Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
On Wed, 2010-08-18 at 01:17 -0400, Andy Watson wrote: If you want to make money, sell it. If you want contributors, focus on people that will contribute. Ah, do you equate selling with proprietary? Another maddening myth that seems to be put about far too often to dull the understanding of foss. What we are selling is services; the services a programmer sells is Development. If users don't want to be involved then they get no consideration. They are as it were not-deserving of functional improvements or bug fixes and can only really claim to be getting the scraps of what other people pay for. But of course this isn't because people _are_ lazy or petty but because the cynical assume the human race is lazy, petty _and_ selfish to self destruction. Not that the current situation in the world doesn't suggest that. But there is a very large slice of people who will do the right thing when they know; many more people who look to those first set of people as guides on what to do. If we can inform enough of the tribal leaders then we can move this forward. I don't think we even need to push for general mass marketing. Just getting enough decently written and presented documents into the hands of community leaders should have a big effect. The mistake, I think, is in assuming that we need to reach everyone, or in fact the lowest common denominator. Society isn't quite that simple, not even for McDonnalds or US presidents. A lot of people don't care enough to contribute or donate. It's our job to make sure we communicate why it's important to care, and if that's not possible then we have to teach by example. I'm getting tired of hearing how irresponsible the human race is on this mailing list with sweeping generalisations, even that we should make extra effort not to mention anything that may introduce honorable production to the delicate constitutions of the debauched general masses for fear of confusing their poor brains. Just the part where I point out how much non-participation takes user's needs and flushes it clear down the toilet should be enough. No participation, no communication, no progress. Programmers get what they want, users get to use what programmers needed. Yes Ubuntu is technically awesome, but also FOSS is awesome and it shouldn't be just the programmers and big businesses that get to take advantage of it because of selective dumb-down marketing. Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
Do you actively contribute to preventing global warming? Saving endangered animals? Saving historic building from demolition? Feed stray cats? No. You might care about all of these but you can't actively contribute to every cause known to man. FOSS is among those causes. Why should we expect everyone to help out with Ubuntu? This is ridiculous. People are interested in different activities. If helping out their operating system and FOSS is not an interest, they don't get to use Ubuntu? If you're looking for people to tell you that people are amazingly helpful, you might want to take a look around. As long as I've been subscribed to this list, all I have seen is arguing about technicalities. I personally want to help out Ubuntu but no one is doing anything around here. Sure I could start something myself but what? Update the Wiki that doesn't get used? Be active on IRC that no one uses? Upload my material to spreadubuntu? What's the point? To have a site filled up with my stuff as there is no recent stuff on there. What do you do to help the marketing team? Maybe I can help. The point that I'm trying to make here is that I have realized that this mailing list is beginning to be a waste of my time. I'll just go and do my own thing and hope for the best. Good Luck folks. Andy Watson watson...@gmail.com watson...@msn.com On 2010-08-18, at 3:34 AM, Martin Owens docto...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 2010-08-18 at 01:17 -0400, Andy Watson wrote: If you want to make money, sell it. If you want contributors, focus on people that will contribute. Ah, do you equate selling with proprietary? Another maddening myth that seems to be put about far too often to dull the understanding of foss. What we are selling is services; the services a programmer sells is Development. If users don't want to be involved then they get no consideration. They are as it were not-deserving of functional improvements or bug fixes and can only really claim to be getting the scraps of what other people pay for. But of course this isn't because people _are_ lazy or petty but because the cynical assume the human race is lazy, petty _and_ selfish to self destruction. Not that the current situation in the world doesn't suggest that. But there is a very large slice of people who will do the right thing when they know; many more people who look to those first set of people as guides on what to do. If we can inform enough of the tribal leaders then we can move this forward. I don't think we even need to push for general mass marketing. Just getting enough decently written and presented documents into the hands of community leaders should have a big effect. The mistake, I think, is in assuming that we need to reach everyone, or in fact the lowest common denominator. Society isn't quite that simple, not even for McDonnalds or US presidents. A lot of people don't care enough to contribute or donate. It's our job to make sure we communicate why it's important to care, and if that's not possible then we have to teach by example. I'm getting tired of hearing how irresponsible the human race is on this mailing list with sweeping generalisations, even that we should make extra effort not to mention anything that may introduce honorable production to the delicate constitutions of the debauched general masses for fear of confusing their poor brains. Just the part where I point out how much non-participation takes user's needs and flushes it clear down the toilet should be enough. No participation, no communication, no progress. Programmers get what they want, users get to use what programmers needed. Yes Ubuntu is technically awesome, but also FOSS is awesome and it shouldn't be just the programmers and big businesses that get to take advantage of it because of selective dumb-down marketing. Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
Because argument and debate aren't a waste of time so long as we're learning. On Wed, 2010-08-18 at 10:07 -0400, Andy Watson wrote: What do you do to help the marketing team? Maybe I can help. http://doctormo.org/2010/08/18/reasons-to-love-ubuntu/ -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
I'm actually shocked that this is an argument at all. Marketing teams market their products, not anyone else's. You don't see McDonalds marketing for the farmers that raise the cattle where they get their beef. They market solutions for hunger. That's what we should be doing with Ubuntu. So, what are our solutions? 1. Productivity - With Ubuntu Office (OOo) you have everything you need and more in one package at no extra cost. This includes built-in compatibility with MS Office. 2. Photo Management - Included photo manager (F-Spot) 3. Graphics Processing - Ability to create and edit beautiful graphics using Gimp, which is widely accepted, used, and has hundreds, if not thousands of available plugins. 4. Security - Ubuntu is much safer, and is less prone to wild viruses. 5. Better Peripheral support - Ubuntu has built in drivers for most of today's most popular hardware. 6. Store important documents with Ubuntu One 7. Thousands of solutions packaged in every install, and more only one click away in the Ubuntu Store!!! 8. DRM Free Music store for music enthusiasts!!! 9. The list goes on and on... But that's not all. Have old computers that are starting to get sluggish? Ubuntu is a great replacement for Virus and spyware ridden systems. Finally, a system built for humans!!! Give them a document explaining how to back up their files in Windows XP and Vista, so that they can easily move them over to Ubuntu. Secondly, there needs to be some type of info going to Mfg's. Let's face it. Most people buy a computer, and never mess with the OS. We have to get them at the point of purchase, or they will just stick with Windows. Mfg's need to be giving the consumers the option to purchase a computer running Ubuntu, AND there needs to be an explanation alongside that explaining the benefits AND setbacks of using a Linux based OS. Lastly, I think it's great and all that Ubuntu is open source, but it should really have the Linux separated from it in the marketing. The reason is because with most people, Linux still has a bad rap for being a clunky unusable system used only by fat oily nerds that live in their grandmother's basement. They don't realize that most of their electronics run on Linux now. Instead of educating people about other open source software, just remove the Linux from the marketing altogether. Ubuntu should be a product of it's own. All the applications included will have the names of responsible parties properly attached within the programs, so why do we need to focus on it when trying to convince people to buy. All we should have to explain is that Ubuntu was created by Conical as a way to create an operating system that anybody can use!!! We shouldn't be explaining the benefits of using Open Source software. Nobody cares except the people that already know, and even if they do care, and don't know, then there are already millions of webpages debating that. Quick, easy, pointed info promoting Ubuntu and the ways that Ubuntu can make your computing experience easier!!! That's just my opinion though. Bryan On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 8:00 PM, ubuntu-marketing-requ...@lists.ubuntu.comwrote: Send ubuntu-marketing mailing list submissions to ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ubuntu-marketing-requ...@lists.ubuntu.com You can reach the person managing the list at ubuntu-marketing-ow...@lists.ubuntu.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of ubuntu-marketing digest... Today's Topics: 1. success brings responsibility (Lisandro Vaccaro) 2. Re: success brings responsibility (Martin Owens) 3. Re: success brings responsibility (Martin Owens) 4. Marketing etc. (Roscoe) -- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:05:58 -0300 From: Lisandro Vaccaro lisandro.vacc...@gmail.com Subject: [ubuntu-marketing] success brings responsibility To: ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Message-ID: aanlktimtis9f-yydaexwqnfiecdsogrtsilfh_-ud...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 This kind of debates can go on forever. Unless we finally decide what are our sentiments regarding this kind of issues we'll never move forward than being a place to toss out ideas. And believe it or not there isn't a Canonical team ready to work on these ideas and nobody except ourselves will do anything to promote Ubuntu; so either we develop a more organized marketing strategy or we all watch silently how Ubuntu fails or successes on it's own. Constructive criticism is great but we can't be always in the same stage, the next step is to say, great what do we do about it?. We all share the same frustrations and we all share the
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
On Tue, 2010-08-17 at 21:46 +0900, Bryan Ogden wrote: I'm actually shocked that this is an argument at all. Marketing teams market their products, not anyone else's. You don't see McDonalds marketing for the farmers that raise the cattle where they get their beef. They market solutions for hunger. Yes that's right! food producers never say anything about sustainability, organic, fair trade or environmentally friendly: http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/mcd/csr/about/sustainable_supply/best-of-sustainable-supply-chain.html FOSS is our Fair Trade, it would be a mistake to ditch it just because it's something we don't quite understand. I've seen too many people equate open source with Linux. As if one was the other. This is very frustrating because many people really do think they have a handle on this but really don't. Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
I don't want to repeat the same things but unless we set these kind of things straight and record the conclusions somewhere, these discussions are meaningless, even if you two decided on one point or another, what are you going to do? Will anybody even know the discussion take place? You won't change the way all the sites, locos and users handle promotion and in a few weeks someone else will bring the issue back to the MK list. Also do you handle Ubuntu's page or anything? We are debating about things like if just talking could change the course of the whole Ubuntu community, yet there is no initiative to share the point of view with everyone, no initiative to tell everyone what it would be the right thing to do. It's just a little debate that will end up one way or another and will be lost on the list, again, until somebody in less than a month brings the same issue back, again. 2010/8/17 Martin Owens docto...@gmail.com On Tue, 2010-08-17 at 21:46 +0900, Bryan Ogden wrote: I'm actually shocked that this is an argument at all. Marketing teams market their products, not anyone else's. You don't see McDonalds marketing for the farmers that raise the cattle where they get their beef. They market solutions for hunger. Yes that's right! food producers never say anything about sustainability, organic, fair trade or environmentally friendly: http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/mcd/csr/about/sustainable_supply/best-of-sustainable-supply-chain.html FOSS is our Fair Trade, it would be a mistake to ditch it just because it's something we don't quite understand. I've seen too many people equate open source with Linux. As if one was the other. This is very frustrating because many people really do think they have a handle on this but really don't. Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing -- Lisandro H. Vaccaro -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
On Tue, 2010-08-17 at 17:14 -0300, Lisandro Vaccaro wrote: I don't want to repeat the same things but unless we set these kind of things straight and record the conclusions somewhere, these discussions are meaningless, even if you two decided on one point or another, what are you going to do? Will anybody even know the discussion take place? You won't change the way all the sites, locos and users handle promotion and in a few weeks someone else will bring the issue back to the MK list. Would you mind taking on the job of minute taker? We have that new wiki page to record this stuff and perhaps we need some editing and such, but we could do with it recorded your right. Also do you handle Ubuntu's page or anything? We are debating about things like if just talking could change the course of the whole Ubuntu community, yet there is no initiative to share the point of view with everyone, no initiative to tell everyone what it would be the right thing to do. It's just a little debate that will end up one way or another and will be lost on the list, again, until somebody in less than a month brings the same issue back, again. I thought we did? We are a part of the community and in essence control a very small singular part of it. Of course we'd like to convince others that are arguments are rational too, for that I use a blog on the planet :-D If we have a good document, I could promote it to wider circles. Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
I'm sorry. I just hope there were more active projects on the list. idk the wiki has a long way to go before it becomes a decent tool. Just for the record, FOSS has to be mentioned, always. There are a lot of reasons for it, bust first of all, the OS is great but if it wasn't FOSS it would just be an average, though very secure OS compared to Mac or Seven. That doesn't mean that it can't be said with a different set of words, like for example everyone is free to use it and improve it which transfers not only that is FOSS but also opens your way to the benefits of it. In the facebook page there are several mentions of FOSS but the word is never written. Be part of something amazing. Ubuntu is a* community developed* operating system that is perfect for laptops, desktops and servers.* Thanks to volunteers from all over the world, everyone can use Ubuntu completely free of charge.* ...Ubuntu is made for sharing, everyone can use it, change it and improve it. 2010/8/17 Martin Owens docto...@gmail.com On Tue, 2010-08-17 at 17:14 -0300, Lisandro Vaccaro wrote: I don't want to repeat the same things but unless we set these kind of things straight and record the conclusions somewhere, these discussions are meaningless, even if you two decided on one point or another, what are you going to do? Will anybody even know the discussion take place? You won't change the way all the sites, locos and users handle promotion and in a few weeks someone else will bring the issue back to the MK list. Would you mind taking on the job of minute taker? We have that new wiki page to record this stuff and perhaps we need some editing and such, but we could do with it recorded your right. Also do you handle Ubuntu's page or anything? We are debating about things like if just talking could change the course of the whole Ubuntu community, yet there is no initiative to share the point of view with everyone, no initiative to tell everyone what it would be the right thing to do. It's just a little debate that will end up one way or another and will be lost on the list, again, until somebody in less than a month brings the same issue back, again. I thought we did? We are a part of the community and in essence control a very small singular part of it. Of course we'd like to convince others that are arguments are rational too, for that I use a blog on the planet :-D If we have a good document, I could promote it to wider circles. Martin, -- Lisandro H. Vaccaro -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
On Tue, 2010-08-17 at 18:26 -0300, Lisandro Vaccaro wrote: I'm sorry. I just hope there were more active projects on the list. idk the wiki has a long way to go before it becomes a decent tool. *sigh* So why did you complain about not writing these things down? Your not prepared to help fix the problem your complaining about. Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
On 18 August 2010 00:46, Bryan Ogden bry...@ogden-computers.com wrote: I'm actually shocked that this is an argument at all. Marketing teams market their products, not anyone else's. You don't see McDonalds marketing for the farmers that raise the cattle where they get their beef. They market solutions for hunger. Careful with analogies counter-factuals: Here in New Zealand, McDonalds *does *market farmers' beef. All meat is free range here. I see it as the NZ corporation distancing itself from practices everywhere else in the world. Also, top-posting a digest makes it impossible to see what argument you're unhappy about. Lastly, please try to stay positive and assume good faith. That's what we should be doing with Ubuntu. So, what are our solutions? 1. Productivity - With Ubuntu Office (OOo) you have everything you need and more in one package at no extra cost. This includes built-in compatibility with MS Office. ... 9. The list goes on and on... But that's not all. Have old computers that are starting to get sluggish? Ubuntu is a great replacement for Virus and spyware ridden systems. These are all features, not benefits. We should be marketing benefits, not features. Benefits are much more emotional, which is why consumers make purchase decisions. Feature lists have been the status quo that has brought Ubuntu to the chasm. They will only slowly bring us out of it. Finally, a system built for humans!!! Agreed! But how to we sell this to consumers? Give them a document explaining how to back up their files in Windows XP and Vista, so that they can easily move them over to Ubuntu. Do they need a document? The installer does this automatically... Secondly, there needs to be some type of info going to Mfg's. Let's face it. Most people buy a computer, and never mess with the OS. We have to get them at the point of purchase, or they will just stick with Windows. I strongly agree with this sentiment. Until bug #1 is fixed, MS Windows will always have majority share in the stats. However, is this marketing team able to influence what appears in stores? I think we should focus on the demand-side, rather than the supply-side of Ubuntu. Let Canonical talk to Dell HP. This team can focus its energy on consumers. Lastly, I think it's great and all that Ubuntu is open source, but it should really have the Linux separated from it in the marketing. This was agreed to several weeks ago. It's been Canonical's practice for several years. [snip] We shouldn't be explaining the benefits of using Open Source software. Nobody cares except the people that already know, and even if they do care, and don't know, then there are already millions of webpages debating that. I find that statement a little troubling. Are you able to expand on what you mean? Are you saying that in Ubuntu-specific material, we shouldn't talk about applications? Quick, easy, pointed info promoting Ubuntu and the ways that Ubuntu can make your computing experience easier!!! The documentation team is really focused on creating high-quality, free licenced guides to Ubuntu. That's just my opinion though. Bryan Thanks for your input Brian! Looking forward to your response. Tim -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
On Tue, 2010-08-17 at 20:14 -0400, Andy Watson wrote: I don't want to alarm anyone but a lot of people aren't programmers, designers, translators or want to be helpful in anyway. After all, it is just an operating system. A lot of people don't care about their OS. If you go and start telling them that it's open and they can modify it anyway they want, I personally don't think they'd care too much. They just want it to work and not have to fuss with it. And how do you suppose Ubuntu will continue to work without investment? We don't need users to get materially involved. but it would be best for them and for us if they could at least get involved financially. Ignoring how Ubuntu is made is madness, we're making ourselves poorer by limiting investment to only OEMs, Mark and those with material skills and commitment. Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] ubuntu-marketing Digest, Vol 56, Issue 20
If you want to make money, sell it. If you want contributors, focus on people that will contribute. A lot of people don't care enough to contribute or donate. Andy Watson watson...@gmail.com watson...@msn.com On 2010-08-17, at 8:49 PM, Martin Owens docto...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-08-17 at 20:14 -0400, Andy Watson wrote: I don't want to alarm anyone but a lot of people aren't programmers, designers, translators or want to be helpful in anyway. After all, it is just an operating system. A lot of people don't care about their OS. If you go and start telling them that it's open and they can modify it anyway they want, I personally don't think they'd care too much. They just want it to work and not have to fuss with it. And how do you suppose Ubuntu will continue to work without investment? We don't need users to get materially involved. but it would be best for them and for us if they could at least get involved financially. Ignoring how Ubuntu is made is madness, we're making ourselves poorer by limiting investment to only OEMs, Mark and those with material skills and commitment. Martin, -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
