[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1013881]
(In reply to comment #76) Compose is not appropriate for basic symbols you need to write pretty much any correct sentence in the target language. And adding a specific input method for one symbol just because some people can't live with the modifier ISO chose for level 5 is disproportionnate. Woow, calm down guys. What's disproportionate is the reaction here! *before* the change this report introduced, and which many of us are trying to get reverted, *both* nbsp and nbspc were easily available: nbsp AltGr+Shift+Space nbspc Ctrl+Shift+Space Reverting the change this report introduced would get this behavior. Please understand we just want to get nbspc moved back where it *was* (or for me, anywhere on a 1-4 level), not removed or anything. Also, realize that currently there is only *one* Level5-specific symbol, and that's nbspc, so we basically have a key only for that. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xkeyboard-config in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1013881 Title: Right-Ctrl key broken on French OSS keyboard To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/xkeyboard-config/+bug/1013881/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 221112]
(In reply to comment #76) Compose is not appropriate for basic symbols you need to write pretty much any correct sentence in the target language. And adding a specific input method for one symbol just because some people can't live with the modifier ISO chose for level 5 is disproportionnate. Woow, calm down guys. What's disproportionate is the reaction here! *before* the change this report introduced, and which many of us are trying to get reverted, *both* nbsp and nbspc were easily available: nbsp AltGr+Shift+Space nbspc Ctrl+Shift+Space Reverting the change this report introduced would get this behavior. Please understand we just want to get nbspc moved back where it *was* (or for me, anywhere on a 1-4 level), not removed or anything. Also, realize that currently there is only *one* Level5-specific symbol, and that's nbspc, so we basically have a key only for that. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xkeyboard-config in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/221112 Title: Can't use space bar in search bar when using french alternative keyboard To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/libgnomekbd/+bug/221112/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1013881]
(In reply to comment #69) (In reply to comment #66) Regarding the voting, is there generic popular Linux-oriented site in France? Like slashdot.org or smth... There is a popular Linux-oriented site in France (linuxfr.org) and the final ajustments of this layout were done after discussion on this site. But this has the same pitfall as any volunteered survey, it isn't any kind of representative. I for example myself barely ever read a linuxfr article, and wouldn't participate or even see a survey there. That doesn't mean I'm not a French fr/oss user :) Also note that people suffering from the situations are a lot more likely to do something and speak their mind than people perfectly happy with the situation. So probably discussing a problem is likely to only include opinion from people not happy with the current state, and people closely involved. I realise there is a vocal minority that does not like some of those choices but Just to be fair, I see *no one* else here arguing towards keeping right Ctrl Level5 modifier -- but sure, as I state above, people happy with it won't see the discussion or care, so it may be biased. 1. the other alternatives used in the ancestors of this layout generated a lot more hate mail If it broke people's apps (or apps broke with it, I don't care who's fault it is), I surely can understand people being angry. But similarly, since the change from this report broke people's right Ctrl key, I can understand they get angry. 2. because I knew there was no choice everyone would like spacebar layout is modular (and I'm the person who modularized it as part of the creation of this layout). People can choose the previous behaviour if they want and a few other possibilities were added as part of the modularization And we thank you for your work. But I don't think it's realistic to think everyone can choose the previous behavior if it means editing the keymap. I already said it, but it took me quite some time to find what caused my right Ctrl key to no longer work and fix it, and I think it's fair to consider myself a quite advanced user. If really reverting the addition of Level5 is not an option (but see below), please add an alternative layout. 3. so far no one proposed any better option appart from removing symbols which are necessary to write proper French (arguably proper French is not the same as C code). The change in this particular report did not add or remove any symbol, it only moved one to Level5 because some apps couldn't handle CtrlSpace with this layout. And as I said earlier, most of the incriminated apps (at least that I know of) don't even use CtrlSpace anymore, rendering the change moot for them. And even if we wanted to please those apps, we mayb be able to without adding a new modifier (Level5) and a key for it -- again, see (comment #46). Also note that event though I admittedly don't use short-nbsp (I'm afraid I don't know the rules where this one should be used in French typography), I'm an heavy user of nbsp everywhere French typography tells me to do it. So no, I don't want to remove anything, don't worry -- but I'd like my right Ctrl key back :) It's a lot easier to clamor for removal of the bits you do not use than to try to design a general-purpose solution without cutting corners It sure is, but although my nearly non-existent knowledge of keymaps may make my message somewhat irrelevant (e.g. I don't know how to apply my ideas), I investigated possible solutions in comment #46 -- although no one followed up on those. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xkeyboard-config in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1013881 Title: Right-Ctrl key broken on French OSS keyboard To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/xkeyboard-config/+bug/1013881/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 221112]
(In reply to comment #69) (In reply to comment #66) Regarding the voting, is there generic popular Linux-oriented site in France? Like slashdot.org or smth... There is a popular Linux-oriented site in France (linuxfr.org) and the final ajustments of this layout were done after discussion on this site. But this has the same pitfall as any volunteered survey, it isn't any kind of representative. I for example myself barely ever read a linuxfr article, and wouldn't participate or even see a survey there. That doesn't mean I'm not a French fr/oss user :) Also note that people suffering from the situations are a lot more likely to do something and speak their mind than people perfectly happy with the situation. So probably discussing a problem is likely to only include opinion from people not happy with the current state, and people closely involved. I realise there is a vocal minority that does not like some of those choices but Just to be fair, I see *no one* else here arguing towards keeping right Ctrl Level5 modifier -- but sure, as I state above, people happy with it won't see the discussion or care, so it may be biased. 1. the other alternatives used in the ancestors of this layout generated a lot more hate mail If it broke people's apps (or apps broke with it, I don't care who's fault it is), I surely can understand people being angry. But similarly, since the change from this report broke people's right Ctrl key, I can understand they get angry. 2. because I knew there was no choice everyone would like spacebar layout is modular (and I'm the person who modularized it as part of the creation of this layout). People can choose the previous behaviour if they want and a few other possibilities were added as part of the modularization And we thank you for your work. But I don't think it's realistic to think everyone can choose the previous behavior if it means editing the keymap. I already said it, but it took me quite some time to find what caused my right Ctrl key to no longer work and fix it, and I think it's fair to consider myself a quite advanced user. If really reverting the addition of Level5 is not an option (but see below), please add an alternative layout. 3. so far no one proposed any better option appart from removing symbols which are necessary to write proper French (arguably proper French is not the same as C code). The change in this particular report did not add or remove any symbol, it only moved one to Level5 because some apps couldn't handle CtrlSpace with this layout. And as I said earlier, most of the incriminated apps (at least that I know of) don't even use CtrlSpace anymore, rendering the change moot for them. And even if we wanted to please those apps, we mayb be able to without adding a new modifier (Level5) and a key for it -- again, see (comment #46). Also note that event though I admittedly don't use short-nbsp (I'm afraid I don't know the rules where this one should be used in French typography), I'm an heavy user of nbsp everywhere French typography tells me to do it. So no, I don't want to remove anything, don't worry -- but I'd like my right Ctrl key back :) It's a lot easier to clamor for removal of the bits you do not use than to try to design a general-purpose solution without cutting corners It sure is, but although my nearly non-existent knowledge of keymaps may make my message somewhat irrelevant (e.g. I don't know how to apply my ideas), I investigated possible solutions in comment #46 -- although no one followed up on those. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xkeyboard-config in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/221112 Title: Can't use space bar in search bar when using french alternative keyboard To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/libgnomekbd/+bug/221112/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1013881]
(In reply to comment #72) The old layout was never removed and kept its historical name (fr latin9) No, we are speaking here of fr/oss, but before it got right Ctrl as level5 modifier (what this bug end up changing). I bet everyone complaining here was very happy with fr/oss before this Level5 modifier -- at least I was, this map has so everything useful (and more) on handy locations :) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xkeyboard-config in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1013881 Title: Right-Ctrl key broken on French OSS keyboard To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/xkeyboard-config/+bug/1013881/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 221112]
(In reply to comment #72) The old layout was never removed and kept its historical name (fr latin9) No, we are speaking here of fr/oss, but before it got right Ctrl as level5 modifier (what this bug end up changing). I bet everyone complaining here was very happy with fr/oss before this Level5 modifier -- at least I was, this map has so everything useful (and more) on handy locations :) -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xkeyboard-config in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/221112 Title: Can't use space bar in search bar when using french alternative keyboard To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/libgnomekbd/+bug/221112/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1013881]
(In reply to comment #50) Could someone create poll on some french(belgian) web site, linux-oriented. Which behavior would be preferable? Is this even necessary? I mean, the change wasn't made in the first place because an user wasn't happy with the state, but because some apps couldn't handle it. And nowadays, at least some of those apps (Rhythmbox, Totem, …) have been fixed or altered in a way they do not suffer from it anymore, actually mostly nullifying the original point. Also, what a poll would do? This looks like a pretty subtle problem to me, and an uneducated user couldn't really tell. As far as they are concerned, I would think they just want everything working. Even me, if you ask I would say (as in my previous reply) just fix the XLookupString while keeping the original mapping, since IIUC it would fix everybody's issue. But I have no real clue whether it's a pertinent answer or not. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xkeyboard-config in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1013881 Title: Right-Ctrl key broken on French OSS keyboard To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/xkeyboard-config/+bug/1013881/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 221112]
(In reply to comment #50) Could someone create poll on some french(belgian) web site, linux-oriented. Which behavior would be preferable? Is this even necessary? I mean, the change wasn't made in the first place because an user wasn't happy with the state, but because some apps couldn't handle it. And nowadays, at least some of those apps (Rhythmbox, Totem, …) have been fixed or altered in a way they do not suffer from it anymore, actually mostly nullifying the original point. Also, what a poll would do? This looks like a pretty subtle problem to me, and an uneducated user couldn't really tell. As far as they are concerned, I would think they just want everything working. Even me, if you ask I would say (as in my previous reply) just fix the XLookupString while keeping the original mapping, since IIUC it would fix everybody's issue. But I have no real clue whether it's a pertinent answer or not. -- You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu-X, which is subscribed to xkeyboard-config in Ubuntu. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/221112 Title: Can't use space bar in search bar when using french alternative keyboard To manage notifications about this bug go to: https://bugs.launchpad.net/libgnomekbd/+bug/221112/+subscriptions ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat Post to : ubuntu-x-swat@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 221112]
(In reply to comment #45) (In reply to comment #44) Until a solution is to be found, could 518c769d be reverted for now? Breaking the very standard behavior of right control It does not break the very standard behavior of right control any more than altrgr breaks the very standard behavior of right alt For me it does. My keyboard has an Alt Gr label on the AltR key, so it indeed is expected to behave differently from Alt_L, but my ControlR key is labeled as Ctrl, just like the ControlL key. And all other keyboards and OSes I ever used did handle ControlR the same as ControlL, as far as I was concerned as a user. Also, I find it more generically problematic to change the behavior of a common key on a widely used keymap. For example the change annoyed me for about a month before I took the time to debug this and edit my keymap -- and I can't imagine what a lambda user could do but learn to deal with it. Also, what is Level5 used for? IIUC, currently nothing but short-nbsp (or at least that I can find, which is practically the same from a user POV), turning Ctrl_R into a virtually useless key. So, what can we do? First, please note, for what is worth, that both Rhythmbox and Totem, which were cited as the applications having a problem with the previous state of things, are not affected anymore. Rhythmbox don't use Control+Space as a shortcut anymore, and Totem seem to react to any space keysym, no matter the modifiers. So, unless there actually are other applications using Control+Space and suffering of the issue (Code::Blocks?), the problem does not even exist anymore. Also, maybe I just don't know how one is supposed to process the events, but those bugs look like an application or toolkit issue to me, is it? Then, practical changes. Before the change, Space behaved like this: Shift* | Control* | Level3 || keysym| XLookupString ---||-- | ||| 0x20 | 20 X | ||| 0x20 | 20 | X||| 0x20 | 20 | | X || 0x20 | 20 X | X||| 0x100202f | e2 80 af X | | X || 0xa0 | c2 a0 | X| X || NoSymbol | X | X| X || NoSymbol | And now we have: Shift* | ControlL | Level3 | Level5 || keysym| XLookupString ||- | |||| 0x20 | 20 X | |||| 0x20 | 20 | X|||| 0x20 | 00 | | X ||| 0x20 | 20 | || X || 0x20 | 20 X | X|||| 0x20 | 00 X | | X ||| 0xa0 | c2 a0 X | || X || 0x100202f | e2 80 af | X| X ||| 0x20 | 00 | X|| X || 0x20 | 00 | | X | X || NoSymbol | X | X| X ||| 0xa0 | (empty) X | X|| X || | (no event on Xev???) X | | X | X || NoSymbol | X | X| X | X || | (no event on Xev???) So. IIUC, the problem is having naked Space emit the same XLookupString that Control+Space, right? The new behavior is emitting lookup string 00 with modifier Control, so I guess this is the fix. So, what about simply changing the original map to have a different lookup string on Control? Like this: Shift* | Control* | Level3 || keysym| XLookupString ---||-- | ||| 0x20 | 20 X | ||| 0x20 | 20 | X||| 0x20 | 00 | | X || 0x20 | 20 X | X||| 0x100202f | e2 80 af X | | X || 0xa0 | c2 a0 | X| X || NoSymbol | X | X| X || NoSymbol | Or, if we don't want to have anything useful using Control, what about moving 0x100202f to Level3? Like this: Shift* | Control* | Level3 || keysym| XLookupString ---||-- | ||| 0x20 | 20 X | ||| 0x20 | 20 | X||| 0x20 | 00 | | X || 0x100202f | e2 80 af X | X||| 0x20 | 00 X | | X || 0xa0 | c2 a0 | X| X || NoSymbol | X | X| X || NoSymbol | Alternatively, the mapping of ControlR to Level5 could be an option (or a slightly different variant, whatever's better). Anything that could prevent me from manually editing my map to have ControlR again would be totally great. -- You received
[Ubuntu-x-swat] [Bug 1013881]
(In reply to comment #45) (In reply to comment #44) Until a solution is to be found, could 518c769d be reverted for now? Breaking the very standard behavior of right control It does not break the very standard behavior of right control any more than altrgr breaks the very standard behavior of right alt For me it does. My keyboard has an Alt Gr label on the AltR key, so it indeed is expected to behave differently from Alt_L, but my ControlR key is labeled as Ctrl, just like the ControlL key. And all other keyboards and OSes I ever used did handle ControlR the same as ControlL, as far as I was concerned as a user. Also, I find it more generically problematic to change the behavior of a common key on a widely used keymap. For example the change annoyed me for about a month before I took the time to debug this and edit my keymap -- and I can't imagine what a lambda user could do but learn to deal with it. Also, what is Level5 used for? IIUC, currently nothing but short-nbsp (or at least that I can find, which is practically the same from a user POV), turning Ctrl_R into a virtually useless key. So, what can we do? First, please note, for what is worth, that both Rhythmbox and Totem, which were cited as the applications having a problem with the previous state of things, are not affected anymore. Rhythmbox don't use Control+Space as a shortcut anymore, and Totem seem to react to any space keysym, no matter the modifiers. So, unless there actually are other applications using Control+Space and suffering of the issue (Code::Blocks?), the problem does not even exist anymore. Also, maybe I just don't know how one is supposed to process the events, but those bugs look like an application or toolkit issue to me, is it? Then, practical changes. Before the change, Space behaved like this: Shift* | Control* | Level3 || keysym| XLookupString ---||-- | ||| 0x20 | 20 X | ||| 0x20 | 20 | X||| 0x20 | 20 | | X || 0x20 | 20 X | X||| 0x100202f | e2 80 af X | | X || 0xa0 | c2 a0 | X| X || NoSymbol | X | X| X || NoSymbol | And now we have: Shift* | ControlL | Level3 | Level5 || keysym| XLookupString ||- | |||| 0x20 | 20 X | |||| 0x20 | 20 | X|||| 0x20 | 00 | | X ||| 0x20 | 20 | || X || 0x20 | 20 X | X|||| 0x20 | 00 X | | X ||| 0xa0 | c2 a0 X | || X || 0x100202f | e2 80 af | X| X ||| 0x20 | 00 | X|| X || 0x20 | 00 | | X | X || NoSymbol | X | X| X ||| 0xa0 | (empty) X | X|| X || | (no event on Xev???) X | | X | X || NoSymbol | X | X| X | X || | (no event on Xev???) So. IIUC, the problem is having naked Space emit the same XLookupString that Control+Space, right? The new behavior is emitting lookup string 00 with modifier Control, so I guess this is the fix. So, what about simply changing the original map to have a different lookup string on Control? Like this: Shift* | Control* | Level3 || keysym| XLookupString ---||-- | ||| 0x20 | 20 X | ||| 0x20 | 20 | X||| 0x20 | 00 | | X || 0x20 | 20 X | X||| 0x100202f | e2 80 af X | | X || 0xa0 | c2 a0 | X| X || NoSymbol | X | X| X || NoSymbol | Or, if we don't want to have anything useful using Control, what about moving 0x100202f to Level3? Like this: Shift* | Control* | Level3 || keysym| XLookupString ---||-- | ||| 0x20 | 20 X | ||| 0x20 | 20 | X||| 0x20 | 00 | | X || 0x100202f | e2 80 af X | X||| 0x20 | 00 X | | X || 0xa0 | c2 a0 | X| X || NoSymbol | X | X| X || NoSymbol | Alternatively, the mapping of ControlR to Level5 could be an option (or a slightly different variant, whatever's better). Anything that could prevent me from manually editing my map to have ControlR again would be totally great. -- You received
