Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Laura Czajkowski]

On 12/04/10 16:30, Paul Sutton wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bruce Beardall wrote:
>
>> I certainly don't want to be pushing a political agenda (especially
>> where it's not wanted) and Alan makes a perfectly reasonable point but I
>> can't help but consider the following: For a group of Linux supporters
>> [albeit, a specific distribution], it seems a bit odd that there isn't
>> more discussion of this kind of subject. I'm neither making accusations
>> nor offering challenges. Just a thought.
>>
>> Many thanks for your patience.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>  
> I agree here, while this may be considered not ubuntu related, perhaps
> it is,  as these laws affect free software,  If companies with huge
> budgets can lobby and fund parties to get their views across and heard,
>   it leaves those groups with less money on a less level playing field.
>
> if we discuss these issues elsewhere they may get read by a minortiy of
> people,  if they get discussed here, then more people will read them,
>
> if they are to be taken off list, perhaps someone could be a liason and
> mention such a discussion and invite people from other lists to the
> discussion.
>
> Paul
>
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkvDPHQACgkQaggq1k2FJq2plQCfaJ6imnCqOajAndtshpS5di5x
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> =2312
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>
>
Paul I think it's a case that if this conversation happened on IRC you'd 
be asked to take it elsewhere to ##politics not in an Ubuntu channel, 
where we try and avoid topics which tend to end up in some sort of 
controversy such as politics religion etc. as we're abide by the code of 
conduct.


Laura

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[James Thomas]

For my penneth worth, I saw no flame in this discussion.
Everyone conducting themselves impeccably.

:)

JT

On 12 April 2010 16:30, Paul Sutton  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bruce Beardall wrote:
> > I certainly don't want to be pushing a political agenda (especially
> > where it's not wanted) and Alan makes a perfectly reasonable point but I
> > can't help but consider the following: For a group of Linux supporters
> > [albeit, a specific distribution], it seems a bit odd that there isn't
> > more discussion of this kind of subject. I'm neither making accusations
> > nor offering challenges. Just a thought.
> >
> > Many thanks for your patience.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Bruce
> >
>
> I agree here, while this may be considered not ubuntu related, perhaps
> it is,  as these laws affect free software,  If companies with huge
> budgets can lobby and fund parties to get their views across and heard,
>  it leaves those groups with less money on a less level playing field.
>
> if we discuss these issues elsewhere they may get read by a minortiy of
> people,  if they get discussed here, then more people will read them,
>
> if they are to be taken off list, perhaps someone could be a liason and
> mention such a discussion and invite people from other lists to the
> discussion.
>
> Paul
>
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkvDPHQACgkQaggq1k2FJq2plQCfaJ6imnCqOajAndtshpS5di5x
> N/0An01HsMqDIjowl+kcfSW1uKbAiAjI
> =2312
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
> --
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> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Paul Sutton]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Bruce Beardall wrote:
> I certainly don't want to be pushing a political agenda (especially
> where it's not wanted) and Alan makes a perfectly reasonable point but I
> can't help but consider the following: For a group of Linux supporters
> [albeit, a specific distribution], it seems a bit odd that there isn't
> more discussion of this kind of subject. I'm neither making accusations
> nor offering challenges. Just a thought.
> 
> Many thanks for your patience.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Bruce
> 

I agree here, while this may be considered not ubuntu related, perhaps
it is,  as these laws affect free software,  If companies with huge
budgets can lobby and fund parties to get their views across and heard,
 it leaves those groups with less money on a less level playing field.

if we discuss these issues elsewhere they may get read by a minortiy of
people,  if they get discussed here, then more people will read them,

if they are to be taken off list, perhaps someone could be a liason and
mention such a discussion and invite people from other lists to the
discussion.

Paul


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkvDPHQACgkQaggq1k2FJq2plQCfaJ6imnCqOajAndtshpS5di5x
N/0An01HsMqDIjowl+kcfSW1uKbAiAjI
=2312
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[John Matthews]

I didnt mean any hostilities either, it was a genuine question. Its did 
seem strange to me that something like this bill is not discussed on a 
newsgroup like this. Nothing has been brought forward about it at all. I 
am not really sure why its turned into a flame.


Sad really,

John,.

On 12/04/10 16:06, Tommy Pyatt wrote:
Apologies Alan, I did not mean any hostility in my response to your 
email, which was a fair and reasonable comment. I just wanted to point 
out that I have no problems with Paula's original email, as I'm sure 
I'm not the only one.


Since I see you are using gmail, assuming that you are accessing your 
mail through the standard interface, there is a function to 'Mute' 
conversations if you prefer to be excluded from responses to the 
thread. I use the function frequently with mailing lists. You may 
already know about it, just pointing it out.


Regards,

Tommy

(PS - '#8 - If this is your first night at ubuntu-uk, you have to 
install.' i like that one, made me chuckle.)


On 12 April 2010 15:49, Alan Lord (News) > wrote:


On 12/04/10 15:13, John Matthews wrote:
> I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so
taboo. It
> affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit.
>
> I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative
> response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged.

Blimey - It wasn't intended to be "such a negative response". That is
why I phrased my message the way I did.

I have heard and read a great deal about the debill over the past few
months, have written to my MP on several occasions and am a
politically
interested individual with my own opinions. I didn't however,
think that
the Ubuntu UK mailing list was the most appropriate forum for
discussing
more general politics - which is what this thread had morphed into.

Clearly I was wrong. ;-)


Al


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Alan Lord (News)]

On 12/04/10 16:06, Tommy Pyatt wrote:
> Apologies Alan, I did not mean any hostility in my response to your
> email, which was a fair and reasonable comment. I just wanted to point
> out that I have no problems with Paula's original email, as I'm sure I'm
> not the only one.

No need to apologise.

> Since I see you are using gmail, assuming that you are accessing your
> mail through the standard interface, there is a function to 'Mute'
> conversations if you prefer to be excluded from responses to the thread.
> I use the function frequently with mailing lists. You may already know
> about it, just pointing it out.

Just FYI. I do have a gmail account I use solely for mailing lists but I 
access almost all of the many that I subscribe to via a newsreader (in 
this instance Thunderbird) and disable all forwarding of the mail in 
mailman. So I do not get *any* messages in my gmail account at all :-)

FYI again, these lists, and many thousands of others, are available on 
news.gmane.org.

Al


>
> Regards,
>
> Tommy
>
> (PS - '#8 - If this is your first night at ubuntu-uk, you have to
> install.' i like that one, made me chuckle.)
>
> On 12 April 2010 15:49, Alan Lord (News)  > wrote:
>
> On 12/04/10 15:13, John Matthews wrote:
>  > I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It
>  > affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit.
>  >
>  > I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative
>  > response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged.
>
> Blimey - It wasn't intended to be "such a negative response". That is
> why I phrased my message the way I did.
>
> I have heard and read a great deal about the debill over the past few
> months, have written to my MP on several occasions and am a politically
> interested individual with my own opinions. I didn't however, think that
> the Ubuntu UK mailing list was the most appropriate forum for discussing
> more general politics - which is what this thread had morphed into.
>
> Clearly I was wrong. ;-)
>
>
> Al
>
>
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>
>
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>


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[pa...@fossbox.org.uk]

I do see Alan's point - and I've said most of what I felt needed to be
said now :)

Paula

/ www.fossbox.org.uk
pa...@fossbox.org.uk
Tel: 020 7481 8479
Skype: bastubis
/



Alan Lord (News) wrote:
> On 12/04/10 15:13, John Matthews wrote:
>   
>> I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It
>> affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit.
>>
>> I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative
>> response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged.
>> 
>
> Blimey - It wasn't intended to be "such a negative response". That is 
> why I phrased my message the way I did.
>
> I have heard and read a great deal about the debill over the past few 
> months, have written to my MP on several occasions and am a politically 
> interested individual with my own opinions. I didn't however, think that 
> the Ubuntu UK mailing list was the most appropriate forum for discussing 
> more general politics - which is what this thread had morphed into.
>
> Clearly I was wrong. ;-)
>
>
> Al
>
>
>   

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Tommy Pyatt]

Apologies Alan, I did not mean any hostility in my response to your email,
which was a fair and reasonable comment. I just wanted to point out that I
have no problems with Paula's original email, as I'm sure I'm not the only
one.

Since I see you are using gmail, assuming that you are accessing your mail
through the standard interface, there is a function to 'Mute' conversations
if you prefer to be excluded from responses to the thread. I use the
function frequently with mailing lists. You may already know about it, just
pointing it out.

Regards,

Tommy

(PS - '#8 - If this is your first night at ubuntu-uk, you have to install.'
i like that one, made me chuckle.)

On 12 April 2010 15:49, Alan Lord (News)  wrote:

> On 12/04/10 15:13, John Matthews wrote:
> > I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It
> > affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit.
> >
> > I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative
> > response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged.
>
> Blimey - It wasn't intended to be "such a negative response". That is
> why I phrased my message the way I did.
>
> I have heard and read a great deal about the debill over the past few
> months, have written to my MP on several occasions and am a politically
> interested individual with my own opinions. I didn't however, think that
> the Ubuntu UK mailing list was the most appropriate forum for discussing
> more general politics - which is what this thread had morphed into.
>
> Clearly I was wrong. ;-)
>
>
> Al
>
>
> --
> The Open Learning Centre
> http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com
>
>
> --
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Alan Lord (News)]

On 12/04/10 15:13, John Matthews wrote:
> I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It
> affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit.
>
> I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative
> response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged.

Blimey - It wasn't intended to be "such a negative response". That is 
why I phrased my message the way I did.

I have heard and read a great deal about the debill over the past few 
months, have written to my MP on several occasions and am a politically 
interested individual with my own opinions. I didn't however, think that 
the Ubuntu UK mailing list was the most appropriate forum for discussing 
more general politics - which is what this thread had morphed into.

Clearly I was wrong. ;-)


Al


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Bruce Beardall]

I think Alan's getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop here. In all fairness
(and I'm not trying to put words in his mouth) I think he was simply trying
to advise that discussion lists need to stay within certain parameters in
order to stop going off topic and thus risk descending into slanging
matches. Something that's been known to happen on other, less distinguished
lists.

So, Alan did nothing wrong but perhaps it is something that needs to be
discussed further? For a decision to be made either way?

B


On 12 April 2010 15:13, John Matthews  wrote:

> I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It
> affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit.
>
> I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative
> response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged.
>
> John
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[John Matthews]

I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It 
affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit.

I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative 
response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged.

John

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Tony Travis]

On 12/04/10 13:14, Alan Lord (News) wrote:
> On 12/04/10 13:10, pa...@fossbox.org.uk wrote:
>> Yes, I know - I shouldn't rant either cos I'm an NGO and not supposed to
>> be political ;)
>
> I'm not sure what the "rules" are for this mailing list but it seems to
> me this thread has left the discussion of the deb and is becoming a
> general political rant.

Hello, Alan.

#1 - The first rule of ubuntu-uk is you do not talk about ubuntu-uk.

#2 - The second rule of ubuntu-uk is, you DO NOT talk about ubuntu-uk.

#3 - If someone says Windows, goes limp, taps out, reboot the server.

#4 - Two OS's to a server.

#5 - One OS at a time.

#6 - No Mac's, no shoe-box servers.

#7 - Installs will go on as long as they have to.

#8 - If this is your first night at ubuntu-uk, you have to install.

> Presumably there are other lists where stuff not really to do with
> Ubuntu in the UK should be taken?

Maybe...

Bye,

   Tony.
-- 
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and Health, Greenburn Road, Bucksburn, Aberdeen AB21 9SB, Scotland, UK
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Rowan Berkeley]

On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 14:15 +0100, Alan Lord (News)"
 wrote:
> I'm not sure what the "rules" are for this mailing list but it seems
> to me this thread has left the discussion of the deb and is becoming a
> general political rant. Presumably there are other lists where stuff
> not really to do with Ubuntu in the UK should be taken? Cheers, Alan

Alan, I'm in favour of letting Paula have a good rant. No one who has
done work for "the Worshipful Company of Information Technologists"
deserves to be ignored. I didn't even know there was such a body. Rowan


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Bruce Beardall]

I certainly don't want to be pushing a political agenda (especially where
it's not wanted) and Alan makes a perfectly reasonable point but I can't
help but consider the following: For a group of Linux supporters [albeit, a
specific distribution], it seems a bit odd that there isn't more discussion
of this kind of subject. I'm neither making accusations nor offering
challenges. Just a thought.

Many thanks for your patience.

Regards

Bruce


On 12 April 2010 14:15, Tommy Pyatt  wrote:

> Personally, I am quite interested in discussions of this type as laws
> affecting copyright have significant implications in the FOSS community, and
> I assume that there are many others on the list that are interested also. I
> understand your point Alan, but I don't see the value in discouraging this
> type of discussion here as it may be of interest to the list members.
>
> Tommy Pyatt
> Ubuntu user
>
>
> On 12 April 2010 13:14, Alan Lord (News)  wrote:
>
>> On 12/04/10 13:10, pa...@fossbox.org.uk wrote:
>> > Yes, I know - I shouldn't rant either cos I'm an NGO and not supposed to
>> > be political ;)
>>
>> I'm not sure what the "rules" are for this mailing list but it seems to
>> me this thread has left the discussion of the deb and is becoming a
>> general political rant.
>>
>> Presumably there are other lists where stuff not really to do with
>> Ubuntu in the UK should be taken?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Alan
>>
>> --
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>> http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Tommy Pyatt]

Personally, I am quite interested in discussions of this type as laws
affecting copyright have significant implications in the FOSS community, and
I assume that there are many others on the list that are interested also. I
understand your point Alan, but I don't see the value in discouraging this
type of discussion here as it may be of interest to the list members.

Tommy Pyatt
Ubuntu user

On 12 April 2010 13:14, Alan Lord (News)  wrote:

> On 12/04/10 13:10, pa...@fossbox.org.uk wrote:
> > Yes, I know - I shouldn't rant either cos I'm an NGO and not supposed to
> > be political ;)
>
> I'm not sure what the "rules" are for this mailing list but it seems to
> me this thread has left the discussion of the deb and is becoming a
> general political rant.
>
> Presumably there are other lists where stuff not really to do with
> Ubuntu in the UK should be taken?
>
> Cheers
>
> Alan
>
> --
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> http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Alan Lord (News)]

On 12/04/10 13:10, pa...@fossbox.org.uk wrote:
> Yes, I know - I shouldn't rant either cos I'm an NGO and not supposed to
> be political ;)

I'm not sure what the "rules" are for this mailing list but it seems to 
me this thread has left the discussion of the deb and is becoming a 
general political rant.

Presumably there are other lists where stuff not really to do with 
Ubuntu in the UK should be taken?

Cheers

Alan

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[pa...@fossbox.org.uk]

Yes, I know - I shouldn't rant either cos I'm an NGO and not supposed to
be political ;)

Maybe the answer for an org like Canonical (who'd be noticed!) is to be
extremely careful picking issues and to ensure that the issue is the
legitimacy of Ubuntu/FOSS - it could be useful to focus on the software
industry attempting to classify FOSS as a breach of proper maintenance
of copyright law (as discussed here recently). That's factually
erroneous, a blatant attempt to disadvantage a legitimate competitor,
and thus an equally legit ('non-political') target? At the very least, I
think it'd be useful if it's clear that there isn't agreement across the
board within the software industry on this point. Canonical isn't the
only software company with an interest in OS either?

I think it's fine for Canonical to be lobbying for the interests of FOSS
- transparently - and thus set a responsible example? I think there
could well be some associated corporate responsibility issues in there
which could positively enhance Canonical's profile? Taking a stand for
openness both in terms of software licensing but also in trying to
ensure a level playing field within the software industry would be
totally appropriate?

Paula




/ www.fossbox.org.uk
pa...@fossbox.org.uk
Tel: 020 7481 8479
Skype: bastubis
/



Bruce Beardall wrote:
> I've got it, too. I think it's difficult and uncertain territory for
> something like Canonical to get involved in and free software supporters run
> the risk of being painted even more like anarchists by raising our voices
> but I think not doing so risks a number of the freedoms we rely on in being
> able to push the FLOSS agenda. The question is: How do we avoid advocacy
> fatigue?
>
> Cheers
>
> Bruce
>
>
> On 12 April 2010 12:28, pa...@fossbox.org.uk  wrote:
>
>   
>> Just got a mail from 38 Degrees (don't know who else got one). They're
>> embarking on a campaign against lobbying which is the most sensible
>> course of action I can think of for those who want to continue to take
>> action about this:
>> http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/speakout/PPCDEBlobbying
>>
>> This isn't just about the DEB, it's about democratic process (such as it
>> is) being replaced by corporate 'lettres de cachet'.
>>
>> Paula
>> --
>>
>> /www.fossbox.org.uk
>> pa...@fossbox.org.uk
>> Tel: 020 7481 8479
>> Skype: bastubis
>> /
>>
>>
>> --
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>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>>
>> 
>
>   

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[Bruce Beardall]

I've got it, too. I think it's difficult and uncertain territory for
something like Canonical to get involved in and free software supporters run
the risk of being painted even more like anarchists by raising our voices
but I think not doing so risks a number of the freedoms we rely on in being
able to push the FLOSS agenda. The question is: How do we avoid advocacy
fatigue?

Cheers

Bruce


On 12 April 2010 12:28, pa...@fossbox.org.uk  wrote:

> Just got a mail from 38 Degrees (don't know who else got one). They're
> embarking on a campaign against lobbying which is the most sensible
> course of action I can think of for those who want to continue to take
> action about this:
> http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/speakout/PPCDEBlobbying
>
> This isn't just about the DEB, it's about democratic process (such as it
> is) being replaced by corporate 'lettres de cachet'.
>
> Paula
> --
>
> /www.fossbox.org.uk
> pa...@fossbox.org.uk
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[ubuntu-uk] DEB again

[pa...@fossbox.org.uk]

Just got a mail from 38 Degrees (don't know who else got one). They're
embarking on a campaign against lobbying which is the most sensible
course of action I can think of for those who want to continue to take
action about this:
http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/speakout/PPCDEBlobbying

This isn't just about the DEB, it's about democratic process (such as it
is) being replaced by corporate 'lettres de cachet'.

Paula
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