Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Alberto Salvia Novella:
I would like you to have a look at those, one by the other, and tell 
me which one do you prefer and why. Also, if this seems good to you, 
to tell what you would change from that chosen one. 


Alberto Salvia Novella:

Here you have the pages:
 - 
 

 - 
 



Because:

 * Nearly everyone I asked said they preferred the version with images.
 * These people insisted unison that images made them wanting to engage
   with the project, and the absence of those not doing so.
 * This includes the Ubuntu Documentation team members.
 * The points made against using images were of less priority than
   engagement and ease of use.
 * Using images isn't necessary incompatible with limited Internet
   resources and plain text readability when properly done.

I'm using visuals in all the content I'm creating.

On the other hand, I'm not pushing this into the bug documentation right 
now; but rather I'm building on the go a prototype of a bug triaging 
system 
 in 
the One Hundred Papercuts project, which basically is the same we have 
now but with:


 * Information broken into the smallest parts.
 * Visuals.
 * Redaction understandable by everyone.

The aim is to provide tools for fixing bugs not only for interested 
developers, but to any person that uses Ubuntu. Ideally this would mean 
that users will be willing and capable of fully triaging their bugs 
themselves, what probably would have the biggest impact in software 
quality at this moment.


Thank you.


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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Alberto Salvia Novella:

If you want to know, I have no special faith on using images at the
bottom of pages.


I do now.



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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

C de-Avillez:

I like the first image, at the top -- it highlights what the page is
talking about.

I see no need, though, for the image at the bottom.


Okay, so lets try something. I have created two versions of the same 
page, and one of them uses heavy non-explanatory graphic content only 
and the second doesn't.


I would like you to have a look at those, one by the other, and tell me 
which one do you prefer and why. Also, if this seems good to you, to 
tell what you would change from that chosen one.


If you can give me an opinion this way, I think we all could agree. But 
remember having both versions at view at the same time on your screen, 
or the experiment wouldn't be valid. This means you'll need a desktop 
with a wide screen or two screens.


Here you have the pages:
 - 

 - 



Thanks.



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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[C de-Avillez]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 10/10/14 21:01, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote:
> I have made a clean-up draft of 
>  on 
> .
> 
> Please, check if something is missing or can be improved.
> 
> Regards.

I like the first image, at the top -- it highlights what the page is
talking about.

I see no need, though, for the image at the bottom.

Cheers,

..C..

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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Elfy]

On 12/10/14 15:53, C de-Avillez wrote:

[snip]

YES, it is misrouted: BugSquad is responsible for keeping the triage
pages. By not addressing the BugSquad, you may be missing some
interested people.

Surely people should join mailing lists that are of interest to them ;)

Down that road - everyone is in one mailing list ...


NO, it is OK(ish): we discussed, some time ago, joining BugSquad and
Quality. At the time we thought of keeping the mailing lists and IRC
channels separate. I have been, lately, wondering if we should
consider a more radical approach.
I'm glad that the Bugsquad and Quality lists and IRC channel are kept 
seperate - while they might both be looking toward the same goal that 
doesn't necessarily equate to needing to be in the same place.




[ given that I am subscribed to both the busquad and quality ML, I do
not have loss of information; but I cannot state how many are in one
and not in the other.]


I wasn't subscribed to both - then when there was a move to join I 
subscribed to the bugsquad list too - I've not seen anything on that 
list that actually affects me nor what I need to know, I've now 
unsubscribed from the bugsquad list.


I would much rather that bugsquad conversation be kept to that list. 
This thread being a prime example ;)


I wouldn't post to the bugsquad list about issues pertaining to alpha, 
beta or rc images nor would I expect people on the bugsquad list to 
assume that would be place to find or discuss those issues




Reasoning: I personally have always seen triage as one aspect of
quality. This view, to be completely honest, is NOT shared between me
and the luminaries of QA (and the discussion of why is too long) but I
do not mind: I still think that they are inter-related.

Right now, the Yes/No ratio (to Alberto's question) is at around 60/40.
I'd disagree at the moment. Editing a bugsquad wiki page would surely be 
the province of the bugsquad.

[snip]




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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

C de-Avillez:

Right now, the Yes/No ratio (to Alberto's question) is at around 60/40.


Then, for the moment, I'll be writing to both of them.


C de-Avillez:
> Perhaps it is time to consider joining more of BugSquad to Quality.

It looks appropriate to me, because now they are sharing functions.



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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[C de-Avillez]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 11/10/14 21:10, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote:

> Thomas Ward:
>> Why are you posting this on the QA list instead of the bugsquad
>> list?
> 
> Because I thought the Bug-Squad team had joined the Quality team a
> long time ago, and was listed in Launchpad just for historical
> reasons. So is this a mistake?

Well. Yes, and no.

YES, it is misrouted: BugSquad is responsible for keeping the triage
pages. By not addressing the BugSquad, you may be missing some
interested people.

NO, it is OK(ish): we discussed, some time ago, joining BugSquad and
Quality. At the time we thought of keeping the mailing lists and IRC
channels separate. I have been, lately, wondering if we should
consider a more radical approach.

[ given that I am subscribed to both the busquad and quality ML, I do
not have loss of information; but I cannot state how many are in one
and not in the other.]

Reasoning: I personally have always seen triage as one aspect of
quality. This view, to be completely honest, is NOT shared between me
and the luminaries of QA (and the discussion of why is too long) but I
do not mind: I still think that they are inter-related.

Right now, the Yes/No ratio (to Alberto's question) is at around 60/40.

Perhaps it is time to consider joining more of BugSquad to Quality.

..C..


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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Thomas Ward:

Thanks for quoting an email sent directly to you, intentionally not
CC'd to the list, onto the list publicly.  I sent it to you directly
intentionally.  Glad you took my direct-to-you email and made it
public, thanks for that.

(You've lost points with me.)


This has been for mistake; as I normally rewrite the recipient to 
include the name of the list, not the email address only as it is filled 
by default.


It was late at night when I finished writing the message and I assumed 
we were handling this conversation publicly as usual, so I didn't even 
read what was written in the recipient field before substituting it.


And those points don't exist.



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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Thomas Ward]

Thanks for quoting an email sent directly to you, intentionally not
CC'd to the list, onto the list publicly.  I sent it to you directly
intentionally.  Glad you took my direct-to-you email and made it
public, thanks for that.

(You've lost points with me.)

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On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 10:10 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella
 wrote:
> Thomas Ward:
>>
>> BUT they do not add fluff images or unnecessary images.  They add
>> what's necessary.
>
>
> Not true. Check that they purposely add images that have no explanatory
> intention. I have already done, just in case I was mistaken.
>
> In fact my inspiration had been those books, not the Internet. And lately
> confirmed by common social media advice.
>
>
> Alberto Salvia Novella:
>> This is a topic I have been thinking for a while, and concluded I had
>> some vices. Probably Elfy has thought that we were about to fall in
>> those again, but I have at present abandoned the ideas that let to
>> them.
>
> Thomas Ward:
>> Apparently you haven't.  To quote you in your prior email in which i
>> said that...
>
> Elfy:
>> All it says to me is that Alberto has stopped littering mailing list
>> posts with emojii's and is now littering wiki pages with images.
>
> Alberto Salvia Novella:
>> Non-logic, evasive and manipulative speaking.
>
> The answer is this emotional manipulation was very dangerous to the
> conversation and needed to be spotted. Since the language was very
> inappropriate I chose clarity over diplomacy, as anything else would had
> made the conversation to fall into the manipulation; or worse, into the idea
> I deserve being treated like that.
>
>
> Thomas Ward:
>> NOBODY likes public threads getting dirty and attacking of others.
>> This isn't the first time I've observed this coming from you two, and
>> it's likely to not be the last.
>
> As I said, I'm over getting that personal.
>
>
> Thomas Ward:
>> You've made the decision yourself on your own to improve the
>> documentation, and that's fine.
>
> No, the decisions I have made had been over a proposal; and they are only
> meant to go into the documentation after there's polishing and consensus
> over them. The goal had been to have a prototype, where approaches could be
> tested just in time.
>
>
> Thomas Ward:
>> You may be trying to 'improve' it, but you're not accepting the
>> criticism that you're asking for from the community, NOR are you
>> understanding the points I'm trying to make with regards to visual
>> engagement in posts (whether it be wikis, or anything else).
>
> So why I'm writing now in plain text only?
>
> The only two suggestions that I have not implemented from all the amount I
> have received had been:
>
>  - Not using pictographs in wiki-pages, just because I have not decided on
> it yet; as probably would be a better moment to do when Utopic is released
> and pictographs are supported by default in Ubuntu.
>
>  - Not using some kinds of images in wiki-pages, as we have just started the
> conversation!
>
> Even the redaction style in wiki-pages is the way people asked to be.
>
>
> Thomas Ward:
>> To that end, you're not accepting the criticism that multiple users
>> currently do not agree with some of the images used - mainly that
>> you're adding fluff.
>
> Converting documentation into a playground is a sift, and people can be
> resistant to that. So specifically in this regard I want to make sure points
> of view are based on deliberation rather than rejection by default of
> unknown approaches.
>
> If you want to know, I have no special faith on using images at the bottom
> of pages. What I'm mostly cautious is that small decision being taken away
> by the status quo, as it defines a style of decision talking itself.
>
> The status quo of learning is text, the same as the status quo of Unix is
> "man". It doesn't mean these are bad, but they are the default.
>
>
> Thomas Ward:
>> Why are you posting this on the QA list instead of the bugsquad list?
>
> Because I thought the Bug-Squad team had joined the Quality team a long time
> ago, and was listed in Launchpad just for historical reasons. So is this a
> mistake?
>
>
> Good night.
>
>
>
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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Thomas Ward:

BUT they do not add fluff images or unnecessary images.  They add
what's necessary.


Not true. Check that they purposely add images that have no explanatory 
intention. I have already done, just in case I was mistaken.


In fact my inspiration had been those books, not the Internet. And 
lately confirmed by common social media advice.



Alberto Salvia Novella:
> This is a topic I have been thinking for a while, and concluded I had
> some vices. Probably Elfy has thought that we were about to fall in
> those again, but I have at present abandoned the ideas that let to
> them.

Thomas Ward:
> Apparently you haven't.  To quote you in your prior email in which i
> said that...

Elfy:
> All it says to me is that Alberto has stopped littering mailing list
> posts with emojii's and is now littering wiki pages with images.

Alberto Salvia Novella:
> Non-logic, evasive and manipulative speaking.

The answer is this emotional manipulation was very dangerous to the 
conversation and needed to be spotted. Since the language was very 
inappropriate I chose clarity over diplomacy, as anything else would had 
made the conversation to fall into the manipulation; or worse, into the 
idea I deserve being treated like that.



Thomas Ward:
> NOBODY likes public threads getting dirty and attacking of others.
> This isn't the first time I've observed this coming from you two, and
> it's likely to not be the last.

As I said, I'm over getting that personal.


Thomas Ward:
> You've made the decision yourself on your own to improve the
> documentation, and that's fine.

No, the decisions I have made had been over a proposal; and they are 
only meant to go into the documentation after there's polishing and 
consensus over them. The goal had been to have a prototype, where 
approaches could be tested just in time.



Thomas Ward:
> You may be trying to 'improve' it, but you're not accepting the
> criticism that you're asking for from the community, NOR are you
> understanding the points I'm trying to make with regards to visual
> engagement in posts (whether it be wikis, or anything else).

So why I'm writing now in plain text only?

The only two suggestions that I have not implemented from all the amount 
I have received had been:


 - Not using pictographs in wiki-pages, just because I have not decided 
on it yet; as probably would be a better moment to do when Utopic is 
released and pictographs are supported by default in Ubuntu.


 - Not using some kinds of images in wiki-pages, as we have just 
started the conversation!


Even the redaction style in wiki-pages is the way people asked to be.


Thomas Ward:
> To that end, you're not accepting the criticism that multiple users
> currently do not agree with some of the images used - mainly that
> you're adding fluff.

Converting documentation into a playground is a sift, and people can be 
resistant to that. So specifically in this regard I want to make sure 
points of view are based on deliberation rather than rejection by 
default of unknown approaches.


If you want to know, I have no special faith on using images at the 
bottom of pages. What I'm mostly cautious is that small decision being 
taken away by the status quo, as it defines a style of decision talking 
itself.


The status quo of learning is text, the same as the status quo of Unix 
is "man". It doesn't mean these are bad, but they are the default.



Thomas Ward:
> Why are you posting this on the QA list instead of the bugsquad list?

Because I thought the Bug-Squad team had joined the Quality team a long 
time ago, and was listed in Launchpad just for historical reasons. So is 
this a mistake?



Good night.


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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Thomas Ward]

On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella
 wrote:
> Thomas Ward:
>>
>> My opinion on the core vs non-core definitions still stands
>
>
> If someone can improve it, it's welcome.
>
> Perhaps the exact definition doesn't matter that much, since there's a
> standard procedure for determining if a package is core or not. So probably
> giving an approximate idea serves the job.
>
>
> Thomas Ward:
>> That may apply to learning but has no place in a wiki, in my opinion.
>
> I thought a wiki was a place for learning.
>
>
> Thomas Ward wrote:
>> It also only applies when the visuals are ***relevant***, and not
>> with images just put there to add extra fluff.
>
> If the visual is conceptually related with the text, it will make the
> content easier to remember and more attractive to read; even in the case it
> isn't explanatory.

Exactly.  Stickynotes randomly at the end of a page are not relevant
or even conceptually related.

>
>
> Thomas Ward:
>> The great example is textbooks - they follow this theory, but they
>> ONLY follow the theory so much as the images added are relevant -
>> extra fluff is not relevant and unnecessary.
>
> If you take any textbook aimed for learning, for example those from bachelor
> or high school, you will notice that they already use the above technique
> widely.

BUT they do not add fluff images or unnecessary images.  They add
what's necessary.  They don't have a random picture of multicolored
stickynotes on a wall unless its relevant to its topic.  That isn't
relevant here.


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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Thomas Ward:

My opinion on the core vs non-core definitions still stands


If someone can improve it, it's welcome.

Perhaps the exact definition doesn't matter that much, since there's a 
standard procedure for determining if a package is core or not. So 
probably giving an approximate idea serves the job.



Thomas Ward:
> That may apply to learning but has no place in a wiki, in my opinion.

I thought a wiki was a place for learning.


Thomas Ward wrote:
> It also only applies when the visuals are ***relevant***, and not
> with images just put there to add extra fluff.

If the visual is conceptually related with the text, it will make the 
content easier to remember and more attractive to read; even in the case 
it isn't explanatory.



Thomas Ward:
> The great example is textbooks - they follow this theory, but they
> ONLY follow the theory so much as the images added are relevant -
> extra fluff is not relevant and unnecessary.

If you take any textbook aimed for learning, for example those from 
bachelor or high school, you will notice that they already use the above 
technique widely.



Thomas Ward:
> Guys, come on, stop throwing grenades at each other, we had a whole
> email chain on constructive criticism requests eventually turn into
> hot shots at each other.

This is a topic I have been thinking for a while, and concluded I had 
some vices. Probably Elfy has thought that we were about to fall in 
those again, but I have at present abandoned the ideas that let to them.


If I bring this topic is not because small talking, but as this is 
intimately related with what I decided is the most valuable thing I can 
do right now in this project. It will put a small step ahead for making 
users to manage bugs themselves.



Regards.


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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Thomas Ward]

My opinion on the core vs non-core definitions still stands - I have not 
checked if that's been edited but I will in a few minutes.

As for your last message:

> On Oct 11, 2014, at 09:33, Alberto Salvia Novella  
> wrote:
> 
> Elfy:
> > An image at the end of something doesn't add anything to make a page
> > meaningful and enjoyable.
> 
>  (this is a Google search)

That may apply to learning but has no place in a wiki, in my opinion.  It also 
only applies when the visuals are ***relevant***, and not with images just put 
there to add extra fluff.  The great example is textbooks - they follow this 
theory, but they ONLY follow the theory so much as the images added are 
relevant - extra fluff is not relevant and unnecessary.

> 
> Elfy:
> > All it says to me is that Alberto has stopped littering mailing list
> > posts with emojii's and is now littering wiki pages with images.
> 
> Non-logic, evasive and manipulative speaking.

Guys, come on, stop throwing grenades at each other, we had a whole email chain 
on constructive criticism requests eventually turn into hot shots at each 
other.  Let's not have this thread explode into another thread filled with 
taking shots at each other.

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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Elfy:
> An image at the end of something doesn't add anything to make a page
> meaningful and enjoyable.




Elfy:
> All it says to me is that Alberto has stopped littering mailing list
> posts with emojii's and is now littering wiki pages with images.

Non-logic, evasive and manipulative speaking.



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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Elfy]

On 11/10/14 07:46, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote:

Thomas Ward:

As well, why do you need the sticky notes picture at the bottom?  For
those of us who occasionally check the importances on our phones,
you're adding additional unnecessary images for my tiny little phone
to download.


The reason why I put these images at the bottom, without really 
realizing that perhaps it was inappropriate for some devices, was 
plainly for making the experience of navigating through pages 
meaningful and enjoyable.


[snip]


Regards.




An image at the end of something doesn't add anything to make a page 
meaningful and enjoyable.


For an image to be useful it needs to add something otherwise it's just 
fluff


All it says to me is that Alberto has stopped littering mailing list 
posts with emojii's and is now littering wiki pages with images.


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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Thomas Ward:

As well, why do you need the sticky notes picture at the bottom?  For
those of us who occasionally check the importances on our phones,
you're adding additional unnecessary images for my tiny little phone
to download.


The reason why I put these images at the bottom, without really 
realizing that perhaps it was inappropriate for some devices, was 
plainly for making the experience of navigating through pages meaningful 
and enjoyable.


And I have heavily optimized these images for being as fast as possible 
to load without compromising visual quality, in contrast to many 
web-sites that load tons of high resolution images.


For example, the notes image only takes 82.3 KB. For taking 5 MB you 
need to have visit 60 pages for the first time, so it wouldn't be a 
problem. But correct me if I'm mistakes, since I don't use any mobile 
device.



Thomas Ward:
> I think we should ***extremely limit*** the number of
> images we put in bugs documentation.  Bare minimum.

Except in the case that bandwidth usage is too high, I shall disagree 
with that, as people is 20 times more prone to engage if there's some 
kind of visual. Or more specific, it's joyful to have those; which is 
not too little.


If we want to attract people to help us we will want to make it fun for 
most human beings, not only for those who are crazy enough to spend 
their spare time reading documentation and going into complex processes 
as triaging is.


If the goal is to make it serious, I think it's serious in the dull 
sense of the word.



Thomas Ward:
> Also, why do we need a picture of
> what we mean by "importance" on a launchpad bug?  Is it really
> necessary to have that image there?

While the above could be considered, I think this image is a must.

Even when school teaches people that words are as much important (or 
more) than visuals or kinesthetics; neuroscience has discovered that 
human beings processes sounds in their brain in a separate channel than 
images or tact; and this channel is much more inefficient in regard of 
memory, speed or meaning.


Having this image in page makes the explanation direct. Taking it makes 
the user to need to work through it.


We people that work in projects like this usually forget that we are 
habitually in the top 10% of most intelligent population in the world. 
While most humans will find that reading documentation is for them the 
same as reading an encrypted message.


And this is just fine, because this how a human brain works by design. 
The rest is trained.



Brendan Perrine:
> I also really don't understand the point of the sticky note image. I
> find it just makes my screen look like it is cluttered if I see
> anything on it from the desktop.

What you mean?


Regards.


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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Brendan Perrine]

On Fri, 10 Oct 2014 22:15:18 -0400
Thomas Ward  wrote:

> I don't think your definition for Core and Non Core is accurate.  To
> that end, I've asked Brian Murray on IRC to chime in.
> 
> As well, why do you need the sticky notes picture at the bottom?  For
> those of us who occasionally check the importances on our phones,
> you're adding additional unnecessary images for my tiny little phone
> to download.  I think we should ***extremely limit*** the number of
> images we put in bugs documentation.  Bare minimum.  My opinion is get
> rid of the image at the bottom.  Also, why do we need a picture of
> what we mean by "importance" on a launchpad bug?  Is it really
> necessary to have that image there?
> 
> 
> --
> Thomas
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:01 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella
>  wrote:
> > I have made a clean-up draft of
> >  on
> > .
> >
> > Please, check if something is missing or can be improved.
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ubuntu-quality mailing list
> > Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
> > Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
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> >
> 
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I also really don't understand the point of the sticky note image. I find it 
just makes my screen look like it is cluttered if I see anything on it from the 
desktop. I am ambivelent about the launchpad bug importance image. 

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Re: Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Thomas Ward]

I don't think your definition for Core and Non Core is accurate.  To
that end, I've asked Brian Murray on IRC to chime in.

As well, why do you need the sticky notes picture at the bottom?  For
those of us who occasionally check the importances on our phones,
you're adding additional unnecessary images for my tiny little phone
to download.  I think we should ***extremely limit*** the number of
images we put in bugs documentation.  Bare minimum.  My opinion is get
rid of the image at the bottom.  Also, why do we need a picture of
what we mean by "importance" on a launchpad bug?  Is it really
necessary to have that image there?


--
Thomas



On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:01 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella
 wrote:
> I have made a clean-up draft of
>  on
> .
>
> Please, check if something is missing or can be improved.
>
> Regards.
>
>
>
> --
> Ubuntu-quality mailing list
> Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
>

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Please, review this Bugs Importances draft

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

I have made a clean-up draft of 
 on 
.


Please, check if something is missing or can be improved.

Regards.


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