Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
> I am happy with this list in its current form. I happen to like gmane > via NNTP and if pressed (i.e. not using my own machine)will use the web > interface. So I agree with Robin's conclusion albeit for different reasons. > I'll take a look at this NNTP /gname interface - sounds interesting. I wonder if it'd be a good idea to have some kind of tutorial outlining it - perhaps as an alternative to users who want forums. Chris -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
TheVeech wrote: > Usenet - More open than the above two, but vulnerable to the problems > this can entail. Again, I don't read all the posts, but I find them > more manageable than Forums There is another option (mentioned elsewhere in this thread) which is to use NNTP protocol but not part of Usenet. I read this list via gmane over nntp. This to me means - I can record which messages I have read/not read - I can choose which newsreader I want - can mark (using thunderbird) which message I want to reply to later etc My main grouses against forums is that - you are forced to use whatever "user friendly" front end the implementer has chosen. - in most ones I have come across it is hard to find which posts are new and which you have already seen. And following another part of the thread Robin Menneer wrote: > I"m happy with this list provided it stays in its present form. Had a > look at Gmane and don't like it. Robin I am happy with this list in its current form. I happen to like gmane via NNTP and if pressed (i.e. not using my own machine)will use the web interface. So I agree with Robin's conclusion albeit for different reasons. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 22:04 +, Nik Butler wrote: > In regards to the Forums Vs Mail List Vs IRC vs Wiki What about Usenet? There may not be the numbers available yet for a specific UK Ubuntu Usenet newsgroup, but I can see it being productive further down the line. I don't think a Usenet newsgroup would be something that would replace anything else, though - instead, something that caters to people who prefer Usenet. Usenet groups have their advantages and disadvantages, sure, but I'd love to have the option. As for Forums - I like them, but don't even get close to reading all the posts - the Ubuntu ones seem to be very popular Mailing Lists - Never liked them, but find them productive - I read pretty much everything Usenet - More open than the above two, but vulnerable to the problems this can entail. Again, I don't read all the posts, but I find them more manageable than Forums Wiki - Good, but more static than the rest and, apart from some cases, I don't think the teamwork's there yet IRC - Never got into it -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
In regards to the Forums Vs Mail List Vs IRC vs Wiki Every form of communication and expression we have at our disposal should be utilised in as much or as little an framework as possible. It is hard to determine the vectors into which a new member or interested user might become integrated into the community and therefore not easy to set a preferred mandate for that communication. This particular thread has been created multiple times and goes to demonstrate the issues both forum and mail list which all new and prospective contributors face and it is therefore a shame that it is a potentially volatile one. The community manager has in the past expressed a desire to go for the low hanging and easy to gather fruits and I suspect that this requires a more inclusive and open framework for people to take part in the Ubuntu community especially within the UK. To this end a few Ubuntu UK members are evaluating and testing , on separate lists and forum areas, integration of mail to forum and vice a versa. When testing is completed and only if the results are satisfactory will we discuss the relevance of integration between the two mediums. If you do have any questions or concerns I would ask that you direct them to me, clearly marked in the subject line, and I will, if appropriate, add them to the testing prerogatives for the evaluation. Needless to say if the results are a big scary hairy mess we will post this somewhere useful and leave it in a FAQ of some variety for developers to resolve in the future. Thanks again for your time and for reading this . Nik Butler Ubuntu-UK -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
On 19/03/07, Chris Rowson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't - to be honest - see why we have to choose one or the other. > Surely both forums and mailing lists can be used, with people choosing > their favorite. > > Anything important and urgent enough to demand the immediate attention > of all group members could be posted on both the forum and mailing > list. It's only a case of cut and paste. The concern was about splitting the community into two, since some who favour mailing lists (myself included) will not regularly visit a forum and vice versa. The problem with cut-and-paste is the same problem as cutting and pasting code in a program - it's better to have things in just one place. If you cut-and-paste, the thread will diverge quickly. > [snip] > > Implementation doesn't have to be too hard either. UbuntuForums will > provide a forum to any LoCo team making a request for one. I for one > would prefer to use a forum, but will use a mailing list in > conjunction with it. I think this matter is important enough to have > proper vote on. The preferred suggestion was to use a list-to-forum gateway, and it was mentioned that (at least) one of the other forums on UbuntuForums was already using a suitable system. I don't remember hearing anything after this though. Hwyl, Neil. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 11:24 +, Paul Tansom wrote: > Basically I sign up to forums and that is often as far as it gets. On > the other side of things, I am subscribed to numerous mailing lists and > scan through them regularly and where I can help out I do so. Maybe I'm > more techy than end user, but my activity drops when forums are used. I find it basically boils down to an issue of push vs pull. Mailing lists generally push what you want to you, whereas forums make you go get it, and pull it to you. (Or, if they support "push", then that's often in a crippled form [ie, no replying to the notification; notifications not threaded]). We had a similar discussion as to whether the UbuntuStudio dev team would use a list and a wiki for collaboration, as we do now, or use a forum more. We decided to stick with the former. Toby -- Help me get to Venezuela! http://tibsplace.co.uk/venezuela -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
> This is something that has cropped up several times in the year or so I have > been a member of the team. > > I suggested it myself sometime back and volunteered to build a site for the > purpose, but the overwhelming voice of opinion at the time was that the > majority > of the team prefer e-mail circulars. Personally, I don't, and I find reading a > thread on a website in date order much easier than half a dozen e-mails I don't - to be honest - see why we have to choose one or the other. Surely both forums and mailing lists can be used, with people choosing their favorite. Anything important and urgent enough to demand the immediate attention of all group members could be posted on both the forum and mailing list. It's only a case of cut and paste. > I am all for a discussion forum though and will happily build one if people > will > use it and\or if there are no other volunteers. But I don't think the majorty > of > the membership will want it. > > Ted Implementation doesn't have to be too hard either. UbuntuForums will provide a forum to any LoCo team making a request for one. I for one would prefer to use a forum, but will use a mailing list in conjunction with it. I think this matter is important enough to have proper vote on. Chris -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
- Original Message - From: Johnathon Tinsley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Monday, March 19, 2007 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums To: ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com > > Hey there - thanks for the welcome ;-) > > > > I'd tend to agree with you. It'd be great if the mailing list stuff > > could get shunted to a forum too. I know a couple of LUG's > that do > > that. > > > > I suppose it's all pretty dependent on who you want to attract > to a > discussion. > > > Personally, I find email lists annoying. I get so many emails, status > alerts, web-design mailing list etc already, I really don't need > anymore. I prefer Forums, if just because I'm much more at home > in them. > If I want to know when someone has replied, I'll use the reply > notification. It means, I only get emails on subjects I'm interested > in/can help with, whereas there is quite a lot of traffic on > this list > that doesn't concern me, which has me hitting the delete key > quite a > lot, even with the list in digest mode. > > A forum/list gateway would be good. I guess the real question to ask > now, is will it ever happen? > > Also, some of the rules of mailing lists elude me still. Can someone > tell me what "top posting" is, and what I need to do? > > Regards, > > Kirrus > Top posting is adding your text above the previous text when replying to an email. It's bad because it breaks the flow of the conversation. You're not top posting so you don't need to do anything :) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
This is top posting. On 19/03/07, Johnathon Tinsley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Also, some of the rules of mailing lists elude me still. Can someone tell me > what "top posting" is, and what I need to do? Whereas this (which is what you did) isn't. It can get a bit annoying if everyone top posts vs. replying underneath & cutting out the quoted bits that aren't neccessary (like how I chopped out everything from your mail that I wasn't replying to). Emails get larger and larger and if you receive digests you get multiple copies of the same thing in an enormous email. Some people care, some people don't... like most manners :) That's all there is to it really. Martin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
> Hey there - thanks for the welcome ;-) > > I'd tend to agree with you. It'd be great if the mailing list stuff > could get shunted to a forum too. I know a couple of LUG's that do > that. > > I suppose it's all pretty dependent on who you want to attract to a discussion. Personally, I find email lists annoying. I get so many emails, status alerts, web-design mailing list etc already, I really don't need anymore. I prefer Forums, if just because I'm much more at home in them. If I want to know when someone has replied, I'll use the reply notification. It means, I only get emails on subjects I'm interested in/can help with, whereas there is quite a lot of traffic on this list that doesn't concern me, which has me hitting the delete key quite a lot, even with the list in digest mode. A forum/list gateway would be good. I guess the real question to ask now, is will it ever happen? Also, some of the rules of mailing lists elude me still. Can someone tell me what "top posting" is, and what I need to do? Regards, Kirrus -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
** Chris Rowson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-03-18 22:52]: > Hey there - thanks for the welcome ;-) > > I'd tend to agree with you. It'd be great if the mailing list stuff > could get shunted to a forum too. I know a couple of LUG's that do > that. > > I suppose it's all pretty dependent on who you want to attract to a > discussion. ** end quote [Chris Rowson] I'm not a particularly active poster here (yet) since I'm still sitting incomfortably between Debian and Ubuntu and not fully comfortable switching over (yet) - but that's a completely separate issue. I am one of those that strongly prefers lists to forums though. I don't specifically object to forums, but even though I have joined several I find that I rarely if ever participate in them. I will ask a question and it will be ages before I remember to pop back to check for an answer. If I am looking for something on there I get very frustrated with the time it takes to search and/or move between messages. I also find that dropping in and out of many different web forums is more hassle than I can be bothered with. Basically I sign up to forums and that is often as far as it gets. On the other side of things, I am subscribed to numerous mailing lists and scan through them regularly and where I can help out I do so. Maybe I'm more techy than end user, but my activity drops when forums are used. As an example, I used to be an active team member on the list and irc of the Smoothwall project, now they use forums I have dropped out of the community completely (there are other factors involved such as that I no longer use Smoothwall, but I was using it up until quite recently and long after I stopped participating). -- Paul Tansom | Aptanet Ltd. | http://www.aptanet.com/ Aptanet Ltd. | Registered in England | Company No: 4905028 Registered Office: Crawford House, Hambledon Road, Denmead, Waterlooville, Hants., PO7 6NU -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
On 3/19/07, Ben Thorp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Phil > > I"m happy with this list provided it stays in its present form. Had a > > look at Gmane and don't like it. Robin > > Another possibility (not that I've read the rest of this thread properly, so > I'm sorry if it's already come up) is mail2forum > (http://www.mail2forum.com/forums/index.php ) which allows > people to interact with a list either through email or through a phpbb > forum. (I know phpbb is not the be-all and end-all, but it just happens to > the be the forum software in this case). Essentially it should mean that the > current format does not change, and those who like the mailing list can > still access it, but there is an alternative way to access it for those who > prefer forums. > > Ben > > Ben Please, if it ain't broke, don't fix it ! Robin > > > > > > Unless stated otherwise above: > IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number > 741598. > Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU > > > > > > > > > > -- > ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk > https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/ > > -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
> Phil > I"m happy with this list provided it stays in its present form. Had a > look at Gmane and don't like it. Robin Another possibility (not that I've read the rest of this thread properly, so I'm sorry if it's already come up) is mail2forum ( http://www.mail2forum.com/forums/index.php ) which allows people to interact with a list either through email or through a phpbb forum. (I know phpbb is not the be-all and end-all, but it just happens to the be the forum software in this case). Essentially it should mean that the current format does not change, and those who like the mailing list can still access it, but there is an alternative way to access it for those who prefer forums. Ben Unless stated otherwise above: IBM United Kingdom Limited - Registered in England and Wales with number 741598. Registered office: PO Box 41, North Harbour, Portsmouth, Hampshire PO6 3AU -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
On 3/19/07, Philip Wyett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 18/03/07, Chris Rowson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I checked out the ubuntuforums.org earlier today to see whether or not > > there was a UK LoCo section there. > > > > I was a little surprised to read that the mailing list had voted not > > to have a presence at ubuntuforums.org and I have a little difficulty > > understanding why. > > > > Surely in this day and age, forums are a viable alternative to mailing > > lists, and even preferable in some situations. I wondered if the > > decision to opt out of ubuntuforums.org was influenced by a fear of > > such a presence damaging the usage of the mailing list. > > > > Whilst I can see why this might be a slap in the face to people who > > have invested so much time into building up the mailing list, surely > > if people would prefer to communicate through the forums, it'd be a > > good idea to use them and 'grow' the community. > > > > I am - I know making the assumption that people prefer forums, but I > > think in general this assumption seems to be true. Where mailing lists > > are the mainstay of open source and linux communication I think forums > > would give the group a higher profile and encourage a far greater > > interaction with the community. > > > > Does anyone else agree or am I alone? Is there any harm in requesting > > a UK LoCo forum? > > > > Chris > > I have been asked why I do not help folks in the forums of another OSS > project > I develop for before and this was my general answer: > > 'I can filter and manage inbound mail far easier than browsing forums and > more > often than not I can pick and choose what to look at higher speeds on my > local drive > using searches rather than in a forum where I am held back by > server/connection speeds. > It is also far easier to track my responses via sent mail items rather than > trying to > track anything on a forum.' > > Time is also a massive issue. Personally I have bill paying work, OSS work > and what I a > laughingly call a life away from computers (a beer or ten occasionally :-D). > So reading so many > messages across many support platforms just ain't feasible! > > Regards > > Phil > > Phil I"m happy with this list provided it stays in its present form. Had a look at Gmane and don't like it. Robin > > -- > ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk > https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/ > > -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
On 18/03/07, Chris Rowson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I checked out the ubuntuforums.org earlier today to see whether or not there was a UK LoCo section there. I was a little surprised to read that the mailing list had voted not to have a presence at ubuntuforums.org and I have a little difficulty understanding why. Surely in this day and age, forums are a viable alternative to mailing lists, and even preferable in some situations. I wondered if the decision to opt out of ubuntuforums.org was influenced by a fear of such a presence damaging the usage of the mailing list. Whilst I can see why this might be a slap in the face to people who have invested so much time into building up the mailing list, surely if people would prefer to communicate through the forums, it'd be a good idea to use them and 'grow' the community. I am - I know making the assumption that people prefer forums, but I think in general this assumption seems to be true. Where mailing lists are the mainstay of open source and linux communication I think forums would give the group a higher profile and encourage a far greater interaction with the community. Does anyone else agree or am I alone? Is there any harm in requesting a UK LoCo forum? Chris I have been asked why I do not help folks in the forums of another OSS project I develop for before and this was my general answer: 'I can filter and manage inbound mail far easier than browsing forums and more often than not I can pick and choose what to look at higher speeds on my local drive using searches rather than in a forum where I am held back by server/connection speeds. It is also far easier to track my responses via sent mail items rather than trying to track anything on a forum.' Time is also a massive issue. Personally I have bill paying work, OSS work and what I a laughingly call a life away from computers (a beer or ten occasionally :-D). So reading so many messages across many support platforms just ain't feasible! Regards Phil -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
"Chris Rowson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >I checked out the ubuntuforums.org earlier today to see whether or not > there was a UK LoCo section there. > > I was a little surprised to read that the mailing list had voted not > to have a presence at ubuntuforums.org and I have a little difficulty > understanding why. > > Surely in this day and age, forums are a viable alternative to mailing > lists, and even preferable in some situations. I wondered if the > decision to opt out of ubuntuforums.org was influenced by a fear of > such a presence damaging the usage of the mailing list. > > Whilst I can see why this might be a slap in the face to people who > have invested so much time into building up the mailing list, surely > if people would prefer to communicate through the forums, it'd be a > good idea to use them and 'grow' the community. > > I am - I know making the assumption that people prefer forums, but I > think in general this assumption seems to be true. Where mailing lists > are the mainstay of open source and linux communication I think forums > would give the group a higher profile and encourage a far greater > interaction with the community. > > Does anyone else agree or am I alone? Is there any harm in requesting > a UK LoCo forum? > > Chris > I am one that doesn't like mailing lists. My inbox gets too choked up anyway with other stuff and I find myself not bothering to read a lot - just hit delete to clear some space :-) . The next best thing to a forum is the news.gmane.org newserver where the lists are in newsgroup form and topics nicely threaded which is where I am posting this from. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
Chris, Chris Rowson wrote: > Hey there - thanks for the welcome ;-) You're welcome! Pun intended:-) > I'd tend to agree with you. It'd be great if the mailing list stuff > could get shunted to a forum too. I know a couple of LUG's that do > that. > > I suppose it's all pretty dependent on who you want to attract to a > discussion. > > After reading that you'd had this discussion a few times, I thought > about why there might be a split in opinion. Perhaps the reason for > dismissing the idea of forums, is to make discussion less accessible > to the 'average joe' - who isn't interested in pursuing communication > through a mailing list. Gosh, I hope this just is not true! it sounds like you think some people want the mailing list just for the geeks and keep the noobs etc out of it. That goes against the whole ethos of what Ubuntu and especially Ubuntu-UK is all about. My experience is that this list is one of the most helpful, most polite and most patient mailing list I've eve been on. Everyone is welcome to take part from the newbie with the innocent questions to the uber-geek with real techie stuff. No, I think the split in opinion was purely different strokes for different folks. Some are more comfortable with mailing lists and some with forums (or should that be fora?). It's just human nature. If we can set up a forum with a mailing list gateway then that would keep everybody happy. Regards, Tony. P.S., It's good form to quote the message to which you are replying. Another discussion that's been had on several occasions, so I suggest top posting is avoided:-) -- Tony Arnold, IT Security Coordinator, University of Manchester, IT Services Division, Kilburn Building, Oxford Road, Manchester M13 9PL. T: +44 (0)161 275 6093, F: +44 (0)870 136 1004, M: +44 (0)773 330 0039 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED], H: http://www.man.ac.uk/Tony.Arnold -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Ubuntu UK Forums
Chris, Chris Rowson wrote: > I am - I know making the assumption that people prefer forums, but I > think in general this assumption seems to be true. Where mailing lists > are the mainstay of open source and linux communication I think forums > would give the group a higher profile and encourage a far greater > interaction with the community. > > Does anyone else agree or am I alone? Is there any harm in requesting > a UK LoCo forum? This issue has been discussed several times on this list. IIRC, it was about a 50/50 split between forums and mailing lists, although not formal vote was ever taken. I think the answer would be to have both and a gateway between the two so anything on the forums goes to the list and vice versa. I've no idea about the technical feasibility/difficulty of this, but it would keep everybody happy, IMHO. Oh, and welcome to the list! Regards, Tony. -- Tony Arnold, IT Security Coordinator, University of Manchester, IT Services Division, Kilburn Building, Oxford Road, Manchester M13 9PL. T: +44 (0)161 275 6093, F: +44 (0)870 136 1004, M: +44 (0)773 330 0039 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED], H: http://www.man.ac.uk/Tony.Arnold -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UKTeam/
