Re: [ubuntu-uk] new arm notebooks
2009/2/24 Robert McWilliam : > On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 04:07:26AM +, Liam Proven wrote: >> Perhaps I'm doing the Pandora an injustice, but it looked to me like a >> pocket console. Small, relatively low-res screen, not much storage, >> not much expansion, token keyboard, but built-in game controllers: not >> so much a Gameboy, to be fair, as an improved GamePark GP2X or >> something. Nice toy, but of no interest to me. > > The people making it are thinking of it as a console primarily but it > is a general computer that you can do whatever you want with - more > along the lines of a gaming PC than a console in desktop sized things. > > The screen isn't particularly low res: 225 ppi. I'll give you it being > quite small but that's kind of a requirement if you want to put it in > your pocket. > > It's got two SDHC card slots for storage which gives you up to 16GB > each - and you can carry more if you can live with swapping them > (though I think that would be a recipe for me losing them). > > It does have USB for adding extra peripherals, stuff sticking out is > always a bit unwieldy but shouldn't be too bad for using a wireless > dongle or flash drive. Software can be added fairly easilly - this is > one advantage of the game target, they've put a bit of effort into > making packaging and installation really easy (the installation step > is actually removed, things just run from the package). > > Right, I'll stop trying to sell you one now (I'm not actually on > commission...). Ah, OK. On revisiting the specs, I will give you that - much better screen than I realised and rather more "poke". I still don't fancy one, though. I have no real interest in computer games: I play a few hours a year, typically, and the last game to attract my real interest was Doom in 1993. Guitar Hero was fun for a week or so then I got bored. I, like hundreds of millions, don't want a games console. I don't mind if my computer can play games - that might occasionally be useful - but I don't want hardware that is optimised for games, because I don't play games. But if you surf the web, write emails, need to take notes, whatever, you need a keyboard and a screen, and ideally, you want them to be as big as possible. My point about the Psion stands: there's a minimum size of keyboard necessary to be able to type properly on it, not painstakingly enter SMS texts. I need something I can write on for hours on end, quickly, fluidly & without pain. The Psion 3 just about coped. The Psion 5 was brilliant. Smaller would compromise this unacceptably. What Psion did, and so far everyone else except perhaps Sony have been *too stupid to realise*, is that the correct design process is this: [1] Accepting that a keyboard is, thus far, the optimal and *necessary* input device, design one as small as possible while still being possible to touch-type upon. [2] Set the size of this as the basic unit size of your device. [3] In that footprint, fit as big a screen as you can. (I.e., the same size as your keyboard, basically.) [4] Work out how thin you can make it and still include the essential functions and features. [5] Now design a hinge, slider or whatever that allows the device to open and close in a reliable, convenient fashion. Instead, what the designers of the current rash of ARM prototypes did is: [1] Miniaturise a notebook PC a bit more, producing a cramped, crappy keyboard, a tiny mousepad and whatever screen is cheap. [2] Er, hope people buy it. If this notional ARM sub-sub-notebook doesn't fit in a pocket, tough. I don't care. I want it as small as possible and no smaller. There comes a point when miniaturising a computer further compromises its usefulness. There are no end of pocketable gadgets. I've owned multiple examples: Palm, Sharp Zaurus, HTC Universal, Nokia smartphone, Nokia Communicator, SonyEricsson P-series smartphone, /et cetera et cetera ad nauseam/. All are much less use than my poor old Psions were because they are *too small*. The fact that they fit in a pocket makes them useless toys when it comes to *work*. Result: lots of pocket-sized toys that are useless, and miniature notebooks which are also useless. The pocket things bulge with functionality, but have screens and keyboards too small to use; the subnotebooks are too big to pocket, but are crippled, underpowered notebooks which desktop software won't readily fit on and /still/ have crappy keyboards. There is a sweet spot in the middle. It was forgotten 10yr ago. Nobody has yet re-discovered it. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat, Yahoo & Skype: liamproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] new arm notebooks
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 04:07:26AM +, Liam Proven wrote: > Perhaps I'm doing the Pandora an injustice, but it looked to me like a > pocket console. Small, relatively low-res screen, not much storage, > not much expansion, token keyboard, but built-in game controllers: not > so much a Gameboy, to be fair, as an improved GamePark GP2X or > something. Nice toy, but of no interest to me. The people making it are thinking of it as a console primarily but it is a general computer that you can do whatever you want with - more along the lines of a gaming PC than a console in desktop sized things. The screen isn't particularly low res: 225 ppi. I'll give you it being quite small but that's kind of a requirement if you want to put it in your pocket. It's got two SDHC card slots for storage which gives you up to 16GB each - and you can carry more if you can live with swapping them (though I think that would be a recipe for me losing them). It does have USB for adding extra peripherals, stuff sticking out is always a bit unwieldy but shouldn't be too bad for using a wireless dongle or flash drive. Software can be added fairly easilly - this is one advantage of the game target, they've put a bit of effort into making packaging and installation really easy (the installation step is actually removed, things just run from the package). Right, I'll stop trying to sell you one now (I'm not actually on commission...). Robert Robert McWilliamr...@allmail.net www.ormiret.com A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] new arm notebooks
2009/2/24 Matthew Wild : > On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 1:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> 2009/2/23 Robert McWilliam : >>> On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 01:53:19PM +, Liam Proven wrote: The form-factor the ARM netbooks should be aiming for is that of the Psion 5 and 5mx, or a host of broadly-similar Windows-CE powered Handheld PCs, such as the HP Jornada 720, the LG Phenom, the NEC MobilePro and so on. Pocketable computer power. >>> >>> There are some linux devices along those lines. The one I'm currently >>> waiting for: >>> http://openpandora.org/ >> >> I've read of it. Tiny pocket Gameboy thing with an appalling-looking >> keyboard. Doesn't look interesting to me at all. >> >>> ATM I've got a Nokia N810 which isn't a clamshell but is aimed at the >>> same kind of use pattern (and you can get a clamshell case for them). >> >> I have looked at them - interesting gadget, but no PDA functionality >> and a bit small for the Web, I reckoned. >> >> But for me, the big selling point of the Psions was an excellent >> keyboard. Amongst other things, I write for a living, and I wrote many >> thousands of words on my Psions. They paid for themselves many times >> over. Even the Eee doesn't match up. >> > > Aahh, Psions. Brings back memories. I used them for coding, > likewise churning out many, many lines of code. > > But, now just a distant memory. I'm keeping a keen eye on the Pandora. > I'm not sure the keyboard will be so bad, but I'm waiting to hear what > people who receive them say about that. Calling it a "Gameboy" thing > is fairly misleading. It's simply an ARM machine running an embedded > Linux distro (with desktop), with a touchscreen. The only specific > "game" things about it are the 2 control pads above the keyboard, but > I'm quite sure they'll come in handy for scrolling :) > > Only time will tell. It sounds like we're both looking for something > similar, and I have never managed to replace my old Psion. Can't > justify the cost vs. size/weight/battery of the "netbooks" which are > catching on now, which is why I'm hesitant to jump for one of those. I > prefer something I can fit in my pocket, yet still type on. Perhaps I'm doing the Pandora an injustice, but it looked to me like a pocket console. Small, relatively low-res screen, not much storage, not much expansion, token keyboard, but built-in game controllers: not so much a Gameboy, to be fair, as an improved GamePark GP2X or something. Nice toy, but of no interest to me. But it sounds to me like you and I, like tens - maybe hundreds - of thousands of other people, really just badly want a modern Psion 5. Same case & keyboard, fast modern ARM chip, OLPC XO-1 type screen, USB instead of a serial link, and say a couple of SD slots instead of the single CF slot and I'd be over the moon. With SDIO one could add Bluetooth or Wifi or both if one needed it. Ideally, it would have B/T, Wifi and a UMTS SIM slot onboard, but I fear that these would all bloat the price and murder the battery life... But hey, the Qtek 9000 (AKA HTC Universal AKA O2 xda Exec, Orange SPV M5000, Dopod 900, T-Mobile MDA Pro, I-mate JasJar, Vodafone v1640, Vodafone VPA IV, E-Plus PDA IV, etc.) managed all those and with an extended battery it still had a battery life of 2-3 days or more. Also, to be honest, I preferred EPOC to Linux, but I am not so taken with Symbian, so Linux now would make more sense... -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat, Yahoo & Skype: liamproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] new arm notebooks
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 1:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > 2009/2/23 Robert McWilliam : >> On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 01:53:19PM +, Liam Proven wrote: >>> The form-factor the ARM netbooks should be aiming for is that of the >>> Psion 5 and 5mx, or a host of broadly-similar Windows-CE powered >>> Handheld PCs, such as the HP Jornada 720, the LG Phenom, the NEC >>> MobilePro and so on. Pocketable computer power. >> >> There are some linux devices along those lines. The one I'm currently >> waiting for: >> http://openpandora.org/ > > I've read of it. Tiny pocket Gameboy thing with an appalling-looking > keyboard. Doesn't look interesting to me at all. > >> ATM I've got a Nokia N810 which isn't a clamshell but is aimed at the >> same kind of use pattern (and you can get a clamshell case for them). > > I have looked at them - interesting gadget, but no PDA functionality > and a bit small for the Web, I reckoned. > > But for me, the big selling point of the Psions was an excellent > keyboard. Amongst other things, I write for a living, and I wrote many > thousands of words on my Psions. They paid for themselves many times > over. Even the Eee doesn't match up. > Aahh, Psions. Brings back memories. I used them for coding, likewise churning out many, many lines of code. But, now just a distant memory. I'm keeping a keen eye on the Pandora. I'm not sure the keyboard will be so bad, but I'm waiting to hear what people who receive them say about that. Calling it a "Gameboy" thing is fairly misleading. It's simply an ARM machine running an embedded Linux distro (with desktop), with a touchscreen. The only specific "game" things about it are the 2 control pads above the keyboard, but I'm quite sure they'll come in handy for scrolling :) Only time will tell. It sounds like we're both looking for something similar, and I have never managed to replace my old Psion. Can't justify the cost vs. size/weight/battery of the "netbooks" which are catching on now, which is why I'm hesitant to jump for one of those. I prefer something I can fit in my pocket, yet still type on. Matthew. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] new arm notebooks
2009/2/23 Robert McWilliam : > On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 01:53:19PM +, Liam Proven wrote: >> The form-factor the ARM netbooks should be aiming for is that of the >> Psion 5 and 5mx, or a host of broadly-similar Windows-CE powered >> Handheld PCs, such as the HP Jornada 720, the LG Phenom, the NEC >> MobilePro and so on. Pocketable computer power. > > There are some linux devices along those lines. The one I'm currently > waiting for: > http://openpandora.org/ I've read of it. Tiny pocket Gameboy thing with an appalling-looking keyboard. Doesn't look interesting to me at all. > ATM I've got a Nokia N810 which isn't a clamshell but is aimed at the > same kind of use pattern (and you can get a clamshell case for them). I have looked at them - interesting gadget, but no PDA functionality and a bit small for the Web, I reckoned. But for me, the big selling point of the Psions was an excellent keyboard. Amongst other things, I write for a living, and I wrote many thousands of words on my Psions. They paid for themselves many times over. Even the Eee doesn't match up. A mini-notebook with a decent-res transreflective screen - even the old 7" Eee 800*480 would do, but 1024x480 would be fine; the OLPC's 1200x900 would be fantastic, or a scaled-down version thereof - and a good keyboard and I'd be delighted. But no keyboard, or a keypad one can't can't type properly on - no deal! -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat, Yahoo & Skype: liamproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] new arm notebooks
On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 01:53:19PM +, Liam Proven wrote: > The form-factor the ARM netbooks should be aiming for is that of the > Psion 5 and 5mx, or a host of broadly-similar Windows-CE powered > Handheld PCs, such as the HP Jornada 720, the LG Phenom, the NEC > MobilePro and so on. Pocketable computer power. There are some linux devices along those lines. The one I'm currently waiting for: http://openpandora.org/ ATM I've got a Nokia N810 which isn't a clamshell but is aimed at the same kind of use pattern (and you can get a clamshell case for them). Robert Robert McWilliam r...@allmail.netwww.ormiret.com 31 Octal == 25 Decimal, thus 31 Oct == 25 Dec, thus Halloween == Christmas -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] new arm notebooks
Liam Proven wrote: > 2009/2/21 Andrew Oakley : >> Paul Sutton wrote: >>> http://www.notebooks.com/2009/01/07/new-generation-of-netbooks-199-and-299-eight-hour-battery-sexy-design/ >> Interesting, but the Intel Atom x86-based Asus Eee 901 can already >> provide 8 hours of battery life. I've got one, and it really does. > > Only with an extended battery, driving up both the price and weight. > The standard battery in the cheap ones gives about 2-3h, on a par with > most of the cheap subnotebooks. The "standard" battery is 5800ma. You CAN get 5-6 hours if the screen isn't too bright and you don't try to run a HSDPA dongle/Bluetooth/Wifi > >> Whilst I know Canonical are producing an ARM netbook distro of Ubuntu, >> it'll be interesting to see whether the other things that we >> all-too-often rely on, such as Adobe Flash, will be compiled for ARM. >> Trying to sell a netbook to the hip'n'trendy young professional market, >> that doesn't play Youtube, will be a difficult venture. > > Er, did you RTFA? They make a point of mentioning this in the piece. > -- Life is too short. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] new arm notebooks
2009/2/20 Paul Sutton : > > this was posted to the OU linux conference > > http://www.notebooks.com/2009/01/07/new-generation-of-netbooks-199-and-299-eight-hour-battery-sexy-design/ > > > Paul Sutton > www.zleap.net > Support Open and ISO standard file formats ISO 26300 odf > http://www.odfalliance.org > Next Linux User Group meet : March 7th : 3pm, Shoreline Cafe Paignton For my money, they're too big. If I was toting an A5 subnotebook around, I'd rather it have some genuine CPU power (which not only means CPU speed, it means an FPU, SIMD instructions and so on) and binary compatibility with mass-market software. But they're missing several tricks. Sony's new Vaio P Atom-powered subnotebook shows a better form factor: http://i.gizmodo.com/5125930/sony-vaio-p-super-dont+call+it+a+netbook-hands-on The keyboard needs to be wide to be usable. Front-to-back depth is relatively unimportant, a waste of space. Look at all the blank fascia on either side of the trackpad - that's wastage. So, give it a Trackpoint (a "nipple" or Centrally-Located Input Tool) and/or a touchscreen, make the screen wide in letterbox-format and keep the size, thickness and weight down. The Vaoi P is £800, though. The form-factor the ARM netbooks should be aiming for is that of the Psion 5 and 5mx, or a host of broadly-similar Windows-CE powered Handheld PCs, such as the HP Jornada 720, the LG Phenom, the NEC MobilePro and so on. Pocketable computer power. The Intel Atom owns the subnotebook space and the VIA Nano is coming up close behind. Both trounce ARM on processor power. So ARM should be going for a narrower niche - the pocketable, cold-running computer, not an underpowered miniature notebook. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat, Yahoo & Skype: liamproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] new arm notebooks
2009/2/21 Andrew Oakley : > Paul Sutton wrote: >> http://www.notebooks.com/2009/01/07/new-generation-of-netbooks-199-and-299-eight-hour-battery-sexy-design/ > > Interesting, but the Intel Atom x86-based Asus Eee 901 can already > provide 8 hours of battery life. I've got one, and it really does. Only with an extended battery, driving up both the price and weight. The standard battery in the cheap ones gives about 2-3h, on a par with most of the cheap subnotebooks. > Whilst I know Canonical are producing an ARM netbook distro of Ubuntu, > it'll be interesting to see whether the other things that we > all-too-often rely on, such as Adobe Flash, will be compiled for ARM. > Trying to sell a netbook to the hip'n'trendy young professional market, > that doesn't play Youtube, will be a difficult venture. Er, did you RTFA? They make a point of mentioning this in the piece. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat, Yahoo & Skype: liamproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] new arm notebooks
Paul Sutton wrote: > http://www.notebooks.com/2009/01/07/new-generation-of-netbooks-199-and-299-eight-hour-battery-sexy-design/ Interesting, but the Intel Atom x86-based Asus Eee 901 can already provide 8 hours of battery life. I've got one, and it really does. Whilst I know Canonical are producing an ARM netbook distro of Ubuntu, it'll be interesting to see whether the other things that we all-too-often rely on, such as Adobe Flash, will be compiled for ARM. Trying to sell a netbook to the hip'n'trendy young professional market, that doesn't play Youtube, will be a difficult venture. -- Andrew Oakley -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] new arm notebooks
I think I will wait for the leg notebooks :-) David King Paul Sutton wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 this was posted to the OU linux conference http://www.notebooks.com/2009/01/07/new-generation-of-netbooks-199-and-299-eight-hour-battery-sexy-design/ Paul Sutton www.zleap.net Support Open and ISO standard file formats ISO 26300 odf http://www.odfalliance.org Next Linux User Group meet : March 7th : 3pm, Shoreline Cafe Paignton -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkme9asACgkQaggq1k2FJq142ACeOtKk0NUwd7Xl45UKj5DDIGup D2EAn1/VaYTkJsbnVDjtmNkdEBPwDy3l =T2t1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
