Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Alan Bell]

On 19/05/11 20:42, Barry Titterton wrote:

http://www.raceonline2012.org


The main site says that MS are offering a machine through
www.getonlineathome.org that has 1Gb for £95. It makes the Remploy offer
look a bit poor in comparison.

Barry


yeah, there are several providers, there could be more. That £95 goes up 
to £165 for people not on specific benefits. I wouldn't focus too much 
on the price, but would like to work with remploy to get more ram in 
their Ubuntu machines than they offer in their XP machines.


Alan.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Barry Titterton]

> http://www.raceonline2012.org
> 

The main site says that MS are offering a machine through
www.getonlineathome.org that has 1Gb for £95. It makes the Remploy offer
look a bit poor in comparison.

Barry


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker! timeline?

[alan c]

On 19/05/11 10:21, Avi Greenbury wrote:

Alan Bell wrote:

 Just call it Ubuntu, problem solved.


Ah, that was supposed to be the bulk of my point, but I apparently
completely forgot to mention it...

I should really put something in place that stops me sending out emails
in the middle of the night.


LOL
You've spoiled it now! It was shaping up to be a great debate, ending 
with 'Ubuntu'!

:-)

I, too, strongly favour declaring I use 'Ubuntu'. In fact when 
introducing an Ubuntu discussion to a small PC shop in farthest outer 
Lincolnshire, he soon said.

'Oh! Linux us only for techies!'

My response without a blink, was
'I am *not* talking about Linux, I am using UBUNTU!'
To his credit there was a slight pause and I could see the new 
thoughts..


The Ubuntu 'brand' is one of the the best things that has emerged, an 
dUbuntu is defined as an 'Operating System', which makes it very easy 
to lose the 'L' word which the opposition use with such surreptitious 
mischief.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker! timeline?

[Avi Greenbury]

Alan Bell wrote:

Just call it Ubuntu, problem solved.


Ah, that was supposed to be the bulk of my point, but I apparently 
completely forgot to mention it...


I should really put something in place that stops me sending out emails 
in the middle of the night.


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Avi

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Yorvyk]

On Wed, 18 May 2011 18:00:36 +0100
Alan Bell  wrote:

> I would rather they just stuck a respectable amount of ram in them and 
> put Ubuntu on them, it works just fine on low spec machines. I don't 
> really see the point in having an OS that "works" in low memory 
> conditions when as soon as you open Firefox and LibreOffice it is going 
> to be painful anyway.
> 
> Alan.
> 
> On 18/05/11 14:48, Phill Whiteside wrote:
> > Hi Alan,
> >
> > for such low spec machines it *may* be worth trying the Lubuntu suite 
> > on them. Lubuntu gets full adoption at 11.10 by Canonical, the 11.04 
> > is happily running now. For really old kit (pre i686) lubuntu are 
> > going to continue to backport to the 10.04 stable beta the lxde and 
> > pcmanfm etc. for a while yet. (I think we were discussing 5 years).
> >
It would be nice if they did stick a respectable amount of RAM in them but, if 
they haven't got it they can't.
Lubuntu works very well on the low spec machine, I've been running a similar 
set up for a while now, and it looks similar to XP.

-- 
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker! timeline?

[Yorvyk]

On Thu, 19 May 2011 06:36:34 +0100
Alan Bell  wrote:

> Just call it Ubuntu, problem solved.
> 
Couldn't agree more.
Ask a lot of windows users waht browser they use and the answer will be Vista 
or Windows 7.  If you tell people they have Linux on their phone they will deny 
it and tell you it's Android.  People just want to connect to face book, ebay, 
whatever.  Don't get all 'religious' on them.

-- 
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http://lubuntu.net 

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Alan Bell]

On 19/05/11 08:42, Paul Sutton wrote:


so i sign up then join the ubuntu team, ?

paul


don't think it works like that quite.
I filled out the partner form, which should mean that Ubuntu-UK turns up 
on this page http://raceonline2012.org/partners?page=1&title=U in a few 
days.
as a team we can use some of their logos and comms apparently (I haven't 
looked at it yet)

http://raceonline2012.org/go-on
http://raceonline2012.org/comms

You can sign up as a "digital champion" which is the thing you can sign 
up to as an individual, http://www.helppassiton.co.uk/ I don't think you 
can associate yourself with a team, but I could be wrong.
They have some information for digital champions here 
http://helppassiton.co.uk/index/digital-champion-welcome-pack it would 
be great if people could review that and discuss concerns if you see it 
advising lock in to proprietary software etc. (I spy a .doc file) or if 
you think we could contribute more resources into that area.


Alan.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Paul Sutton]

On 18/05/11 23:48, Alan Bell wrote:

On 18/05/11 21:19, Paul Sutton wrote:

Ok if people have a login to launchpad they can edit the loco team page
which thus far has had me doing this,


huh? where?


do we sign up individually or sign up as the south west loco team and
have the loco team website as a holding place for people who can help

by all means sign up as digital champions individually, but I will 
fill in the form for the partner organisation thing on behalf of the 
Ubuntu UK LoCo team. When I find out what is involved and how we can 
help I guess we will use resources like the wiki, or loco directory to 
manage things, if such things require organisation.


I think what I want to get out of it is to ensure that participating 
organisations that are supplying PCs know they have the option to put 
Ubuntu on them, and that they have the marketing and technical 
assistance to get the messages accurate and compelling. I also want 
the recipients of the PCs with Ubuntu on to have an easy way to find 
their way into the community.


Alan Bell
Ubuntu UK LoCo Team Lead



so i sign up then join the ubuntu team, ?

paul

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17th September 2011 - Software freedom day


sp


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker! timeline?

[Alan Bell]

Just call it Ubuntu, problem solved.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker! timeline?

[Avi]

alan c wrote:
> I know that Linux is often used to denote the operating system in 
> addition to being the name of the kernel. I regard Linux as being the 
> kernel, and Stallman started GNU, what he stated was to be a free OS, 
> in 1983.

Well, it's probably possible to argue heritage all the way back, but I
was only talking about Linux, and I did make sure I said it didn't
matter - I just found the age of the OS a peculiar thing to use as a
selling point...

> As an aside, I believe that there is a marketing disadvantage in 
> calling the operating system only 'Linux', and not 'GNU/Linux'. A
> word with two meanings Linux the kernel, and Linux the OS too, looses 
> marketing focus and is easy prey to opposition spin.
> 
> Witness 'Linux is only for geeks, not normal people' or similar,
> which is rolled off the tongue at me when I talk to various computer
> shops. Geekdom is true if I talk about the kernel of course, but *I*
> only ever use and install and lay hands on 'Ubuntu', the operating
> system. GNU/Linux is a better descriptor.

Really? I hardly think adding a forward slash and an initialism (or
acronym if you want to sound *really* inhuman) is likely to make it
seem any less geeky. Especially when people ask what it means...

I've long felt that the ideal descriptor generally is either 'Linux' or
the name of the distro itself. GNU does provide some of the tools,
sure, but so did/do BSD and IBM and Sun and MIT and Xerox and
the distros themselves and millions of other contributors. [0]

'Linux' does a good job as a term of being succinct, low on syllables
and carrying enough meaning to describe a large collection of OSs
(those that run the Linux kernel). I don't think adding 'GNU' does
anything to decrease ambiguity or increase understanding - *all*
Linuxes use GNU tools, so the set of things described accurately to
a non-pedant as 'Linux' matches the set described to same by 'GNU/Linux'
pretty accurately.
Using "GNU/Linux" to mean the Linux kernel with GNU utilities and some
other stuff makes as much sense as calling it "BSD/Linux" because of
the BSD bits (ignoring the fact that BSD also describes a kernel, and a
system using that kernel and a lot of GNU components...), or MIT/Linux
because it's running X11.


The problem with trying to give the impression that Linux (or
GNU/Linux) is Windows-user-friendly (because, generally, that's what we
mean by 'user-friendly' here) is that the majority of distros aren't -
it makes sense in that situation to use the name of a distro that is.

-- 
Avi
[0] The argument over which term is *correct* is an unending one - I'm only
arguing with you over what's better for a non-geeky audience :) 

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker! timeline?

[alan c]

On 18/05/11 22:46, Avi wrote:

Martin Houston wrote:

 It would have been nice to have little snippets like Linux's 20 year
 history and the fact it runs on>  95% of all super computers. The page
 is very biased to say the least.


Not that either of those matter since we're talking about today and
cheap computers, but Windows predates Linux by about six years.


I know that Linux is often used to denote the operating system in 
addition to being the name of the kernel. I regard Linux as being the 
kernel, and Stallman started GNU, what he stated was to be a free OS, 
in 1983. If one regards the operating system to be 'GNU/Linux' and if 
one gives Linux its actual place in history, I believe the timeline is 
something like this:

===
1970-1980 Freedom culture 'Hackers at MIT computer labs'

1980: Source code refused to Stallman - Xerox 9700. Sets Stallman on a 
free software journey.


1981: Microsoft buys 86-DOS

1982: MS-DOS Version 1.0 released

1983: Stallman announces GNU project

1983: Microsoft Windows announced  sells for $100.00

1985: Stallman creates 'Free Software Foundation'

1991: Linux 0.01 -  Linus Torvalds: Linux 'kernel'
===

Marketing aside:
As an aside, I believe that there is a marketing disadvantage in 
calling the operating system only 'Linux', and not 'GNU/Linux'. A word 
with two meanings Linux the kernel, and Linux the OS too, looses 
marketing focus and is easy prey to opposition spin.


Witness 'Linux is only for geeks, not normal people' or similar, which 
is rolled off the tongue at me when I talk to various computer shops. 
Geekdom is true if I talk about the kernel of course, but *I* only 
ever use and install and lay hands on 'Ubuntu', the operating system. 
GNU/Linux is a better descriptor.


I find the 'L' word is generally a strongly negative word because it 
has been adopted by the opposition as a justified pointer to geek 
niche use.

--
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Ubuntu user

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Alan Bell]

On 18/05/11 21:19, Paul Sutton wrote:

Ok if people have a login to launchpad they can edit the loco team page
which thus far has had me doing this,


huh? where?


do we sign up individually or sign up as the south west loco team and
have the loco team website as a holding place for people who can help

by all means sign up as digital champions individually, but I will fill 
in the form for the partner organisation thing on behalf of the Ubuntu 
UK LoCo team. When I find out what is involved and how we can help I 
guess we will use resources like the wiki, or loco directory to manage 
things, if such things require organisation.


I think what I want to get out of it is to ensure that participating 
organisations that are supplying PCs know they have the option to put 
Ubuntu on them, and that they have the marketing and technical 
assistance to get the messages accurate and compelling. I also want the 
recipients of the PCs with Ubuntu on to have an easy way to find their 
way into the community.


Alan Bell
Ubuntu UK LoCo Team Lead

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Martin Houston]

It was actually because I approved of the sheer common sense of giving 
people with no previous exposure to computers Linux instead of Windows 
that I signed up to be  Race Online 2012 partner in the first place. 
That is why the sudden realisation that Microsoft was involved after all 
came as such a nasty shock.


May I suggest that we make use of the Race Online infrastructure by 
offering our services as help teaching people how to get started with 
their 'on a shoestring' Linux systems, ether the official Remploy ones 
or Car boot sale/donations from friends cobbled together affairs.


I was under the impression that the OS for these low cost PCs  would be 
Linux based but customised in some exotic way to make it super easy for 
beginners (lots of locally cached content of the sort that beginners 
would want to know for example). However now we find its just good ole 
Ubuntu 10.10 it levels the playing field to let everyone stick Linux on 
some old computers under the name of Race Online.


Everyone who wants to help sign up as a digital champion or a partner 
organisation.

http://www.raceonline2012.org 

Hopefully the way it works is that other partner organisations in your 
locality (a council of charity for example) will have the resources like 
somewhere to meet, but not the Linux expertise. Together we can help 
people to get to grips properly with the Internet, not just having it as 
a channel to sell them stuff.


Can I please ask you to copy me in if you are signing up to help getting 
new beginners onto Linux. If we get a big response this could be 
newsworthy in its own right - which in turn leads to less 'fear of the 
unknown' resistance as we go forward.


I am going to be at http://www.ukuug.org/events/opentech2011/ on this 
Saturday if anyone wants to say hi.


Would Canonical not be interested in taking a higher profile in this?
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Avi]

Martin Houston wrote:

It would have been nice to have little snippets like Linux's 20 year
history and the fact it runs on > 95% of all super computers. The page
is very biased to say the least.


Not that either of those matter since we're talking about today and 
cheap computers, but Windows predates Linux by about six years.



It is regrettable that the computers are such low spec, but if you are
on benefits even another £50 spent on improving this would seem like a lot.

Another thing we could help with as a community is finding ways of
making there low spec computers tolerable. It seems the place they have
been squeezed the most is memory.


I'm not convinced that this is really where the effort needs to be put 
in. Now-intolerably-slow computers are quite tolerable if you've not 
used anything more modern. To some people, a 20 second wait for their 
browser to open is *normal*.
The implication of that site is that more important is to make computing 
*easier* than faster - I suspect that keeping the process simpler than 
asking users to lug their PC round to a pub somewhere for a complete 
stranger to install some ram would just further the idea of there being 
dark arts at play. Surely getting it, plugging it in and going is more 
optimal?



We need to give these people confidence that they can 'pimp their ride'
like this.


Again, I might be missing the point here completely, but this exercise 
looks to be much more about teaching people to *use* their 'ride' than 
pimp it.



I want people to see this as an opportunity to get a vibrant local Linux
SIG going in your own area as a service to the community.


That is something I agree with you on, though :)


Service can take many forms, helping more people out of the darkness of
ignorance is one thing.


But this isn't.
It is completely not a truism that Linux is ideal for everybody. For 
some people, Windows or OSX (or whatever) is much better, and explaining 
that they're only using Windows because they're stupid isn't likely to 
encourage them to be part of the community.



I honestly think that one of the biggest downsides of Linux at the 
minute is the zealots that reckon everyone should be running it 
(especially when they do so while extolling 'choice'). It does, though, 
seem to be a phase that all Linux users go through at some point.



These people will be done no favours if they go from no computer
knowlege to trying to cope with XP, especially on such a low spec
machine!


Yes they will. They will (or can) find out how email and instant 
messaging and the web works. They can get started with programming if 
they like. They can run an office suite if they like.
There's precious little that can be done on Linux but not Windows (and 
an unfortunate amount in the opposite direction).


The only thing they wont learn by using Win XP is a particularly common 
UI, but they wont get that with much other than OSX or Windows 7.


There's nothing fundamentally non-computer about Windows XP. It's just 
an old OS, one for which expertise and support is _everywhere_.


--
Avi

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Paul Sutton]

On 18/05/11 21:23, Alan Pope wrote:
> On 18 May 2011 21:19, Paul Sutton  wrote:
>> do we sign up individually or sign up as the south west loco team and
>> have the loco team website as a holding place for people who can help
>>
> 
> I'd wait for guidance from Alan Bell as he's the point of contact for
> the LoCo. Probably best to go through him since he's already made
> contact, rather than flood them with lots of requests.
> 
> Al.
> 
Ok no problem

I am happy to offer help / support on ubuntu perhaps if we can use this
promote lug meetings so people can come along and ask for help at least
if people can talk to one person its a good thing, if that person can
say i can't help there, just a second while i go get someone who can it
looks far far better.

Paul

-- 

Paul Sutton Cert SLPS (Open)
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Open Mic nights - Wednesday 8pm to 11pm (14+) Free entry
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Paul Sutton]

On 18/05/11 21:46, Martin Houston wrote:
> I seem to have stirred up quite a bit of debate with this.
> 
> Michael Devenish makes a good suggestion that the Race Online volunteers
> need to get a bit of education with Ubuntu. It is an achievement to get
> it on the menu as an option but it is clear that the Microsoft spin
> doctors have had a hand in the wording of the Remploy site. The Windows
> option gets more coverage and glowing terms like 'safe and familiar'. It
> gets 50% more coverage in fact!
> 
> It would have been nice to have little snippets like Linux's 20 year
> history and the fact it runs on > 95% of all super computers. The page
> is very biased to say the least.
> 
> It is regrettable that the computers are such low spec, but if you are
> on benefits even another £50 spent on improving this would seem like a lot.
> 
> Another thing we could help with as a community is finding ways of
> making there low spec computers tolerable. It seems the place they have
> been squeezed the most is memory.
> 
> Surely collectively the 'geek' community must have quite a bit of
> smaller capacity and old tech memory lying about. But could let the
> recipients of these systems get to 512 meg or more. Its just a matter of
> matching up memory type with who needs it. This is something that local
> Linux user groups need to do. Each group could have a 'charity box' of
> donated bits that could just be the thing to make some otherwise piece
> of junk live again.
> 
> Using a computer need not be expensive. Just time consuming (but
> interesting).
> 
> 
> If the right memory cannot be found at the right (i.e. very low or free)
> price then at a pinch adding a second HD just for swap makes even a low
> memory system far more tolerable, or taking things on the head and
> running the OS from a £5 USB stick, just using the HD for swap. The
> biggest cost of swap is the fact that the disk heads have been forced
> away from what they were up to at the time. Take that out of the
> equation and a swapping system could be called sedate but not as easily
> catatonic. All for an old small capacity HD.
> 
> We need to give these people confidence that they can 'pimp their ride'
> like this.
> 
> I want people to see this as an opportunity to get a vibrant local Linux
> SIG going in your own area as a service to the community.
> 
> Service can take many forms, helping more people out of the darkness of
> ignorance is one thing.
> 
> These people will be done no favours if they go from no computer
> knowlege to trying to cope with XP, especially on such a low spec
> machine! And later perhaps some of those same people introduced to the
> way the global community of the Internet really is become useful
> contributors to cool free software projects. There is nothing to be lost
> by sharing more widely.
> 
> With free software 'the feeding of the 5,000' (biblical reference there)
> is not a miracle, because the duplication of it is what computers do as
> a fundamental operation, it is just a matter of attitude to want it to
> happen.
> 
> For anyone in Essex I am trying to restart the Chelmer LUG in
> Chelmsford. We had our first meeting last weekend and had great support
> from SOSLUG - but are in need of some more local volunteers too.
> 
> -- 
> *Deluxe Technology Ltd*
> /Linux Consultant/
> mhous...@deluxe-tech.co.uk 
> http://www.deluxe-tech.co.uk
> Mob: 07970 850961
> 


So lets put some of this on the loco pages :)


Paul

-- 

Paul Sutton Cert SLPS (Open)
http://www.zleap.net


Open Mic nights - Wednesday 8pm to 11pm (14+) Free entry
Breakin' Ground - Street dance for young people (8+) Wednesday 6pm
(starts May 11th)

The Lighthouse,26 Esplanade Road, Paignton
01803 411 812 or e-mail  i...@devonmusiccollective.com for more info.

17th September 2011 - Software freedom day


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Martin Houston]

I seem to have stirred up quite a bit of debate with this.

Michael Devenish makes a good suggestion that the Race Online volunteers 
need to get a bit of education with Ubuntu. It is an achievement to get 
it on the menu as an option but it is clear that the Microsoft spin 
doctors have had a hand in the wording of the Remploy site. The Windows 
option gets more coverage and glowing terms like 'safe and familiar'. It 
gets 50% more coverage in fact!


It would have been nice to have little snippets like Linux's 20 year 
history and the fact it runs on > 95% of all super computers. The page 
is very biased to say the least.


It is regrettable that the computers are such low spec, but if you are 
on benefits even another £50 spent on improving this would seem like a lot.


Another thing we could help with as a community is finding ways of 
making there low spec computers tolerable. It seems the place they have 
been squeezed the most is memory.


Surely collectively the 'geek' community must have quite a bit of 
smaller capacity and old tech memory lying about. But could let the 
recipients of these systems get to 512 meg or more. Its just a matter of 
matching up memory type with who needs it. This is something that local 
Linux user groups need to do. Each group could have a 'charity box' of 
donated bits that could just be the thing to make some otherwise piece 
of junk live again.


Using a computer need not be expensive. Just time consuming (but 
interesting).



If the right memory cannot be found at the right (i.e. very low or free) 
price then at a pinch adding a second HD just for swap makes even a low 
memory system far more tolerable, or taking things on the head and 
running the OS from a £5 USB stick, just using the HD for swap. The 
biggest cost of swap is the fact that the disk heads have been forced 
away from what they were up to at the time. Take that out of the 
equation and a swapping system could be called sedate but not as easily 
catatonic. All for an old small capacity HD.


We need to give these people confidence that they can 'pimp their ride' 
like this.


I want people to see this as an opportunity to get a vibrant local Linux 
SIG going in your own area as a service to the community.


Service can take many forms, helping more people out of the darkness of 
ignorance is one thing.


These people will be done no favours if they go from no computer 
knowlege to trying to cope with XP, especially on such a low spec 
machine! And later perhaps some of those same people introduced to the 
way the global community of the Internet really is become useful 
contributors to cool free software projects. There is nothing to be lost 
by sharing more widely.


With free software 'the feeding of the 5,000' (biblical reference there) 
is not a miracle, because the duplication of it is what computers do as 
a fundamental operation, it is just a matter of attitude to want it to 
happen.


For anyone in Essex I am trying to restart the Chelmer LUG in 
Chelmsford. We had our first meeting last weekend and had great support 
from SOSLUG - but are in need of some more local volunteers too.


--
*Deluxe Technology Ltd*
/Linux Consultant/
mhous...@deluxe-tech.co.uk 
http://www.deluxe-tech.co.uk
Mob: 07970 850961
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Alan Pope]

On 18 May 2011 21:19, Paul Sutton  wrote:
> do we sign up individually or sign up as the south west loco team and
> have the loco team website as a holding place for people who can help
>

I'd wait for guidance from Alan Bell as he's the point of contact for
the LoCo. Probably best to go through him since he's already made
contact, rather than flood them with lots of requests.

Al.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Paul Sutton]

On 18/05/11 19:54, Alan Pope wrote:
> On 18 May 2011 19:22, Alan Bell  wrote:
>> I'd like to see us being a race online partner organisation and actually
>> being some of those 100,000 volunteers. http://raceonline2012.org I can't
>> see why we shouldn't, what do you think?
>>
> 
> If we're organised and disciplined, totally we can do this. Other LoCo
> teams do.
> 
> We have a vast amount of skills in the LoCo, and indeed one of the
> most populated LoCos in the world (France excepted - they have insane
> subscriber numbers, a team to chase!).
> 
> I'd be willing to help, whether it's finding machines to build,
> building, deploying or supporting.
> 
> Al.
> 


Ok if people have a login to launchpad they can edit the loco team page
which thus far has had me doing this,

do we sign up individually or sign up as the south west loco team and
have the loco team website as a holding place for people who can help

Paul

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Paul Sutton]

On 18/05/11 19:37, Rob Beard wrote:
> On 18/05/11 14:48, Matthew Daubney wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 18 May 2011 13:05, Paul Sutton > > wrote:
>>
>>
>> So what can we do about this, I am currently helping at a youth music
>> project that has now got 4 / 5 ubuntu computers up and running,  I am
>> struggling to maintain what we have on zero budget
>>
>>
>> What help do you need and where?

It's more up to the people running the place to get organised and get
stuff we need to do  the job they want us to do.

>>
> 
> I think some of it is providing after support.  In Exeter we've started
> a laptop adoption scheme (one of the guys in the LUG runs his own
> consultancy business and has made some good contacts, once such contact
> has a load of ex-corporate and ex-school laptops).  He came up with the
> idea of offering these laptops for around £25 each to residents in
> Exeter who might not already have a computer at home.

Yeah, I would struggle with some of this after support, and am worried
about someone saying I don't get this with windows and switch back to
windows on that basis when the issue is something really easy to
resolve, so yeah we need the backup.
> 
> As part of this scheme they come along to a LUG meeting, they get taken
> through installing Linux from a USB stick (in this case a slighty
> customised version of Linux Mint with a couple of extra packages) and
> get shown how to use it, they get taken through the basics of the
> applications, setting up an e-mail address etc.
> 
That would be really good, but as you said finding somewhere to do this
is easier said than done.

> We're also offering to install Linux (either Ubuntu or Mint generally
> depending what we have on hand) on peoples PCs.  The problem we had with
> this on the last install we did was that they had a USB ADSL modem from
> Talktalk.  Nowadays most people seem to have routers with ethernet ports
> or wireless etc but then as we found in this case, there are the odd few
> people who might still be using USB modems, dialup or whatnot.  This
> particular installation required a home visit (luckily I was free so
> offered to pop over) and I got them up and running so they now dual boot
> between Linux Mint 10 and a god awful slow installation of Vista.
> 
> I did give them my contact details and told them that if they needed any
> help to contact me.  These folks live in Exeter and I live in Torquay
> (but work in Exeter) so visiting wouldn't be too bad, but other than
> this the idea was they could come to a LUG meeting and get support once
> a month, what I think would be handy would be to be able to give support
> if need be, either remotely or in person.  I don't mind helping out with
> this myself, although I find it easier if they're local to me.
> 
> Hopefully as the Exeter meeting starts to get more popular more of the
> local LUG members in Exeter who go to the meeting will be able to offer
> support (the Exeter LUG meeting has only been running for about 3
> months).  No doubt others have found similar sorts of things across the
> country.
> 
>> if we as a community want to promote Ubuntu and or Linux to the
>> masses
>> we need investment and money overall.
>>

Well MS have a budget they can get their name everywhere,  I never see
posters with Linux on as an alternative,

>>
>> I'm not convinced about that statement.. but it has a slight ring of
>> truth to it.
> 
> I think part of the problem we're finding in Torbay is there isn't many
> places available to maybe do install days etc.  But we do have a
> suitable location for things like the Ubuntu hour idea.  We've been able
> to demo Ubuntu and other things on laptops at a local resturant/bar at
> LUG meetings and we have had a mention before in the local paper.
> 
>>
>> User groups want to do something, but may lack the funds to do
>> so,  if
>> we find a worth while cause we end up hitting a financial barrier,
>>
>> we need to promote the alternatives and actually BE THERE when people
>> want help,  so we can support up to a point then if I am stick i
>> need to
>> be able to get someone who can help there ASAP to sort out the issue,
>>
>>
>> What it sounds like you need here is a way to ask for some help. The
>> groups I know need help are the ones that ask for it (like the recent
>> email around from the Nottingham hackspace)


yeah, who to ask, or people close enough to simply visit, so we can talk
directly to them, I am really poor at this sort of thing, i can cope
with some aspects of asking for help but get in a real muddle sometimes,
i think i need advice on what to ask for.

ok so what sort of help is available in Devon ?

paul
> 
> I think part of the problem we have in Devon & Cornwall specifically is
> that only a few of us are enthusaistic about getting out there and
> promoting FLOSS, although things are getting better, we have meetings in
> Torbay, Exeter, North Devon and there was talk about a P

Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Alan Pope]

On 18 May 2011 19:22, Alan Bell  wrote:
> I'd like to see us being a race online partner organisation and actually
> being some of those 100,000 volunteers. http://raceonline2012.org I can't
> see why we shouldn't, what do you think?
>

If we're organised and disciplined, totally we can do this. Other LoCo
teams do.

We have a vast amount of skills in the LoCo, and indeed one of the
most populated LoCos in the world (France excepted - they have insane
subscriber numbers, a team to chase!).

I'd be willing to help, whether it's finding machines to build,
building, deploying or supporting.

Al.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Rob Beard]

On 18/05/11 19:22, Alan Bell wrote:

On 18/05/11 19:02, Michael Devenish wrote:

I'd like to see the 100,000 volunteers for the Race Online 2012
campaign encouraged to download and try Ubuntu so they are at least
aware of it and can explain if anyone asks them. They'd also need to
be told where to go for tutorials and assistance with Ubuntu.


I'd like to see us being a race online partner organisation and actually
being some of those 100,000 volunteers. http://raceonline2012.org I
can't see why we shouldn't, what do you think?

Alan.



Sounds like a good idea, I'd certainly sign up to be a volunteer, I'm 
sure many more of us would too.


Rob

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Rob Beard]

On 18/05/11 18:00, Alan Bell wrote:

I would rather they just stuck a respectable amount of ram in them and
put Ubuntu on them, it works just fine on low spec machines. I don't
really see the point in having an OS that "works" in low memory
conditions when as soon as you open Firefox and LibreOffice it is going
to be painful anyway.

Alan.


I agree with this, I'm sure they'd have machines which don't work for 
varying reasons which they can take bits from.


They could at least put 512MB and 1GB respectively in each machine.

Rob

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Rob Beard]

On 18/05/11 14:48, Matthew Daubney wrote:



On 18 May 2011 13:05, Paul Sutton mailto:zl...@zleap.net>> wrote:


So what can we do about this, I am currently helping at a youth music
project that has now got 4 / 5 ubuntu computers up and running,  I am
struggling to maintain what we have on zero budget


What help do you need and where?



I think some of it is providing after support.  In Exeter we've started 
a laptop adoption scheme (one of the guys in the LUG runs his own 
consultancy business and has made some good contacts, once such contact 
has a load of ex-corporate and ex-school laptops).  He came up with the 
idea of offering these laptops for around £25 each to residents in 
Exeter who might not already have a computer at home.


As part of this scheme they come along to a LUG meeting, they get taken 
through installing Linux from a USB stick (in this case a slighty 
customised version of Linux Mint with a couple of extra packages) and 
get shown how to use it, they get taken through the basics of the 
applications, setting up an e-mail address etc.


We're also offering to install Linux (either Ubuntu or Mint generally 
depending what we have on hand) on peoples PCs.  The problem we had with 
this on the last install we did was that they had a USB ADSL modem from 
Talktalk.  Nowadays most people seem to have routers with ethernet ports 
or wireless etc but then as we found in this case, there are the odd few 
people who might still be using USB modems, dialup or whatnot.  This 
particular installation required a home visit (luckily I was free so 
offered to pop over) and I got them up and running so they now dual boot 
between Linux Mint 10 and a god awful slow installation of Vista.


I did give them my contact details and told them that if they needed any 
help to contact me.  These folks live in Exeter and I live in Torquay 
(but work in Exeter) so visiting wouldn't be too bad, but other than 
this the idea was they could come to a LUG meeting and get support once 
a month, what I think would be handy would be to be able to give support 
if need be, either remotely or in person.  I don't mind helping out with 
this myself, although I find it easier if they're local to me.


Hopefully as the Exeter meeting starts to get more popular more of the 
local LUG members in Exeter who go to the meeting will be able to offer 
support (the Exeter LUG meeting has only been running for about 3 
months).  No doubt others have found similar sorts of things across the 
country.



if we as a community want to promote Ubuntu and or Linux to the masses
we need investment and money overall.


I'm not convinced about that statement.. but it has a slight ring of
truth to it.


I think part of the problem we're finding in Torbay is there isn't many 
places available to maybe do install days etc.  But we do have a 
suitable location for things like the Ubuntu hour idea.  We've been able 
to demo Ubuntu and other things on laptops at a local resturant/bar at 
LUG meetings and we have had a mention before in the local paper.




User groups want to do something, but may lack the funds to do so,  if
we find a worth while cause we end up hitting a financial barrier,

we need to promote the alternatives and actually BE THERE when people
want help,  so we can support up to a point then if I am stick i need to
be able to get someone who can help there ASAP to sort out the issue,


What it sounds like you need here is a way to ask for some help. The
groups I know need help are the ones that ask for it (like the recent
email around from the Nottingham hackspace)


I think part of the problem we have in Devon & Cornwall specifically is 
that only a few of us are enthusaistic about getting out there and 
promoting FLOSS, although things are getting better, we have meetings in 
Torbay, Exeter, North Devon and there was talk about a Plymouth meeting. 
 I'm not sure what the Cornwall guys are doing, I belive there was two 
demo days held in Penzance a couple of years ago.  Seems to be the same 
few people who get involved though :-)


Rob

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Alan Bell]

On 18/05/11 19:02, Michael Devenish wrote:
I'd like to see the 100,000 volunteers for the Race Online 2012 
campaign encouraged to download and try Ubuntu so they are at least 
aware of it and can explain if anyone asks them. They'd also need to 
be told where to go for tutorials and assistance with Ubuntu.


I'd like to see us being a race online partner organisation and actually 
being some of those 100,000 volunteers. http://raceonline2012.org I 
can't see why we shouldn't, what do you think?


Alan.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Michael Devenish]

I'd like to see the 100,000 volunteers for the Race Online 2012 campaign
encouraged to download and try Ubuntu so they are at least aware of it and
can explain if anyone asks them. They'd also need to be told where to go for
tutorials and assistance with Ubuntu.

Regards,

Michael Devenish

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Alan Bell <
alan.b...@theopenlearningcentre.com> wrote:

> On 18/05/11 13:05, Paul Sutton wrote:
>
>> oh and people have full time jobs, so we need to do this when we have
>> time and between other activities.#
>>
> yeah, but some people have a full time job for which more Free Software in
> the UK would be a strategic benefit. I really want more people to be working
> as individuals or small (or large) businesses providing consultancy and
> support for Ubuntu and Free software in general.
>
>  perhaps one of the reasons that MS have jumped on this is because they
>> can, they have the discs, have the books, have the support and can
>> afford the infrastructure.   The OSS community can't so we lose out and
>> will continue to do so. did canonical offer to do anything on this.
>>
>>  ok, a few points here. You may have missed the fact that *THEY ARE
> SHIPPING UBUNTU* this is a win. Yes they are in theory offering Windows as
> well (with strings attached) but lets not lose sight of the important bit
> here.
> Proprietary companies do flood the charitable sector with their leftover
> dross at knockdown prices. They do this because it costs them nothing
> (incremental cost of production of software is zero) and they get joint
> press releases that they can wave about and call Corporate Social
> Responsibility. There is probably some tax writeoff involved too somewhere,
> but I can't be bothered to find it. This bunch have talked to Canonical
> (don't know who in Canonical) but it isn't being done with Canonical
> support.
>
> Alan.
>
>
> --
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Alan Bell]

I would rather they just stuck a respectable amount of ram in them and 
put Ubuntu on them, it works just fine on low spec machines. I don't 
really see the point in having an OS that "works" in low memory 
conditions when as soon as you open Firefox and LibreOffice it is going 
to be painful anyway.


Alan.

On 18/05/11 14:48, Phill Whiteside wrote:

Hi Alan,

for such low spec machines it *may* be worth trying the Lubuntu suite 
on them. Lubuntu gets full adoption at 11.10 by Canonical, the 11.04 
is happily running now. For really old kit (pre i686) lubuntu are 
going to continue to backport to the 10.04 stable beta the lxde and 
pcmanfm etc. for a while yet. (I think we were discussing 5 years).


Regards,

Phill.



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Alan Bell]

On 18/05/11 13:05, Paul Sutton wrote:

oh and people have full time jobs, so we need to do this when we have
time and between other activities.#
yeah, but some people have a full time job for which more Free Software 
in the UK would be a strategic benefit. I really want more people to be 
working as individuals or small (or large) businesses providing 
consultancy and support for Ubuntu and Free software in general.

perhaps one of the reasons that MS have jumped on this is because they
can, they have the discs, have the books, have the support and can
afford the infrastructure.   The OSS community can't so we lose out and
will continue to do so. did canonical offer to do anything on this.

ok, a few points here. You may have missed the fact that *THEY ARE 
SHIPPING UBUNTU* this is a win. Yes they are in theory offering Windows 
as well (with strings attached) but lets not lose sight of the important 
bit here.
Proprietary companies do flood the charitable sector with their leftover 
dross at knockdown prices. They do this because it costs them nothing 
(incremental cost of production of software is zero) and they get joint 
press releases that they can wave about and call Corporate Social 
Responsibility. There is probably some tax writeoff involved too 
somewhere, but I can't be bothered to find it. This bunch have talked to 
Canonical (don't know who in Canonical) but it isn't being done with 
Canonical support.


Alan.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Phill Whiteside]

Hi Alan,

for such low spec machines it *may* be worth trying the Lubuntu suite on
them. Lubuntu gets full adoption at 11.10 by Canonical, the 11.04 is happily
running now. For really old kit (pre i686) lubuntu are going to continue to
backport to the 10.04 stable beta the lxde and pcmanfm etc. for a while yet.
(I think we were discussing 5 years).

Regards,

Phill.

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Alan Bell  wrote:

> On 18/05/11 08:27, Alan Bell wrote:
>
>> On 17/05/11 23:30, Martin Houston wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Sorry for the long post but this has just made my blood boil and I think
>>> we should all be making the maximum fuss we can about this.
>>>
>> I think I will give them a call and see if we can work with them
>> constructively to provide better information about the Ubuntu PCs and ensure
>> that purchasers get drawn into the Ubuntu UK community. Lets leave the
>> negative campaigning to others.
>>
>> Alan.
>>
>>  I gave them a call and spoke to the boss, they are interested in our help
> getting the marketing messages right, particularly around stuff like the
> fact that iTunes does not support Ubuntu. They have also been having issues
> because they are doing a build of 10.10 and it offers the user an upgrade to
> 11.04 and they had some users where the upgrade failed. I am going to follow
> up with there technical staff and get them involved in the LoCo.
>
> I would like to use a bit of the ubuntu-uk.org site to help support and
> promote vendors that sell Ubuntu pre-installed as well, this is something we
> should be encouraging.
>
>
> Alan.
>
> --
> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Matthew Daubney]

On 18 May 2011 13:05, Paul Sutton  wrote:

>
> So what can we do about this, I am currently helping at a youth music
> project that has now got 4 / 5 ubuntu computers up and running,  I am
> struggling to maintain what we have on zero budget
>
>
What help do you need and where?


> if we as a community want to promote Ubuntu and or Linux to the masses
> we need investment and money overall.
>
>
I'm not convinced about that statement.. but it has a slight ring of truth
to it.


> User groups want to do something, but may lack the funds to do so,  if
> we find a worth while cause we end up hitting a financial barrier,
>


> we need to promote the alternatives and actually BE THERE when people
> want help,  so we can support up to a point then if I am stick i need to
> be able to get someone who can help there ASAP to sort out the issue,
>
>
What it sounds like you need here is a way to ask for some help. The groups
I know need help are the ones that ask for it (like the recent email around
from the Nottingham hackspace)


> We need to educate people as to what is wrong with MS and word without
> making us look like some fundamentalist out of touch lunatics, so we
> need a proper argument, backed with evidence, backed with support,  find
> out the arguments against OSS and create counter arguments and provide a
> viable alternative.
>
> oh and people have full time jobs, so we need to do this when we have
> time and between other activities.
>
> perhaps one of the reasons that MS have jumped on this is because they
> can, they have the discs, have the books, have the support and can
> afford the infrastructure.   The OSS community can't so we lose out and
> will continue to do so. did canonical offer to do anything on this.
>
> we need to all work together, regardless of distro and really push what
> we believe in. so the alternative is viable.
>
>
Absolutley.

-Matt Daubney
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Avi Greenbury]

Martin Houston wrote:

Sorry for the long post but this has just made my blood boil and I think
we should all be making the maximum fuss we can about this.


To whom, and why?

To the vendor who has gone out on a limb and chosen to ship a flavour of 
Linux? To the Government who have allowed such choice under whatever 
scheme this is?


And with what intended result?

--
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Alan Bell]

On 18/05/11 08:27, Alan Bell wrote:

On 17/05/11 23:30, Martin Houston wrote:


Sorry for the long post but this has just made my blood boil and I 
think we should all be making the maximum fuss we can about this.
I think I will give them a call and see if we can work with them 
constructively to provide better information about the Ubuntu PCs and 
ensure that purchasers get drawn into the Ubuntu UK community. Lets 
leave the negative campaigning to others.


Alan.

I gave them a call and spoke to the boss, they are interested in our 
help getting the marketing messages right, particularly around stuff 
like the fact that iTunes does not support Ubuntu. They have also been 
having issues because they are doing a build of 10.10 and it offers the 
user an upgrade to 11.04 and they had some users where the upgrade 
failed. I am going to follow up with there technical staff and get them 
involved in the LoCo.


I would like to use a bit of the ubuntu-uk.org site to help support and 
promote vendors that sell Ubuntu pre-installed as well, this is 
something we should be encouraging.


Alan.

--
ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Paul Sutton]

On 17/05/11 23:30, Martin Houston wrote:
> The under £100 cheap PCs for the disadvantaged go on sale today.
> 
> See
> http://www.ecycleonline.co.uk/choose-your-computer---from-9200-8-c.asp
> 
> 
> Ubuntu 10.10 is there as a solid and no strings attached choice.
> 
> But for only £3 more so is Windows XP and Office!
> 
> This is very bad news for the disadvantaged, for the rest of the
> Internet community who are going to have to put up with millions of new
> potential malware filled zombie computers to deal with.
> 
> The users also have to agree to special licensing terms as Microsoft is
> doing them such a BIG favour (not).
> 
> Why would Microsoft do such a thing? Is it not trying to end of life XP?
> 
> It seems that keeping several million new computer users away from the
> freedom of running and learning about the free software that the
> Internet itself tends to run on.
> 
> We in the free software community should not take this clumsy piece of
> vote buying lying down. Make a fuss.
> 
> Netbooks were a great chance to free people from having to run Windows.
> However Microsoft came in and changed ground rules, forced netbooks to
> be non upgradeable and carrying battery sucking hard disks because XP
> was not so hot about running from SSD.
> 
> We don't want the same thing to happen in the second user computer
> marketplace now it is becoming significant.
> 
> Five year old PCs are just fine for running Linux for most peoples use.
> They really don't need to be distracted by XP and weasel worded licences.
> 
> Sorry for the long post but this has just made my blood boil and I think
> we should all be making the maximum fuss we can about this.
> -- 
> *Deluxe Technology Ltd*
> /Linux Consultant/
> mhous...@deluxe-tech.co.uk 
> http://www.deluxe-tech.co.uk
> Mob: 07970 850961
> 


So what can we do about this, I am currently helping at a youth music
project that has now got 4 / 5 ubuntu computers up and running,  I am
struggling to maintain what we have on zero budget

if we as a community want to promote Ubuntu and or Linux to the masses
we need investment and money overall.

User groups want to do something, but may lack the funds to do so,  if
we find a worth while cause we end up hitting a financial barrier,

we need to promote the alternatives and actually BE THERE when people
want help,  so we can support up to a point then if I am stick i need to
be able to get someone who can help there ASAP to sort out the issue,

We need to educate people as to what is wrong with MS and word without
making us look like some fundamentalist out of touch lunatics, so we
need a proper argument, backed with evidence, backed with support,  find
out the arguments against OSS and create counter arguments and provide a
viable alternative.

oh and people have full time jobs, so we need to do this when we have
time and between other activities.

perhaps one of the reasons that MS have jumped on this is because they
can, they have the discs, have the books, have the support and can
afford the infrastructure.   The OSS community can't so we lose out and
will continue to do so. did canonical offer to do anything on this.

we need to all work together, regardless of distro and really push what
we believe in. so the alternative is viable.


Paul

-- 

Paul Sutton Cert SLPS (Open)
http://www.zleap.net


Open Mic nights - Wednesday 8pm to 11pm (14+) Free entry
Breakin' Ground - Street dance for young people (8+) Wednesday 6pm
(starts May 11th)

The Lighthouse,26 Esplanade Road, Paignton
01803 411 812 or e-mail  i...@devonmusiccollective.com for more info.

17th September 2011 - Software freedom day


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[alan c]

On 18/05/11 08:27, Alan Bell wrote:

On 17/05/11 23:30, Martin Houston wrote:


 Sorry for the long post but this has just made my blood boil and I
 think we should all be making the maximum fuss we can about this.

I think I will give them a call and see if we can work with them
constructively to provide better information about the Ubuntu PCs and
ensure that purchasers get drawn into the Ubuntu UK community. Lets
leave the negative campaigning to others.

Alan.


Alan, will you  also keep in touch with me, perhaps offline? If I can 
help particularly in my local area I certainly will.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Alan Bell]

On 17/05/11 23:30, Martin Houston wrote:


Sorry for the long post but this has just made my blood boil and I 
think we should all be making the maximum fuss we can about this.
I think I will give them a call and see if we can work with them 
constructively to provide better information about the Ubuntu PCs and 
ensure that purchasers get drawn into the Ubuntu UK community. Lets 
leave the negative campaigning to others.


Alan.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Alan Bell]

yeah, I don't think Windows and Office is worth £3 either.

Anyhow, to get the Windows version you need to qualify:
To qualify for this offer you must be receiving financial help from the 
government in one or more of the following ways. (If requested, I can 
provide evidence of this.)


   * Housing Benefit
   * Income Support
   * Jobseekers allowance
   * Pension credit
   * Disability Living Allowance
   * Attendance Allowance / Constant Attendance Allowance
   * Incapacity Benefit / Employment and Support Allowance
   * Disability element of Working Tax Credit

and both windows variants are listed as out of stock, but the Ubuntu 
ones are not. Funnily enough I installed Ubuntu 11.04 on a P4 1.6Ghz 
Dell Inspiron like the one illustrated, I put 1GB of ram in it though 
and it works great. It does do OpenGL, but won't quite run full Unity, 
so it has Unity 2d which works great. 256MB ram is totally not enough.


Alan.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Race Online 2012 PCs shocker!

[Rob Beard]

On 17/05/11 23:30, Martin Houston wrote:

The under £100 cheap PCs for the disadvantaged go on sale today.

See
http://www.ecycleonline.co.uk/choose-your-computer---from-9200-8-c.asp


Ubuntu 10.10 is there as a solid and no strings attached choice.

But for only £3 more so is Windows XP and Office!

This is very bad news for the disadvantaged, for the rest of the
Internet community who are going to have to put up with millions of new
potential malware filled zombie computers to deal with.

The users also have to agree to special licensing terms as Microsoft is
doing them such a BIG favour (not).

Why would Microsoft do such a thing? Is it not trying to end of life XP?

It seems that keeping several million new computer users away from the
freedom of running and learning about the free software that the
Internet itself tends to run on.


I think you hit the nail on the head there.  Users are probably going to 
say "Ubuntu? Never heard of it, Windows?  Oh yeah I'll pay the extra 3 
quid".




We in the free software community should not take this clumsy piece of
vote buying lying down. Make a fuss.






Five year old PCs are just fine for running Linux for most peoples use.
They really don't need to be distracted by XP and weasel worded licences.



Not to mention, have you seen the spec?

256MB Ram on the XP machine, that's going to run like a dog.

512MB Ram on the Windows 7 machine, erm... according to the Windows 7 
official training material I have for work, the minimum requirement is 
1GB Ram (although I believe Windows 7 Starter will work on 512MB Ram).


So these machines are horribly under specced for Windows.  I wouldn't 
want to run Ubuntu on 256MB either really, maybe Xubuntu but not Ubuntu.


Since they are recycling machines I'm sure they could have upped the 
spec a slight bit and doubled the memory on the machines.


Not to mention I've seen ex-corporate notebooks with Dual Core CPUs and 
1GB Ram for around the £170 mark with netbooks being slightly cheaper 
(from Tier1Online.co.uk).


To be honest, I'm not shocked about it all, just bitterly disapointed.

Rob

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