Re: Sorting and Volapük (from Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük))
Michael Everson ever...@evertype.com wrote: On 1 Jan 2012, at 19:46, Julian Bradfield wrote: ... So you should be able to define your own locales. How? I am not a programmer. Well, the first step is to try to find out what is needed, by trying to find an analogous case. For example, does your computer have either a file with multiple entries, one for each locale, or does it have separate files, one for each locale? If the latter, could you possibly post the file for French here please so that those who are interested can have a look at it and maybe figure out how to produce an equivalent file for Volapük. Depending upon the way that the files are encoded, that could be anything from straightforward, to complicated to all-but-impossible. That is how programming problems can go. Some are solved straightforwardly and some are not. Now certainly, it might not be just a matter of producing another file: there might possibly, for example, also be a file somewhere else with a list of locales and that might be impossible to alter, so producing a new file is not necessarily enough. However, it is worth having a go at trying to produce a new file, then either putting it into the same directory as the file for French, or, if each locale has its own folder, making a new folder and locating the new file in that new folder; rebooting the computer and observing whether that is enough to get a working result. If you don't want to install them in the system locale directory, you may need to mess around a bit. How? I am using a PC and have only ever used a Mac a few times many years ago, so I cannot help with that part of solving the problem. However, there may well be people on this list who can advise you on that part. William Overington 2 January 2012
Re: Sorting and Volapük
Indeed, I can confirm that behaviour for ö and ü. However, Hungarian does not have ä which is part of Volapük. (And if it's nevertheless there, e.g. in name-lists containing foreign names, or Hungarian names of foreign (German) origin, ä is sorted as a). So Hungarian is neither a perfect fit as a substitute locale for Volapük. /Szabolcs On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 19:48, Jean-François Colson j...@colson.eu wrote: Le 01/01/12 16:27, Michael Everson a écrit : IIRC Hungarian does that for ö and ü: they’re separate letters sorted after o and u respectively. But OTOH á, é, í, ó, ő, ú and ő are sorted as a, e, i, o, ö, u and ü respectively.
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 2012-01-01, Michael Everson ever...@evertype.com wrote: So it is. Do you know how to compile system-level sorting algorithms for such a real operating system? No, but if I wanted to I would find out. If MacOS has left the standard-ish Unixy documentation around, man 5 locale should tell you the format of locale files (with reference to examples that you may have to obtain separately if they're not included with MacOS). and man localedef should tell you how to compile a locale definition. [Elsewhere:] More than anyone else, and we need a locale. How? I am not a programmer. Become one! But you don't need to be much of one - locale definition files don't appear to be very complicated. However, if you don't want to become a programmer, and you have a niche need, pay somebody to do it for you. Any competent programmer with a Mac and some I18N experience ought to be able to do it in an hour or so. (I would offer, but I know nothing about Mac system administration, or the innards of the Mac variant of Unix.) -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Re: Sorting and Volapük
On 2 Jan 2012, at 11:07, Szelp, A. Sz. wrote: Indeed, I can confirm that behaviour for ö and ü. However, Hungarian does not have ä which is part of Volapük. (And if it's nevertheless there, e.g. in name-lists containing foreign names, or Hungarian names of foreign (German) origin, ä is sorted as a). So Hungarian is neither a perfect fit as a substitute locale for Volapük. Plus it treats a number of diagraphs as letters and that would not be appropriate for Volapük. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Hi, How? I am not a programmer. Applications - Utilities - Terminal.app $ man 1 mklocale $ man 1 colldef pay somebody to do it for you $ cd $TMPDIR $ mkdir c:\\vodka cd c\:\\vodka # yes it's still Mac OS X $ curl 'http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/share/colldef/de_DE.ISO8859-15.src?rev=1.6.44.1.2.1;content-type=text/plain' de_DE.ISO8859-15.src $ curl 'http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/share/colldef/map.ISO8859-15?rev=1.1.6.1;content-type=text/plain' map.ISO8859-15 $ echo adjustments are beyond my scope $ colldef -o VALOPUEK de_DE.ISO8859-15.src $ sudo mv VALOPUEK /usr/share/locale/VALOPUEK $ export LC_COLLATE=VOLAPUEK $ echo sorting should work now The University of Edinburgh Cheerio, Miss Sophie! (That's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDqD0Dz_J-M according to Google, and only because there are so many germans around here; but happy new year to all of you, even to those which use a different calendar and don't drink alcohol. Long live small, easy and otherwise beautiful standards.) --steffen
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Except that MacOS X *applications* (as apart from more POSIXy programs, and Terminal.app) should not use the POSIX locales, but should use the CLDR locales (via an Apple API or via ICU)... (Yes, I know, CLDR have POSIX locales format files covering **some** of the CLDR data...) And ISO 8859-15? Really? I don't even find it in the list of encodings Terminal.app supports (but maybe that is just me not finding it). Terminal.app by default uses UTF-8. /K Den 2012-01-02 20:10, skrev Steffen Daode Nurpmeso sdao...@googlemail.com: Hi, How? I am not a programmer. Applications - Utilities - Terminal.app $ man 1 mklocale $ man 1 colldef pay somebody to do it for you $ cd $TMPDIR $ mkdir c:\\vodka cd c\:\\vodka # yes it's still Mac OS X $ curl 'http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/share/colldef/de_DE.ISO8 859-15.src?rev=1.6.44.1.2.1;content-type=text/plain' de_DE.ISO8859-15.src $ curl 'http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/share/colldef/map.ISO885 9-15?rev=1.1.6.1;content-type=text/plain' map.ISO8859-15 $ echo adjustments are beyond my scope $ colldef -o VALOPUEK de_DE.ISO8859-15.src $ sudo mv VALOPUEK /usr/share/locale/VALOPUEK $ export LC_COLLATE=VOLAPUEK $ echo sorting should work now The University of Edinburgh Cheerio, Miss Sophie! (That's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDqD0Dz_J-M according to Google, and only because there are so many germans around here; but happy new year to all of you, even to those which use a different calendar and don't drink alcohol. Long live small, easy and otherwise beautiful standards.) --steffen
