Re: ?????: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Kenneth Nielsen]

> Oryginal Message-:
>> On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 09:46:57AM +0400, Oleg Koptev wrote:
>>> In reference to upstream teams - dunno, but I think somebody from here
>>> are in tight contact with them (as I see at Og e-mail adress for
>>> example). So it could be figured out there in any case.
>>
>> You don't need "tight contact with" upstream to report bugs (non-obvious
>> strings lacking context is a bug), just open and account in, say, gnome
>> bugzilla and file bug report(s) against the relevant module(s), this way
>> you know for sure that the developers know about the issue and can work
>> on it.
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> You said that non-obvious string lacking context is a bug. I cannot
> agree with this, becuase this context usually you can find in real
> appliacation. If you would open translated programm and try to find
> doubtful string/option, you would not need a comment for such string.
>
> In my opinion, before start to translate application, each translator
> should first learn it and if he still don't know a meaning of translated
> string, then he should contact with developers or submit the bug report.

I completely disagree. It is a simple matter of efficiency, how much
work we can get done with the same amount of work from contributors
(developers and translators). It takes one developer about the same
amount of time to write context to one unclear string that he himself
authored, as it would take one translator to research that string. The
problem then is, that without the comments all translators would have
to use time on it. Since e.g. gnome is translated into 50-80
languages, you can save the time of the other 49-79 translators (i.e.
contributors) by making the comments. Time which they can then use to
do other contributions.

Regards Kenneth Nielsen

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Re: ?????: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Khaled Hosny]

On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 08:28:50AM +0200, Artur Szymanski wrote:
> Oryginal Message-:
> > On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 09:46:57AM +0400, Oleg Koptev wrote:
> >> In reference to upstream teams - dunno, but I think somebody from here
> >> are in tight contact with them (as I see at Og e-mail adress for
> >> example). So it could be figured out there in any case.
> > 
> > You don't need "tight contact with" upstream to report bugs (non-obvious
> > strings lacking context is a bug), just open and account in, say, gnome
> > bugzilla and file bug report(s) against the relevant module(s), this way
> > you know for sure that the developers know about the issue and can work
> > on it.
> > 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> You said that non-obvious string lacking context is a bug. I cannot
> agree with this, becuase this context usually you can find in real
> appliacation. If you would open translated programm and try to find
> doubtful string/option, you would not need a comment for such string.

If a string can be understood easily from the UI, then it is obvious,
otherwise gettext's msgctx has been there for the very reason of making
un-clear strings clear. Being mainly a gnome translator, I know for
certain that adding translator's comments and message contexts is a well
established practice, that when an applications fails to do so, it is
considered a bug and should be reported. I don't know much about other
projects, but I'll be surprised if that wouldn't the case too.

> 
> In my opinion, before start to translate application, each translator
> should first learn it and if he still don't know a meaning of translated
> string, then he should contact with developers or submit the bug report.

I completely agree, and that what my comment was about.
 
Regards,
 Khaled


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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Gabor Kelemen]

Og Maciel írta:
> 2009/4/6 Evan Murphy :
>   
>> String 6, template "jockey", package "jockey"
>> String 7, template "jockey", package "jockey"
>> 
>
> Hi Evan, the Jockey package source code is maintained outside of
> Ubuntu and can be looked at http://home.gna.org/jockey/. I recommend
> you send an email to the maintainer, and kindly explain the situation
> so that he can remedy it.
>
>   
No, this is another Jockey :).
This one in Ubuntu is the Device driver installer, and one of the few
packages where Ubuntu is the upstream:
https://launchpad.net/jockey

Regards
Gabor Kelemen

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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Og Maciel]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 11:02 PM, Arne Goetje  wrote:
> Well, I guess I shouldn't hit the reply button when still half asleep... ;)

No harm done here Arne. Take care.
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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Arne Goetje]

Og Maciel wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Arne Goetje  wrote:
>> Those comments are placed into the upstream source code by upstream
>> developers. Those would be the ones to yell at. (Except of course if the
>> string results of a ubuntu patch, then it would be that guy whoever
>> made/applied the patch).
> 
> I'm pretty sure you didn't mean this literally, but imho we should
> strive to pave the way for more harmony between translators and
> developers, Ubuntu and upstream projects. Don't take it this the wrong
> way but your comment didn't really help the issue.

*sigh* do I really have to put sarcasm tags everywhere?
I'm sure the original poster knows pretty well, that "yelling" is not
the appropriate form of reporting such issues. I just used his words. :)

>> We template uploaders have nothing to do with that. :)
> 
> Quite the opposite, you can teach/empower translators to become more
> familiarized with how FOSS projects work and how they can become
> better citizens. :)

My point was that we *template uploaders* have nothing to do with the
*upstream developers* who put those comments into the code.

The original poster did the right thing, he just barked up the wrong
tree. ;) Therefor the "pointer" to upstream.

Well, I guess I shouldn't hit the reply button when still half asleep... ;)

Cheers
Arne

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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Evan Murphy]

Og, thanks for the thorough explanation.

Evan Murphy
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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Og Maciel]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Arne Goetje  wrote:
> Those comments are placed into the upstream source code by upstream
> developers. Those would be the ones to yell at. (Except of course if the
> string results of a ubuntu patch, then it would be that guy whoever
> made/applied the patch).

I'm pretty sure you didn't mean this literally, but imho we should
strive to pave the way for more harmony between translators and
developers, Ubuntu and upstream projects. Don't take it this the wrong
way but your comment didn't really help the issue.

> We template uploaders have nothing to do with that. :)

Quite the opposite, you can teach/empower translators to become more
familiarized with how FOSS projects work and how they can become
better citizens. :)

Cheers,
-- 
Og B. Maciel

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ogmac...@gnome.org
ogmac...@ubuntu.com

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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Og Maciel]

2009/4/6 Evan Murphy :
> String 6, template "jockey", package "jockey"
> String 7, template "jockey", package "jockey"

Hi Evan, the Jockey package source code is maintained outside of
Ubuntu and can be looked at http://home.gna.org/jockey/. I recommend
you send an email to the maintainer, and kindly explain the situation
so that he can remedy it.

> String 83, template "libkpgp", package "kdepim"

The package libkpgp is part of the kdepim package, which is part of
the upstream KDE project. I poked around and found out that the
Spanish version for libkpgp is already 100% translated upstream
(http://i18n.kde.org/stats/gui/trunk-kde4/team/es/kdepim/) and there
should not be a need for you to translate it again for Ubuntu.
However, and this is only my opinion, it would be best for you to get
in touch with the KDE Spanish team and report the issue there for the
same reason I've already mentioned. Please, do feel free to ask me
more information on how to do this. :)

Cheers,
-- 
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ogmac...@ubuntu.com

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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Arne Goetje]

Oleg Koptev wrote:

> Want to appeal to all those, who responsible for upload translation
> templates onto Rosetta.
> I understand, that this mail list not the best place for yell to
> developers, but imho better doesn't exist.
> 
> The cause of problem is in the poor comment for translators in items,
> where are only adjectives placed.

Those comments are placed into the upstream source code by upstream
developers. Those would be the ones to yell at. (Except of course if the
string results of a ubuntu patch, then it would be that guy whoever
made/applied the patch).
We template uploaders have nothing to do with that. :)

Cheers
Arne

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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Evan Murphy]

2009/4/6 Oleg Koptev 

> 2009/4/6 Evan Murphy 
>
>>
>> I'm glad someone brought this up. We have the same issue in Spanish
>> translations.
>>
>> Yesterday, for instance, I ran into a string that simply read "Disabled".
>> That's fine in English, but without reference to the context--specifically
>> whether it's a singular or plural noun being disabled ("desactivad*o*" or
>> "desactivad*os*"), and then whether that noun in Spanish is masculine or
>> feminine ("desactivad*o*(s)" or "desactivad*a*(s)")--selecting any one of
>> the four is just a gamble.
>>
>> If there's any way for this context to be readily available to the
>> translators (and maybe there already is one that I'm just ignorant about) it
>> would certainly be helpful.
>
>
> So, how about listing the name of the packages/applications you're
> seeing these strings so that we can focus in:
>
> * Figuring out if the problem exists in upstream source, and if so...
> * File bugs where is appropriate and submit patches;
> * Get the developer/maintainer's input and hopefully resolve it for good
>

Three examples from the Spanish Jaunty translations:

String 6, template "jockey", package
"jockey"
String 7, template "jockey", package
"jockey"
String 83, template "libkpgp", package
"kdepim"

Evan Murphy
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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Oleg Koptev]

sound idea. i will collect all similar information henceforth

2009/4/6 Og Maciel 

> In order to resolve these types of problems, it is *extremely*
> important to be as precise as possible, so to avoid wasting time from
> all parties.
>
> So, how about listing the name of the packages/applications you're
> seeing these strings so that we can focus in:
>
> * Figuring out if the problem exists in upstream source, and if so...
> * File bugs where is appropriate and submit patches;
> * Get the developer/maintainer's input and hopefully resolve it for good
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Og B. Maciel
>
> omac...@foresightlinux.org
> ogmac...@gnome.org
> ogmac...@ubuntu.com
>
> GPG Keys: D5CFC202
>
> http://www.ogmaciel.com (en_US)
> http://blog.ogmaciel.com (pt_BR)
>



-- 
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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Og Maciel]

In order to resolve these types of problems, it is *extremely*
important to be as precise as possible, so to avoid wasting time from
all parties.

So, how about listing the name of the packages/applications you're
seeing these strings so that we can focus in:

* Figuring out if the problem exists in upstream source, and if so...
* File bugs where is appropriate and submit patches;
* Get the developer/maintainer's input and hopefully resolve it for good

Cheers,
-- 
Og B. Maciel

omac...@foresightlinux.org
ogmac...@gnome.org
ogmac...@ubuntu.com

GPG Keys: D5CFC202

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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Evan Murphy]

2009/4/6 Oleg Koptev 

> Hello all!
>
> Want to appeal to all those, who responsible for upload translation
> templates onto Rosetta.
> I understand, that this mail list not the best place for yell to
> developers, but imho better doesn't exist.
>
> The cause of problem is in the poor comment for translators in items, where
> are only adjectives placed.
> And the problem itself is that adjectives in English doesn't have gender,
> in contradistinction to e.g. Russian.
>
> For example 'tall guy' in english is 'высокИЙ парень' in russian, but 'tall
> girl' is 'высокАЯ девушка'.
> As you see, ending of adjectives is different, depends on gender of noun.
>
> For example - *http://tinyurl.com/cj3r6e
>
> *In this string there are only adjectives and no comments at all about
> what it's adjectives about.
>
> So, I ask all who can contribute for better commenting of similar strings
> do that.
>
> Best wishes to all!
> --
> C уважением, Коптев Олег
> With respect,  Oleg Koptev
>
> Jabber ID - koptevo...@jabber.ru
> Launchpad - 
> https://launchpad.net/~koptev-oleg
> WWW - http://ktulhuntu.blogspot.com
>

I'm glad someone brought this up. We have the same issue in Spanish
translations.

Yesterday, for instance, I ran into a string that simply read "Disabled".
That's fine in English, but without reference to the context--specifically
whether it's a singular or plural noun being disabled ("desactivad*o*" or
"desactivad*os*"), and then whether that noun in Spanish is masculine or
feminine ("desactivado(s)" or "desactivad*a*(s)")--selecting any one of the
four is just a gamble.

If there's any way for this context to be readily available to the
translators (and maybe there already is one that I'm just ignorant about) it
would certainly be helpful.

Evan Murphy
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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Oleg Koptev]

ok. bad example. but this is not deal with problem i suppose. that was only
example.

2009/4/6 Daniel Nylander 

> mån 2009-04-06 klockan 22:28 +0400 skrev Oleg Koptev:
> > Hello all!
> >
> > Want to appeal to all those, who responsible for upload translation
> > templates onto Rosetta.
> > I understand, that this mail list not the best place for yell to
> > developers, but imho better doesn't exist.
>
> Sabayon is 100% translated upstreams (GNOME). Why invent the wheel
> again?
>
> http://l10n.gnome.org/POT/sabayon.HEAD/sabayon.HEAD.ru.po
>
> Regards,
> Daniel
>
>
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>



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Re: Appeal to the developers/translators

[Daniel Nylander]

mån 2009-04-06 klockan 22:28 +0400 skrev Oleg Koptev:
> Hello all!
> 
> Want to appeal to all those, who responsible for upload translation
> templates onto Rosetta.
> I understand, that this mail list not the best place for yell to
> developers, but imho better doesn't exist.

Sabayon is 100% translated upstreams (GNOME). Why invent the wheel
again?

http://l10n.gnome.org/POT/sabayon.HEAD/sabayon.HEAD.ru.po

Regards,
Daniel


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