Re: Unneeded System Tools menu
There is also a spec about cleaning up the menus: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MenusRevisited2 -- ## Przemysław Kulczycki <<>> Azrael Nightwalker ## # jabber: azrael[na]jabster.pl | tlen: azrael29a # ### www: http://reksio.ftj.agh.edu.pl/~azrael/ ### signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Unneeded System Tools menu
On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 3:20 AM, Jan Claeys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Op maandag 31-03-2008 om 09:05 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef George > Farris: > > > The best example lately is and I suppose it was a technical reason and > > so maybe not avoidable because of gvfs is: moving the "Removable > > drives and Media" from the preferences. That was really a horrible > > move. There aren't even drives in the menu any more and yet it still > > says "Drives". > > +1 > > Do you have a bug report # for that? I filed an upstream one at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524195. No reply yet though. -- Matthew East http://www.mdke.org gnupg pub 1024D/0E6B06FF -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Unneeded System Tools menu
Op maandag 31-03-2008 om 09:05 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef George Farris: > The best example lately is and I suppose it was a technical reason and > so maybe not avoidable because of gvfs is: moving the "Removable > drives and Media" from the preferences. That was really a horrible > move. There aren't even drives in the menu any more and yet it still > says "Drives". +1 Do you have a bug report # for that? -- Jan Claeys -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Unneeded System Tools menu
2008/3/31, Milan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > The expression "System" is not the only, nor the main problem: adding a > submenu when you only have 7 of them is a major change in Applications. My point exactly. > categories of programs. And "Tools" already exists, if you don't go this > way: it's called "Accessories". True, too. > If you agree we should do something, here is short list of options: > > - the easiest may be to move g-s-m to Accessories and hwtest to > Administration I think this would be the easiest and best option for hardy. It's the least intrusive option and would fix the problem. For hardy+1, upstream hopefully also cleans up the System->Preferences menu by combining more programs. > - another more complex approach could be to create a submenu in > Administration called System Tools or something like that, so it would > not annoy us when we want to work and not administrate the system. This > would work on a long-term outlook, since we can completely remove the > System Tools menu from Applications. This might be something worth considering indeed. -Timo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Unneeded System Tools menu
Sebastien Bacher wrote: > We will likely move some other things back there if we continue to use > the category. The comments there are interesting though. Why do you > think it's an issue? Do you find confusing to have the category unmasked > and containing only one item if you install vmware for example? This would be less of a problem for me, since as Timo said, users that install such programs are likely not to be afraid by system stuff. Mackenzie Morgan wrote: > I think the confusion is in the naming. We have a "System" menu and a > "System..." submenu now. The suggestion that it be renamed to simply > "Tools" makes sense to me. The expression "System" is not the only, nor the main problem: adding a submenu when you only have 7 of them is a major change in Applications. For now, this menu is very nice and only contains "productive" apps, not tools. In a day-to-day use, users won't need this system tools, however you may name them - I like the idea of separating clearly these categories of programs. And "Tools" already exists, if you don't go this way: it's called "Accessories". If you agree we should do something, here is short list of options: - the easiest may be to move g-s-m to Accessories and hwtest to Administration - another more complex approach could be to create a submenu in Administration called System Tools or something like that, so it would not annoy us when we want to work and not administrate the system. This would work on a long-term outlook, since we can completely remove the System Tools menu from Applications. [- Almost out of topic: we could hide hwtest-gtk and instead use gnome-device-manager with a button to start hwtest, like we used to do. This tool would be useful (no way of getting hardware infos ATM) and could go to Administration.] The constant moving of items between the menus is IMHO the result of the fact that we don't really know what do to with them: no perfect scheme has been found so far. Hope we may find the right one. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Unneeded System Tools menu
On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 12:48 +0200, Milan wrote: > In Hardy, all applications that don't really manage system-wide or user > settings were moved from System->Preferences and ->Administration to > Applications->System Tools. > > This is a good idea as a general rule since previously both > configuration menus were bloated by numerous tools. But in the default > install, adding a System Tools menu in Applications in not > user-friendly. The two only tools that appear there are hwtest-gtk and > gnome-system-monitor: these are not likely to be used by the base user; > furthermore, their use is very different from that of most applications, > i.e. editing documents, and so on. > > So I suggest we choose either to put g-s-m and back to > System->Administration, or we hide its icon, adding elsewhere a way to > start it (a keyboard shortcut?), and the sme for hwtest-gtk. We may > consider short-term and long-term solutions to this, because the current > situation is IMHO not very good. Please don't consider this type of thing, "hide the icon". There is nothing more annoying for users than getting used to a certain thing and then having it completely changed. Please consider this carefully and then plan the change with the goal to leave it that way for a long time. As founder and head of the Cowichan Valley Linux Users Group I have been helping people install and use Linux for many years and one of the biggest single annoyances is changing menus and locations of programs on people. As more and more people and businesses begin to use Ubuntu, they want/need to see some stability. This comment, "gnome-system-monitor: these are not likely to be used by the base user", is just plain wrong if for example, in a business setting, the users have been taught to use gsm only to find it suddenly disappear from their menu. Please, please consider that these changes affect many, many people. This is a plea for more long term thinking in where the menu and preference settings are located. The best example lately is and I suppose it was a technical reason and so maybe not avoidable because of gvfs is: moving the "Removable drives and Media" from the preferences. That was really a horrible move. There aren't even drives in the menu any more and yet it still says "Drives". IMHO it would have been better to leave the Tab there with a note on it informing the user where the preferences had been moved to. I mean at least give them a clue, right? Anyway thanks for listening to the rant. Cheers -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Unneeded System Tools menu
On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 16:25 +0200, Sebastien Bacher wrote: > Le lundi 31 mars 2008 à 12:48 +0200, Milan a écrit : > > In Hardy, all applications that don't really manage system-wide or user > > settings were moved from System->Preferences and ->Administration to > > Applications->System Tools. > > The change has been decided in a recent desktop team meeting on IRC. The > category is an upstream official one and quite some applications are > using it. We used to do changes to not have it on the default > installation but the system menus have lot of items and the category is > quickly unmasked when installing something using it anyway > > We will likely move some other things back there if we continue to use > the category. The comments there are interesting though. Why do you > think it's an issue? Do you find confusing to have the category unmasked > and containing only one item if you install vmware for example? > Sebastien Bacher I think the confusion is in the naming. We have a "System" menu and a "System..." submenu now. The suggestion that it be renamed to simply "Tools" makes sense to me. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Unneeded System Tools menu
2008/3/31, Sebastien Bacher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > using it. We used to do changes to not have it on the default > installation but the system menus have lot of items and the category is > quickly unmasked when installing something using it anyway Having it not used in the default installation would be preferred. For the large majority of users there are not going to be any applications in that category ([add some popcon statistics here]). Having it in the default installation decreases the feeling of user-friendliness / polish of Ubuntu. > Why do you think it's an issue? Generally it's very user-non-friendly to have "system this" and "system that" everywhere. People aren't interested in the system (actually, they are more usually scared about anything related to the system), but productive/fun applications. Ubuntu has a System menu already, and without the System Tools menu the Applications is rather clean of any user-confusing system-level stuff. Especially at this point of release schedule, adding a menu in the default installation for one/two items is against common/usability sense since it increases clutter in the Applications menu by adding 17% more submenus... hardware testing is clearly in a wrong place anyway IMO since it's a system administrator program. I would have raised my voice about this issue already before, but I thought the current behavior of having hwtest and system monitor there is a bug that is soon fixed. > Do you find confusing to have the category unmasked > and containing only one item if you install vmware for example? No, I don't mind that, since when installing such software I probably already belong the small minority of computer users who know something about the system. -Timo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Unneeded System Tools menu
Le lundi 31 mars 2008 à 12:48 +0200, Milan a écrit : > In Hardy, all applications that don't really manage system-wide or user > settings were moved from System->Preferences and ->Administration to > Applications->System Tools. The change has been decided in a recent desktop team meeting on IRC. The category is an upstream official one and quite some applications are using it. We used to do changes to not have it on the default installation but the system menus have lot of items and the category is quickly unmasked when installing something using it anyway We will likely move some other things back there if we continue to use the category. The comments there are interesting though. Why do you think it's an issue? Do you find confusing to have the category unmasked and containing only one item if you install vmware for example? Sebastien Bacher -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Unneeded System Tools menu
2008/3/31, Matthew East <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > A better solution in my opinion would be to move the > Applications -> System Tools submenu to a System -> Tools submenu. I agree that the current setup is very poor, for the reasons already presented. If the System -> Tools is unfeasible at this point, and if the System Monitor is not wanted to put back under System menu (under a submenu or as a separate item), it could fit in the Applications->Accessories well enough. Print jobs tool is already there, which is a bit similar... That would leave only hwtest-gtk, which is strictly an admin tool (asks for sudo rights) so it could maybe fit under the System menu. I actually liked its place inside the HAL Device Manager when such program was included, now I'm not sure where it should be... By the hwtest-gtk is currently completely untranslated and untranslatable: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hwtest/+bug/202447, which adds to the need of it being not too visible unless the bug is fixed. -Timo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Unneeded System Tools menu
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Milan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In Hardy, all applications that don't really manage system-wide or user > settings were moved from System->Preferences and ->Administration to > Applications->System Tools. > > This is a good idea as a general rule since previously both > configuration menus were bloated by numerous tools. But in the default > install, adding a System Tools menu in Applications in not > user-friendly. The two only tools that appear there are hwtest-gtk and > gnome-system-monitor: these are not likely to be used by the base user; > furthermore, their use is very different from that of most applications, > i.e. editing documents, and so on. > > So I suggest we choose either to put g-s-m and back to > System->Administration, or we hide its icon, adding elsewhere a way to > start it (a keyboard shortcut?), and the sme for hwtest-gtk. We may > consider short-term and long-term solutions to this, because the current > situation is IMHO not very good. > > This was already raised in this bug (with one duplicate): > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-monitor/+bug/205190 I agree that the current solution is badly presented. The problem for me is that we already have a "System" menu, so it's inelegant in the extreme to show the user a "System Tools" menu under the Applications menu. A better solution in my opinion would be to move the Applications -> System Tools submenu to a System -> Tools submenu. Copying this email to -desktop. Matt -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Unneeded System Tools menu
In Hardy, all applications that don't really manage system-wide or user settings were moved from System->Preferences and ->Administration to Applications->System Tools. This is a good idea as a general rule since previously both configuration menus were bloated by numerous tools. But in the default install, adding a System Tools menu in Applications in not user-friendly. The two only tools that appear there are hwtest-gtk and gnome-system-monitor: these are not likely to be used by the base user; furthermore, their use is very different from that of most applications, i.e. editing documents, and so on. So I suggest we choose either to put g-s-m and back to System->Administration, or we hide its icon, adding elsewhere a way to start it (a keyboard shortcut?), and the sme for hwtest-gtk. We may consider short-term and long-term solutions to this, because the current situation is IMHO not very good. This was already raised in this bug (with one duplicate): https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-monitor/+bug/205190 Cheers -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
