Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Christian Robottom Reis]

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 11:13:30PM -0700, Jonathan Marsden wrote:
> Is there a place where LP performance issues are measured and displayed,  
> online, for public view?  Maybe a comparison of the previous codebase(s)  
> vs. the 3.0 codebase on several representative queries could be graphed,  
> or something?  Then performance goals for the next version could be  
> discussed, and added, with some defined metrics and history to base them 
> on?

Not really public today, but mainly because we have nowhere easy to host
them. But if you think it's really valuable I could chase this down --
we do generate reports daily, and we could plot graphs and publicize
those or both.

You may also have noticed our performance week work:


http://blog.launchpad.net/launchpad-performance-week/introducing-launchpad-performance-weeks

So we're trying different ways of doing this.

> Great!  THANKYOU!  The list of features offered did not give me that  
> impression, or I misunderstood it, or both.  Perhaps the LP team would  
> get more encouraging responses if others could "see" that this kind of  
> discussion is indeed happening?  Is there a way to make it more visible?

You can see all our 3.0 lists, and our milestones:

https://dev.launchpad.net/VersionThreeDotO
https://edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-project/+milestones
https://edge.launchpad.net/launcpad-project/+milestone/2.2.2

You can also give feedback to us via -users, directly to team leads, or
on IRC. I'm interested in your (and other MOTU's) view on these; we're
already committed to that list and making changes is always hard, but
maybe we can help shape those features into something which is better
for everybody.
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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Christian Robottom Reis]

On Sat, Sep 06, 2008 at 09:07:55PM +0200, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote:
> I hope I'm not late to give my own feedback ;)

It's too late for last week's meeting  but I've passed it on to
Julian and Bjorn to check where we stand; they may contact you for
further details. We will publish our working 3.0 lists RSN on the help
wiki and Joey will mail out a notice when we do.
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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Emilio Pozuelo Monfort]

Hi!

I hope I'm not late to give my own feedback ;)

Reinhard Tartler wrote:
> I had an very interesting telephone conference yesterday with the
> launchpad guys. They are currently considering what features launchpad
> 3.0 will have. They did send me a list of things they have on the
> schedule and ask (among others) us MOTUs to help prioritising the list
> below.

This is my list:

> ||   || /TagDiscipline || Actually using OfficialBugTags for something! ||
> ||   || /CompleteActivityLog || Ensuring bug activity captures all bug 
> changes ||
> ||   || /CaptureDistroSeriesWhenFilingBugs || UI to allow the user to say "I 
> don't know/Hardy/Intrepid/..." ||
> ||   || Code review UI || Allow code review of patch attachments, 
> feature-parity with Bugzilla ||
> ||   || Version-tracking of bugs || Being able to specify that a bug is 
> present or was introduced in version X, and later fixed in version Y (*) ||
> ||   || /IgnoreSubscriptionsRevenge || Unsubscribing implicit subscribers 
> from specific bugs ||
> ||   || Duplicate-detection inside launchpad || Scavenge Launchpad bugs with 
> similar contents to the bug displayed and easily mark dupes ||
> ||   || Duplicate-detection across bugtrackers || Scavenge upstream and 
> downstream bugtrackers for possible duplicates of bug report; on-demand and 
> as a second step to bug reporting ||
> ||   || Quick summary/description/tags editing || Allowing people to change 
> these fields without two pageloads ||

And of course these ones!
Subscribe should work in one click 
+packagebugs could have better filtering 
+packagebugs doesn't list packages for teams 

Cheers,
Emilio



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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Cody A.W. Somerville]

I figured I should get my feedback in :-)

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Reinhard Tartler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>
> Hello from the lp liaison,
>
> (you are receiving this mail because you are either a member of the
> motu-sru or motu-release team. A copy is also sent to
> ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com)





>
>
> Thank you for you collaboration!
>
> --
> Gruesse/greetings,
> Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4
>



= My 5 =

1. Launchpad UI
2. Make staying on top of everything easy
3. Project pages aren't as useful anymore
4. Associating teams/users with projects & ACL
5. Speed

 1. Launchpad UI

1.1 "Main pages"

The "main/front page" is almost useless for someone signed in. This includes
the front pages for subdomains such as bugs.launchpad.net. Instead of
showing the latest 5 bugs reported and fixed globally, maybe show
information that is relevant to me? I think some sort of "homepage" for
users logged in that shows relevant and useful information would be a huge
plus (ie. activity/status of bugs reported by the user, activity/status/new
bugs in projects/packages user is subscribed to, recent commits to branches
of interest, list of bugs that need to be looked at if you're a bug
contact/subscriber for project/package, blueprint stuff, etc. etc. etc.)

1.2 Breadcrumb

One huge problem I have with launchpad is that I have to often edit the url
manually to get back to where I just was or move to a less detailed view.
Navigating the view hierarchy needs to be much easier and it should never be
easier to take the time to manually modify the url than to use the actual
launchpad interface.

Luckily, my biggest annoyance (project branches) has already been fixed.

1.3 The new buttons

Sometimes the new icons/buttons to do actions make the interface easier to
use because they assist their previous lone textual link counterpart.
However, in contrast, sometimes the textual counterpart has been removed
entirely leaving an ambiguous icon all by its self. Furthermore, sometimes
these icons become very distracting because there are so many of them in one
small part of the screen real estate and they're distracting and look out of
place.

This being said, I think this item may now be moot as it appears work has
gone into improving it.

1.4 Context relevant information

The bug page for projects show the last five bugs reported on the left and
last five bugs touched on the right. Under the bug number and title, it says
"reported by on $D by $N"... for both. What would be much more interested to
me on the right for the last five bugs touched would be the date and name of
individual who last touched said bug instead of when and who reported it.

 2. Make staying on top of everything easy

Launchpad contains a lot of data. There are a lot of bugs for someone such
as myself to look at each day from a lot of different teams (Xubuntu
packages, universe sponsor queue, SRU approval requests, Canonical,
non-ubuntu projects, etc.). Launchpad needs to make it easier to stay on top
of everything.

2.1 An "open" status

There needs to be a status that says "someone has looked at this but the bug
isn't confirmed, triaged, whatever". Preferably, the transition from "new"
to "open" should occur automatically when someone (or maybe just members of
the bug squad, bug contact, etc. whatever) take action on the bug such as
make a comment.

2.2 I want to fix that!

Right now, there is no way to say "Okay, I can't fix this bug right now but
add it to my todo list" except by assigning yourself and setting the bug as
in progress so that it shows up on your profile page under "$N is working
on...". First off, if anything, if the bug isn't closed and you're assigned
to it then it should show up in the "working on" section. But alas,
assigning a bug to yourself because you *plan* to fix it will only result in
people complaining if you don't fix it within a day or two (depending on the
package/bug). I think it would be helpful to have some other mechanism to
say "add this to my todo/watch/favorite list" to avoid that.

2.3 Tell me what to do

Launchpad should be able to suggest to me what bugs to work on similar to
how it suggests what blueprints to work on. I would personally find it very
helpful if launchpad was that personal assistant that I've been dying to
hire. :P

2.4 Remind me what to do

Some people such as my self would also enjoy reminders, daily/weekly
reports, and the what not. They should be completely optional and as useful
as possible. An example might be an overview of what happened in your
projects/subscribed packages over the last week (just to make sure you
haven't missed anything)

2.5 Wave a flag

When you get assigned to a bug, a special e-mail should be sent so that you
can easily recognize it from mass of bug reports and other crap that makes
it way through my inbox each day.

2.6 Now just shut up! :)

With that all being said, it should be very easy to shut launchpad up

Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Jonathan Marsden]

Christian Robottom Reis wrote:

> In reality [performance] was an overall goal, and one which we did 
> pursue with a
> vengeance. The number of timeouts dropped to under 10 a day (!!) for the
> whole site over the 3.0 release, and dozens of pages which issues O(n)
> queries were fixed.

Cool!  Sincere thanks for the info.  That wasn't at all evident from the 
feature list that was presented here (the one that started this discussion).

Is there a place where LP performance issues are measured and displayed, 
online, for public view?  Maybe a comparison of the previous codebase(s) 
vs. the 3.0 codebase on several representative queries could be graphed, 
or something?  Then performance goals for the next version could be 
discussed, and added, with some defined metrics and history to base them on?

> I do get the message: it's still not fast enough;
> however that does not mean that we haven't worked hard at improving it.

OK.  All I had to go on was my personal (recent) experience with LP, and 
the list of proposed features that started this discussion.  Sounds like 
I may have unwittingly missed reading about the recent performance 
improvements ... where *should* I have read about them?  Can you provide 
a URL?

>> Indeed. Was the question "Should the next release of LP be primarily
>> about new features, or about performance, or about bug fixes?" seriously
>> addressed early in the development cycle of LP 3.0?
>
> It /is/ being addressed as we speak, and that's one of the reasons this
> conversation is important to me.

Great!  THANKYOU!  The list of features offered did not give me that 
impression, or I misunderstood it, or both.  Perhaps the LP team would 
get more encouraging responses if others could "see" that this kind of 
discussion is indeed happening?  Is there a way to make it more visible?

> On the other hand, the feedback I get,
> despite me asking otherwise, doesn't really give me much to work on --

I can't resist: consistency, performance, and bug fixes: that's really 
rather a *lot* to work on, if you ask me :-)

> there is too much talking down our process, where what I am looking for
> is more encouraging feedback.

Apologies if I've depressed or offended anyone by expressing an honest 
opinion.  That wasn't my intent at all!  As I said at the start of my 
earlier post, I'm just a newcomer... so do ignore me if I am just a 
negative drag on LP!

Sometimes in project development, the views of a newcomer, a relative 
outsider, can help provide a perspective that the insiders, oldtimers 
and developers with solid technical knowledge of internal details, etc. 
may not themselves have.  That is the spirit in which I posted.  I *am* 
encouraged that this level of discussion is happening, which it didn't 
initially appear to be, based on the original feature list and request 
made on this mailing list.

I suspect that you'd get more useful feedback about LP if you asked this 
community the kind of more general questions about LP that I have tried 
to raise, rather than (only) presenting a list of features to 
prioritize.  Whether that feedback would be encouraging or not... that's 
a rather different question, and the answer may depend on what you 
define as encouraging.  In one sense, just the fact that people respond 
at all, taking the time to provide feedback, could be encouraging to the 
LP team -- it means that LP is a software product that is important to 
people!

Thanks for listening,

Jonathan

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Christian Robottom Reis]

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 06:04:21PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> Personally, I think the user feedback that I'm seeing is very clear.  
> Unfortunately it doesn't seem to match up with what is already decided so 
> it will likely be discounted and ignored.

Nothing is decided. We're only now starting the 3.0 discussion.
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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Sarah Hobbs]

Scott Kitterman wrote:
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:23:06 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On the other hand, the feedback I get,

despite me asking otherwise, doesn't really give me much to work on --
there is too much talking down our process, where what I am looking for
is more encouraging feedback.


I think what you are getting is honest feedback about frustration with 
Launchpad.  I think that if people liked it better you'd get more 
encouraging feedback if it was faster, the U/I was more stable, and distro 
develpment work was better supported.


Scott K

I'm in agreement with ScottK here - How, exactly, are you supposed to 
put a positive spin on things like bad performance, needing the tool 
that is critical to Ubuntu to actually work / be stable / not break 
other tools, etc?


That being said, well done for getting the incremental improvements 
done.  Good luck on fixing the rest!


Hobbsee



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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Scott Kitterman]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:23:06 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On the other hand, the feedback I get,
>despite me asking otherwise, doesn't really give me much to work on --
>there is too much talking down our process, where what I am looking for
>is more encouraging feedback.

I think what you are getting is honest feedback about frustration with 
Launchpad.  I think that if people liked it better you'd get more 
encouraging feedback if it was faster, the U/I was more stable, and distro 
develpment work was better supported.

Scott K

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Scott Kitterman]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:11:01 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 06:04:21PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> Personally, I think the user feedback that I'm seeing is very clear.  
>> Unfortunately it doesn't seem to match up with what is already decided 
so 
>> it will likely be discounted and ignored.
>
>Nothing is decided. We're only now starting the 3.0 discussion.

OK.  

I think I've given a clear picture of where I stand.  We'll see how it 
turns out.

Scott K

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Scott Kitterman]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:28:02 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 02:41:22AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> I idled in #Launchpad for quite somee time after the latest U/I shuffle. 
 I 
>> saw a lot of people show up to complain.  I only saw two people (not 
>> involved in Launchpad development) speak in favor of it.  I've heard a 
lot 
>> of negative sentiment about it in Ubuntu channels too.
>
>I also hear a lot of negative commentary about pretty much every piece
>of software, daily -- including Ubuntu. It's a fact that if you
>have a wide enough user base, changing any piece of software is
>disruptive. I know people are inconvenienced; that's not helping me
>much to do avoid doing so in the future.
>
>> Since your process did not seek feedback on these gloabal issues, I find 
it 
>> unsuprising you didn't get much.
>
>It didn't? I'm actually actively collecting global issues as I talk to
>everybody in the community. It just doesn't go into the per-team
>priority lists (though it's pretty much the only thing I've sent out in
>list form) -- because it is actually cross-team.

Well there was discussion about U/I and performance on both MOTU and QA 
(the only two places I participated) and I eecall people suggesting we 
should comment on either because we weren't asked for comment on them in 
the list.  It's clear to me that at least in those groups your methodology 
undersamples dissatisfaction in thses areas.

I can deal with a U/I of pretty much arbitrary complexity and oddness if it 
is stable.  Launchpad is not a pre-1.0 developmental tool that developers 
should feel free to arbitrarily change.  I actually prefer working with 
Bugzilla currently because even though it has a horrible U/I, I at least 
consistently know how it works.

As far as user inconvenience goes, I'm lacking any sense that that is a 
concern for Launchpad developers.  Most of the feedback I see in the thread 
and similar ones is 'please give us some stability and focus on fixing the 
bugs in the U/I and making it faster'.

Personally, I think the user feedback that I'm seeing is very clear.  
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to match up with what is already decided so 
it will likely be discounted and ignored.

Scott K

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Christian Robottom Reis]

On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 02:22:55PM -0700, Jonathan Marsden wrote:
> I'm just a newcomer to the world of Ubuntu development and Launchpad,  
> but I agree 100%.  When 'ordinary' pages in LP say things like:
>
>  at least 77 queries issued in 7.48 seconds
>
> (that was for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu a few moments ago) there  
> would seem to be a *significant* performance issue. Yet improving  
> performance seemingly did not even appear on the list of proposed  
> features for 3.0 at all.  Why not?  Are there currently any stated  

In reality it was an overall goal, and one which we did pursue with a
vengeance. The number of timeouts dropped to under 10 a day (!!) for the
whole site over the 3.0 release, and dozens of pages which issues O(n)
queries were fixed. I do get the message: it's still not fast enough;
however that does not mean that we haven't worked hard at improving it.
And 77 queries is actually not that bad; using an ORM with a full
security model you're hard pressed to display as much information as we
do without a cross-request cache.

> Indeed.  Was the question "Should the next release of LP be primarily  
> about new features, or about performance, or about bug fixes?" seriously  
> addressed early in the development cycle of LP 3.0?

It /is/ being addressed as we speak, and that's one of the reasons this
conversation is important to me. On the other hand, the feedback I get,
despite me asking otherwise, doesn't really give me much to work on --
there is too much talking down our process, where what I am looking for
is more encouraging feedback.
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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Christian Robottom Reis]

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 02:41:22AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> I idled in #Launchpad for quite somee time after the latest U/I shuffle.  I 
> saw a lot of people show up to complain.  I only saw two people (not 
> involved in Launchpad development) speak in favor of it.  I've heard a lot 
> of negative sentiment about it in Ubuntu channels too.

I also hear a lot of negative commentary about pretty much every piece
of software, daily -- including Ubuntu. It's a fact that if you
have a wide enough user base, changing any piece of software is
disruptive. I know people are inconvenienced; that's not helping me
much to do avoid doing so in the future.

> Since your process did not seek feedback on these gloabal issues, I find it 
> unsuprising you didn't get much.

It didn't? I'm actually actively collecting global issues as I talk to
everybody in the community. It just doesn't go into the per-team
priority lists (though it's pretty much the only thing I've sent out in
list form) -- because it is actually cross-team.
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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Christian Robottom Reis]

On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 12:38:02PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> >The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
> >your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
> >signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
> >covered.
> 
> Was there a request for input on the global priorities that I missed?

No, and perhaps "common themes" would be a better name than "global
priorities". I collected these common themes from everybody's individual
feedback. Performance was the big #1 global issue; global UI complexity
was only mentioned by you and one other. I have written it down, though.
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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Scott Kitterman]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:43:24 +0200 Reinhard Tartler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>Christian Robottom Reis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> A final note to MOTU specifically following upon the "varied feedback"
>> point I made above. We really do want your feedback. However, it makes
>> /my/ work much less effective when the feedback we do get is conflicting
>> or negative.  Presenting balanced, consistent guidance to my team is the
>> best way for you to ensure we do what you want -- I know it's hard, but
>> it's really the right way to do it.
>
>I can only support this. Please, fellow MOTUs, the launchpad guys
>explicitly ask us for feedback so that they can plan their work. They do
>want to work with us, so let's take this oppurtunity and talk
>constructively to each other.

I guess I don't see it.  There was no feedback requested that really gets at 
the issues that 
trouble me most. I keep hearing distro development will be a priority, but 
don't see signs of 
it.  

This isn't the first time I hear from Launchpad developers about only wanting 
to hear good 
news.  

Scott K

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Scott Kitterman]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:03:24 +0200 Reinhard Tartler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>Scott Kitterman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>>>The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
>>>your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
>>>signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
>>>covered.
>>
>> Was there a request for input on the global priorities that I missed?
>
>No. The list of soyuz specs was rather short (compared to the list of
>malone), and the things that were relevant for motu was pretty easy to
>identify, IMO. That's why I didn't request for input on that list.

Which explains the signed PPA issue, but for the meta issues like speed and 
U/I not so good, they didn't seek input AFAIK.  

Scott K

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Scott Kitterman]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 13:45:51 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 12:38:02PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> >The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
>> >your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
>> >signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
>> >covered.
>> 
>> Was there a request for input on the global priorities that I missed?
>
>No, and perhaps "common themes" would be a better name than "global
>priorities". I collected these common themes from everybody's individual
>feedback. Performance was the big #1 global issue; global UI complexity
>was only mentioned by you and one other. I have written it down, though.

I idled in #Launchpad for quite somee time after the latest U/I shuffle.  I 
saw a lot of people show up to complain.  I only saw two people (not 
involved in Launchpad development) speak in favor of it.  I've heard a lot 
of negative sentiment about it in Ubuntu channels too.

Since your process did not seek feedback on these gloabal issues, I find it 
unsuprising you didn't get much.

Scott K

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Jonathan Marsden]

Jordan Mantha wrote:

> For us Launchpad is a *critical* tool
> to our work, so in a lot of respects we're more interesting with
> existing feature working well than adding new features. I'm personally
> be more interested in getting Launchpad to do the basics/fundamentals
> (uploading, bugs, speed) correctly before adding any new features.

I'm just a newcomer to the world of Ubuntu development and Launchpad, 
but I agree 100%.  When 'ordinary' pages in LP say things like:

  at least 77 queries issued in 7.48 seconds

(that was for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu a few moments ago) there 
would seem to be a *significant* performance issue. Yet improving 
performance seemingly did not even appear on the list of proposed 
features for 3.0 at all.  Why not?  Are there currently any stated 
(public) performance goals for LP?  How does LP currently measure up to 
those goals, if they do exist?  The existence of the "at least X queries 
in Y seconds" comment suggests that at some stage, performance was 
considered worth measuring... I submit that it remains very much worth 
measuring, and improving.

Perhaps "No commonly used LP Bugs page should take more than 3 seconds 
to be delivered to the user, on the official Ubuntu instantiation of LP" 
would be a starting point?  Maybe something like "No more than 20 
database queries per page" wouldn't hurt, either?  These are clear, 
simple, and measurable goals.  Meeting these two goals would, in my 
view, do more for most MOTUs than implementing twenty of the proposed 
features on the list!

Yes, the current UI may well have some issues, or be a source of 
contention.  Yes, there may well be more features that would be handy to 
have, that are not yet implemented.  But surely, a reliable, performant 
and consistent LP would be *far* more valuable than an unreliable, slow, 
and rapidly changing tool, for many LP users.  Re-ordering a long list 
of proposed new LP features will not change this at all.

> The second thing I think needs to be brought up is that it seems like
> we're being consulted at the wrong time and that the feedback is
> acquired at the wrong time. 

Indeed.  Was the question "Should the next release of LP be primarily 
about new features, or about performance, or about bug fixes?" seriously 
addressed early in the development cycle of LP 3.0?  Was input from 
MOTUs and the developer community sought and used at that stage?  Why, 
or why not?  IMO, this is more important than any particular feature or 
list of new features.  If it is too late to address this now, can we 
respectfully ask the LP development community to please consider 
changing their process as a whole, so that it *does* get asked and 
addressed appropriately in the next LP release cycle, and in all future 
LP development cycles?

Jonathan


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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Jordan Mantha]

On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 6:57 AM, Christian Robottom Reis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 05:15:21PM +0200, Reinhard Tartler wrote:
>> My current impression is that the list of specs is too long.
>
> Thanks for following up and providing us with input. The point you make
> above is dear to me -- we do really have lots of work to do. This ties
> into another point you make:
>
>> Having said this, I have a urgent plea: If you implement a spec, please,
>> pretty please think about who is going to be affected by a change, and
>> talk to them before starting to change launchpad. Any change that has
>> the potential to have an effect on workflows we already agreed on is
>> very likely to cause confusion and anti-sentiments. This already has
>> happened in the past, unfortunately. And the answers I received so far
>> support these observations.
>
> I've struggled with this over the past two years, and in less than a
> year we will be open sourced. I understand that existing end-users are
> very much affected by changes, but on the other hand, we need to change
> Launchpad in order to make it better. On top of that, when we do get
> feedback it is very varied -- some users really like the changes, but
> others, not that much. Additionally, if you've read `Don't Shoot the
> Dog', you'll understand me when I say that the negative feedback we do
> get doesn't encourage us to seek out more!

I'd like to reiterate what Reinhard has said about Ubuntu developer's
needing consistency. Almost *every* aspect of Ubuntu development uses
Launchpad to some extent and many processes rely completely on
consistent usage of Launchpad. For us Launchpad is a *critical* tool
to our work, so in a lot of respects we're more interesting with
existing feature working well than adding new features. I'm personally
be more interested in getting Launchpad to do the basics/fundamentals
(uploading, bugs, speed) correctly before adding any new features.
Basically put, it's annoying and disruptive for  Ubuntu to be the beta
testers/guinea pigs for Launchpad development.

The second thing I think needs to be brought up is that it seems like
we're being consulted at the wrong time and that the feedback is
acquired at the wrong time. What Reinhard's talking about, I think, is
that it would be good if Launchpad devs interacted with us at the
design level. Sure, we can see what's going to be released, and we're
able to give prioritization of existing lists, but that's not really
the main issue. The main issue is that the feedback is much too late,
so much so as to make it virtually impossible for our feedback to make
any significant dent in the development momentum. Even when things
we'd like to see are getting implemented, often enough the
implementation is not consistent with how we'd like to use Launchpad.

-Jordan

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Reinhard Tartler]

Christian Robottom Reis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I've struggled with this over the past two years, and in less than a
> year we will be open sourced. I understand that existing end-users are
> very much affected by changes, but on the other hand, we need to change
> Launchpad in order to make it better. On top of that, when we do get
> feedback it is very varied -- some users really like the changes, but
> others, not that much. Additionally, if you've read `Don't Shoot the
> Dog', you'll understand me when I say that the negative feedback we do
> get doesn't encourage us to seek out more!
>
> I have been thinking about ways of getting better input into what's
> being changed in Launchpad. One thing that hurts us is that we do want
> to keep our rate of change high, and any process around making a change
> affects it.

And I think here we have a clash. Developers need to rely on their
tools. They need to have confidence that the software and infrastructure
behaves exactly as expected. A C Programmer will be very annoyed if a
program suddenly doesn't compile or even worse: works in subtle other
ways. In Ubuntu, we are pretty much dependent on launchpad for pretty
much everything. We have quite some contributors, that work on a high
volume set of tasks, and changes to their tools (which includes UI) is
something that disturbes their 'normal workflow'.

On the other hand, I can of course understand that the launchpad crew
wants to improve launchpad and that changes need to be done. The best we
can do is to listen to each others and talk about things that really
annoy us.

> Our milestone lists are very public and it is today possible
> to subscribe to a milestone and get notifications to bugs added and
> removed from it. So it would not be impossible to keep track of what's
> changing in Launchpad -- unfortunately, I think the traffic and level of
> detail may not be for everybody.

That's an excellent point! This enables us to be notified about upcoming
changes, which solves one part of the problem I'm talking about.

> A final note to MOTU specifically following upon the "varied feedback"
> point I made above. We really do want your feedback. However, it makes
> /my/ work much less effective when the feedback we do get is conflicting
> or negative.  Presenting balanced, consistent guidance to my team is the
> best way for you to ensure we do what you want -- I know it's hard, but
> it's really the right way to do it.

I can only support this. Please, fellow MOTUs, the launchpad guys
explicitly ask us for feedback so that they can plan their work. They do
want to work with us, so let's take this oppurtunity and talk
constructively to each other.

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Reinhard Tartler]

Scott Kitterman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>>The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
>>your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
>>signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
>>covered.
>
> Was there a request for input on the global priorities that I missed?

No. The list of soyuz specs was rather short (compared to the list of
malone), and the things that were relevant for motu was pretty easy to
identify, IMO. That's why I didn't request for input on that list.
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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Scott Kitterman]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 12:11:25 -0300 Christian Robottom Reis 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 11:03:29AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>> I understand that this was a very difficult task and as far as it goes, 
I 
>> like generally the list.  I find it unfortunate that you limited your 
>> response to prioritizing the list you were given as the Launchpad 
>> developer's list does not include what I consider the most important 
issues 
>> that prevent using Launchpad from being a productive/enjoyable activity 
for 
>> me.
>
>The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
>your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
>signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
>covered.

Was there a request for input on the global priorities that I missed?

Scott K

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Christian Robottom Reis]

On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 05:15:21PM +0200, Reinhard Tartler wrote:
> My current impression is that the list of specs is too long.

Thanks for following up and providing us with input. The point you make
above is dear to me -- we do really have lots of work to do. This ties
into another point you make:

> Having said this, I have a urgent plea: If you implement a spec, please,
> pretty please think about who is going to be affected by a change, and
> talk to them before starting to change launchpad. Any change that has
> the potential to have an effect on workflows we already agreed on is
> very likely to cause confusion and anti-sentiments. This already has
> happened in the past, unfortunately. And the answers I received so far
> support these observations.

I've struggled with this over the past two years, and in less than a
year we will be open sourced. I understand that existing end-users are
very much affected by changes, but on the other hand, we need to change
Launchpad in order to make it better. On top of that, when we do get
feedback it is very varied -- some users really like the changes, but
others, not that much. Additionally, if you've read `Don't Shoot the
Dog', you'll understand me when I say that the negative feedback we do
get doesn't encourage us to seek out more!

I have been thinking about ways of getting better input into what's
being changed in Launchpad. One thing that hurts us is that we do want
to keep our rate of change high, and any process around making a change
affects it. Our milestone lists are very public and it is today possible
to subscribe to a milestone and get notifications to bugs added and
removed from it. So it would not be impossible to keep track of what's
changing in Launchpad -- unfortunately, I think the traffic and level of
detail may not be for everybody.

One thing that will change for 3.0 is that our priority lists will be
publically available and you will be able to tell from them (and the
milestone) what is likely to be worked on in the near future. I would
like to find a good process to invite feedback on our changes. The
immediate thing that comes to mind is a period notification reminding
users of the current priority list and milestones. We could send one out
once a milestone. Does that sound like a good idea, or too much detail?
And who is the right channel and audience for such a notification?

A final note to MOTU specifically following upon the "varied feedback"
point I made above. We really do want your feedback. However, it makes
/my/ work much less effective when the feedback we do get is conflicting
or negative.  Presenting balanced, consistent guidance to my team is the
best way for you to ensure we do what you want -- I know it's hard, but
it's really the right way to do it.
-- 
Christian Robottom Reis | http://async.com.br/~kiko/ | [+55 16] 3376 0125

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Christian Robottom Reis]

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 11:03:29AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> I understand that this was a very difficult task and as far as it goes, I 
> like generally the list.  I find it unfortunate that you limited your 
> response to prioritizing the list you were given as the Launchpad 
> developer's list does not include what I consider the most important issues 
> that prevent using Launchpad from being a productive/enjoyable activity for 
> me.

The list Reinhard discussed with you was related to Bugs. I've taken
your second bits of feedback into account for our global priorities, but
signed PPAs were also his #1 pick for the Soyuz list, so you're well
covered.
-- 
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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Scott Kitterman]

I understand that this was a very difficult task and as far as it goes, I 
like generally the list.  I find it unfortunate that you limited your 
response to prioritizing the list you were given as the Launchpad 
developer's list does not include what I consider the most important issues 
that prevent using Launchpad from being a productive/enjoyable activity for 
me.

In addition to your list I would ask them to consider (I would place all 
these items higher than anything on their list)

1.  Signed PPAs (this may be already planned pre-3.0).  For me, I will not 
use PPAs until this is fixed.

2.  Faster.  As a design goal, aim to have all page delivered to the client 
in less than one second.  I recognize this will be a substantial technical 
challenge, but it is the biggest barrier I have to productivity on 
Launchpad.  I believe there are studies that suggest one second is the 
threshold for user annoyance.  I think it's about right for me (I'd love 
500 milliseconds, but I doubt that's doable).

3.  Stable and clear U/I.  As I've said many time before, I feel the 
Launchpad U/I has been getting harder and harder to understand and use.  
The current one is substantially worse than 1.0 and 1.0 was substantially 
worse than the pre-beta U/I (I know it was a tables based hack, but that 
irrelevant to look and feel).  If you aren't going to make it better, at 
least please stop the churn.  

Scott K

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Reinhard Tartler]

Hello Kiko, hi fellow MOTUs,

This has taken significantly longer than I had expected, but find below
the prioritized select of the list the Launchpad developers gave me. I
tried to incorporate all comments from all submissions I got. Please
don't be too surprised to hear that I got rather few
submissions. Moreover, since I didn't apply a proper voting system, and
most of the submissions rather expressed their opinion on the points, I
had to decide on my own on the exact prioritisation. This wasn't an easy
task at all, and I really had sleep one or two night over some
comments, but anyway, here we go (first is the most important one):


 - Fix issues with bug nominations discussed at UDS || 
[https://launchpad.net/bugs/253597 Bug 253597], 
[https://launchpad.net/bugs/253600 bug 253600], 
[https://launchpad.net/bugs/253608 bug 253608], 
[https://launchpad.net/bugs/253612 bug 253612], 
[https://launchpad.net/bugs/110195 bug 110195], 
[https://launchpad.net/bugs/253610 bug 253610] ||
 - /CompleteActivityLog || Ensuring bug activity captures all bug changes ||
 - [wiki:Self:/ActivityLogInterleaving Bug Activity UI Interleaving] || 
Displaying activity in the comments view ||
 - /TagDiscipline || Actually using OfficialBugTags for something! ||
 - /IgnoreSubscriptionsRevenge || Unsubscribing implicit subscribers from 
specific bugs ||
 - Flip Incomplete to New || Automatically flip bugs from Incomplete when 
information is provided. ||
 - /CaptureDistroSeriesWhenFilingBugs || UI to allow the user to say "I don't 
know/Hardy/Intrepid/..." ||
 - Email first-time bug-reporters || A welcome message and guide to triaging 
process ||
 - MaloneMeToo || Being able to say and record "this bug affects me to" ||
 - /FixingIrrelevantComments || Marking and hiding irrelevant comments. See  
bug 220535. ||
 - Package-specific reporting guidelines || Bonus points for a syntax for 
including screenshots  ||
 - Negated Tags in Searches || Allow searching for bugs with some tags, but 
without others ||
 - Specific status change UI || Guide people to our intended workflow; allow 
people to add a comment and click a button to do a certain status transition ||
 - Proactive bug imports || Enabling complete syncs from plugin-enabled sites ||
 - Import a remote bug UI || One-push importing and task-annotation from 
Debbugs & Bugzilla ||


-- 
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Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4


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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Reinhard Tartler]

Hello kiko, hello fellow MOTUs


I did receive some answers, thanks to everyone who has contributed so
far, all your comments will get considered and used to compile a big
picture!

However, I'm sorry to say that I didn't manage to compile prioritised
list that the launchpad crew asked us to do, yet. I don't have the
feeling that we enough answers to form a representative opinion on what
specs the launchpad crew should work on next, so I'd suggest that we
leave people a bit more time to discuss the list I've sent around.

Moreover, I'll be away from net for vacation starting on tomorrow. I've
therefore asked Stefan Potyra to complete the task and forwarded him all
emails that you have sent me so far, I hope this is OK for
everyone. Please send further lists and comments to him.

My current impression is that the list of specs is too long. The answers
I received so far show a very mixed picture. There were quite some
fearful comments about some specs (like the "Sorry, you aren't
experienced enough to be allowed to report a bug"-spec), where I think
that there is mainly misunderstanding involved. We could of course try
to educate people more about the meaning of the various specs, but since
the launchpad guys need the list rather quickly, I'm not sure if it is
worth doing that.

Having said this, I have a urgent plea: If you implement a spec, please,
pretty please think about who is going to be affected by a change, and
talk to them before starting to change launchpad. Any change that has
the potential to have an effect on workflows we already agreed on is
very likely to cause confusion and anti-sentiments. This already has
happened in the past, unfortunately. And the answers I received so far
support these observations.

As a short mid-term summary, I've identified the following points as
pretty important so far:

 * Fixing bug nominations-related specs
 * Activity log-related specs
 * Performance (currently lp takes about 3(!) secs for a bug page)
 * Unsubscribe from implicit subscriptions

The list is rather short, I agree. I do hope that this email will be
received as a 2nd call for help. Ideally our teams that are heavy users
of launchpad bugs can discuss themselves what things of the list they
would like to see implemented rather sooner than later.

Thanks for reading this and your contributions so far. Now, I'm handing
over to Stefan, who has thankfully agreed to take over until I
return.

See you all soon!

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Michael Casadevall]

Recent work on REVU already exists into linking it against the PPA (it's
almost at a working prototype stage, but I'm suffering a case of coders
block). We're already done work to link REVU, and Launchpad's logins, as
well as somewhat streamline the entire process.
Michael

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Marcelo Boveto Shima <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm not a motu but I want to give my opinion on this. I tried several times
> the revu
> process but without success. This was because the review took so long (a
> month)
> that I always give up. I've uploaded azureus, synce (others related),
> omnibook
> (driver for my notebook), and the last were virt-manager and libvirt (both
> adopted by
> a debian maintainer, with corrections of corse)
>
> I know the Motu team doesn't have enought man power. So revu process should
>
> became easier by integrating it into launchpad. Launchpad already has PPA
> (builds the
> package with lintian checks, creates necessary debdiff and can have tests
> if the
> package works for users) so an option "Propose for Ubuntu" that puts the
> package
> with all necessary information into a queue for review. This would be a
> killer feature for
> merges and little corrections. Would be nice to have approved count
> exclusive to motu
> on this queue.
>
> Regards,
> Marcelo
>
> On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Sarah Hobbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Cesare Tirabassi wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday 01 August 2008 09:28:49 you wrote:
>>>
>>> The most important from me is not on the list, and that would be to have
>>> the source package information back on the bug page (as it was before).
>>> Its pretty annoying having to change to other pages just to see if that
>>> package is in universe or not, what is the current version and who uploaded
>>> it last.
>>>
>>
>> Various of us have expressed severe objections to this.
>>
>> However, it is still on a tooltip - mouse over the name of the package on
>> the bug.  Not very discoverable - I only found out, as mpt told me about it.
>>
>> Hobbsee
>>
>>
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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Marcelo Boveto Shima]

Hi,

I'm not a motu but I want to give my opinion on this. I tried several times
the revu
process but without success. This was because the review took so long (a
month)
that I always give up. I've uploaded azureus, synce (others related),
omnibook
(driver for my notebook), and the last were virt-manager and libvirt (both
adopted by
a debian maintainer, with corrections of corse)

I know the Motu team doesn't have enought man power. So revu process should
became easier by integrating it into launchpad. Launchpad already has PPA
(builds the
package with lintian checks, creates necessary debdiff and can have tests if
the
package works for users) so an option "Propose for Ubuntu" that puts the
package
with all necessary information into a queue for review. This would be a
killer feature for
merges and little corrections. Would be nice to have approved count
exclusive to motu
on this queue.

Regards,
Marcelo

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Sarah Hobbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Cesare Tirabassi wrote:
>
>> On Friday 01 August 2008 09:28:49 you wrote:
>>
>> The most important from me is not on the list, and that would be to have
>> the source package information back on the bug page (as it was before).
>> Its pretty annoying having to change to other pages just to see if that
>> package is in universe or not, what is the current version and who uploaded
>> it last.
>>
>
> Various of us have expressed severe objections to this.
>
> However, it is still on a tooltip - mouse over the name of the package on
> the bug.  Not very discoverable - I only found out, as mpt told me about it.
>
> Hobbsee
>
>
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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Sarah Hobbs]

Cesare Tirabassi wrote:

On Friday 01 August 2008 09:28:49 you wrote:

The most important from me is not on the list, and that would be to have the 
source package information back on the bug page (as it was before).
Its pretty annoying having to change to other pages just to see if that 
package is in universe or not, what is the current version and who uploaded 
it last.


Various of us have expressed severe objections to this.

However, it is still on a tooltip - mouse over the name of the package 
on the bug.  Not very discoverable - I only found out, as mpt told me 
about it.


Hobbsee



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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Scott Kitterman]

On Friday 01 August 2008 06:04, Cesare Tirabassi wrote:
> On Friday 01 August 2008 09:28:49 you wrote:
>
> The most important from me is not on the list...
>
> All the others I don't really care about; they are mostly annoying things
> lost in a sea of annoying things (which to me is a clear sign that they
> have no clue about what is really important in a distro bug tracker from a
> developer pov).

I find myself in a similar position.  I will have to think on this.  My 
initial reach reaction for much of that list ranges from "Who cares" 
to "Please, $DEITY, no".

First on my list would be page load times fast enough that I don't feel it's 
better to take the trouble to manually type in a URL than click to the page 
if the page is more than one click away through their U/I.

I'll have to think on this.

Scott K

P.S.  For those that don't know, there's an html comment embedded at the end 
of every Launchpad page that lists how many (known) database queries the page 
needed and how long the database part of the process took.  Grabbing the 
first bug page I could find that I had open already it said:




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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Cesare Tirabassi]

On Friday 01 August 2008 12:50:29 you wrote:
> Cesare Tirabassi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> This sounds rather like a bug than a spec to me. Is there already a
> bugnumber for it? If not, can you please file a bug and tell me the number?

I have no idea if there is a bug already filed for this. Manually scanning 
1200+ bugs is not an option and, as you know, searching for bugs containing 
keywords (I tried source with/without info and couldn't get anywhere) never 
works for me (usually, I can find more relevant LP bugs via google than via 
LP itself).
Assuming there isn't, I will file one and let you have the bug number.
Note that wgrant pointed out to me that there are now tooltips to give some of 
this information (thanks wgrant), but in my opinion this is just a 
palliative. When I actually need to use this info what should I do, write it 
down on a piece of paper? And the tooltip disappear anyway after few seconds.

> As far as I understand it, you can say "here is a bug in debbugs, it
> also affects ubuntu, please import all comments, status, etc from
> debbugs to launchpad and auto create a 'forwarded bugtask'."

OK, don't, please don't. The way I understand it this is likely to create more 
confusion than solve any real issue.

> The best we can do is to document (using bug numbers) and group (using
> tags) the annoying things. This is work, obviously, but I don't see
> another way how to get further on this issue.

>From my own experience, raising bugs in LP about LP is as much effective as 
trying to empty the ocean with a (leaking) bucket.
IMHO adding the homepage in the source package info would be a big help 
(assuming we can get that back to the bug page). When I need to check 
upstream (maybe its an update, maybe to see if a bug has been filed already 
there or fixed in their VCS) the only solution that I know of to do it 
through LP is to gunzip the diff.gz. Again, I could not find if such a 
request was filed already and knowing that the effect of raising such bugs 
tends to zero I was never motivated to do it myself (beside, I just use 
apt-cache).
Now you tell me we should do it, fine, I will, and let me see how far we go 
with these.

Cesare

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Reinhard Tartler]

Cesare Tirabassi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> On Friday 01 August 2008 09:28:49 you wrote:
>
> The most important from me is not on the list, and that would be to have the 
> source package information back on the bug page (as it was before).
> Its pretty annoying having to change to other pages just to see if that 
> package is in universe or not, what is the current version and who uploaded 
> it last.

This sounds rather like a bug than a spec to me. Is there already a
bugnumber for it? If not, can you please file a bug and tell me the number?

> For this:
>
>> ||   || bug imports || Enabling complete syncs from plugin-enabled sites ||
>
> If that means the ability for MOTU to manually sync, than this is a 15, 
> otherwise what the heck is this?

As far as I understand it, you can say "here is a bug in debbugs, it
also affects ubuntu, please import all comments, status, etc from
debbugs to launchpad and auto create a 'forwarded bugtask'."

> All the others I don't really care about; they are mostly annoying things 
> lost 
> in a sea of annoying things (which to me is a clear sign that they have no 
> clue about what is really important in a distro bug tracker from a developer 
> pov).

They also admit that they don't have a clue what we as developers really
need. That's why they are offering us means to prioritze the work, and I
think we should take that offer.

The best we can do is to document (using bug numbers) and group (using
tags) the annoying things. This is work, obviously, but I don't see
another way how to get further on this issue.

-- 
Gruesse/greetings,
Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4

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Re: Proposed Features for Launchpad Bugs 3.0 - call for help!

[Cesare Tirabassi]

On Friday 01 August 2008 09:28:49 you wrote:

The most important from me is not on the list, and that would be to have the 
source package information back on the bug page (as it was before).
Its pretty annoying having to change to other pages just to see if that 
package is in universe or not, what is the current version and who uploaded 
it last.

For this:

> ||   || bug imports || Enabling complete syncs from plugin-enabled sites ||

If that means the ability for MOTU to manually sync, than this is a 15, 
otherwise what the heck is this?

All the others I don't really care about; they are mostly annoying things lost 
in a sea of annoying things (which to me is a clear sign that they have no 
clue about what is really important in a distro bug tracker from a developer 
pov).

> Thank you for you collaboration!

My pleasure,

Cesare

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