Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
I've got it, too. I think it's difficult and uncertain territory for something like Canonical to get involved in and free software supporters run the risk of being painted even more like anarchists by raising our voices but I think not doing so risks a number of the freedoms we rely on in being able to push the FLOSS agenda. The question is: How do we avoid advocacy fatigue? Cheers Bruce On 12 April 2010 12:28, pa...@fossbox.org.uk pa...@fossbox.org.uk wrote: Just got a mail from 38 Degrees (don't know who else got one). They're embarking on a campaign against lobbying which is the most sensible course of action I can think of for those who want to continue to take action about this: http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/speakout/PPCDEBlobbying This isn't just about the DEB, it's about democratic process (such as it is) being replaced by corporate 'lettres de cachet'. Paula -- /www.fossbox.org.uk pa...@fossbox.org.uk Tel: 020 7481 8479 Skype: bastubis / -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
Yes, I know - I shouldn't rant either cos I'm an NGO and not supposed to
be political ;)
Maybe the answer for an org like Canonical (who'd be noticed!) is to be
extremely careful picking issues and to ensure that the issue is the
legitimacy of Ubuntu/FOSS - it could be useful to focus on the software
industry attempting to classify FOSS as a breach of proper maintenance
of copyright law (as discussed here recently). That's factually
erroneous, a blatant attempt to disadvantage a legitimate competitor,
and thus an equally legit ('non-political') target? At the very least, I
think it'd be useful if it's clear that there isn't agreement across the
board within the software industry on this point. Canonical isn't the
only software company with an interest in OS either?
I think it's fine for Canonical to be lobbying for the interests of FOSS
- transparently - and thus set a responsible example? I think there
could well be some associated corporate responsibility issues in there
which could positively enhance Canonical's profile? Taking a stand for
openness both in terms of software licensing but also in trying to
ensure a level playing field within the software industry would be
totally appropriate?
Paula
/ www.fossbox.org.uk
pa...@fossbox.org.uk
Tel: 020 7481 8479
Skype: bastubis
/
Bruce Beardall wrote:
I've got it, too. I think it's difficult and uncertain territory for
something like Canonical to get involved in and free software supporters run
the risk of being painted even more like anarchists by raising our voices
but I think not doing so risks a number of the freedoms we rely on in being
able to push the FLOSS agenda. The question is: How do we avoid advocacy
fatigue?
Cheers
Bruce
On 12 April 2010 12:28, pa...@fossbox.org.uk pa...@fossbox.org.uk wrote:
Just got a mail from 38 Degrees (don't know who else got one). They're
embarking on a campaign against lobbying which is the most sensible
course of action I can think of for those who want to continue to take
action about this:
http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/speakout/PPCDEBlobbying
This isn't just about the DEB, it's about democratic process (such as it
is) being replaced by corporate 'lettres de cachet'.
Paula
--
/www.fossbox.org.uk
pa...@fossbox.org.uk
Tel: 020 7481 8479
Skype: bastubis
/
--
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
--
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
On 12/04/10 13:10, pa...@fossbox.org.uk wrote: Yes, I know - I shouldn't rant either cos I'm an NGO and not supposed to be political ;) I'm not sure what the rules are for this mailing list but it seems to me this thread has left the discussion of the deb and is becoming a general political rant. Presumably there are other lists where stuff not really to do with Ubuntu in the UK should be taken? Cheers Alan -- The Open Learning Centre http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
Personally, I am quite interested in discussions of this type as laws affecting copyright have significant implications in the FOSS community, and I assume that there are many others on the list that are interested also. I understand your point Alan, but I don't see the value in discouraging this type of discussion here as it may be of interest to the list members. Tommy Pyatt Ubuntu user On 12 April 2010 13:14, Alan Lord (News) alansli...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/04/10 13:10, pa...@fossbox.org.uk wrote: Yes, I know - I shouldn't rant either cos I'm an NGO and not supposed to be political ;) I'm not sure what the rules are for this mailing list but it seems to me this thread has left the discussion of the deb and is becoming a general political rant. Presumably there are other lists where stuff not really to do with Ubuntu in the UK should be taken? Cheers Alan -- The Open Learning Centre http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
I certainly don't want to be pushing a political agenda (especially where it's not wanted) and Alan makes a perfectly reasonable point but I can't help but consider the following: For a group of Linux supporters [albeit, a specific distribution], it seems a bit odd that there isn't more discussion of this kind of subject. I'm neither making accusations nor offering challenges. Just a thought. Many thanks for your patience. Regards Bruce On 12 April 2010 14:15, Tommy Pyatt tommy.py...@googlemail.com wrote: Personally, I am quite interested in discussions of this type as laws affecting copyright have significant implications in the FOSS community, and I assume that there are many others on the list that are interested also. I understand your point Alan, but I don't see the value in discouraging this type of discussion here as it may be of interest to the list members. Tommy Pyatt Ubuntu user On 12 April 2010 13:14, Alan Lord (News) alansli...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/04/10 13:10, pa...@fossbox.org.uk wrote: Yes, I know - I shouldn't rant either cos I'm an NGO and not supposed to be political ;) I'm not sure what the rules are for this mailing list but it seems to me this thread has left the discussion of the deb and is becoming a general political rant. Presumably there are other lists where stuff not really to do with Ubuntu in the UK should be taken? Cheers Alan -- The Open Learning Centre http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 14:15 +0100, Alan Lord (News) alansli...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not sure what the rules are for this mailing list but it seems to me this thread has left the discussion of the deb and is becoming a general political rant. Presumably there are other lists where stuff not really to do with Ubuntu in the UK should be taken? Cheers, Alan Alan, I'm in favour of letting Paula have a good rant. No one who has done work for the Worshipful Company of Information Technologists deserves to be ignored. I didn't even know there was such a body. Rowan -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
On 12/04/10 13:14, Alan Lord (News) wrote: On 12/04/10 13:10, pa...@fossbox.org.uk wrote: Yes, I know - I shouldn't rant either cos I'm an NGO and not supposed to be political ;) I'm not sure what the rules are for this mailing list but it seems to me this thread has left the discussion of the deb and is becoming a general political rant. Hello, Alan. #1 - The first rule of ubuntu-uk is you do not talk about ubuntu-uk. #2 - The second rule of ubuntu-uk is, you DO NOT talk about ubuntu-uk. #3 - If someone says Windows, goes limp, taps out, reboot the server. #4 - Two OS's to a server. #5 - One OS at a time. #6 - No Mac's, no shoe-box servers. #7 - Installs will go on as long as they have to. #8 - If this is your first night at ubuntu-uk, you have to install. Presumably there are other lists where stuff not really to do with Ubuntu in the UK should be taken? Maybe... Bye, Tony. -- Dr. A.J.Travis, University of Aberdeen, Rowett Institute of Nutrition and Health, Greenburn Road, Bucksburn, Aberdeen AB21 9SB, Scotland, UK tel +44(0)1224 712751, fax +44(0)1224 716687, http://www.rowett.ac.uk mailto:a.tra...@abdn.ac.uk, http://bioinformatics.rri.sari.ac.uk/~ajt -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit. I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged. John -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
I think Alan's getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop here. In all fairness (and I'm not trying to put words in his mouth) I think he was simply trying to advise that discussion lists need to stay within certain parameters in order to stop going off topic and thus risk descending into slanging matches. Something that's been known to happen on other, less distinguished lists. So, Alan did nothing wrong but perhaps it is something that needs to be discussed further? For a decision to be made either way? B On 12 April 2010 15:13, John Matthews jake...@sky.com wrote: I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit. I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged. John -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
On 12/04/10 15:13, John Matthews wrote: I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit. I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged. Blimey - It wasn't intended to be such a negative response. That is why I phrased my message the way I did. I have heard and read a great deal about the debill over the past few months, have written to my MP on several occasions and am a politically interested individual with my own opinions. I didn't however, think that the Ubuntu UK mailing list was the most appropriate forum for discussing more general politics - which is what this thread had morphed into. Clearly I was wrong. ;-) Al -- The Open Learning Centre http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
Apologies Alan, I did not mean any hostility in my response to your email, which was a fair and reasonable comment. I just wanted to point out that I have no problems with Paula's original email, as I'm sure I'm not the only one. Since I see you are using gmail, assuming that you are accessing your mail through the standard interface, there is a function to 'Mute' conversations if you prefer to be excluded from responses to the thread. I use the function frequently with mailing lists. You may already know about it, just pointing it out. Regards, Tommy (PS - '#8 - If this is your first night at ubuntu-uk, you have to install.' i like that one, made me chuckle.) On 12 April 2010 15:49, Alan Lord (News) alansli...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/04/10 15:13, John Matthews wrote: I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit. I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged. Blimey - It wasn't intended to be such a negative response. That is why I phrased my message the way I did. I have heard and read a great deal about the debill over the past few months, have written to my MP on several occasions and am a politically interested individual with my own opinions. I didn't however, think that the Ubuntu UK mailing list was the most appropriate forum for discussing more general politics - which is what this thread had morphed into. Clearly I was wrong. ;-) Al -- The Open Learning Centre http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
I do see Alan's point - and I've said most of what I felt needed to be said now :) Paula / www.fossbox.org.uk pa...@fossbox.org.uk Tel: 020 7481 8479 Skype: bastubis / Alan Lord (News) wrote: On 12/04/10 15:13, John Matthews wrote: I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit. I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged. Blimey - It wasn't intended to be such a negative response. That is why I phrased my message the way I did. I have heard and read a great deal about the debill over the past few months, have written to my MP on several occasions and am a politically interested individual with my own opinions. I didn't however, think that the Ubuntu UK mailing list was the most appropriate forum for discussing more general politics - which is what this thread had morphed into. Clearly I was wrong. ;-) Al -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
On 12/04/10 16:06, Tommy Pyatt wrote: Apologies Alan, I did not mean any hostility in my response to your email, which was a fair and reasonable comment. I just wanted to point out that I have no problems with Paula's original email, as I'm sure I'm not the only one. No need to apologise. Since I see you are using gmail, assuming that you are accessing your mail through the standard interface, there is a function to 'Mute' conversations if you prefer to be excluded from responses to the thread. I use the function frequently with mailing lists. You may already know about it, just pointing it out. Just FYI. I do have a gmail account I use solely for mailing lists but I access almost all of the many that I subscribe to via a newsreader (in this instance Thunderbird) and disable all forwarding of the mail in mailman. So I do not get *any* messages in my gmail account at all :-) FYI again, these lists, and many thousands of others, are available on news.gmane.org. Al Regards, Tommy (PS - '#8 - If this is your first night at ubuntu-uk, you have to install.' i like that one, made me chuckle.) On 12 April 2010 15:49, Alan Lord (News) alansli...@gmail.com mailto:alansli...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/04/10 15:13, John Matthews wrote: I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit. I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged. Blimey - It wasn't intended to be such a negative response. That is why I phrased my message the way I did. I have heard and read a great deal about the debill over the past few months, have written to my MP on several occasions and am a politically interested individual with my own opinions. I didn't however, think that the Ubuntu UK mailing list was the most appropriate forum for discussing more general politics - which is what this thread had morphed into. Clearly I was wrong. ;-) Al -- The Open Learning Centre http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com mailto:ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- The Open Learning Centre http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
I didnt mean any hostilities either, it was a genuine question. Its did seem strange to me that something like this bill is not discussed on a newsgroup like this. Nothing has been brought forward about it at all. I am not really sure why its turned into a flame. Sad really, John,. On 12/04/10 16:06, Tommy Pyatt wrote: Apologies Alan, I did not mean any hostility in my response to your email, which was a fair and reasonable comment. I just wanted to point out that I have no problems with Paula's original email, as I'm sure I'm not the only one. Since I see you are using gmail, assuming that you are accessing your mail through the standard interface, there is a function to 'Mute' conversations if you prefer to be excluded from responses to the thread. I use the function frequently with mailing lists. You may already know about it, just pointing it out. Regards, Tommy (PS - '#8 - If this is your first night at ubuntu-uk, you have to install.' i like that one, made me chuckle.) On 12 April 2010 15:49, Alan Lord (News) alansli...@gmail.com mailto:alansli...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/04/10 15:13, John Matthews wrote: I have to admit, I wondered why such a subject should be so taboo. It affects us a lot more than we really would like to admit. I would genuinely like to know why it should have such a negative response from somebody like Alan, and why it is discouraged. Blimey - It wasn't intended to be such a negative response. That is why I phrased my message the way I did. I have heard and read a great deal about the debill over the past few months, have written to my MP on several occasions and am a politically interested individual with my own opinions. I didn't however, think that the Ubuntu UK mailing list was the most appropriate forum for discussing more general politics - which is what this thread had morphed into. Clearly I was wrong. ;-) Al -- The Open Learning Centre http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com mailto:ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- Ubuntu User #30817 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Bruce Beardall wrote: I certainly don't want to be pushing a political agenda (especially where it's not wanted) and Alan makes a perfectly reasonable point but I can't help but consider the following: For a group of Linux supporters [albeit, a specific distribution], it seems a bit odd that there isn't more discussion of this kind of subject. I'm neither making accusations nor offering challenges. Just a thought. Many thanks for your patience. Regards Bruce I agree here, while this may be considered not ubuntu related, perhaps it is, as these laws affect free software, If companies with huge budgets can lobby and fund parties to get their views across and heard, it leaves those groups with less money on a less level playing field. if we discuss these issues elsewhere they may get read by a minortiy of people, if they get discussed here, then more people will read them, if they are to be taken off list, perhaps someone could be a liason and mention such a discussion and invite people from other lists to the discussion. Paul -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkvDPHQACgkQaggq1k2FJq2plQCfaJ6imnCqOajAndtshpS5di5x N/0An01HsMqDIjowl+kcfSW1uKbAiAjI =2312 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
For my penneth worth, I saw no flame in this discussion. Everyone conducting themselves impeccably. :) JT On 12 April 2010 16:30, Paul Sutton zl...@zleap.net wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Bruce Beardall wrote: I certainly don't want to be pushing a political agenda (especially where it's not wanted) and Alan makes a perfectly reasonable point but I can't help but consider the following: For a group of Linux supporters [albeit, a specific distribution], it seems a bit odd that there isn't more discussion of this kind of subject. I'm neither making accusations nor offering challenges. Just a thought. Many thanks for your patience. Regards Bruce I agree here, while this may be considered not ubuntu related, perhaps it is, as these laws affect free software, If companies with huge budgets can lobby and fund parties to get their views across and heard, it leaves those groups with less money on a less level playing field. if we discuss these issues elsewhere they may get read by a minortiy of people, if they get discussed here, then more people will read them, if they are to be taken off list, perhaps someone could be a liason and mention such a discussion and invite people from other lists to the discussion. Paul -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkvDPHQACgkQaggq1k2FJq2plQCfaJ6imnCqOajAndtshpS5di5x N/0An01HsMqDIjowl+kcfSW1uKbAiAjI =2312 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] DEB again
On 12/04/10 16:30, Paul Sutton wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Bruce Beardall wrote: I certainly don't want to be pushing a political agenda (especially where it's not wanted) and Alan makes a perfectly reasonable point but I can't help but consider the following: For a group of Linux supporters [albeit, a specific distribution], it seems a bit odd that there isn't more discussion of this kind of subject. I'm neither making accusations nor offering challenges. Just a thought. Many thanks for your patience. Regards Bruce I agree here, while this may be considered not ubuntu related, perhaps it is, as these laws affect free software, If companies with huge budgets can lobby and fund parties to get their views across and heard, it leaves those groups with less money on a less level playing field. if we discuss these issues elsewhere they may get read by a minortiy of people, if they get discussed here, then more people will read them, if they are to be taken off list, perhaps someone could be a liason and mention such a discussion and invite people from other lists to the discussion. Paul -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkvDPHQACgkQaggq1k2FJq2plQCfaJ6imnCqOajAndtshpS5di5x N/0An01HsMqDIjowl+kcfSW1uKbAiAjI =2312 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Paul I think it's a case that if this conversation happened on IRC you'd be asked to take it elsewhere to ##politics not in an Ubuntu channel, where we try and avoid topics which tend to end up in some sort of controversy such as politics religion etc. as we're abide by the code of conduct. Laura -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/czajkowski http://www.lczajkowski.com Skype: lauraczajkowski -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
