Re: [ubuntu-uk] Free lunch?

2012-03-25 Thread Andres 

On 25/03/12 11:06, alan c wrote:

On 24/03/12 11:08, Chris Penston wrote:

[snip of really good stuff]


  People tend to be impressed by the novelty
that they have a choice.  Almost always, the reaction is astonishment
that something can be so good without costing anything 'so there must be
a catch'.

Yes I find that a lot, also. It is difficult explaining that although
there is no such thing as a free lunch (probably true), that there
*is* Libre software. But then, there is -some- good in the world. I
was in Paris  for a short trip recently and on two occasions, complete
strangers helped with acts of kindness. One gent insisted I took his
seat on a crowded bus (1) and later that day I (we) were lost on the
Metro and a couple noticed this and helped us get sorted.

1) He looked at least as old as I am! But I guess he saw my walking
stick and also I was very unpractised and clumsy trying to get a hand
hold. Slightly embarrassing to get noticed in such a way, but
heartwarming and appreciated nevertheless.


'keep calm and carry on!'  The times are changing.

Yay!

I am glad you brought this up. Whilst going over the free software 
concept with my neighbour whilst setting ubuntu on a USB stick for her 
to try out she mentioned "So there is not going to be pop ups asking me 
for purchasing such and such or asking for donations?". I was happy to 
say no. But that there where places where she could donate to help the 
cause. I normally just tell them that there are big companies competing 
against each other using the same product and they can use each others 
improvements so the user is always a winner.


And this also lets me share something I suspected but had not basis for 
it. If someone wants scientific and historical evidence as to why people 
are now kinder (and give out free lunch!) I could refer them to two books.


[1]  ¨The better angels our our nature¨ written by Steven Pinker which I 
am reading now goes over the historical reasons and shows how we are 
less violent now. That is even taking into account the WW1&2!


[2] "Wired for culture: The natural history of human cooperation" By 
Mark Pagel have not read it yet (looking it up in Calibre as I write 
these lines) but shows how we where able to evolve quicker than other 
animals because we found cooperation to be more effective.


I will probably use these as arguments for the harder to convince.


PS: Sorry to the links to newspaper that might not be everybody's cup of 
tea but it is where I get my podcast from.
[1] 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/audio/2012/mar/19/science-weekly-podcast-wired-culture 


http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/audio/2012/mar/19/science-weekly-podcast-wired-culture



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Free lunch?

2012-03-25 Thread paul sutton 
On 25/03/12 11:47, Grant Phillips-Sewell wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 11:06:04 +0100
> alan c wrote:
>
>> On 24/03/12 11:08, Chris Penston wrote:
>>
>> [snip of really good stuff]
>>
>>>  People tend to be impressed by the novelty 
>>> that they have a choice.  Almost always, the reaction is
>>> astonishment that something can be so good without costing anything
>>> 'so there must be a catch'.
>> Yes I find that a lot, also. It is difficult explaining that although
>> there is no such thing as a free lunch (probably true), that there
>> *is* Libre software.
> I think I've posted on here before with my 2 principle examples. In no
> particular order:
>
> 1) "Doing in their spare time? It can't be any good then":
> Just because somebody does it for free (possibly in their spare
> time) does not mean that it is of a lower quality than paid-for
> software. Indeed many people who contribute to Free Software projects
> maintain paid-for jobs doing the same thing - many Free Software
> programmers have paid-for jobs writing software; many Free Software
> designers have paid-for jobs doing design work. Just because they also
> do so for free does not mean their Free work is of a lesser quality. A
> professional footballer playing a charity match won't play any worse
> because they're not getting paid for it.
>
> 2) "But they're highly-paid professionals. The average Jo(e) couldn't
> do that".
> Yes they can. St. John's Ambulance. Average people putting their
> knowledge and skills to use helping their community.

How about volunteer coaches, 
people at sports clubs,  volunteer web masters,  
people who perhaps volunteer in a child protection role,   you expect
them to do their job  including ensuring others are doing their job
properly,  paid or unpaid if you are a club child welfare officer you
have a great deal of responsibility.   this can really clash with
employment,  

>
> Grant.

Yeah I like the 2nd analogy,  However it seems rather worrying that
people who think that doing something unpaid means they are not doing a
good job, in fact this could be seen as highly offensive and insulting.  

We find errors in Windows., hear about bugs,  get viruses and just carry
on and seem to put up with it,  despite paying for the software (ok the
cost is hidden in a new computer) and yet when we try free software we
brand it poor if it does not live up to what we expect,  maybe we still
expect too much.

Is this free software must be bad because its free attitude. world wide
does it vary by country,  it seems other countries are more willing to
try, are more open minded,   maybe we need to do some research in to
where this issue crops up and then see if we can solve it,  by learning
from where it is doing well.,

It seems countries such as Africa embrace free software,  I think i read
that Brazil does because it wants its financial assets to say in Brazil
rather than going in to the pockets of executives in the USA,  so people
have different reasons,   they use it because it works not because it's
free,  it works because they are open minded,  and willing to try new
things willing to learn new things,  something that some countries find
hard either way.



Paul

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread Alan Pope 
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On 25/03/12 10:48, scoundrel50a wrote:
> I am glad that he has been helpful to you, but this thread has
> shown a different side, one that says, if you dont like it go
> elsewhere, is that helpful, that is effectively telling people he
> has no time for them, that isnt consistent.if he keeps saying
> that people will start going elsewhere..is that what you really
> want?
> 

It's less "if you dont like it go elsewhere" and more "if all you're
going to do is bitch and not actually do anything constructive then we
probably won't mourn your disappearance".

We already get an awful lot of feedback about Unity, Ubuntu and all
the bits and pieces around it. I'm not saying we don't need more
feedback, just that the feedback needs to be targeted to the right
place, at the right time and in the right language.

For example.

A mail to the Ubuntu-UK mailing list saying "Unity sucks, I'm
switching to Mint" isn't even remotely useful to anyone at all.

A mail to the Unity-design list saying "I've noticed that the icons
react in a way that doesn't match the design" or "I've installed
Ubuntu for a number of users and they've all commented on how hard it
is to access their devices, I suggest the following changes" perhaps
with a picture to explain how it can be improved, is likely to be more
useful.

Making Ubuntu better requires work on all sides, firing hate messages
into the sky doesn't work at all.

Cheers,
- -- 
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Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
+44 (0) 7973 620 164
alan.p...@canonical.com
http://ubuntu.com/
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread Avi Greenbury 
Liam Proven wrote:

> Unity is getting quite mature now. None of what I'm proposing is new
> code - this is all either restoring features that were one present, or
> things that have been accomplished by hacks, config tweaks and so on.
> It's all doable. But it's not getting any more configurable - in fact,
> options are /disappearing./ This is a very serious error of judgement,
> I think.

I do maintain that Gnome3 is what happened when the Gnome developers
decided that Gnome 2 was too configurable by half, which wasn't long
after everyone else decided it was nicely customisable.

In more seriousness, I think Unity's likely to go down the route of
Gnome 3, where the customisability and features that people want and
expect are provided by extensions and plugins[0] rather than the core
product itself. That frees up the Unity developers to focus completely
on the functionality that Canonical regard as important and means that
they don't need to support other people's daft ideas, and gets the DE
back towards the modular approach that's so invaluable for the rest of
the OS. 

This does, of course, completely break the assumption that every
Unity/Gnome3 install is roughly the same (which, apparently, is one of
the plus sides of making it hard to customise), but I suspect that in
environments where that's desirable it's trivial to simply prevent the
installation of these extensions to force people to maintain a normal
UI.

-- 
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[0] I have no idea about Unity's architecture here, though I've heard
mention of plugins and add-ons for it.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Free lunch?

2012-03-25 Thread Jacob Mansfield 
On 25 Mar 2012, at 11:47, Grant Phillips-Sewell wrote:
> Indeed many people who contribute to Free Software projects
> maintain paid-for jobs doing the same thing - many Free Software
> programmers have paid-for jobs writing software; many Free Software
> designers have paid-for jobs doing design work.

Hello!
JACOB MANSFIELD / Lead Developer
Blue Sapphire Media
email:  ja...@bluesapphiremedia.co.uk
skype:  jacob.mansfield 

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread alan c 
On 25/03/12 11:11, scoundrel50a wrote:
>  its taking me forever to get 
> used to Ubuntu, trying another distro isnt going to workplus, from 
> what I can see, a lot of you are members of other distros too.this 
> distro is enough

(I do wish you well with the health problems)

I find that Lubuntu is pretty comfortable, and IIRC it is possible to
install a ppa offering gnome desktop, or at least it gave pretty
familiar menus etc. All of these and maybe more, can be installed as
desktop sessions, into Ubuntu, and chosen at logon.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Free lunch?

2012-03-25 Thread Grant Phillips-Sewell 
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 11:06:04 +0100
alan c wrote:

> On 24/03/12 11:08, Chris Penston wrote:
> 
> [snip of really good stuff]
> 
> >  People tend to be impressed by the novelty 
> > that they have a choice.  Almost always, the reaction is
> > astonishment that something can be so good without costing anything
> > 'so there must be a catch'.
> 
> Yes I find that a lot, also. It is difficult explaining that although
> there is no such thing as a free lunch (probably true), that there
> *is* Libre software.

I think I've posted on here before with my 2 principle examples. In no
particular order:

1) "Doing in their spare time? It can't be any good then":
Just because somebody does it for free (possibly in their spare
time) does not mean that it is of a lower quality than paid-for
software. Indeed many people who contribute to Free Software projects
maintain paid-for jobs doing the same thing - many Free Software
programmers have paid-for jobs writing software; many Free Software
designers have paid-for jobs doing design work. Just because they also
do so for free does not mean their Free work is of a lesser quality. A
professional footballer playing a charity match won't play any worse
because they're not getting paid for it.

2) "But they're highly-paid professionals. The average Jo(e) couldn't
do that".
Yes they can. St. John's Ambulance. Average people putting their
knowledge and skills to use helping their community.

Grant.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread alan c 
On 24/03/12 01:38, Liam Proven wrote:
> However, I do think that Unity in general is not /nearly/ as
> customisable as Linux users tend to be used to.

I would expect more customisable options as time goes on. I have read
a statement which said that it was not policy to lack customise
options, but first things first.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread alan c 
On 23/03/12 22:23, Daniel Case wrote:
> I've been in the Ubuntu community for 5 years already and don't plan
> on leaving any time soon, but I think there needs to be some
> representation of the hacker culture that Ubuntu has built up over the
> years so that we can find the middle ground, it seems to me as though
> Canonical wants to believe that we are not here!

I think that there has been emotional hurt and upset which may have
been difficult but not impossible to avoid. I trust that ubuntu will
weather this with time, but I would have liked to have seen a
situation when a very senior Canonical marketing resource would have
handled some of the inevitable community pain a bit more elegantly.
Although it would be somewhat unprecedented in a normal business
environment.  But like a racing car, the direction can be changed in
an instant. I trust Ubuntu will win!
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread Alan Bell 

On 23/03/12 21:06, Daniel Case wrote:
I'm not saying don't evolve, just evolve in a way that most users 
agree is a good idea,
so how do we define what most users want? Perhaps by doing rather a lot 
of user testing

http://davidplanella.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/looking-for-testers-in-london/
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-April/032988.html
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/user-testing-of-unity-reveals-some-surprising-results/

this does of course lead to certain problems when they don't give the 
users time to sober up first

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/764905

but in the main it seems a reasonable approach.


I thought that was the aim of Linux?

not really, Linux is just the kernel.
Who's driving the development course here? The users or canonical? 
the contributors to the project, which is mostly but not exclusively 
Canonical. Why would you think that the users drive the development course?


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread alan c 
On 25/03/12 11:08, Alan Bell wrote:
> little stopping you from actually dragging it in the direction you want 
> to go. Really. Participate remotely online in the developer summit that 

Oh I perhaps should mention. I had an idea for a minor improvement (I
think 'significant'  ) in how Launcher icons react. I raised a
bug, also contacted the lead developer on the desktop, and before long
the bug was accepted. Will be in a very very long queue though, but I
can say with certainty that Unity is open  to change.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread alan c 
On 25/03/12 10:48, scoundrel50a wrote:
> On 25/03/2012 10:18, alan c wrote:
>> On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote:
>>> On 23/03/2012 22:04, Alan Pope wrote:
>>> On 23/03/12 21:45, Daniel Case wrote:
>> On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood
>>wrote:
>>> They spent lots of money testing different behaviours
>> In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people
>> Linux attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in
>> the general sense).
>>> That's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Not asking the
>>> target audience, but only asking hackers would be arrogant and
>>> foolhardy. That's why we don't do that. We do listen to feedback, more
>>> than you'd imagine, and decisions taken about design (for example) are
>>> directly affected by user feedback. That doesn't happen for every
>>> minute decision, but it happens.
>>>
>>> We're also making it easier to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed
>>> by talking to hardware vendors, to get it shipped from the factory.
>>> It's hard work and takes a long time to do but we're getting there.
>>>
>> Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate
>> Ubuntu if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult?
>>
>>> Those of us who do like it, do use it and believe it is the right path
>>> for Ubuntu to take. If you don't then you have a number of options:-
>>>
>>> * Install a different desktop environment on your Ubuntu system
>>> * Join the discussion on the various Ubuntu development lists to
>>> articulate how we're doing things wrong
>>> * Test and file bugs when things don't work correctly
>>> * Provide patches or programs to help Ubuntu&   Unity to appeal
>>>
>>> Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is
>>> fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to
>>> persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal
>>> is worth it.
>>>
>>> Frankly if people who are "inside" our community, "hackers" as you
>>> call them aren't willing to get stuck in then Linux Mint, Debian,
>>> Fedora and hundreds of other distros are ->   that way. Enjoy!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> oooh and who took your dummy away...that was my reaction when I read
>>> that...but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to
>>> say that, whatever happenswhat is frustrating is people on here
>>> are giving an opinion and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter
>>> because you have all this research into what people like, but people are
>>> here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people
>>> have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its getting
>>> worse.
>> I think that is an unfair response. Alan has personally given me
>> unbelievable support over many years  for my activities as a volunteer
>> advocate of FLOSS and Ubuntu.
>> What he says is sensible and quite proper, and I am delighted that he
>> has the courage to post on this group.
> I am glad that he has been helpful to you, but this thread has shown a 
> different side, one that says, if you dont like it go elsewhere, is that 
> helpful, that is effectively telling people he has no time for them, 
> that isnt consistent.if he keeps saying that people will start going 
> elsewhere..is that what you really want?

On the contrary. I went up to a counter in a (french) market and asked
for a cup of tea. I was treated politely, however they explained  they
 were a restaurant  counter only and  did not serve drinks, however
they were careful to direct me to a nearby counter which was a bar,
and served exactly what wanted. the same happened when I  went into a
shop wantnig a bottle of milk. I got directed to another shop 400
meters away, and did manage to get what I wanted.

It is, surely, quite appropriate to be directed to a place to get what
you say you want?
Anything else would be unhelpful.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread scoundrel50a 

On 23/03/2012 22:44, Alan Pope wrote:

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On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote:

oooh and who took your dummy away...

Actually my patience is somewhat thin today because we cremated my
best friends Mum. Perhaps that has a bearing on my response, but it
puts things in perspective. Life is short.

Sorry if it seems that I'm being more harsh than usual. I'm just
pretty tired of people bitching about Ubuntu and Unity and doing
nothing about it but sending rants to people who can't actually fix
the problem.

We have developer lists and IRC channels for a reason, use them.


that was my reaction when I read that...but the thing is, you
work for Canonical, so your going to say that, whatever
happens

That's pretty insulting to me. Well done.


what is frustrating is people on here are giving an opinion

"Opinions are like, everyone has one".


and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter because you have
all this research into what people like, but people are here
telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people
have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its
getting worse.


Other distros are available.

Cheers,
- -- 
Alan Pope


I wasnt going to say this, but I will anyway, havent had a very good 
couple of weeks either, apart from the life threatening disease I have 
that am being kept alive by toxic drugs that I have to take every day, I 
can barely walk, because I have chronic condition called plantar 
fasciitis that causes me pain from my toes to my knees which even with 
treatment its not going, I also have a condition that is called 
arthropathy, that also causes me pain, and to top it off this week I 
found out I have another degenerative condition which is neuropathy, 
which is the nerves dying in my feet, which is most likely caused from 
the toxic drugs I have to take every day that keep me alive.so 
you'll have to excuse me if `I am 'cranky' too...plus the fact to be 
told go somewhere else, is not an option, its taking me forever to get 
used to Ubuntu, trying another distro isnt going to workplus, from 
what I can see, a lot of you are members of other distros too.this 
distro is enough


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread Alan Bell 

On 25/03/12 10:48, scoundrel50a wrote:
I am glad that he has been helpful to you, but this thread has shown a 
different side, one that says, if you dont like it go elsewhere, is 
that helpful, that is effectively telling people he has no time for 
them, that isnt consistent.if he keeps saying that people will 
start going elsewhere..is that what you really want?


as long as people keep using and contributing to Free Software it is all 
good. If you want Ubuntu to go in a particular direction there is very 
little stopping you from actually dragging it in the direction you want 
to go. Really. Participate remotely online in the developer summit that 
is coming up in May, get involved in the various project mailing lists 
and IRC channels, attend the meetings of the teams that are making the 
decisions in these things etc. If some other distribution happens to be 
going the way you want to go then by all means tag along with that. At 
the last UDS I think Mark made the point that the opinions of those who 
contribute to the project are valued a lot more than the opinions of 
people who just use Ubuntu and have an opinion. Unity is quite 
extendable in different ways and the documentation on it is improving 
all the time, you can read all about it here:

http://developer.ubuntu.com/
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity

if you want to do interesting things and influence the direction then 
you can. If you are just along for the ride, relax and enjoy it.


Alan.

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[ubuntu-uk] Free lunch?

2012-03-25 Thread alan c 
On 24/03/12 11:08, Chris Penston wrote:

[snip of really good stuff]

>  People tend to be impressed by the novelty 
> that they have a choice.  Almost always, the reaction is astonishment 
> that something can be so good without costing anything 'so there must be 
> a catch'.

Yes I find that a lot, also. It is difficult explaining that although
there is no such thing as a free lunch (probably true), that there
*is* Libre software. But then, there is -some- good in the world. I
was in Paris  for a short trip recently and on two occasions, complete
strangers helped with acts of kindness. One gent insisted I took his
seat on a crowded bus (1) and later that day I (we) were lost on the
Metro and a couple noticed this and helped us get sorted.

1) He looked at least as old as I am! But I guess he saw my walking
stick and also I was very unpractised and clumsy trying to get a hand
hold. Slightly embarrassing to get noticed in such a way, but
heartwarming and appreciated nevertheless.

> 'keep calm and carry on!'  The times are changing.

Yay!

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread scoundrel50a 

On 25/03/2012 10:18, alan c wrote:

On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote:

On 23/03/2012 22:04, Alan Pope wrote:
On 23/03/12 21:45, Daniel Case wrote:

On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood
   wrote:

They spent lots of money testing different behaviours

In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people
Linux attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in
the general sense).

That's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Not asking the
target audience, but only asking hackers would be arrogant and
foolhardy. That's why we don't do that. We do listen to feedback, more
than you'd imagine, and decisions taken about design (for example) are
directly affected by user feedback. That doesn't happen for every
minute decision, but it happens.

We're also making it easier to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed
by talking to hardware vendors, to get it shipped from the factory.
It's hard work and takes a long time to do but we're getting there.


Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate
Ubuntu if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult?


Those of us who do like it, do use it and believe it is the right path
for Ubuntu to take. If you don't then you have a number of options:-

* Install a different desktop environment on your Ubuntu system
* Join the discussion on the various Ubuntu development lists to
articulate how we're doing things wrong
* Test and file bugs when things don't work correctly
* Provide patches or programs to help Ubuntu&   Unity to appeal

Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is
fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to
persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal
is worth it.

Frankly if people who are "inside" our community, "hackers" as you
call them aren't willing to get stuck in then Linux Mint, Debian,
Fedora and hundreds of other distros are ->   that way. Enjoy!

Cheers,
oooh and who took your dummy away...that was my reaction when I read
that...but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to
say that, whatever happenswhat is frustrating is people on here
are giving an opinion and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter
because you have all this research into what people like, but people are
here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people
have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its getting
worse.

I think that is an unfair response. Alan has personally given me
unbelievable support over many years  for my activities as a volunteer
advocate of FLOSS and Ubuntu.
What he says is sensible and quite proper, and I am delighted that he
has the courage to post on this group.
I am glad that he has been helpful to you, but this thread has shown a 
different side, one that says, if you dont like it go elsewhere, is that 
helpful, that is effectively telling people he has no time for them, 
that isnt consistent.if he keeps saying that people will start going 
elsewhere..is that what you really want?




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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread alan c 
On 23/03/12 22:51, scoundrel50a wrote:
> .I never once since 11.04 have seen anything about testing, 
> being involved, but I see people on here and have had to ask myself, and 
> there is a tendency to either ignore or react the way you have, and you 
> wonder why people get angry...first I have heard of the testing done 
> in this threadwould have been nice to be involved in that...

Mark Shuttleworth has a regular and amazingly detailed blog, he also
has IRC sessions for Q & A, I  attended at least one. The governance
of Ubuntu is amazingly open and on record. There is a real lot of
stuff open and online, including a lot of videos of interviews and
conferences. I should say I think Mark S is a far sighted genius. The
one thing that you do not get with Ubuntu or Canonical is bullsh*t and
spin. In today's world this can be hard to accept. If information was
being looked for then there is a *lot* of raw information available,
but no marketing spin.

People got angry because they got hurt. There was plenty of
explanation available, and very detailed it was too, and some long
discussions on lists, some painful. However, afaik Canonical was not
contrite about the changes, and I think that a 'Sorry, we really *do*
have to go this way' would have helped. The lack of a 'sorry' is
something I noticed, and is a bit surprising because it would not cost
anything. But I guess that is what happens when there is no 'spin'.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread alan c 
On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote:
> On 23/03/2012 22:04, Alan Pope wrote:
> On 23/03/12 21:45, Daniel Case wrote:
 On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood
   wrote:
> They spent lots of money testing different behaviours
 In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people
 Linux attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in
 the general sense).
> That's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Not asking the
> target audience, but only asking hackers would be arrogant and
> foolhardy. That's why we don't do that. We do listen to feedback, more
> than you'd imagine, and decisions taken about design (for example) are
> directly affected by user feedback. That doesn't happen for every
> minute decision, but it happens.
> 
> We're also making it easier to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed
> by talking to hardware vendors, to get it shipped from the factory.
> It's hard work and takes a long time to do but we're getting there.
> 
 Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate
 Ubuntu if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult?

> Those of us who do like it, do use it and believe it is the right path
> for Ubuntu to take. If you don't then you have a number of options:-
> 
> * Install a different desktop environment on your Ubuntu system
> * Join the discussion on the various Ubuntu development lists to
> articulate how we're doing things wrong
> * Test and file bugs when things don't work correctly
> * Provide patches or programs to help Ubuntu&  Unity to appeal
> 
> Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is
> fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to
> persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal
> is worth it.
> 
> Frankly if people who are "inside" our community, "hackers" as you
> call them aren't willing to get stuck in then Linux Mint, Debian,
> Fedora and hundreds of other distros are ->  that way. Enjoy!
> 
> Cheers,
>>
> oooh and who took your dummy away...that was my reaction when I read 
> that...but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to 
> say that, whatever happenswhat is frustrating is people on here 
> are giving an opinion and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter 
> because you have all this research into what people like, but people are 
> here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people 
> have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its getting 
> worse.

I think that is an unfair response. Alan has personally given me
unbelievable support over many years  for my activities as a volunteer
advocate of FLOSS and Ubuntu.
What he says is sensible and quite proper, and I am delighted that he
has the courage to post on this group.
-- 
alan cocks

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread alan c 
On 23/03/12 21:06, Alan Bell wrote:
> On 23/03/12 20:16, Hakan Koseoglu wrote:
>> 
>> Treating users as idiots is not a policy, it's a mistake.
>> As soon as I find a distribution worth installing everywhere, I'll be
>> switching. Mint doesn't cut the mustard. I'm a Kubuntu/Lubuntu user on
>> desktop and Ubuntu server  but I don't want to anymore, I don't want
>> to have anything with Ubuntu products.
>>
>> I know the PR spin, "it's to make new users' life easy" yada yada
>> yada. But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in
>> most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about
>> Ubuntu to anyone anymore.
>> 
>>
> ok, well as long as you are still using Free Software it is all good. 
> The dodge thing was something Mark Shuttleworth really liked too, but 
> when they did lots of user testing and watched the videos of people 
> being confused by it they dropped the concept.
> there is more about the decision here
> https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg07835.html

When I used unity for the very first time I was irritated and confused
by the dodging launcher, and I can easily understand that novices and
newcomers will have problems also. And at the time my explicit advice
to someone who was going to put it on their Dad's PC was to - at least
 -  stop the autohide launcher.

As a more fluent and more confident user now I am probably happy with
dodge or autohide, but  I do realise  this stuff is cutting edge and
still developing. And doge launcher is pretty neat.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....

2012-03-25 Thread alan c 
On 23/03/12 21:06, Daniel Case wrote:
> I'm not saying don't evolve, just evolve in a way that most users
> agree is a good idea


Catch 22. Unfortunately  the vocal  people who do not  like something
have plenty of placard space and ability to dampen a new flame.
Evolution is a risk, a real risk. It happens by (sometimes brutal) death.
And the good guys do not necessarily win. Canonical is not perfect,
including its community marketing interaction, but it is trying to
evolve stuff 'we' know and love and trying to look to a bigger future.
Are 'we', 'most' users? This is the thinking of a status quo. If this
direction of evolution was easy then why has it not been done before?
So, what exactly is a 'good' idea?, and who are 'most' people?
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