Re: waiting for professional grade

[Hartmut Noack]

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Hash: SHA1

Heiko Kokemoor schrieb:
>> "Let your creativity fly..." in big bold letters. Later it
>> says: "It's easy. Just...". And below that it lists: "Audio, Graphics,
>> Video".
>>
>> Software development, system level tweaking, and learning Linux are
>> mentioned NO WHERE.
>>
>> 
> 
>> "General knowledge of Linux system admin, software development,
>> understanding of xwindows, and other geeky stuff may be required before
>> successful creativity in audio, graphics, or video can be achieved." 
>>
>> Couldn't find it.

"Linux is different, you have a chance here to explore new worlds. Take
your 2h time to learn the basics, start using it and find out more every
day about new and innovative concepts in a system that respects the
intelligence of its users - you`ll like it!"

> 
> To my mind you pointed out the most importand point, not only for Ubuntu
> Studio, but for many products, no matter if open or closed source.
> It's plain marketing, a lie.

Sad but true.


> But if we advertise a product as "easy and so on", then we only copy
> closed source marketing. And perhaps it has to be the question, if this
> is the right way.

Absolutey not the right way but a dead end.
 If the only differece is, that you cannot run Abelton, ProTools and
InDesign on it, then Linux would really be obsolete. It is different and
it should emphasize that in its marketing:

"You have the chance to *learn* new things and use them as a respected
person in a social network, that has its own culture.
Take it or leave it"

> Does opens source the marketing-lies of closed source?

Free systems can and should get marketing but such marketing *must*
avoid lies. 9 out of 10 people are sick and tired of the lies of Apple,
MS, Adobe - you name it. If they come to the GNU-world for relief they
may not even like the complete truth about the system, that runs on
their computer then. But truth is all we have to give and if we give in
to corruption, we are the same as disgusting as the others.

> 
> Even for Windows it's a lie, because this product as well can be very
> fu. tricky.
> 
 Everybody knows or will learn about that before long. So giving the
user the chance to know the difficulties, he/she will have to master in
Linux right from the start will hurt nobody...

best regs

HZN
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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 13:42 -0600, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> The bottom line is that, by its very nature, F/OSS developers
> have _no_ responsibility to the end-user community, whatever that may
> be.  None!  Zarro!  Zilch!!

This does need to be qualified, of course, by saying that no one has a
right to distribute software - F/OSS or otherwise - that's damaging to
another's property or privacy, or clandestinely invasive.  These are in
another realm apart from issues of quality and usability.

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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 09:17 -0500, mac wrote:
> Let me state for the record, I'm not flaming anyone or anything. So, let
> me play devils advocate for a bit:
> 
> To paraphrase a lot of this thread: "F/OSS is for software geeks and
> tinkers, so if you want to do creative work, that does not involve
> learning or creating software, then go buy ***software application for
> whatever creative art you choose*** (i.e. protools, photoshop, Adobe
> studio, etc.)"

This is a generalization of what I said, which was somewhat more
nuanced.  The bottom line is that, by its very nature, F/OSS developers
have _no_ responsibility to the end-user community, whatever that may
be.  None!  Zarro!  Zilch!!  Open Source is developed in the context of
a gift economy.  Developers may _take_ some such responsibility, by
choice, but there's no one really looking over their shoulders requiring
them to do this or do that if they want to continue the work, nor do I
believe there's any such ethical obligation.  Often F/OSS software is
written by geeks, for geeks, which is why some packages seem to be
perpetually in a state of flux, or poorly documented.  Sometimes such
packages _need_ to be taken over by a commercial entity if they're going
to be usable by the rest of us.  CUPS, the Common Unix Printing System,
was a total disaster area from a usability standpoint until Apple took
it over, but now it's a whole lot better.  To Apple's credit, they
realized that it was to their advantage to simply put the project on the
right track and leave it in the F/OSS world without trying to co-opt it.

So some F/OSS software may be _very_ usable and intelligently designed.
I use Bluefish for professional HTML editing, and the principal
developers are quite concerned with usability, and although not always
wise in evaluating usability issues, they listen, and understand such
concerns - and often act on them.  Likewise, I've used a lot of CD / DVD
recording software for Windows, and for Linux, and have come across few
packages for any platform that are as solid and as intelligently
designed  as KDE's k3b utility.

I'm not a diehard /.-er with an attitude that all commercial software is
evil.  The dynamics of commercial software creation are such that people
have a chance to vote for the best with the wallets, and good software
sells for a substantial price.  People who use it professionally find it
a reasonable price to pay if it improves their work and their
productivity.  It's often an honest business relationship which benefits
everyone involved, with nothing evil about it.

> Now I searched for the lawyer speak, in small print where it says:
> "General knowledge of Linux system admin, software development,
> understanding of xwindows, and other geeky stuff may be required before
> successful creativity in audio, graphics, or video can be achieved." 
> 
> Couldn't find it.

That's because everything you need to know about the package legally is
contained in the GPL, and in the usual disclaimer that there is no
guarantee regarding the usability of the software.  Anyone can say
anything about anything.  Truth in advertising is only an obligation if
there's a buyer and purchaser involved, and even then caveat emptor is
an established legal principle.

> Basically, what's said over and over in countless forums is: if you just
> want to use F/OSS because you believe it's a better way (i.e. because of
> the philosophy) and you can't, for whatever reason, help make it
> better(i.e. jump in and write code, fix bugs, write documentation,
> etc.), leave us alone. And certainly don't point out bugs or
> deficiencies.

I certainly don't agree with this!  And my guess is that the attitude
you describe is generally put forth by people who have never done any
substantial F/OSS software in their lives!  The best F/OSS projects
consider thoughtful feedback from _anyone_ using their software as a
resource, and actively solicit bug reports suggestions from
non-developers.  It all depends on the project.  I found a bug in a
Debian package several years ago and filed a bug report with Debian.
Some fellow in Debian QA jumped in and flamed me because I didn't have
all the reporting formalities in order - the right keywords in the right
places in the report, or some such.  I got pissed, and told him so, and
he flamed me back, and before long Joey Hess had to step in and mediate,
which he did quite skillfully.  I then took the problem report directly
to the package developer who was quite friendly and glad to get it - in
any form - and he released an updated package with a fix within 24
hours.

So it's really, in the end, not about F/OSS, or the Open Source
philosophy, but about people.  Attitudes and approaches to development
and user feedback are as varied as the personalities of the people
involved.  Some of the people who yell the loudest about this or about
that may not be the people whose opinions and work are on the line.  The
latter are probably too busy doing

Re: waiting for professional grade

[Ricardo Lameiro]

Well about this discussion, iI think ?I am a little bit guilty.

Well resuming the info and ideas. The impression that I get from this
discussion is that UbuntuStudio is not a easy to use operative system.
Ubuntu studio doesn't go to the majority of the needs of the most of the
people that needs to work with "art".
Because most of the people using linux is geek and doesn't care with the
others needs. Also I read that we should look at the MACintosh to see how it
works, because everyone in the industry use it for years, and it is solid
etc...

Well This is a little bit disturbing indeed, because, normally there are
very few inputs to the DEV team. very few ideas and test cases etc. But i
see a lot of people complaining. And this nobody can deny. Peple come and
just complain, instead of describing the error or the feature etc.

About the Kernel, well, Ubuntu has some differences with the debian Kernel.
for instance, I can use restricted modules on the ubuntu Kernel, really
easy, in others systems is not so easy.

So instead of flaming the linux geeks about the suposed "easy of use" and
the features needed I propose to make a list of ideas and features to bring
to Ubuntustudio.

The objective of this list is for PROFESSIONAL AUDIO/VIDEO/GRAPHICS SYSTEM,
not for a desktup use for day to day.

SO I start with some ideas.

- Embed the Realtime configurations from the root up. No especial config for
doing it. If it is pro, all the pros need RT KERNEL.
- Interface to configure the priorities and memory limits with GUI
- Make a package out of the UBUNTU universe, that will install FST
(VST/wine) with easy, Cant be official, because the vst sdk is not
opensource and there are distribution issues (once more, not linux or DEVs
fault, but instead Closed software developers fault)
-A UbuntuStudio wiki where user can add easily tutorials, test cases, config
tips, hardware tips, etc. Don't need to be a "geek" to help FLOSS. Just need
to WANT to help insted of complain. Be more assertive and less negative. be
constructive.



So I hope people start to colaborate to make this OS the best suited to do
A/V/G work in Linux, But for that we need the help of all the users. even
the non geek ones.

As a note, I am not of the DEV team. But if we help them, they will help us.
Think in this and give your opinion.



2009/12/6 mac 

> On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 18:48 -0600, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> > 
> > I pretty much agree with this in general.  The "appropriate response"
> > that I mean is an answer to the charge, voiced usually by people who
> > don't understand F/OSS, which goes something like "If Linux people want
> > to get more market share etc., etc."  Linux isn't about market
> > share.  Generally, F/OSS progresses by virtue of effort in a gift
> > economy, and developers rightly don't care about market share.  So your
> > point is well taken in that the appropriate answer to "this software
> > should " is "then jump in and make it ".
> >
> > On the other hand, for people who are looking for a tool to do a job,
> > and are not programmers, and are not satisfied with a F/OSS A/V package,
> > getting involved with development may not be a realistic option, and for
> > them "go buy Pro Tools" is not flippant, but very possibly good advice.
> > It's not the responsibility of F/OSS developers to program according to
> > the specs dictated or required by users.  Those who do get caught up in
> > development are often involved in what all too often is a perpetual Work
> > in Progress, which is one of the pitfalls of F/OSS development.  Some
> > projects, which are well managed, are usable and mature, even in
> > unstable or SVN versions (I work on the Bluefish HTML editor, which is
> > one such project thanks to Olivier Sessink's capable leadership).
> > Others have a perpetually unfinished feel, even in stable versions.
> > ALSA was a wasteland of arcane data structures, bad or absent
> > documentation, bugs, incompatibilities and other gremlins for years.  It
> > seems to be a bit better these days, but it took a _long_ time.
>
> Let me state for the record, I'm not flaming anyone or anything. So, let
> me play devils advocate for a bit:
>
> To paraphrase a lot of this thread: "F/OSS is for software geeks and
> tinkers, so if you want to do creative work, that does not involve
> learning or creating software, then go buy ***software application for
> whatever creative art you choose*** (i.e. protools, photoshop, Adobe
> studio, etc.)"
>
> With this in mind, let's pop over to a home page, for just about any
> major app under Ubuntu, for exampl let's choose Ubuntu Studio. The page
> announces: "Let your creativity fly..." in big bold letters. Later it
> says: "It's easy. Just...". And below that it lists: "Audio, Graphics,
> Video".
>
> Software development, system level tweaking, and learning Linux are
> mentioned NO WHERE.
>
> 
>
> Now I searched for the lawyer speak, in small print where it says:
> "General knowledge of 

Re: waiting for professional grade

[Kenneth Koym]

Frankly after 50 years of pushing to have tools that work, I find what you
people say tough to bring together and ...  After all we come together here
to achieve a more perfect OS and deal with a wide number of ?s Could we all
benefit from using a Ubuntu Forum approach & let by gones be bygones?

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Heiko Kokemoor <
getting.li...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> > "Let your creativity fly..." in big bold letters. Later it
> > says: "It's easy. Just...". And below that it lists: "Audio, Graphics,
> > Video".
> >
> > Software development, system level tweaking, and learning Linux are
> > mentioned NO WHERE.
> >
> > 
>
> > "General knowledge of Linux system admin, software development,
> > understanding of xwindows, and other geeky stuff may be required before
> > successful creativity in audio, graphics, or video can be achieved."
> >
> > Couldn't find it.
>
>
> To my mind you pointed out the most importand point, not only for Ubuntu
> Studio, but for many products, no matter if open or closed source.
> It's plain marketing, a lie.
>
> Even if you are a dedicated open source fan, normaly you don't think
> about the way of marketing.
>
> But if we advertise a product as "easy and so on", then we only copy
> closed source marketing. And perhaps it has to be the question, if this
> is the right way.
> Does opens source the marketing-lies of closed source?
>
> Even for Windows it's a lie, because this product as well can be very
> fu. tricky.
>
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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Heiko Kokemoor]

> "Let your creativity fly..." in big bold letters. Later it
> says: "It's easy. Just...". And below that it lists: "Audio, Graphics,
> Video".
>
> Software development, system level tweaking, and learning Linux are
> mentioned NO WHERE.
> 
> 

> "General knowledge of Linux system admin, software development,
> understanding of xwindows, and other geeky stuff may be required before
> successful creativity in audio, graphics, or video can be achieved." 
> 
> Couldn't find it.


To my mind you pointed out the most importand point, not only for Ubuntu
Studio, but for many products, no matter if open or closed source.
It's plain marketing, a lie.

Even if you are a dedicated open source fan, normaly you don't think
about the way of marketing.

But if we advertise a product as "easy and so on", then we only copy
closed source marketing. And perhaps it has to be the question, if this
is the right way.
Does opens source the marketing-lies of closed source?

Even for Windows it's a lie, because this product as well can be very
fu. tricky.

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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Sergio Bello]

On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 09:17 -0500, mac wrote:
> 
> I guess my point is: if this stuff is only for people who have skills
> and/or plenty of spare time to help in other ways, then state that up
> front and scare all the other folks away immediately and don't waste
> their time.
> 


I wasted *a lot* of my time solving *basic* problems to
friends/co-workers/parents on windows. And there's no "General knowledge
of Windows system admin, MSDN searching, understanding of registry, and
other geeky stuff may be required to do XYZ..." disclaimer there, too.

It's just a different approach: people is used to think that windows is
a necessary evil - no choice, no complaint - whereas with Linux some
people think they can deliberately blame Linux developers and the
community at large ('what? aren't you ready for me? what a stupid waste
of time!'). 

Sergio
 


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Re: waiting for professional grade

[mac]

On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 18:48 -0600, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> I pretty much agree with this in general.  The "appropriate response"
> that I mean is an answer to the charge, voiced usually by people who
> don't understand F/OSS, which goes something like "If Linux people want
> to get more market share etc., etc."  Linux isn't about market
> share.  Generally, F/OSS progresses by virtue of effort in a gift
> economy, and developers rightly don't care about market share.  So your
> point is well taken in that the appropriate answer to "this software
> should " is "then jump in and make it ".
> 
> On the other hand, for people who are looking for a tool to do a job,
> and are not programmers, and are not satisfied with a F/OSS A/V package,
> getting involved with development may not be a realistic option, and for
> them "go buy Pro Tools" is not flippant, but very possibly good advice.
> It's not the responsibility of F/OSS developers to program according to
> the specs dictated or required by users.  Those who do get caught up in
> development are often involved in what all too often is a perpetual Work
> in Progress, which is one of the pitfalls of F/OSS development.  Some
> projects, which are well managed, are usable and mature, even in
> unstable or SVN versions (I work on the Bluefish HTML editor, which is
> one such project thanks to Olivier Sessink's capable leadership).
> Others have a perpetually unfinished feel, even in stable versions.
> ALSA was a wasteland of arcane data structures, bad or absent
> documentation, bugs, incompatibilities and other gremlins for years.  It
> seems to be a bit better these days, but it took a _long_ time.

Let me state for the record, I'm not flaming anyone or anything. So, let
me play devils advocate for a bit:

To paraphrase a lot of this thread: "F/OSS is for software geeks and
tinkers, so if you want to do creative work, that does not involve
learning or creating software, then go buy ***software application for
whatever creative art you choose*** (i.e. protools, photoshop, Adobe
studio, etc.)"

With this in mind, let's pop over to a home page, for just about any
major app under Ubuntu, for exampl let's choose Ubuntu Studio. The page
announces: "Let your creativity fly..." in big bold letters. Later it
says: "It's easy. Just...". And below that it lists: "Audio, Graphics,
Video".

Software development, system level tweaking, and learning Linux are
mentioned NO WHERE.



Now I searched for the lawyer speak, in small print where it says:
"General knowledge of Linux system admin, software development,
understanding of xwindows, and other geeky stuff may be required before
successful creativity in audio, graphics, or video can be achieved." 

Couldn't find it.

Maybe this clause should be there...isn't that what's being implied by
this thread?

Basically, what's said over and over in countless forums is: if you just
want to use F/OSS because you believe it's a better way (i.e. because of
the philosophy) and you can't, for whatever reason, help make it
better(i.e. jump in and write code, fix bugs, write documentation,
etc.), leave us alone. And certainly don't point out bugs or
deficiencies.

Side Note: there is a reason software companies have QA departments that
don't write code and all they do is point out bugs and deficiencies. I
kinda see the user base of any F/OSS app as being this department.

I guess my point is: if this stuff is only for people who have skills
and/or plenty of spare time to help in other ways, then state that up
front and scare all the other folks away immediately and don't waste
their time.






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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 18:18 -0600, Brian David wrote:
> That is absolutely not the appropriate response.  The right response
> is, in fact, what a lot of devs on this list do, to their credit.  It
> is to ask those with criticisms to participate in development in some
> way.
> 
> A comunity developed project is not well served by telling people to
> go take a hike.  And no project anywhere, community-developed or
> otherwise, is well-served by deflecting criticism with flippant
> responses.  

I pretty much agree with this in general.  The "appropriate response"
that I mean is an answer to the charge, voiced usually by people who
don't understand F/OSS, which goes something like "If Linux people want
to get more market share etc., etc."  Linux isn't about market
share.  Generally, F/OSS progresses by virtue of effort in a gift
economy, and developers rightly don't care about market share.  So your
point is well taken in that the appropriate answer to "this software
should " is "then jump in and make it ".

On the other hand, for people who are looking for a tool to do a job,
and are not programmers, and are not satisfied with a F/OSS A/V package,
getting involved with development may not be a realistic option, and for
them "go buy Pro Tools" is not flippant, but very possibly good advice.
It's not the responsibility of F/OSS developers to program according to
the specs dictated or required by users.  Those who do get caught up in
development are often involved in what all too often is a perpetual Work
in Progress, which is one of the pitfalls of F/OSS development.  Some
projects, which are well managed, are usable and mature, even in
unstable or SVN versions (I work on the Bluefish HTML editor, which is
one such project thanks to Olivier Sessink's capable leadership).
Others have a perpetually unfinished feel, even in stable versions.
ALSA was a wasteland of arcane data structures, bad or absent
documentation, bugs, incompatibilities and other gremlins for years.  It
seems to be a bit better these days, but it took a _long_ time.

-- 
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FMP Computer Services |who needs Windows  |  available at
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http://www.fmp.com|   |



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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Brian David]

On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 6:18 PM, Brian David  wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Lindsay Haisley  wrote:
>
> Lindsay, I agree with a whole lot of what you say, but this line is an
> example one of my greatest pet peeves in discussions like this:
>
>
> "The appropriate response to any criticism would be "if you don't like
> it, go buy Pro Tools."
>
> That is absolutely not the appropriate response.  The right response is, in
> fact, what a lot of devs on this list do, to their credit.  It is to ask
> those with criticisms to participate in development in some way.
>
> A comunity developed project is not well served by telling people to go
> take a hike.  And no project anywhere, community-developed or otherwise, is
> well-served by deflecting criticism with flippant responses.
>
>
>
> -Brian David
>

I should add, since we all know that tone doesn't come across in e-mails,
that I'm not suggesting that Lindsay is using flippant responses to deflect
criticism.  I refer only to those who earnestly use a statements like "if
you don't like it, go buy Pro Tools."

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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Brian David]

On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Lindsay Haisley  wrote:

> Excellent points, Karlheinz, and a right-on perspective.
>
> I'm going to chime in in support.  I am an experienced performer and
> musician, have recorded (commercially) a number of my own albums and
> CDs, and at one time owned and operated my own analog recording studio.
> My other hat is as the owner and operator of an online (LAMP-based) web
> and email hosting service, FMP Computer Services, and as a Linux system
> administration consultant.  I get paid for this, too :-)
>
> On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 10:28 -0500, Karlheinz Noise wrote:
> > > First, there
> > > is the contradictory thought process that wonders why more people don't
> > > contribute to projects like this, while at the same time frowning on
> people
> > > who complain about a tough user experience and telling them to just
> learn
> > > the 'right' way or whatnot.
> >
> > This is important. I blame the fact that the Linux community has too
> > large of a programmer-to-user ratio. That's completely understandable
> > for any sort of DIY community, but if any variety of GNU/Linux wants
> > to break out of its niche market, it needs to explicitly change its
> > goals to attract a user base that is less computer literate.
>
> *SNIP*

> You make a lot of good points, Karlheinz.
>
> --
> Lindsay Haisley   |"Fighting against human | PGP public key
> FMP Computer Services |   creativity is like   |  available at
> 512-259-1190  |   trying to eradicate  |
> http://www.fmp.com|   dandelions"  |
>  | (Pamela Jones) |
>
>
Lindsay, I agree with a whole lot of what you say, but this line is an
example one of my greatest pet peeves in discussions like this:

"The appropriate response to any criticism would be "if you don't like
it, go buy Pro Tools."

That is absolutely not the appropriate response.  The right response is, in
fact, what a lot of devs on this list do, to their credit.  It is to ask
those with criticisms to participate in development in some way.

A comunity developed project is not well served by telling people to go take
a hike.  And no project anywhere, community-developed or otherwise, is
well-served by deflecting criticism with flippant responses.


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RE: waiting for professional grade

[Lindsay Haisley]

Excellent points, Karlheinz, and a right-on perspective.

I'm going to chime in in support.  I am an experienced performer and
musician, have recorded (commercially) a number of my own albums and
CDs, and at one time owned and operated my own analog recording studio.
My other hat is as the owner and operator of an online (LAMP-based) web
and email hosting service, FMP Computer Services, and as a Linux system
administration consultant.  I get paid for this, too :-)

On Sat, 2009-12-05 at 10:28 -0500, Karlheinz Noise wrote:
> > First, there
> > is the contradictory thought process that wonders why more people don't
> > contribute to projects like this, while at the same time frowning on people
> > who complain about a tough user experience and telling them to just learn
> > the 'right' way or whatnot.
>
> This is important. I blame the fact that the Linux community has too
> large of a programmer-to-user ratio. That's completely understandable
> for any sort of DIY community, but if any variety of GNU/Linux wants
> to break out of its niche market, it needs to explicitly change its
> goals to attract a user base that is less computer literate.

Classically, the F/OSS community doesn't care if it "breaks out" of, or
breaks into any market.  Market share isn't a goal, just a byproduct of
creating software software that meets a very high standard of
excellence, and excellence is the objective.

The appropriate response to any criticism would be "if you don't like
it, go buy Pro Tools."  On the other hand, defining excellence with
regard to A/V software has to mean that any reasonably intelligent and
resourceful studio engineer or producer can use the software in a way
that allows him or her to focus on the rather complex issues of
production, recording, mixing, punching, etc. and not on configuring the
software.  One of the objectives of good A/V software design should be
transparency.

> There are reasons for that relative computer illiteracy, and they are
> not bad ones. For instance: If you tell a recording engineer to just
> learn the task the "right" way, are you going to pay them $100/hour to
> do it? That's how much they'd lose in studio time.

Good point!  Developing competitive skills as a recording engineer is a
major educational undertaking.  Everyone who goes through this kind of
educational experience, doctors, engineers, whatever, becomes more
conservative about their tools.  

> Here's one suggestion: Stop thinking about Linux vs. Windows, and
> start thinking about Linux vs. Mac. For at least ten years, NOBODY in
> the A/V industry used Windows. Even today, almost all my musician
> friends use a Mac if they have a choice.

The Mac has been the de facto standard platform for the A/V industry for
years, going back even longer than the 10 that Karlheinz cites.
Windows-based tools have made some inroads, but the Mac and Mac OSes are
still the standard platform.  Pro Tools on the Mac, and the various
software and hardware components that work with it are the gold standard
for digital recording.  Pro Tools has pretty much defined the look and
feel of the UI that recording and production people expect.

I've used Ardour2 and like it rather well, but it's godawful difficult
to figure out how to do various jobs on it, and the documentation is
pretty sketchy.  There are features in it that I have no idea how to
use, or understand, and no time to explore when I'm using it to do a
musical job.  One indicator of an immature technology or tool is that
the development of it gets way ahead of the documentation.  This isn't
necessarily bad, just an indication that it's still very much a Work In
Progress.

> Another suggestion: Stop thinking of A/V programs as computer
> programs. Get up from your computer, and go browse the shelves of
> Guitar Center. Remember back in the 80's, when digital synths were
> coming around? Remember having to scroll through all those menus on
> your DX7 or K2000? That interface style is mostly gone now, and
> there's a very good reason for that.

Better still, go visit one of your professional recording engineer
friends and watch as he or she uses modern commercial digital recording
tools.

> I don't know the official numbers, but ALMOST ALL of my Linux-using
> friends use Ubuntu, and the main reason is user-friendliness.

For me, it's not just user-friendliness.  I can handle the system admin
stuff, but I like software that's solid around the edges and doesn't
flake out, break or do weird and unexpected things.  Ubuntu partakes of
Debian's quality, which is considerable.  I don't care for the attitudes
of a lot of Debian QA and developer people - they tend to have their
noses stuck straight up into the air - but Ubuntu people seem to be much
more friendly and socially apt in this regard.

> That way, you could focus less on keeping up with the Joneses, and
> focus on releasing only after the system is rock-hard stable.

Rock-hard stable and reliable is _very_ good for a software too

RE: waiting for professional grade

[Karlheinz Noise]

Hey, I know I'm not exactly a power user on this list, but I thought I'd chime 
in. Obviously this is all just my opinion.
Mostly I agree with everything Brian David said, but I'd like to elaborate.
> First, there> is the contradictory thought process that wonders why more 
> people don't> contribute to projects like this, while at the same time 
> frowning on people> who complain about a tough user experience and telling 
> them to just learn> the 'right' way or whatnot.
This is important. I blame the fact that the Linux community has too large of a 
programmer-to-user ratio. That's completely understandable for any sort of DIY 
community, but if any variety of GNU/Linux wants to break out of its niche 
market, it needs to explicitly change its goals to attract a user base that is 
less computer literate.
There are reasons for that relative computer illiteracy, and they are not bad 
ones. For instance: If you tell a recording engineer to just learn the task the 
"right" way, are you going to pay them $100/hour to do it? That's how much 
they'd lose in studio time.
> developers really need to consider the type of> experience that the average 
> user is going to expect, and in the case of this> project, the average 
> audio/visual designer.
Bingo. Because it's geared towards A/V users, Ubuntu Studio needs to be even 
more user-friendly than vanilla Ubuntu. "So simple, even Ted Nugent can use it."
Here's one suggestion: Stop thinking about Linux vs. Windows, and start 
thinking about Linux vs. Mac. For at least ten years, NOBODY in the A/V 
industry used Windows. Even today, almost all my musician friends use a Mac if 
they have a choice.
Another suggestion: Stop thinking of A/V programs as computer programs. Get up 
from your computer, and go browse the shelves of Guitar Center. Remember back 
in the 80's, when digital synths were coming around? Remember having to scroll 
through all those menus on your DX7 or K2000? That interface style is mostly 
gone now, and there's a very good reason for that.
> However, this isn't just any project, this is a derivative of Ubuntu, a> 
> distribution that has the reputation of being THE user-friendly LInux> distro.
And one which has entirely the right idea. Think of how many Linux users y'all 
know personally. How many of them use Ubuntu (or a derivative) vs. any other 
distro? I don't know the official numbers, but ALMOST ALL of my Linux-using 
friends use Ubuntu, and the main reason is user-friendliness.
That's why I'm so distressed when I hear all these reports about RT kernal 
bugs, having to edit config files, setting up user groups, etc. The whole idea 
behind Ubuntu was that the average user would never have to worry about any of 
these things. It's also the reason I haven't upgraded from 8.10.
I know this would take a huge amount of work, but have y'all considered 
branching from Ubuntu altogether? A lot of these bugs seem to happen because 
UbuStu needs to keep up with Ubuntu's (rather rapid) release schedule. That 
way, you could focus less on keeping up with the Joneses, and focus on 
releasing only after the system is rock-hard stable.
Thinking about an even bigger picture, has anyone suggested forming a standards 
body for audio programming? That way, everything could be designed to work 
together a lot better. I'm thinking a sort of W3C for audio.
Like I said, this is just talk on my part. Feel free to reject any or all of 
what I just said.
-Karlheinz___
http://www.khznoise.com
  
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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Gerhard Lang]

Brian David schrieb:
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Leo  > wrote:
>
> >> The CLI is by no means outdated, but of all the classes of
> tasks one can
> >> do on any computer, the CLI is probably _least_ suited to audio and
> >> multimedia work.
>
> But with out CLI I would not be able to run wine programs.
> An icon for wine never give good results (maybe it's me)
> but if I do "cd .wine/drive_c/???/???" then "wine program" It runs
> good and if it doesn't I can see the error to fix.
>
> Leo
>
>
> I understand the frustration that a lot of experienced users have with
> those who do not want to learn to use the ins and outs of a system in
> order to best utilize that system.  However, there are a few points
> that I think many in the 'just learn Linux and CLI' crowd often don't
> consider.  First, there is the contradictory thought process that
> wonders why more people don't contribute to projects like this, while
> at the same time frowning on people who complain about a tough user
> experience and telling them to just learn the 'right' way or whatnot. 
> Sorry, but you are never going to get people to join the project if
> you treat them like that.
>
> Second, and more importantly, developers really need to consider the
> type of experience that the average user is going to expect, and in
> the case of this project, the average audio/visual designer.  You can
> rant all you want about how the CLI is better, but the truth is that
> the great majority of people are simply never going to learn to use
> it.  Doesn't matter whether it is right or wrong, it just is.  It is
> perfectly acceptible for designers to respond by saying 'tough, learn
> it the way it is', but if so, those same people should not be
> surprised if their software always remains a niche project used by a
> small group of people, and developed by an even smaller group.
>
> However, this isn't just any project, this is a derivative of Ubuntu,
> a distribution that has the reputation of being THE user-friendly
> LInux distro.  A goal of any project carrying that name should be to
> aim for the most user-friendly experience.
> -- 
> -Brian David
I think I am such an average user, skeptical against close source, low
budgeted and trying to stay inside laws even if not concerned. I came
from windows not so long ago without any linux or coding knowledge. For
my opinion  i. e. tweaking rt latency is much more userfriendly in
ubuntustudio then trying similar in xp. Guess  someone really motivated
for getting a high quality multimedia environment will not avoid some
reading, asking and experimentation. There is much help around and if
one is really curious and interested (s)he will get the necessary skills
in a short time. And if (s)he makes a lot of money so (s)he doesn't have
enough time for reading and testing themselves there will be excellent
commercial support too. Did someone here try to tweak uptodate
commercial MS audio software on a 3 years old standard windows machine
for passable performance? I'm sure (s)he will stop complaining about
ubuntustudio.

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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Brian David]

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Leo  wrote:

> >> The CLI is by no means outdated, but of all the classes of tasks one can
> >> do on any computer, the CLI is probably _least_ suited to audio and
> >> multimedia work.
>
> But with out CLI I would not be able to run wine programs.
> An icon for wine never give good results (maybe it's me)
> but if I do "cd .wine/drive_c/???/???" then "wine program" It runs
> good and if it doesn't I can see the error to fix.
>
> Leo
>
>
I understand the frustration that a lot of experienced users have with those
who do not want to learn to use the ins and outs of a system in order to
best utilize that system.  However, there are a few points that I think many
in the 'just learn Linux and CLI' crowd often don't consider.  First, there
is the contradictory thought process that wonders why more people don't
contribute to projects like this, while at the same time frowning on people
who complain about a tough user experience and telling them to just learn
the 'right' way or whatnot.  Sorry, but you are never going to get people to
join the project if you treat them like that.

Second, and more importantly, developers really need to consider the type of
experience that the average user is going to expect, and in the case of this
project, the average audio/visual designer.  You can rant all you want about
how the CLI is better, but the truth is that the great majority of people
are simply never going to learn to use it.  Doesn't matter whether it is
right or wrong, it just is.  It is perfectly acceptible for designers to
respond by saying 'tough, learn it the way it is', but if so, those same
people should not be surprised if their software always remains a niche
project used by a small group of people, and developed by an even smaller
group.

However, this isn't just any project, this is a derivative of Ubuntu, a
distribution that has the reputation of being THE user-friendly LInux
distro.  A goal of any project carrying that name should be to aim for the
most user-friendly experience.
-- 
-Brian David
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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Leo]

>> The CLI is by no means outdated, but of all the classes of tasks one can
>> do on any computer, the CLI is probably _least_ suited to audio and
>> multimedia work.

But with out CLI I would not be able to run wine programs.
An icon for wine never give good results (maybe it's me)
but if I do "cd .wine/drive_c/???/???" then "wine program" It runs
good and if it doesn't I can see the error to fix.

Leo

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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Ricardo Lameiro]

2009/12/4 Lindsay Haisley 

> On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 17:00 +, Ricardo Lameiro wrote:
> > IMHO the BIG problem comes when the users think that a GUI is always
> > better than CLI. Some users think that CLI is very outdated etc...
>
> The CLI is by no means outdated, but of all the classes of tasks one can
> do on any computer, the CLI is probably _least_ suited to audio and
> multimedia work.  The industry standards for professional recording and
> editing UIs are graphical.  Linux isn't the industry leader, regardless
> of the quality of the Linux CLI and GUI software available.
>
> The CLI really comes into its own for system administration work, which
> is another thing altogether.
>


Yes is true, but i wasnt talkning about audio work, but system config. I
never said CLI is good for audio work...

>
> >  well about that i just tell this:
> > Count the time you take running the menus to start, for example
> > firefox, and the time takes you to type in the CLI firefox than
> > you have an idea
>
> A proper GUI, including Gnome or KDE, lets me put an icon for Firefox on
> my desktop or toolbar (a one-time operation) which I can click once to
> bring up firefox - faster than typing it in.
>
>
>
YEs you can put it. I have that, I even use the Cairo dock , but firefox was
only an example... I tought it was clear

> >
> --
> Lindsay Haisley   |"Fighting against human | PGP public key
> FMP Computer Services |   creativity is like   |  available at
> 512-259-1190  |   trying to eradicate  |
> http://www.fmp.com|   dandelions"  |
>  | (Pamela Jones) |
>
>
>
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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 17:00 +, Ricardo Lameiro wrote:
> IMHO the BIG problem comes when the users think that a GUI is always
> better than CLI. Some users think that CLI is very outdated etc...

The CLI is by no means outdated, but of all the classes of tasks one can
do on any computer, the CLI is probably _least_ suited to audio and
multimedia work.  The industry standards for professional recording and
editing UIs are graphical.  Linux isn't the industry leader, regardless
of the quality of the Linux CLI and GUI software available.

The CLI really comes into its own for system administration work, which
is another thing altogether.

>  well about that i just tell this:
> Count the time you take running the menus to start, for example
> firefox, and the time takes you to type in the CLI firefox than
> you have an idea

A proper GUI, including Gnome or KDE, lets me put an icon for Firefox on
my desktop or toolbar (a one-time operation) which I can click once to
bring up firefox - faster than typing it in.


>  
-- 
Lindsay Haisley   |"Fighting against human | PGP public key
FMP Computer Services |   creativity is like   |  available at
512-259-1190  |   trying to eradicate  |
http://www.fmp.com|   dandelions"  |
  | (Pamela Jones) |



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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Ricardo Lameiro]

I can understand the frustration on the "all" experience, but we should
remember, that to running an RT kernel you don't need to to compile
yourself, the kernel shiped on the 9.10 is way better than usual (apart the
8.04 the real deal :D ). Most of the problems people first get are the
priorities configurations. An that can be a little confusing at the
beginning, but will also give the user a knowledge that will be usefull on
the pro audio work.
The aspect, most of the people complain, is the command line interface
(CLI). This is a false question, because the productivity is incriesed when
using the CLI. Its a powerfull tool for configuration, debbuging, install
etc. faster than the graphic paradigm. Remeber productivity is about the
time spend to do a task. and believ-me for most of this task the CLI is
FASTER. the learning curve is not so hard as people think.

IMHO the BIG problem comes when the users think that a GUI is always better
than CLI. Some users think that CLI is very outdated etc... well about that
i just tell this:
Count the time you take running the menus to start, for example firefox, and
the time takes you to type in the CLI firefox than you have an idea



2009/12/4 Mac McIlvaine 

> At Friday, 4 December 2009, you wrote:
>
> >There is only one thing I do not understand.why are people wanting
> PROFESSIONALY graded software, If they dont want to learn and how
> to use itIF it is PRO, IT IS OBVIOUS that it will have a lot
> of function. I think people ask to much... OR it is simple or it
> is pro.
> 
> >2009/12/4 Brian King 
> >
>
> I think a lot of frustration comes from the whole experience rather
> than a particular software application.
>
> By that I mean, learning to use the functionality of, say, Ardour,
> is different from needing to learn how to build the kernel in order
> to get to point where one can begin to learn Ardour. (Imagine if
> everyone had to learn how to culture yeast before they could enjoy
> a good beer...)
>
> In truth, free software does, indeed, have a price...you need to
> learn a bit of computer geekness. ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: waiting for professional grade

[Mac McIlvaine]

At Friday, 4 December 2009, you wrote:

>There is only one thing I do not understand.why are people wanting 
PROFESSIONALY graded software, If they dont want to learn and how 
to use itIF it is PRO, IT IS OBVIOUS that it will have a lot 
of function. I think people ask to much... OR it is simple or it 
is pro.

>2009/12/4 Brian King 
>

I think a lot of frustration comes from the whole experience rather 
than a particular software application.

By that I mean, learning to use the functionality of, say, Ardour,
is different from needing to learn how to build the kernel in order 
to get to point where one can begin to learn Ardour. (Imagine if 
everyone had to learn how to culture yeast before they could enjoy 
a good beer...)

In truth, free software does, indeed, have a price...you need to 
learn a bit of computer geekness. ;-)





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