloads would indicate some truth in this. If you were going to mail shot the population of any country with install CDs, then you would have to put a download warning on the packet, but as the route they chose to get to linux has been then own, they are obviously capable of reading and don't need warning that the bulk of the package has to be downloaded from somewhere. The other proof of the process of selection of Ubuntu users, is it has 3 syllables, so we are protected from those who can only manage two ie. XP, windows vista and there's more, but this is using valuable drinking and eating time at this time of year -- Best wishes Richard Bown # Registered Linux User 36561 OS: Ubuntu 8.10, Intrepid, on AMD Dual Athlon 64 +4400: 8 GB RAM DDR2 Ham Call: G8JVM , QRA IO82SP, Interests Microwave # -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
nergar ha scritto: > This is getting out of proportion. Ubuntu should NOT ask if it is ok to > get updates. We are trying to run a "Linux for human beings" distro and > if we start taking steps in this direction, we might as well ask for > permission to connect when opening firefox. The last thing we need are > more dialogs to confuse/annoy users. > > Another thing to take into account is, Linux is about CHOICES. If anyone > feels like a control freak they should be using Arch or Gentoo or any > other distro that will fit them better. > > We have more important things to worry about, like stability. Ubuntu has > become very unstable lately. > Ubuntu works very well even if it cannot connect to the internet so "human beings" will not be harmed by being offered such a choice. OTOH, I think that ubuntu should be a model of usability and security w.r.t. the other distributions. Currently it already is, because no service is installed by default, for example, or because user are required a password by default, and passwords are saved in gnome-keyring by default. In a very elegant way. Why not being also a model of respect of the users privacy, and manifest clearly to them that the new installation is going to connect to the internet? Is just a checkbox but it says to new users "you are approaching free software, and as a result, you get transparency". V. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/27 Nils Kassube : > OK, the answers above are made-up but I think they match the audience in > question. > ++Nils -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Dotan Cohen wrote: > 2008/12/27 richard : > > But if some one gives you a CD saying this is a complete distro, > > surely no matter how thicK you are you must realise that a complete > > distro can not fit on a 700Mb CD, therefore there is more to be > > loaded, and when it sets up the inet connection it should be obvious > > that is where the additional is coming from. > > Apparently your definition of complete differs from the common > definition. > > In any case, go ask the average joe what the storage capacity of a > CD-R is. CD-what? > Now ask him what size an average Linux distro might be. Now > ask him if that Linux distro will likely or likely not fit on that > disk. No idea how much but my Windows XP operating system comes on a single CD. So yes, Linux must fit on a single CD because all those Linux zealots claim that it is much lighter than Windows. > Ask a non-geek friend, or relative. Because according to Bug #1, that > is Ubuntu's target audience. OK, the answers above are made-up but I think they match the audience in question. Nils -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/27 richard : > But if some one gives you a CD saying this is a complete distro, surely > no matter how thicK you are you must realise that a complete distro can > not fit on a 700Mb CD, therefore there is more to be loaded, and when > it sets up the inet connection it should be obvious that is where the > additional is coming from. > Apparently your definition of complete differs from the common definition. In any case, go ask the average joe what the storage capacity of a CD-R is. Now ask him what size an average Linux distro might be. Now ask him if that Linux distro will likely or likely not fit on that disk. Ask a non-geek friend, or relative. Because according to Bug #1, that is Ubuntu's target audience. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Ian Lynch wrote: > > Depends on whether you are talking about people on this list or an > average user. I bet 90% of computer users would not know what would and > would not fit on a CD. > +1 Not everyone is tech-savvy, additionally Ubuntu was never meant *only* for tech-savvy people, its Linux for Human Beings... -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Sat, 2008-12-27 at 13:30 +, richard wrote: > On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 08:30:52 + > Ian Lynch wrote: > > Big snip and a merry Christmas to you all. > I've been watching this thread and the one thing that has been missed > and it doesn't matter what the Intelligence of the user is like. > > But if some one gives you a CD saying this is a complete distro, surely > no matter how thicK you are you must realise that a complete distro can > not fit on a 700Mb CD, Depends on whether you are talking about people on this list or an average user. I bet 90% of computer users would not know what would and would not fit on a CD. > therefore there is more to be loaded, and when > it sets up the inet connection it should be obvious that is where the > additional is coming from. > > Had the the person have been given a DVD and told this is a complete > distro, then maybe there might be an excuse for winging about > additional downloads > > Maybe a case for having a DVD release so that those without broadband > can install the complete ish distro, but there will always be a need to > get updates Perhaps USB key releases should be considered. I can see a time when all discs are obsolete and only solid state will be used because it is cheap quick and convenient. Since 16 Gb pendrives are available for £20 its probably possible to include most of the download archives on a single stick and that might well be less expensive than the internet connection in some parts of the world. I'd consider paying £25 for something like this just for the convenience of having everything in a USB. Nice to hear from you Richard :-) Merry Christmas. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 08:30:52 + Ian Lynch wrote: Big snip and a merry Christmas to you all. I've been watching this thread and the one thing that has been missed and it doesn't matter what the Intelligence of the user is like. But if some one gives you a CD saying this is a complete distro, surely no matter how thicK you are you must realise that a complete distro can not fit on a 700Mb CD, therefore there is more to be loaded, and when it sets up the inet connection it should be obvious that is where the additional is coming from. Had the the person have been given a DVD and told this is a complete distro, then maybe there might be an excuse for winging about additional downloads Maybe a case for having a DVD release so that those without broadband can install the complete ish distro, but there will always be a need to get updates -- Best wishes for the New year Richard Bown # Registered Linux User 36561 OS: Ubuntu 8.10, Intrepid, on AMD Dual Athlon 64 +4400: 8 GB RAM DDR2 Ham Call: G8JVM , QRA IO82SP, Interests Microwave # -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/27 Manish Sinha : > Yesterday I installed Intrepid on my desktop. I plugged out all network > cables before installing and was hoping to get an error box or a hanged > screen at 82%. Guess what happened? The installer just skipped the step > and didn't stop at 82%. I felt really happy with this attitude. Maybe it > probed the interfaces and found no active internet connection. > That is good because if there _is_ a network connection but the mirrors are slow, the installer hangs. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Remco wrote: > Come to think of it, what happens with the current installer if a user > chooses such a language without an internet connection? Will it just > hang? Will it install software without a language? > > Yesterday I installed Intrepid on my desktop. I plugged out all network cables before installing and was hoping to get an error box or a hanged screen at 82%. Guess what happened? The installer just skipped the step and didn't stop at 82%. I felt really happy with this attitude. Maybe it probed the interfaces and found no active internet connection. -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Fri, 2008-12-26 at 01:43 -0600, nergar wrote: > YES, we should disable OS updates by default for "n00bs" just because a > paranoid user made a comment. Very intelligent. Watch your attitude, please. Nobody suggested that. They're saying it should default to installing security updates and language packs from the internet, but there should be an option to not connect to the internet for those things. Some say it should be in the Advanced dialog at the end. Others say to put it on the Language screen. And this isn't all about paranoia. It's about consent. People have different reasons not to consent to internet connection attempts. Some have suggested the fact that the user can't really tell why it's connecting. Others are pointing out the fact that not everyone lives in the US where we (mostly) lack download caps. Both are valid reasons. They're talking about disabling security updates *during* install, not after. Though in case you haven't noticed, security updates are NOT automatically installed in Ubuntu. Instead there's an icon telling the user that they are available, but ultimately giving the user the choice. How you misinterpreted the entire thread into THAT comment, I have no idea. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Completely agree with you. On my EX linux network I made a server (under rsync and apache) for upgrading. in the meanwhile (changing conf files) I can't lose bandwith because every client try to update from internet. THIS IS NOT GOOD. not everyone has an ADSL connection, but so many uses synaptic to create an "update script" for downloading upgrades one times only and share between clients. Another point. So many people PAY for them ADSL connection every MB sent/received, and they might don't like to spent money for updates! And the last point. Now I'm writing with my GPRS modem connection. So REALLY I DON'T LIKE TO LOSE BANDWITH IN UPDATES. In 15 days my ADSL will be back, and I will update my system. So please, let the user know if HIS system is going to get updates from internet. This is a useful system, but people should know if they really want it! (and another point, I promise, this is the last one) If I get updates when 'mI installing my ubuntu, how many *YEARS* the installation took in my 56k connection? I use ubuntu because I can install my system in 20 minutes, and update when I'm working on it. So, this is not a bad thing, in my opinion people should only MAKE THEM CHOICES!!! Ubuntu system should ask them!!! Best regards and have a nice year to everyone! Gianfranco Da: Manish Sinha A: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Inviato: Venerdì 26 dicembre 2008, 8:31:58 Oggetto: Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user nergar wrote: > If such a thing is implemented, it should be checked by default and > hidden in the Advanced settings dialog. Unexperienced users should get > security updates by default. > > Sounds like "Windows Update" which is enabled by default, it even quietly connects to the internet in the background, downloads security and other updates without my consent. Eats up my precious bandwidth when I can get those updates via CD from another computer. If its in the Advanced settings, then the whole aim of providing this checkbox is defeated. In such a case only advanced users can know about it. If this checkbox is for advanced users, then no need of putting this checkbox as advanced users can simply pull off their internet cables during installation. This feature was aimed for n00bs who don't know much about ubuntu/linux and bandwidth is also precious for them. Does hiding the checkbox in "Advanced Settings" serve any purpose? BTW some people said earlier in this topic itself, that installer download language packs for internationalization support. It does not fit into security updates, then why not put this checkbox is a clearly visible place but keep it checked by default. -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Remco wrote: > The only things that Ubiquity gets from the internet, are certain > language packs. So let's make it really easy: if such a language is > chosen, a message will appear (not a popup, but a message at the > bottom of the screen) that reads "You need an internet connection to > install this language.". > > Remco > Come to think of it, what happens with the current installer if a user chooses such a language without an internet connection? Will it just hang? Will it install software without a language? Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
The only things that Ubiquity gets from the internet, are certain language packs. So let's make it really easy: if such a language is chosen, a message will appear (not a popup, but a message at the bottom of the screen) that reads "You need an internet connection to install this language.". Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
nergar wrote: > Tim Hawkins wrote: >> Connecting and transferring data online during an offline media install >> is not an expected activity, > > No? why not? Its just getting updates!> exactly! it is the kind of >> "phone home" activity that is derided of other OS's such as Microsoft >> windows. you just get done watching 1984 or what?? theres no conspiracy theory going on here. updates are updates and every linux distro ive used does the same thing, what are you going to do change them ALL? -- Steve Reilly http://reillyblog.com Happy Holidays to all -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 08:55:42AM +0100, Milosz Derezynski wrote: > On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:43 AM, nergar wrote: > > > YES, we should disable OS updates by default for "n00bs" just because a > > paranoid user made a comment. Very intelligent. > > > > > Now you're being paranoid. > > No one said something about disabling it by default, it's merely about > bringing it > to the user's attention that it will happen, and, since it's useful in some > cases (because > of internet traffic limitations), and prudent in others (because people are > wary of installers > doing any kind of connection attempt), also give the option to disable it. > > Like I said, a formality, nothing to deep. > > I think it became more than clear in the course > of this thread that the majority of people are *FOR* such a change. How can you speak for the majority of people? only a small subsection of users are available on this list signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/26 Manish Sinha : > Sorry, I don't agree. If network cable being plugged in means consent, then > what is the difference between installer and a malware? > From the user's point of view, there is no difference. Since when has malware made it clear that it is malicious? That was a rather naive comment! -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/26 nergar : > If such a thing is implemented, it should be checked by default and > hidden in the Advanced settings dialog. Unexperienced users should get > security updates by default. > 1) The installer is not getting security updates, it is getting language packs. 2) Otherwise agreed. It should be in an advanced dialog, checked by default. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/26 nergar : > This is getting out of proportion. Ubuntu should NOT ask if it is ok to > get updates. We are trying to run a "Linux for human beings" distro and > if we start taking steps in this direction, we might as well ask for > permission to connect when opening firefox. The last thing we need are > more dialogs to confuse/annoy users. > > Another thing to take into account is, Linux is about CHOICES. If anyone > feels like a control freak they should be using Arch or Gentoo or any > other distro that will fit them better. > This is probably why Vinceto's checkmark idea is best. It could be an option in the 'advanced' dialog at the end of the installer. > We have more important things to worry about, like stability. Ubuntu has > become very unstable lately. > What is unstable? Ubuntu is now a mature distro, and decisions like these are the bane of any mature software. The solution is sensible defaults, easy configurations, and advanced option dialogs. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote: > > Agreed. Our only difference of opinion is whether or not a concerned > user should take a bit of responsibility himself. > Yes, but saying "We could offer you the option, but simply won't, so instead you have to pull the cable" is not the nicest thing to say. I think what you are trying to say is that the user should have a heightened awareness regarding what the installer might do above the "just letting the installer do whatever it does". Requiring physical action from the user when it can be solved with a (sensible at that) option in the installer definitely is not good. I'm sure though that you are not trying to imply "After all the installer could be doing something to the network which isn't even part of the updates, so the user better plug the cable", because I really wouldn't want to debate such a stance. -- Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. [Bitte beachten Sie, dass dem Gesetz zur Vorratsdatenspeicherung zufolge jeder elektronische Kontakt mit mir sechs Monate lang gespeichert wird.] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/26 HggdH : > Le Thursday 25 December 2008 à 22:40 +0200, Dotan Cohen a écrit : >> 2008/12/25 Manish Sinha : >> > I again repeat the above line since bandwidth is one of the two main >> > issues, first being the installer connecting to the internet without >> > user's consent. >> > >> >> Having the network cable plugged in implies consent. If you don't want >> you computer connecting to a network, then don't plug it in. I have >> lived in areas of limited and expensive bandwidth, and even for a >> desktop with the network cable under the desk, it seemed common sense >> that so long as it was plugged in, something would try to connect. > > Sorry, you are generalising from your own perceptions. The original > complaint was clearly set against going out into the wild Internet > without asking first (and, , downloading other/new programmes). > > I agree with it. If I have a full CD with Ubuntu, I do not expect it to > get into the Internet without telling me first, no matter what. > I also agree that the original complaint was valid. However, if it is so important to the user that the computer not connect to the network, then he could be a little responsible himself and pull the cable. That is what I did when I lived in an area of expensive bandwidth, and it is what I would do if I were worried about security / remaining anonymous. > If being connected is what it takes to get out, then warn/suggest the > user to disconnect if no such contact is wanted. But never expect > *implicit*, *implied*, consents to have been given. > I agree with this as well. However, like I said, to those whom the issue is critical there is a more secure solution. Your solution assumes well-behaved applications. Not all apps are, and those worried should take that into account. > The fact that something will try to connect if a connection is available > is the root of the problem. The default should be *NO* connection unless > explicitly allowed, be it out or in. > Agreed. Our only difference of opinion is whether or not a concerned user should take a bit of responsibility himself. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Fri, 2008-12-26 at 12:50 +0530, Manish Sinha wrote: > Now you missed out the second point of this discussion. People should > know that their internet connection is going to be used. Why? bandwidth > is costly in many parts of the world esp developing countries. A few > MB's also means a lot. On my internet connection I am charged approx > 2USD for every 100MB I download beyond the monthly cap. So there needs to be a way of switching off updates that is a little more elegant than physically disconnecting from the internet. Why not the first time an update happens a pop up with an explanation of why and an option never to show this again? On the menu list from the network icon have a switch on/off auto update button. Give users control but inform and educate them. Human beings are far more effective if educated, the real skill is to be able to do that without appearing patronising or obtrusive. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Milosz Derezynski wrote: > > No one said something about disabling it by default, it's merely about > bringing it > to the user's attention that it will happen, and, since it's useful in > some cases (because > of internet traffic limitations), and prudent in others (because > people are wary of installers > doing any kind of connection attempt), also give the option to disable it. > > +1 I agree completely. > > I think it became more than clear in the course > of this thread that the majority of people are *FOR* such a change. It should be conveyed to the ubiquity developers gracefully. They have really done a great job and Ubuntu's installer is the best of all distros. I have no qualms if they take their time to implement it, no matter if it doesn't come up in Jaunty. But it should be surely given a consideration after Jaunty. -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
nergar wrote: > YES, we should disable OS updates by default for "n00bs" just because > a paranoid user made a comment. Very intelligent. Disable updates? Who said so? I agree that Peter Henderson went too far and dumped Ubuntu, but I agree that downloading updates needs a consent and the checkbox should be clearly visible. I never said to disable updates. Doesn't *Update Manager* ask you to download updates or does it all by itself? A prompt box may block the installation process, so a checkbox before installation starts is a good method. No-one is asking to disable updates, no one is asking to switch over to Arch, Ubuntu is for *Human Beings* , so it should respect them and ask before making this big step to connect to the internet. The question of disabling updates was never in scene, I checked out the entire thread, no one made this request or you mistook anyone request. -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Thu, 2008-12-25 at 23:29 -0600, nergar wrote: > This is getting out of proportion. Ubuntu should NOT ask if it is ok to > get updates. We are trying to run a "Linux for human beings" distro and > if we start taking steps in this direction, we might as well ask for > permission to connect when opening firefox. The last thing we need are > more dialogs to confuse/annoy users. > > Another thing to take into account is, Linux is about CHOICES. If anyone > feels like a control freak they should be using Arch or Gentoo or any > other distro that will fit them better. > > We have more important things to worry about, like stability. Ubuntu has > become very unstable lately. Can't say I have noticed a vast issue with stability, but I agree that careful consideration of the target market is needed. What is the biggest user group/potential user group and does a change work well for this group or not? I'm not a Linux guru but I have programing experience and still find some things (eg trying to get screen brightness to work on an IBM thinkpad) well beyond what any ordinary user could do. Successful companies in competitive markets focus on customer needs and none of them can please all the people all of the time. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications A new approach to assessment for learning www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:43 AM, nergar wrote: > YES, we should disable OS updates by default for "n00bs" just because a > paranoid user made a comment. Very intelligent. > Now you're being paranoid. No one said something about disabling it by default, it's merely about bringing it to the user's attention that it will happen, and, since it's useful in some cases (because of internet traffic limitations), and prudent in others (because people are wary of installers doing any kind of connection attempt), also give the option to disable it. Like I said, a formality, nothing to deep. I think it became more than clear in the course of this thread that the majority of people are *FOR* such a change. -- Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. [Bitte beachten Sie, dass dem Gesetz zur Vorratsdatenspeicherung zufolge jeder elektronische Kontakt mit mir sechs Monate lang gespeichert wird.] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
YES, we should disable OS updates by default for "n00bs" just because a paranoid user made a comment. Very intelligent. Manish Sinha wrote: > nergar wrote: >> If such a thing is implemented, it should be checked by default and >> hidden in the Advanced settings dialog. Unexperienced users should get >> security updates by default. >> >> > Sounds like "Windows Update" which is enabled by default, it even > quietly connects to the internet in the background, downloads security > and other updates without my consent. Eats up my precious bandwidth when > I can get those updates via CD from another computer. > > If its in the Advanced settings, then the whole aim of providing this > checkbox is defeated. In such a case only advanced users can know about > it. If this checkbox is for advanced users, then no need of putting this > checkbox as advanced users can simply pull off their internet cables > during installation. > > This feature was aimed for n00bs who don't know much about ubuntu/linux > and bandwidth is also precious for them. Does hiding the checkbox in > "Advanced Settings" serve any purpose? > > BTW some people said earlier in this topic itself, that installer > download language packs for internationalization support. It does not > fit into security updates, then why not put this checkbox is a clearly > visible place but keep it checked by default. > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:35 AM, nergar wrote: > > Tim Hawkins wrote: > > Connecting and transferring data online during an offline media install > > is not an expected activity, > > No? why not? Its just getting updates! > It doesn't really matter what "it" *is* "just" doing, what (only) matters in this case is the user's perception. I would still say that the thread starter's position is really somewhat in excess in the way he describes it, but i will *fully* agree with the issue, that connecting for updates should be given consent to first. It's merely a formality, but a not unimportant one at that. BTW when starting Firefox you know what you are doing because you are starting it and know it's going online; there might be people who don't but those probably won't be installing an OS either, and if they do, why not warn even these people about a connection attempt anyway? Ubiquity is the first contact of users with their OS of choice (apparently so, since they are installing it), and the first impression should be only the best. -- Please note that according to the German law on data retention, information on every electronic information exchange with me is retained for a period of six months. [Bitte beachten Sie, dass dem Gesetz zur Vorratsdatenspeicherung zufolge jeder elektronische Kontakt mit mir sechs Monate lang gespeichert wird.] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
nergar wrote: > If such a thing is implemented, it should be checked by default and > hidden in the Advanced settings dialog. Unexperienced users should get > security updates by default. > > Sounds like "Windows Update" which is enabled by default, it even quietly connects to the internet in the background, downloads security and other updates without my consent. Eats up my precious bandwidth when I can get those updates via CD from another computer. If its in the Advanced settings, then the whole aim of providing this checkbox is defeated. In such a case only advanced users can know about it. If this checkbox is for advanced users, then no need of putting this checkbox as advanced users can simply pull off their internet cables during installation. This feature was aimed for n00bs who don't know much about ubuntu/linux and bandwidth is also precious for them. Does hiding the checkbox in "Advanced Settings" serve any purpose? BTW some people said earlier in this topic itself, that installer download language packs for internationalization support. It does not fit into security updates, then why not put this checkbox is a clearly visible place but keep it checked by default. -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Chris wrote: > When Ubuntu first starts up, a GNOME notification pop up that you are > connected to the Internet, so you should assume that there's going to > be downloading involved. How can one assume that connecting to the internet implicitly means *downloading involved* ? When one has an installer CD, then by default one thinks that most of the packages will be in the CD. Is internet connection meant only for downloading packages? Then how can we assume the above? -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
nergar wrote: > This is getting out of proportion. Ubuntu should NOT ask if it is ok to > get updates. We are trying to run a "Linux for human beings" distro and > if we start taking steps in this direction, we might as well ask for > permission to connect when opening firefox. The last thing we need are > more dialogs to confuse/annoy users. > > Another thing to take into account is, Linux is about CHOICES. If anyone > feels like a control freak they should be using Arch or Gentoo or any > other distro that will fit them better. > > We have more important things to worry about, like stability. Ubuntu has > become very unstable lately. > Now you missed out the second point of this discussion. People should know that their internet connection is going to be used. Why? bandwidth is costly in many parts of the world esp developing countries. A few MB's also means a lot. On my internet connection I am charged approx 2USD for every 100MB I download beyond the monthly cap. -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Dotan Cohen wrote: > 2008/12/25 Manish Sinha : > >> I again repeat the above line since bandwidth is one of the two main >> issues, first being the installer connecting to the internet without >> user's consent. >> >> > > Having the network cable plugged in implies consent. If you don't want > you computer connecting to a network, then don't plug it in. I have > lived in areas of limited and expensive bandwidth, and even for a > desktop with the network cable under the desk, it seemed common sense > that so long as it was plugged in, something would try to connect. > > Sorry, I don't agree. If network cable being plugged in means consent, then what is the difference between installer and a malware? -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
If such a thing is implemented, it should be checked by default and hidden in the Advanced settings dialog. Unexperienced users should get security updates by default. Chris wrote: > I agree that a checkbox should be implemented. > Think it'll be ready in Jaunty? =P > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Tim Hawkins wrote: > Connecting and transferring data online during an offline media install > is not an expected activity, No? why not? Its just getting updates! it is the kind of > "phone home" activity that is derided of other OS's such as Microsoft > windows. I think the problem with Microsoft's OS is not the fact that "phones home" but the information it sends when it does. It is especially > bad given that the user does not know its going to happen, and does not > know why it is happening. > > Installing a new operating system is a trust activity, if the OS starts > doing things you don't expect it damages that trust. Right at > the time when the users first impressions are being formed. > > If i use a netboot install, i expect it to access the net, if I install > from a CD I expect it to install from the media I designated, the CD. > > I do not expect it to access the net with out informing me what or why > it is doing it. > > Just my 2cents. > > On 26 Dec 2008, at 05:29, nergar wrote: > >> This is getting out of proportion. Ubuntu should NOT ask if it is ok to >> get updates. We are trying to run a "Linux for human beings" distro and >> if we start taking steps in this direction, we might as well ask for >> permission to connect when opening firefox. The last thing we need are >> more dialogs to confuse/annoy users. >> >> Another thing to take into account is, Linux is about CHOICES. If anyone >> feels like a control freak they should be using Arch or Gentoo or any >> other distro that will fit them better. >> >> We have more important things to worry about, like stability. Ubuntu has >> become very unstable lately. >> >> HggdH wrote: >>> Le Thursday 25 December 2008 à 22:40 +0200, Dotan Cohen a écrit : 2008/12/25 Manish Sinha : > I again repeat the above line since bandwidth is one of the two main > issues, first being the installer connecting to the internet without > user's consent. > Having the network cable plugged in implies consent. If you don't want you computer connecting to a network, then don't plug it in. I have lived in areas of limited and expensive bandwidth, and even for a desktop with the network cable under the desk, it seemed common sense that so long as it was plugged in, something would try to connect. >>> >>> Sorry, you are generalising from your own perceptions. The original >>> complaint was clearly set against going out into the wild Internet >>> without asking first (and, , downloading other/new programmes). >>> >>> I agree with it. If I have a full CD with Ubuntu, I do not expect it to >>> get into the Internet without telling me first, no matter what. >>> >>> If being connected is what it takes to get out, then warn/suggest the >>> user to disconnect if no such contact is wanted. But never expect >>> *implicit*, *implied*, consents to have been given. >>> >>> The fact that something will try to connect if a connection is available >>> is the root of the problem. The default should be *NO* connection unless >>> explicitly allowed, be it out or in. >>> >> >> -- >> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list >> Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > Come on! its the year 2008 and it is called the internet!! The installation is only trying to get security updates. I can't believe there is people actually complaining about SECURITY UPDATES. Ubuntu is not a nanny. And as I said before, if Ubuntu doesn't fits you, try something else. It's impossible to make everyone happy. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
I agree that a checkbox should be implemented. Think it'll be ready in Jaunty? =P -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
When Ubuntu first starts up, a GNOME notification pop up that you are connected to the Internet, so you should assume that there's going to be downloading involved. On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 9:55 PM, HggdH wrote: > Le Thursday 25 December 2008 à 22:40 +0200, Dotan Cohen a écrit : > > 2008/12/25 Manish Sinha : > > > I again repeat the above line since bandwidth is one of the two main > > > issues, first being the installer connecting to the internet without > > > user's consent. > > > > > > > Having the network cable plugged in implies consent. If you don't want > > you computer connecting to a network, then don't plug it in. I have > > lived in areas of limited and expensive bandwidth, and even for a > > desktop with the network cable under the desk, it seemed common sense > > that so long as it was plugged in, something would try to connect. > > Sorry, you are generalising from your own perceptions. The original > complaint was clearly set against going out into the wild Internet > without asking first (and, , downloading other/new programmes). > > I agree with it. If I have a full CD with Ubuntu, I do not expect it to > get into the Internet without telling me first, no matter what. > > If being connected is what it takes to get out, then warn/suggest the > user to disconnect if no such contact is wanted. But never expect > *implicit*, *implied*, consents to have been given. > > The fact that something will try to connect if a connection is available > is the root of the problem. The default should be *NO* connection unless > explicitly allowed, be it out or in. > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
This is getting out of proportion. Ubuntu should NOT ask if it is ok to get updates. We are trying to run a "Linux for human beings" distro and if we start taking steps in this direction, we might as well ask for permission to connect when opening firefox. The last thing we need are more dialogs to confuse/annoy users. Another thing to take into account is, Linux is about CHOICES. If anyone feels like a control freak they should be using Arch or Gentoo or any other distro that will fit them better. We have more important things to worry about, like stability. Ubuntu has become very unstable lately. HggdH wrote: > Le Thursday 25 December 2008 à 22:40 +0200, Dotan Cohen a écrit : >> 2008/12/25 Manish Sinha : >>> I again repeat the above line since bandwidth is one of the two main >>> issues, first being the installer connecting to the internet without >>> user's consent. >>> >> Having the network cable plugged in implies consent. If you don't want >> you computer connecting to a network, then don't plug it in. I have >> lived in areas of limited and expensive bandwidth, and even for a >> desktop with the network cable under the desk, it seemed common sense >> that so long as it was plugged in, something would try to connect. > > Sorry, you are generalising from your own perceptions. The original > complaint was clearly set against going out into the wild Internet > without asking first (and, , downloading other/new programmes). > > I agree with it. If I have a full CD with Ubuntu, I do not expect it to > get into the Internet without telling me first, no matter what. > > If being connected is what it takes to get out, then warn/suggest the > user to disconnect if no such contact is wanted. But never expect > *implicit*, *implied*, consents to have been given. > > The fact that something will try to connect if a connection is available > is the root of the problem. The default should be *NO* connection unless > explicitly allowed, be it out or in. > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Le Thursday 25 December 2008 à 22:40 +0200, Dotan Cohen a écrit : > 2008/12/25 Manish Sinha : > > I again repeat the above line since bandwidth is one of the two main > > issues, first being the installer connecting to the internet without > > user's consent. > > > > Having the network cable plugged in implies consent. If you don't want > you computer connecting to a network, then don't plug it in. I have > lived in areas of limited and expensive bandwidth, and even for a > desktop with the network cable under the desk, it seemed common sense > that so long as it was plugged in, something would try to connect. Sorry, you are generalising from your own perceptions. The original complaint was clearly set against going out into the wild Internet without asking first (and, , downloading other/new programmes). I agree with it. If I have a full CD with Ubuntu, I do not expect it to get into the Internet without telling me first, no matter what. If being connected is what it takes to get out, then warn/suggest the user to disconnect if no such contact is wanted. But never expect *implicit*, *implied*, consents to have been given. The fact that something will try to connect if a connection is available is the root of the problem. The default should be *NO* connection unless explicitly allowed, be it out or in. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/25 Manish Sinha : > I again repeat the above line since bandwidth is one of the two main > issues, first being the installer connecting to the internet without > user's consent. > Having the network cable plugged in implies consent. If you don't want you computer connecting to a network, then don't plug it in. I have lived in areas of limited and expensive bandwidth, and even for a desktop with the network cable under the desk, it seemed common sense that so long as it was plugged in, something would try to connect. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > > Well, the checkbox solution seems much better, and it should also be > checked on by default, so that an unexperienced user will get upgrades > and languages without worrying. There should be a "more info" button > that explains the situation to the user, and also tells if the required > language packs for the currently selected language will require network > connection. > One more thing I propose that besides the check box, it should be *very* clearly mentioned that the installer needs to get the packages from the internet, so checking this checkbox means you allow the installer to connect the internet. I again repeat the above line since bandwidth is one of the two main issues, first being the installer connecting to the internet without user's consent. -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/25 Vincenzo Ciancia : > Well, the checkbox solution seems much better, and it should also be checked > on by default, so that an unexperienced user will get upgrades and languages > without worrying. There should be a "more info" button that explains the > situation to the user, and also tells if the required language packs for the > currently selected language will require network connection. > > Perhaps there should be two checkboxes, one to download language packs, > enabled automatically if the language requires download, and one to allow > the system to automatically apt-get update when installed? > > Vincenzo > I'm all for that, add it to the bug report. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Dotan Cohen ha scritto: > 2008/12/25 Dylan McCall : >> Keep in mind that prompting before going online would, with the >> simplest solution, block the installation process and require user >> intevention which is absolutely against how Ubiquity should behave. >> Instead, there would need to be a checkbox in the final setup page to >> "check online for security updates while installing". Getting the UI >> right requires some extra effort; the fix has the potential to destroy >> Ubiquity's charm :) >> >> It isn't quite as simple a solution as it is a problem, although >> definitely in need of fixing. >> >> Bye, >> -Dylan McCall >> > > 1) The prompt could be at the beggining of the install process as the > installer already knows that it will need the language file. > 2) See my comment on the relevant bug, where I suggest that such > languages that need to download files be clearly marked. > Well, the checkbox solution seems much better, and it should also be checked on by default, so that an unexperienced user will get upgrades and languages without worrying. There should be a "more info" button that explains the situation to the user, and also tells if the required language packs for the currently selected language will require network connection. Perhaps there should be two checkboxes, one to download language packs, enabled automatically if the language requires download, and one to allow the system to automatically apt-get update when installed? Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
2008/12/25 Dylan McCall : > Keep in mind that prompting before going online would, with the > simplest solution, block the installation process and require user > intevention which is absolutely against how Ubiquity should behave. > Instead, there would need to be a checkbox in the final setup page to > "check online for security updates while installing". Getting the UI > right requires some extra effort; the fix has the potential to destroy > Ubiquity's charm :) > > It isn't quite as simple a solution as it is a problem, although > definitely in need of fixing. > > Bye, > -Dylan McCall > 1) The prompt could be at the beggining of the install process as the installer already knows that it will need the language file. 2) See my comment on the relevant bug, where I suggest that such languages that need to download files be clearly marked. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Dylan McCall wrote: > Keep in mind that prompting before going online would, with the > simplest solution, block the installation process and require user > intevention which is absolutely against how Ubiquity should behave. > Instead, there would need to be a checkbox in the final setup page to > "check online for security updates while installing". Getting the UI > right requires some extra effort; the fix has the potential to destroy > Ubiquity's charm :) > > It isn't quite as simple a solution as it is a problem, although > definitely in need of fixing. > > This is a better solution. Instead of asking as a prompt box, a checkbox would be a better option. I understand that it's not so easy. I have always appreciated the work of ubiquity developer's work as I find Ubuntu's installer the simplest of all distros and Operating Systems. This small checkbox can solve a lot of woes and lots of grievances too, besides saving costly bandwidth in developing countries. -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenPGP Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Keep in mind that prompting before going online would, with the simplest solution, block the installation process and require user intevention which is absolutely against how Ubiquity should behave. Instead, there would need to be a checkbox in the final setup page to "check online for security updates while installing". Getting the UI right requires some extra effort; the fix has the potential to destroy Ubiquity's charm :) It isn't quite as simple a solution as it is a problem, although definitely in need of fixing. Bye, -Dylan McCall -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Vishal Rao wrote: > Here is a bug I found : > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/294523 > It has been turned into a wishlist and approved too. Hope it gets implemented in coming days.. -- Manish Sinha Personal Blog: http://www.manishsinha.info Tech Blog: http://manishtech.wordpress.com OpenGPG Key: 99E6658F -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Here is a bug I found : https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/294523 I'm not sure if it's appropriate to post "me too" comments asking for it to be a wishlist to have the installer prompt to go online... -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
Sambit Bikas Pal wrote: > This may be insignificant issue to most users, but for people who > have to pay for their bandwidth per MB of usage, this is not really a > very insignificant issue. In many countries bandwidth is still a very > scare resource. My ISP imposes a 1GB limit (alas!) on usage after > which they charge for each MB of data transferred. In our region we > don't really have an option to change the ISP either, as this is the > only affordable option. This may seem ridiculous to people from > developed countries, but in most developing countries the situation is > similar if not worse when it comes to internet connectivity. A few > hundred MBs of excess downloads does matter. So it would be better if > the Installer asks for confirmation (just like the update-manager > does) from the user before downloading the updates. Infact while > installation I turn of my modem, to prevent automatic downloads. > > I agree with Sambit, I too have a 1GB cap my monthly bandwidth and its akward. 1GB isnt enough even for browsing, leave alone downloading and P2P. I suppose the ubuntu installer should ask for downloading updates and then continue. A better option would be to do all these install after installation is over. The latter is better since people do ask "How much time does Ubuntu take to install?". Time for downloading and installing updates are also counted in the install time though it can be avoided. We can then claim that Ubuntu install faster than other OS and distros. If the latter recommendation is not implemented, the former should be implemented, ask before you download. There is absolutely no harm in connecting all by itself to the ADSL connection. As for Peter, the situation is no so grave as it looks. It can be irritating, but not such that you leave using Ubuntu and starts mouthing against it. If you have any suggestion, you are free to make a wishlist. This is the charm of ubuntu - great userbase and everyone has a say. You can use the brainstorm ara to promote your ideas. The problem only arises if you have a cap on the monthly bandwidth. Regards, Manish Sinha -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 02:11, Felipe Figueiredo wrote: > Peter, > > >> Then came the deathnell for using the system because at 82% of >> installation IT SETS UP AN INTERNET CONNECTION AND USES MY ADSL MODEM > > The subject seems much more harsh than the body. The only complaint, as I see > it, is a lack of notification on what the update process means during > installation. This should be considered a minoir wishlist bug against the > installer. > This may be insignificant issue to most users, but for people who have to pay for their bandwidth per MB of usage, this is not really a very insignificant issue. In many countries bandwidth is still a very scare resource. My ISP imposes a 1GB limit (alas!) on usage after which they charge for each MB of data transferred. In our region we don't really have an option to change the ISP either, as this is the only affordable option. This may seem ridiculous to people from developed countries, but in most developing countries the situation is similar if not worse when it comes to internet connectivity. A few hundred MBs of excess downloads does matter. So it would be better if the Installer asks for confirmation (just like the update-manager does) from the user before downloading the updates. Infact while installation I turn of my modem, to prevent automatic downloads. -- Sambit Bikas Pal MS 3rd Year Indian Institute Of Science Education & Research Kolkata, HC 7, Sector-III Salt Lake, Kolkata-700106 Web: http://www.botcyb.org OpenPGP Key: http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x8E57F8B897D372B3 NB: Kindly send mails as "text/plain". -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
There is a related (the 82% thing) thread on the forums at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=580129 . This is being stuck at 82% because the mirrors are slow probably due to high traffic... I agree that the desktop ISO installer should not attempt to automatically connect and download updates without asking and prompting with a warning that these are for security updates. I have a slow Internet connection and usually disconnect the LAN cable so that the installer just moves on... But I would like to point out to Peter the "community" that is Ubuntu. You should participate by filing bugs/wishlists and discussing on mailing lists and forums so that the distribution can be improved. Come to think of it, if there isnt a bug/wishlist already filed to have the installer ask/prompt before going online, then I should file one myself :-) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
I'm afraid I don't quite grasp the severity of automatic network access: Windows (as it installs by default) will automatically download security fixes without asking, and will even restart your computer so you can immediately enjoy these patches. (It usually plays nice, but a hotfix or two occasionally pushes its way through). Is the issue that your ASDL service was chosen for you, when there were other (better) options? Does the latest Live CD not prompt if multiple internet sources are available? (I'm still using Hardy, so I wouldn't know...) This might be a reasonable request. Can anyone clarify this? -->Seth --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Evan wrote: > From: Evan > Subject: Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user > To: pk.hender...@westnet.com.au, ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 4:08 PM > I would agree with Vladmir (phcoder). Ubuntu tries to be a > distro that > non-tech-savy people can just plug in and use. That > requires it to make some > decisions for the user (such as automatically downloading > security patches) > which normal users really just don't care about. > > If you don't want it to do *anything *without your > permission, then Ubuntu > is not the distro for you. I would recommend Arch Linux > instead. However, be > warned that even Arch has some regularly scheduled tasks > set up > automatically. They are all simple and harmless things like > clearing old > system log files, and they can be turned off fairly easily > if you don't want > them to run, but they are set to run by default. > > If even that is too much automation for your tastes, then > I'm afraid I can't > offer any more advice. Short of compiling your own custom > Linux from > scratch, there is nothing out there that doesn't try to > make the user's life > easier by doing at least some things automatically. > > Just keep in mind, the more control you want over your > system, the more work > you're going to have to do to keep it running. > > Evan > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
I would agree with Vladmir (phcoder). Ubuntu tries to be a distro that non-tech-savy people can just plug in and use. That requires it to make some decisions for the user (such as automatically downloading security patches) which normal users really just don't care about. If you don't want it to do *anything *without your permission, then Ubuntu is not the distro for you. I would recommend Arch Linux instead. However, be warned that even Arch has some regularly scheduled tasks set up automatically. They are all simple and harmless things like clearing old system log files, and they can be turned off fairly easily if you don't want them to run, but they are set to run by default. If even that is too much automation for your tastes, then I'm afraid I can't offer any more advice. Short of compiling your own custom Linux from scratch, there is nothing out there that doesn't try to make the user's life easier by doing at least some things automatically. Just keep in mind, the more control you want over your system, the more work you're going to have to do to keep it running. Evan -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: You lost a new Ubuntu user
This access was just autmoatic package update. You can disable it but then you'll be unable to install new software. The idea behind ubuntu is to make a system for average user but with possibility of customization so its default install gets you pretty much to "average user" system. If you want to control everything it means time to tackle around with a lot of options and installing every piece of software by explicitely saying so you can use ArchLinux or GentooLinux. Vladimir 'phcoder' Serbinenko -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
