Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
Am 06.02.2010 um 11:09 schrieb Mario Vukelic: > On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 10:15 +0100, Markus Hitter wrote: >> That exactly demonstates what I meant with "not helpful at >> all". > > Markus, this is not the support list for random problems. I know. How else would I demonstrate the disastrous experience some people get other than by picking a few typical samples? Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
Am 06.02.2010 um 10:49 schrieb Luke Aaron: > On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 07:15:12 pm you wrote: >> >> Am 06.02.2010 um 06:02 schrieb Luke Aaron: >> >>> Maybe this is something other than an Ubuntu error? My system >>> remembers keyboard layouts and network connections between boots. >>> >>> Also, I'm more inclined to think that VLC not playing smooth video >>> is more likely a VLC problem than an Ubuntu one. Try a different >>> video player maybe. I've never experienced stuttering video under >>> normal use conditions on my Ubuntu installation. >> >> Thank you. That exactly demonstates what I meant with "not helpful at >> all". > > Although it might not directly help you to find solutions to your > problems, you seemed very sure that these problems were the result > of Ubuntu being 'unstable'. Sure, that's more than obvious. I neither fiddled with network settings nor with keyboard settings, so the only conclusion is, Ubuntu introduced that on it's own. Due to an unfortunate point in time when automatic upgrades were pulled, due to a specific hardware combination, whatever. > I'm just suggesting that you may be looking in the wrong place for > your solutions, and that the problems may not reside where you > think they do. The problem is, I have to care about this at all. Ubuntu is meant to be usable by end users and such people don't even know what a keyboard mapping is, much less they know how to fix it. If they see the wrong characters printed on key presses, they go back to Windows. Sorry for being so egocentric here. I can't speak for Ubuntu in general, just for the experience of me and three friends I recommended Ubuntu to. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 10:15 +0100, Markus Hitter wrote: > That exactly demonstates what I meant with "not helpful at > all". Markus, this is not the support list for random problems. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 07:15:12 pm you wrote: > > Am 06.02.2010 um 06:02 schrieb Luke Aaron: > > > Maybe this is something other than an Ubuntu error? My system > > remembers keyboard layouts and network connections between boots. > > > > Also, I'm more inclined to think that VLC not playing smooth video > > is more likely a VLC problem than an Ubuntu one. Try a different > > video player maybe. I've never experienced stuttering video under > > normal use conditions on my Ubuntu installation. > > Thank you. That exactly demonstates what I meant with "not helpful at > all". > > > Markus Although it might not directly help you to find solutions to your problems, you seemed very sure that these problems were the result of Ubuntu being 'unstable'. I'm just suggesting that you may be looking in the wrong place for your solutions, and that the problems may not reside where you think they do. I apologise if that's 'not helpful at all' for you, but I felt it needed to be said. -- Luke Aaron https://launchpad.net/~lukeaar "If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z. X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut." -Albert Einstein signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
Am 06.02.2010 um 06:02 schrieb Luke Aaron: > Maybe this is something other than an Ubuntu error? My system > remembers keyboard layouts and network connections between boots. > > Also, I'm more inclined to think that VLC not playing smooth video > is more likely a VLC problem than an Ubuntu one. Try a different > video player maybe. I've never experienced stuttering video under > normal use conditions on my Ubuntu installation. Thank you. That exactly demonstates what I meant with "not helpful at all". Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 11:59:07 pm Markus Hitter wrote: > >> And no, Ubuntu with it's applications is nowhere near the stability > >> of [...] Windows XP. > > You are kidding, right? > > No, I'm not kidding. Currently, Ubuntu fails to recognize the > keyboard layout and the network connection between boots; VLC can't > play videos without stuttering. Maybe this is something other than an Ubuntu error? My system remembers keyboard layouts and network connections between boots. Also, I'm more inclined to think that VLC not playing smooth video is more likely a VLC problem than an Ubuntu one. Try a different video player maybe. I've never experienced stuttering video under normal use conditions on my Ubuntu installation. -- Luke Aaron https://launchpad.net/~lukeaar "If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z. X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut." -Albert Einstein signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
Just in case you haven't seen some of the previous conversation on this topic, Mark Shuttleworth has talked about rolling releases verse time based releases here: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/tag/cadence He makes some compelling arguments for time based releases. > There should be a prioritization for "FIX AVAILABLE" whereby SOMEHOW > these get tested. Someone needs to drop them into an additional > "Testing" repository (this is more volatile than -proposed), and alert > upstream that there's such a patch. I'm talking about "it compiled, > it ran on my workstation, I'm throwing it in -testing," not "Well it > compiles and runs, we've vetted it, tested it somewhat, we're putting > it in -proposed for wider developer testing." Apparently there's no > such resources to do some pretty basic work. You should probably talk to the upstreams that you think could benefit from this, and ask what they think. Your idea won't matter a whole lot if the upstreams aren't paying attention. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Markus Hitter wrote: > > Am 05.02.2010 um 10:46 schrieb Siegfried-A. Gevatter: > > > Apparently, the bug reporting and fixing (and packaging?) mechanism > is so complex only few developers can keep up with it. Out of the ten > bugs I have current, just a single one was fixed - in several months > of emailing, while a fix was found within a week. THIS. There should be a prioritization for "FIX AVAILABLE" whereby SOMEHOW these get tested. Someone needs to drop them into an additional "Testing" repository (this is more volatile than -proposed), and alert upstream that there's such a patch. I'm talking about "it compiled, it ran on my workstation, I'm throwing it in -testing," not "Well it compiles and runs, we've vetted it, tested it somewhat, we're putting it in -proposed for wider developer testing." Apparently there's no such resources to do some pretty basic work. I understand that the developers have some responsibility here even for beta repositories, especially since that stuff's used to actually evaluate if something should go to release; but we really need a proving ground that amounts to all of "screw it, we don't know, some homeless guy on the street said to try this so I uploaded it; it builds and runs for me." -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
Am 05.02.2010 um 10:46 schrieb Siegfried-A. Gevatter: > 2010/2/5 Markus Hitter : >> Perhaps he's talking about not to introduce a different photo viewer >> or instant messenger application every other release. > I'm not sure what you mean with this in relation to Ben's message. > > That's the point why there are releases Actually, it's not. Ubuntu is a Linux distribution and as such it's the groundwork to run applications on it. To get newer applications, there is no direct need to upgrade the groundwork. >> And no, Ubuntu with it's applications is nowhere near the stability >> of [...] Windows XP. > You are kidding, right? No, I'm not kidding. Currently, Ubuntu fails to recognize the keyboard layout and the network connection between boots; VLC can't play videos without stuttering. That's pretty basic, yet the filed bugs get no attention or get attempts to declare them as user error. Neither is helpful. I'd expect at least hints on where I should stick my nose into to get onto the right track for a good diagnosis/fix. Shortly before Karmic was released I couldn't even file more bugs because Launchpad was more often down than functional. This situation led me to the conclusion there's no point in reporting further bugs, as they do nothing but fill Canonical's disk space. Apparently, the bug reporting and fixing (and packaging?) mechanism is so complex only few developers can keep up with it. Out of the ten bugs I have current, just a single one was fixed - in several months of emailing, while a fix was found within a week. Another one was even introduced intentional (kqemu), that's ridiculous. As soon as the groundwork is working reasonable I'm more than pleased to talk about enhancing the set of default applications. Yet, until Ubuntu gets there, there's a lot of work to be done. Markus > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
> well developed as-is. > >You are kidding, right? It amazes me that someone would say such a >thing. I can tell you right now that the competition (Apple, and, yes, >even Microsoft) do not have this attitude. While Ubuntu in its current >form is a great distribution, it is by no means perfect and is certainly >nowhere near a point where we can start considering stagnation. With the >spread of constant internet connectivity, the potential for innovation >is endless. Moreover, user interfaces need to change to adapt to the new >form factors which are now hitting the market. Lastly, in many areas we >haven't yet even caught up with our competition. Have you tried using >OpenOffice recently? When I think of Ubuntu, I mean the operating system/gnome desktop rather than the bundled applications. Myself, I never see any crashes, and the only software I cannot find a decent version of is a business-quality accounting program. You are right, Microsoft does not have the atitutude of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and we can see the result in an operating system that gets slower with every release. I use OpenOffice every day and much prefer it to the quicksand-like current version of word and excel, with their tiny usable screen area. Perhaps its flaws are partially the result of having release deadlines set. I understand that new interface configurations are necessary to be added (eg support for touch screens or wii controllers), but I was just asking: do they have to be rushed out on a 6 month schedule? How 'bout some testing time and debugging of current system? I am not trying to offend anyone out there, just posing a legitimate question that came up when reading the original post... -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
2010/2/5 Markus Hitter : > Perhaps he's talking about not to introduce a different photo viewer > or instant messenger application every other release. I'm not sure what you mean with this in relation to Ben's message. That's the point why there are releases, and it doesn't necessarily need to be a new application, new major versions of an already present app may introduce regressions or new problems; however, they also add new features, which is why they are introduced. If you don't want the new features, stick to an LTS, if you do, update every six months (and maybe experience some regression or new problem). > And no, Ubuntu with it's applications is nowhere near the stability > of [...] Windows XP. You are kidding, right? Back to the general topic, personally I'm in favor of a rolling release (and I'm currently using Debian Sid on my main laptop), and I could well see it being feasible having several repositories (normal, testing, experimental) plus branching out LTS releases for business users, but that'd be a rather big change in how Ubuntu currently works, and it's basically up to Canonical to take this decision. Cheers, -- Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT) Free Software Developer 363DEAE3 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
Am 05.02.2010 um 02:22 schrieb Ben Gamari: > Excerpts from Brett Mahar's message of Thu Feb 04 20:00:19 -0500 2010: >> >> Is it still necessary to even have releases every 6 months? How many >> more new features/changes need to be made to the OS? It seems pretty >> well developed as-is. >> > You are kidding, right? It amazes me that someone would say such a > thing. I can tell you right now that the competition (Apple, and, yes, > even Microsoft) do not have this attitude. While Ubuntu in its current > form is a great distribution, it is by no means perfect and is > certainly > nowhere near a point where we can start considering stagnation. Perhaps he's talking about not to introduce a different photo viewer or instant messenger application every other release. Each switch in software introduces bugs and blasts previous fixes away. Think about those who actually dived into an issue and fixed it with several days of work, just to see this being obsoleted a few weeks later. And no, Ubuntu with it's applications is nowhere near the stability of Mac OS X or Windows XP. It's sometimes more like a find-your-daily- workaround adventure. Markus - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dipl. Ing. Markus Hitter http://www.jump-ing.de/ -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
Excerpts from Brett Mahar's message of Thu Feb 04 20:00:19 -0500 2010: > > Is it still necessary to even have releases every 6 months? How many > more new features/changes need to be made to the OS? It seems pretty > well developed as-is. > You are kidding, right? It amazes me that someone would say such a thing. I can tell you right now that the competition (Apple, and, yes, even Microsoft) do not have this attitude. While Ubuntu in its current form is a great distribution, it is by no means perfect and is certainly nowhere near a point where we can start considering stagnation. With the spread of constant internet connectivity, the potential for innovation is endless. Moreover, user interfaces need to change to adapt to the new form factors which are now hitting the market. Lastly, in many areas we haven't yet even caught up with our competition. Have you tried using OpenOffice recently? Moreover, upstream packages continue to release new versions and this will not change any time in the near future. Some of these changes are small, whereas others are much larger. IMHO, it would be generally irresponsible to release the latter category onto stable machines without some sort of release structure indicating to users that "things will change, maybe drastically. Act accordingly." In short, our work is nowhere close to done. Cheers, - Ben -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
Nowadays Ubuntu has to support 4 releases at a time (8.04,8.10,9.04 and 9.10) and as result of that some issues aren't solved as quickly as it could. Having a LTS (Desktop and Server) with periodical releases and a Ubuntu for human beans ;) could be interesting. Is it still necessary to even have releases every 6 months? How many more new features/changes need to be made to the OS? It seems pretty well developed as-is. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
El 03/02/10 13:00, ubuntu-devel-discuss-requ...@lists.ubuntu.com escribió: > On Saturday 16 January 2010 01:07:34 Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: > >> > Have you ever tried running development release from day 1? I do it in VM >> > and in no way it is usable as everyday desktop. >> > Going a bit OT here, but since Ubuntu 6.10 beta I've been running devel > versions and I'm still here. both karmic and lucid from as early as week one. > Yes there are problems, yes you must be somewhat ready for this, but it > works. and the best part, you are helping to get a better release. > The point of this suggestion is not removing releases with out changing the process. Removing releases means that every update (specially of core packages) should be carefully pushed into the repository so regression risks are minimized. There should be a development (beta) branch where new packages are tested. There could be even more than two levels, it might seems like Debian's unstable/testing/stable scheme, but I think that would be a good approach for many users. I agree that in Enterprise environments, loosing control on versions is a bit (if not very) scary. For those situations LTS will be fine. Nowadays Ubuntu has to support 4 releases at a time (8.04,8.10,9.04 and 9.10) and as result of that some issues aren't solved as quickly as it could. Having a LTS (Desktop and Server) with periodical releases and a Ubuntu for human beans ;) could be interesting. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Removing Ubuntu releases, just Ubuntu (Aitor Pazos)
>At this point I > think Google's approach with ChromeOS is something interesting. There > are not different versions of ChromeOS. If you have ChromeOS installed > you will always have the latest software installed. I think google's approach is a terrible idea, as I hate the intrusivness of automatic updates. What if I like the old version better or something in a new release is not compatable with my computer? Also this encourages bloatware, as new versions are almost never smaller than old versions. And what is the point of switching from Windows to Linux if we hand over our machines to some faceless people on the other side of the world? (no offense meant, Ubuntu and Goolge people!) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
