RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. Rodriguez
Mr. Lupa-Lasaga, your so called humanist ideology is to say the list outrageous. How can you equate negligence, corruption and/or incompetence in the execution of a war to genocide. You should be the only person in the whole wide world who holds such a deameaning outlook on the term genocide. So to your reasoning America and Britain are commiting genocide in Iraq, because they are also finding it difficult puting down a rag-tag band of insurgents, as a result, thousands of Iraqi civilians are loosing there lives. Again according to your reasoning Britain was guilty of genocide in northern Island, because again the almighty royal British army could not defeat a rag-tag band of IRA insurgents and as a result thousands of innocent people died. Of course to you Isreal is guilty of genocide as wellSpain is guilty of genocide because they haven't been able to silence the Basque seperates as a result of that conflict, thousands have died in that region...Russia in Chechniya etc. Vukoni, it seems your self-styled, watered down descritption of genocide has been carefully crafted to fit the the Ugandan situation. ...about Father Rodriguez, i am challenging you since you say you are a humanist to go to Iraq and once you are there secretly (without the knowledge) of the occupying powers establish contact with the insurgents (including those who did the beheading), in the name of peace, now if you are caught in the process, by the occupying powers see whether you won't be arrested and/or kicked out of the country. I don't give a damn who the Father is or what goodwill he has, the fact of the matter is that he has no power to carry out any activities with the LRA terrorists without the knowledge of the government of Uganda. You even contradict yourself when you say on one hand that the government of Uganda is responsible for the security of it's citizens (which no one disagrees with) and then you on the other hand support someone (a foreigner for that matter) going behind the government of Uganda and establishing contacts with a terrorist group. Now any government which allows foreigners (whoever they maybe) to go around making contacts with known terrorist without the government knowing about it, should obviously be guilty of dereliction of it's duty of protecting it's citizens. Besides are you saying that ARPI cannot negotiate peace without Father Rodriguez?so once the bazungu fathers live the ranks of the ARPI, peaceful resolutions are impossible.only bazungu fathers have so much love for the people of Acholi to the point of matyrdomgive me a break. Where were all the bazungu fathers when tutsis were being massacred in Rwanda?, that was a great chance opportunity for genuine matyrdom.maybe they are now suffering from guilty conscincethey are now seeking redemption...that is there own bussiness, we Ugandans should learn to solve our own problems. People like father Rodriguez only complicate matters..how can you attempt to force peace...that's nonsense. Mr. Lupa-Lasaga you need to appreciate that there are two sides to a negotiation. You surely don't expect the government to negotiate with itselfwhat do you expect government to do in the interim?...fold her arms and watch the killers kill in the name of government being peaceful?. Obviously government needs to do more to protect her citizens in the trouble areas, but let's be sincere, no amount of protection will be perfect unless the LRA is completely stopped either through force, sincerely peaceful negotiations or combination or both. It doesn't help when the rebels are sent conflicting messages from the other sidelike some on this forum openly acting as cheer leaders for the terrorists, justifying there murderous activities, urging them on and then turning around advocating peace talks. The best remedy for stoping this conflict is for all stakeholders in the Ugandan body politic coming out with one voice of condemnation of the terrorists and then putting politics aside and working with government to stop the terrorists. NO SOLUTION WILL WORK WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT BEING A PART OF IT. It doesn't matter what option is taken as long as it is unanimously accepted by all. The problem in Uganda (and indeed in Africa) is the notion that once you are in opposition you should COMPLETELY have nothing to do with the government of the day...you should NEVER EVER EVER agree or work with them...that perception is wrong. There are times when politics needs to be put aside for the sake of the nation or national interest and i think the northern tragedy is one of those times. Finally you characterize my immediate former posting as verbiage but you will accept that it is factual verbiage. Cheers. From: Vukoni Lupa-Lasaga [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. Rodriguez Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 19:08:53 -0500
RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. Rodriguez
Bwana Musaazi, Once again, with so much verbiage you have deftly sidestepped the real issues. But I'll revisit them anyway. 1. The government of Uganda has the responsibility of protecting the property and lives of all Ugandans from both internal and external threats. By commission and omission, Yoweri Museveni's administration has done a terrible job of it in Acholiland. This fact isn't altered, regardless of whether there is local support for the LRA or not and whether Sudan or any other foreign country is supporting the LRA or not. All your arguments in this regard amount to little more than lame excuses. 2. It is curious that to you, southern elements have to be present in the LRA for us to characterize the outcome of the armed conflict in Acholiland as genocidal. I beg to differ. Incompetence, corruption, and dereliction of duty by UPDF officers (including Yoweri Museveni) and rank and file largely accounts for the continued existence of Joseph Kony (who by all reckoning is a psychopath with no credible political agenda). Nearly every one of the commanding officers posted to Gulu, Kitgum, and Lira, to help fight armed rebellion, has profiteered from the war rather than stop it. This includes Salim Saleh, Tinyefuza, and Wasswa. Follow the money, if you think I'm lying or playing politics, as you cheaply shot. 3. The Yoweri Museveni administration has two real junctures for ending the suffering in Acholi. Either to defeat the LRA militarily (which it has failed) or to pursue less violent options. 4. You still haven't quoted for me any Ugandan law that penalizes an attempt to broker peace. If such laws exist, I have already said that we should have it repealed. Contrary to your assertion, I think all Ugandans and friends of Uganda are bound by duty, conscience, and human decency to contribute toward seeking an end to the suffering of more than one million Ugandans, whose tragic fate is a reflection of monumental failure of government. For state functionaries and toadies to hide behind real or imagined laws in an attempt to monopolize genocidal incompetence is mind-boggling. 5. One doesn't have to have a political agenda to point these things out. Personally, I carry water for no one. I speak as a journalist and concerned Ugandan, African, and humanist. Many people, including myself, have condemned and will continue to condemn the savagery of Joseph Kony and the LRA. We have also condemned and will continue to condemn criminal negligence by civilians and soldiers in the Museveni administration that have directly or indirectly led to unnecessary loss of life in northern Uganda and elsewhere in the course of war. Are there those who try to make political hay out of Museveni's and the UPDF's abject failure to defeat a ragtag group of brigands? You bet. That's in the nature of politics. I recognize it although I don't play it. Does that fact (i.e. political hay-making) eliminate the necessity to speak out? Of course not. 6. All this noise Movement apologists and propagandists make about Fr. Rodriguez is just a diversion. Somebody, Ugandan or not, has to put their life on the line, to do the risky job of pursuing alternatives to the government's failed approach. This job is truly dangerous and I'm sure those who undertake the role of mediators are well aware that they will meet hostility from both Kony/LRA and UPDF/Museveni, who share the unsavory reputation of treachery in the face of peace. vukoni This service is hosted on the Infocom network http://www.infocom.co.ug
RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. Rodriguez
between you and the rebels...does that make any sense? Vukoni common sense will tell you that, that is unlawful behaviour. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. Rodriguez Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:04:29 -0700 _ Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ---BeginMessage--- My dear Musaazi, Obviously, you need to re-read carefully your earlier contributions on this topic. They'redripping with innuendos and inferences about who you think is really to blame for thewar that has made Acholiland and its immediate neighborhood a living hell for all its inhabitantsand otherswithin striking distance. I can't really help you to get a grip on the ramifications of yourpronouncements on the crisis in northern Uganda. But I can provide clues. So answer the following questions for yourself. 1. Why is it that18 years and counting, UPDF has failed to defeat the insurgents in northern Uganda? 2. Who is supporting the LRA? It is notpracticing tribalismto mentionthat nearly a millionAcholi people are the primary victims of the LRA. That's a fact. But I understand where you're coming from. To hide a crime that by commission or ommission has genocidal implications, you mustemployeuphemisms and geographical references that don't betray the identity of the victims. Also, to be a monkey-on-the-string for the NRM, you mustpossessthe curious mentality that can supportodiouslaws aimed at abolishing independent initiatives that fault or counterthe "correct line." I see you mention UPC, the Movement's otherbogeyman, in your latest posting. Boy, do you love innuendos! For the record, I have never been and never will be a member of UPC. A party I despise for its excesses, UPCowes its resurrection to ex-member Yoweri Museveni's compulsive-obsessive hatred of Dr. Milton Apollo Obote. You say: "A southern member of perliament has even suggested bringing children in IDPCs to the south to continue there schooling until the crisis ends, all at government's cost." -- So, each child born in Acholiland will have to be moved to another part of Uganda. How about the parents? Older siblings? Other relatives? Mon ami, relocation isas effective astreatingcancer with vaseline. What's needed isending the war that the NRM/UPDFhas failed to. If a Rodriguez or an Odama can helpmove the peace process forward, why invokethe lawor chicanery to prolong the status quo? Or is there a hidden agenda to let the LRA kill off the Acholi and whomever else falls in their hands? vukoni PS. BTW, could you please quote the law(s) thatcrimininalizenongovernmental initiatives for peace? I think we need toremove it/them from the books. Thanks. =features/featuredemail This service is hosted on the Infocom network http://www.infocom.co.ug ---End Message---
RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. Rodriguez
My dear Musaazi, In so many words, you've sadly said nothingnew or illuminating, beyondthe claptrap of the "correct line" we've been hearing for the last 18 years.If the Museveni administration weregenuinelyinterested in peace in northern Uganda, we wouldn't be shedding tears about the victims of Kony's savagery. Unlike you, I see a lot of parallels between what happened in West Nile and the ongoing tragedy in Acholi. The Acholi and Ma'di have been neighbors for centuries. I have lived in both communities in their hour of need and I can tell with a reasonable degree of authority thatthe Acholi people are neither savages nor suicidal to want this war to continue until all of them are wiped off the face of the earth. Unfortunately, the subtext of the string of excuses from the NRM aparatchik and statist creatures like yourself is that the victims areto blame for what's happening to them. As for Fr. Rodriguez, would you have reacted differently to what he did if he were Ugandan? vukoni PS. BTW, I don't believe that a peace maker needs the permission of a government that has clearly failed to protect its citizens and done its best to thwart any serious attempts to end the atrocities in Acholi. Ask Betty Bigombe what happened when Museveni undercut her efforts to bring the LRA out of the bushes. Ask the two Acholi elders who were murdered by suspected state agents when they seemed to be making some headway in their mediation efforts. No, for some reason that psycho-analysts might one dayhelp us unravel, Museveni has sabotaged every genuine effort to end the suffering of the people in Acholi. Original Message Subject: RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. RodriguezFrom: "emmanuel musaazi" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Wed, May 12, 2004 11:13 amTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mr. Lupa-Lasaga, as much as i sympathize with your people for the brutalization they suffered at the hands of UNLA/UPC, i have to regrettably disagree with you for using that unfortunate situation as an analogy to the present situation in the north. You are comparing apples and oranges. Firstly it is not the government of Uganda that is doing the massacring, maiming, abduction and raping of our fellow citizens in the north, it is the LRA/Kony. Now, there may be some truth in saying that the government needs to do more to protect potential victims in the north, and indeed the government has acknowledged that, and has followed up by beefing up security in the north, hence the relative peace now prevailing at the moment. Now, UPDF is in the north to protect innocent Ugandan citizens against the terror of LRA and many brave Ugandan soldiers are making the ultimate sacrifice to achieve that goal. The whole world is aware of the evil exploits of the LRA. The LRA is an internationally known terrorist organization. The LRA is an enemy of the state of Uganda and indeed the world, and as such anyone guilty of aiding and abating there actions is automatically an enemy of the state of Uganda if not the world. The notoriety of the LRA is comparable to that of Alqida.Mr. Lupa-Lasaga, this is serious bussiness. The LRA is responsible for messing up the lives of a generation of people and the loss of many more. Anybody who is interested in sincerely ending the suffering of our fellow citizens in the north, should join the crusade of those who want to stop them in concert with the government of Uganda. This father Rodriguez does not care more for the suffering people of the north than Ugandans. There are northern politicians and other Ugandan politicians who are working hard within the confines of the law to bring about an end to the problem. ARLPI including you, Mr. Lupa-Lasaga, seem to be of the view that father rodriguez cares most for the suffering people of the north and i am saying that, that is not true. Father Rodriguez is a controversial figure, given that he has been making unauthorized contacts with the LRA...let us remember that there is a government in Uganda, which is responsible for the security of Ugandans, so no matter what good intentions father Rodriquez may have, it is unlawful to make contact with an enemy of the state of Uganda, without the authorization or knowledge of the Ugandan government. What he is doing in Uganda, he can not dare try it in Italy (or wherever he comes from). Can he go to Italy and make unauthorized contacts with alqida operatives without the knowledge of the Italian government and not get arrested as an accomplice? We like to critisize government about there unlawful behaviour as indeed we should, however it is hypocritical to choose and cherry-pick when to critisize unlawful behaviour as exhibited by people like father Rodriguez.If the ARLPI is realy sincere in brokering peace in northern Uganda, it should dissociate itself with unlawful people like father Rodriguez who are already, apparently biased towards the LRA. The ARLPI even seems to acknowledge that father Rodriguez is on the other side by warning
RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. Rodriguez
...now where in my posting did i blame the victims, for what is happening to them. Mr. Vukoni, you seem to see the LRA/Kony as victims instead of the opressors. As a matter of fact you are the one who sees the victims as being responsible for there predicament, simply because they have refused to support Kony. No where in my posting did i mention Acholi, as a tribal group for being responsible for the attrocities in the north. You are the one now bringing in tribalism into it...typical UPC politics. As i have been saying, the poeple in the north undersiege from Kony and his Barbbarism are fellow Ugandans and deserve total protection from the government of Uganda. A southern member of perliament has even suggested bringing children in IDPCs to the south to continue there schooling until the crisis ends, all at government's cost. It is only a few people like you who unfortunately see this crisis as an avenue to score extremely cheap political points. Finally, it doesn't matter where Father Rodriguez comes from, his activities are illegal and unlawful. As i said earlier, he cannot dare do what he is doing anywhere in the developed world and not get arrested. This has nothing to do with the personality of Father Rodrieguez, rather it has everything to do with the rule of law. It is even for his own safety. Supposing he was secretly meeting with the rebels without the army's knowledge and the army simultaneously launched an attack at the same location and he got killed or seriously injured, you guys will be on this forum flooding us with all sorts of conspiracy theories against government. No matter what people like you may say, the fact of the matter is that Kony and the LRA are responsible and are indeed carrying out the killing, maiming, destruction, raping and enslavement of innocent people in the north of Uganda. Spin it all you want, but unfortunately for you and your ilk, facts don't lie. facts are facts. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. Rodriguez Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 08:45:21 -0700 _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ---BeginMessage--- My dear Musaazi, In so many words, you've sadly said nothingnew or illuminating, beyondthe claptrap of the "correct line" we've been hearing for the last 18 years.If the Museveni administration weregenuinelyinterested in peace in northern Uganda, we wouldn't be shedding tears about the victims of Kony's savagery. Unlike you, I see a lot of parallels between what happened in West Nile and the ongoing tragedy in Acholi. The Acholi and Ma'di have been neighbors for centuries. I have lived in both communities in their hour of need and I can tell with a reasonable degree of authority thatthe Acholi people are neither savages nor suicidal to want this war to continue until all of them are wiped off the face of the earth. Unfortunately, the subtext of the string of excuses from the NRM aparatchik and statist creatures like yourself is that the victims areto blame for what's happening to them. As for Fr. Rodriguez, would you have reacted differently to what he did if he were Ugandan? vukoni PS. BTW, I don't believe that a peace maker needs the permission of a government that has clearly failed to protect its citizens and done its best to thwart any serious attempts to end the atrocities in Acholi. Ask Betty Bigombe what happened when Museveni undercut her efforts to bring the LRA out of the bushes. Ask the two Acholi elders who were murdered by suspected state agents when they seemed to be making some headway in their mediation efforts. No, for some reason that psycho-analysts might one dayhelp us unravel, Museveni has sabotaged every genuine effort to end the suffering of the people in Acholi. Original Message Subject: RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. RodriguezFrom: "emmanuel musaazi" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Wed, May 12, 2004 11:13 amTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mr. Lupa-Lasaga, as much as i sympathize with your people for the brutalization they suffered at the hands of UNLA/UPC, i have to regrettably disagree with you for using that unfortunate situation as an analogy to the present situation in the north. You are comparing apples and oranges. Firstly it is not the government of Uganda that is doing the massacring, maiming, abduction and raping of our fellow citizens in the north, it is the LRA/Kony. Now, there may be some truth in saying that the government needs to do more to protect potential victims in the north, and indeed the government has acknowledged that, and has followed up by beefing up security in the north, hence the relative peace now prevailing at the moment. Now, UPDF is in the north to protect innocent Ugandan citizens against the terror of LRA and many brave Ugandan
RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. Rodriguez
My dear Musaazi, Obviously, you need to re-read carefully your earlier contributions on this topic. They'redripping with innuendos and inferences about who you think is really to blame for thewar that has made Acholiland and its immediate neighborhood a living hell for all its inhabitantsand otherswithin striking distance. I can't really help you to get a grip on the ramifications of yourpronouncements on the crisis in northern Uganda. But I can provide clues. So answer the following questions for yourself. 1. Why is it that18 years and counting, UPDF has failed to defeat the insurgents in northern Uganda? 2. Who is supporting the LRA? It is notpracticing tribalismto mentionthat nearly a millionAcholi people are the primary victims of the LRA. That's a fact. But I understand where you're coming from. To hide a crime that by commission or ommission has genocidal implications, you mustemployeuphemisms and geographical references that don't betray the identity of the victims. Also, to be a monkey-on-the-string for the NRM, you mustpossessthe curious mentality that can supportodiouslaws aimed at abolishing independent initiatives that fault or counterthe "correct line." I see you mention UPC, the Movement's otherbogeyman, in your latest posting. Boy, do you love innuendos! For the record, I have never been and never will be a member of UPC. A party I despise for its excesses, UPCowes its resurrection to ex-member Yoweri Museveni's compulsive-obsessive hatred of Dr. Milton Apollo Obote. You say: "A southern member of perliament has even suggested bringing children in IDPCs to the south to continue there schooling until the crisis ends, all at government's cost." -- So, each child born in Acholiland will have to be moved to another part of Uganda. How about the parents? Older siblings? Other relatives? Mon ami, relocation isas effective astreatingcancer with vaseline. What's needed isending the war that the NRM/UPDFhas failed to. If a Rodriguez or an Odama can helpmove the peace process forward, why invokethe lawor chicanery to prolong the status quo? Or is there a hidden agenda to let the LRA kill off the Acholi and whomever else falls in their hands? vukoni PS. BTW, could you please quote the law(s) thatcrimininalizenongovernmental initiatives for peace? I think we need toremove it/them from the books. Thanks. =features/featuredemail This service is hosted on the Infocom network http://www.infocom.co.ug
RE: ugnet_: Acholi clergy defends fr. Rodriguez
Dear Musaazi, To illustrate a point that's best driven home anecdotally, I was going to tell netters a story about a tragic event that happened in 1981 in my neck of the woods. But it occurred to me that I could simply redact your small polemic to good effect. My insertions are in brackets. .hmm if father [Osmundo Bilbao] is not a part of the UNRF (or at least a sympathizer), then why are the Ma'di elders afraid that criticizing him will could frustrate and damage the whole peace process currently in place,. If it is okay to accuse the government of not adequately protecting people in [Moyo district], why is it wrong to accuse those who appear to aid and abate the [UNRF], which is the main culprit in the [West Nile] saga. There is no smoke without a fire. Whose side [are the Ma'di elders] on anyway and why is father [Osmundo Bilbao] in there ranks...afterall he is neither [a Ma'di] nor a Ugandan. Peace. vukoni PS. For those curious to know the full story of Osmundo Bilbao, read on. Bilbao was one of several courageous indigenous and foreign Catholic priests who stood up to condemn the atrocities committed by the UNLA in West Nile. After the UNLA massacred close to 100 IDPs in Ombaci Catholic parish/secondary school complex in early 1981, Osmundo traveled to Kampala to bring to wider national and international attention what was really going on in West Nile. While Bilbao was on his way, apologists for the UPC/UNLA cabal condemned him in words that could have come straight out of the mouth of our illustrious Emmanuel Musaazi. Bilbao never made it back to Moyo alive. UNLA soldiers assassinated him in Kampala. To this day, the Ma'di people remember him as a martyr, like many of their own, who died opposing armed violence. Unfortunately, the same tragic history is repeating itself in northern Uganda. I wonder when we will learn that we do not have to belong to the same religion, nationality, or race, to stand up for the rights of the victims of brutal power struggles. vll. This service is hosted on the Infocom network http://www.infocom.co.ug
