Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] Converting a recorded track to a timing track

[David Sumbler]

On Tue, 2016-12-27 at 17:15 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 15:29:08 +, David Sumbler wrote:
> > 
> > I don't really see how an "artificial" pulse can sound more natural
> > than a human one
> In the context of using a sequencer with beats and bars, it sounds
> more
> natural, since it's nearly impossible to fit pulse played music into
> the resolution.
> 
> Another solution would be to record even MIDI tracks by ignoring a
> sequencers measure and tempo, quasi use MIDI in the same way as a
> tape
> recorder.

Yes, that's what I do, and what I intend to do (once I can get the
keyboard linked to my computer again!)

> > What I wanted to acheive was simply to get the midi beats to
> > correspond
> > (roughly) to the actual beats of the music itself - rits,
> > accelerandos
> > and all.  The purpose of this is just to make it easier navigating
> > in,
> > say, qtractor: if I want to make a change at beat 3 of bar 246 then
> > it
> > will be easy to find.
> Use markers. I don't remember in what way markers are supported by
> Qtractor, but usually you could set markers. Name markers "bridge",
> "refrain", "foo" or even "bar_1", "bar_2" and "bar_n".
> 
> > 
> > As I said, I can probably do this with a Python program, but I
> > didn't
> > want to spend time writing that if there is something available
> > already.  The program would need a track consisting only of beats.
> >  This click-track could be recorded before or after the first track
> > of
> > actual music has been recorded - the pros and cons of that choice
> > have
> > nothing to do with what I wanted to do with it.  I wasn't
> > suggesting
> > that I would necessarily want to play by trying to follow an
> > artificial
> > click track: the click track could be recorded before or after the
> > recording of one or more music tracks.
> > 
> > Anyway, thanks for your interest and comments.
> I guess we understand you correctly, but you misunderstand us.
> 
> Regards,
> Ralf
> 
> 

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] Converting a recorded track to a timing track

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2016 15:29:08 +, David Sumbler wrote:
>I don't really see how an "artificial" pulse can sound more natural
>than a human one

In the context of using a sequencer with beats and bars, it sounds more
natural, since it's nearly impossible to fit pulse played music into
the resolution.

Another solution would be to record even MIDI tracks by ignoring a
sequencers measure and tempo, quasi use MIDI in the same way as a tape
recorder.

>What I wanted to acheive was simply to get the midi beats to correspond
>(roughly) to the actual beats of the music itself - rits, accelerandos
>and all.  The purpose of this is just to make it easier navigating in,
>say, qtractor: if I want to make a change at beat 3 of bar 246 then it
>will be easy to find.

Use markers. I don't remember in what way markers are supported by
Qtractor, but usually you could set markers. Name markers "bridge",
"refrain", "foo" or even "bar_1", "bar_2" and "bar_n".

>As I said, I can probably do this with a Python program, but I didn't
>want to spend time writing that if there is something available
>already.  The program would need a track consisting only of beats.
> This click-track could be recorded before or after the first track of
>actual music has been recorded - the pros and cons of that choice have
>nothing to do with what I wanted to do with it.  I wasn't suggesting
>that I would necessarily want to play by trying to follow an artificial
>click track: the click track could be recorded before or after the
>recording of one or more music tracks.
>
>Anyway, thanks for your interest and comments.

I guess we understand you correctly, but you misunderstand us.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] Converting a recorded track to a timing track

[David Sumbler]

On Mon, 2016-12-26 at 12:32 +, Pietro Bergamo wrote:
> Hi.
> In my (not so big) experience, "fluid" tempos and pulses are really
> hard to sync, as Ralf said. 
> I recorded recently a song with many tempo/measure changes and I
> couldn't find any way to make organically. In the end, I kind of
> cheated. On a rallentando, for instance, I split the measures in
> several pieces so that the metronome would count the eight notes or
> the sixteenth notes, thus making it easier to follow the pulse when
> recording. For each situation, I tried to find a (often different)
> solution. But I prepared the whole tempo track all in numbers, not
> through any kind of tapping or beat detection.
> For me, tapping the tempo (or recording an audio with it) doesn't
> work very well because I find it hard to replicate the intention I
> had when I'm playing a different instrument. I find it even harder
> when other people are going to play. An "artificial" tempo is, for
> me, always easier to predict, making the recording more precise and
> demanding less editing. In the end, I think it sounds more natural
> this way.
> But, as I said, I'm not that experienced, so maybe there are better
> solutions out there.
> I hope this was of some help.
> Best regards,
> Pietro

I don't really see how an "artificial" pulse can sound more natural
than a human one, but that isn't really an option for what I am trying
to do in any case.  The pieces I want to record are my own compositions
(dating back half a century in some cases!) and I know exactly how I
want them to be played, much as a conductor will know exactly the
variations and subtleties of tempo (s)he wants.  I don't think I shall
have any difficulty keeping with the recorded pulse - after all, once
one instrument is recorded then playing the second instrument and
staying with the first is only what musicians without a conductor do
all the time.  And, as I said, in my head I know already how this music
"should" go.

What I wanted to acheive was simply to get the midi beats to correspond
(roughly) to the actual beats of the music itself - rits, accelerandos
and all.  The purpose of this is just to make it easier navigating in,
say, qtractor: if I want to make a change at beat 3 of bar 246 then it
will be easy to find.

As I said, I can probably do this with a Python program, but I didn't
want to spend time writing that if there is something available
already.  The program would need a track consisting only of beats.
 This click-track could be recorded before or after the first track of
actual music has been recorded - the pros and cons of that choice have
nothing to do with what I wanted to do with it.  I wasn't suggesting
that I would necessarily want to play by trying to follow an artificial
click track: the click track could be recorded before or after the
recording of one or more music tracks.

Anyway, thanks for your interest and comments.

David

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] Converting a recorded track to a timing track

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Mon, 26 Dec 2016 12:32:01 + (UTC), Pietro Bergamo wrote:
>An "artificial" tempo is, for me, always easier to predict, making the
>recording more precise and demanding less editing. In the end, I think
>it sounds more natural this way.

Full acknowledgement. The OP could either record sequencer music with a
simple tempo map or record just audio tracks, disable measure lines if
possible, for Qtractor simply ignore them, since disabling them seems
to be impossible and only care about the timecode, resp. the OP could
record MIDI tracks without using quantization and by using as much
ticks as possible, Qtractor > File > Properties > Ticks/Beat and then
use a MIDI track quasi in the same way as an audio track.

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] Converting a recorded track to a timing track

[Pietro Bergamo]

Hi.In my (not so big) experience, "fluid" tempos and pulses are really hard to 
sync, as Ralf said. 
I recorded recently a song with many tempo/measure changes and I couldn't find 
any way to make organically. In the end, I kind of cheated. On a rallentando, 
for instance, I split the measures in several pieces so that the metronome 
would count the eight notes or the sixteenth notes, thus making it easier to 
follow the pulse when recording. For each situation, I tried to find a (often 
different) solution. But I prepared the whole tempo track all in numbers, not 
through any kind of tapping or beat detection.
For me, tapping the tempo (or recording an audio with it) doesn't work very 
well because I find it hard to replicate the intention I had when I'm playing a 
different instrument. I find it even harder when other people are going to 
play. An "artificial" tempo is, for me, always easier to predict, making the 
recording more precise and demanding less editing. In the end, I think it 
sounds more natural this way.But, as I said, I'm not that experienced, so maybe 
there are better solutions out there.I hope this was of some help.Best 
regards,Pietro
 

Em Segunda-feira, 26 de Dezembro de 2016 10:09, Ralf Mardorf 
 escreveu:
 

 Hi,

you need a sequencer that records a tempo map following you tapping a
key. This automatically would set the tempo, BPM in relation to the time
code position. This works very well to sync a sequencer to "averaged
normal music" played by real musicians. After or before doing this you
still need to manually edit the signature. No software is able to
detect if you are playing 3/4 followed by 2/4 or if you are playing
5/4. Apart from this, if you are really playing by pulse, recording a
tempo map might be more or less impossible, since when you actually
wouldn't count, you need to count, resp. tap, so that the sequencer
knows at what tempo you are, where quasi no tempo exists. In short, a
feature to sync a MIDI sequencer to human played audio tracks by
tapping a key does exist since decades, even to analog audio tapes
where the sequencer is synced by SMPTE. I guess you won't find this
feature provided by Qtractor. There only seems to be    View > Tempo
Map > Tap    to set a tempo at a given position, not to generate a
tempo map while playing the song. Maybe Ardour, Rosegarden or another
Linux sequencer provides it. I suspect that assuming Ardour's Rhythm
Ferret should still exist and assuming it should work, it just would
work for "averaged normal music",
https://community.ardour.org/a3_features_ferret . However, beat
detection is for sure less good than tapping, if you are playing by
pulse. Sync is an issue for all computer platforms, but Linux for sure
is by far the weakest platform in this domain.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [ubuntu-studio-users] Converting a recorded track to a timing track

[Ralf Mardorf]

Hi,

you need a sequencer that records a tempo map following you tapping a
key. This automatically would set the tempo, BPM in relation to the time
code position. This works very well to sync a sequencer to "averaged
normal music" played by real musicians. After or before doing this you
still need to manually edit the signature. No software is able to
detect if you are playing 3/4 followed by 2/4 or if you are playing
5/4. Apart from this, if you are really playing by pulse, recording a
tempo map might be more or less impossible, since when you actually
wouldn't count, you need to count, resp. tap, so that the sequencer
knows at what tempo you are, where quasi no tempo exists. In short, a
feature to sync a MIDI sequencer to human played audio tracks by
tapping a key does exist since decades, even to analog audio tapes
where the sequencer is synced by SMPTE. I guess you won't find this
feature provided by Qtractor. There only seems to be View > Tempo
Map > Tapto set a tempo at a given position, not to generate a
tempo map while playing the song. Maybe Ardour, Rosegarden or another
Linux sequencer provides it. I suspect that assuming Ardour's Rhythm
Ferret should still exist and assuming it should work, it just would
work for "averaged normal music",
https://community.ardour.org/a3_features_ferret . However, beat
detection is for sure less good than tapping, if you are playing by
pulse. Sync is an issue for all computer platforms, but Linux for sure
is by far the weakest platform in this domain.

Regards,
Ralf

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