Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

[Anthony West]

Thanks to Karen and Brian for confirming my original point. A few 
"leaders" (officers) do read UC-list, and occasionally write on it. But 
they are a minority among neighborhood leaders. And neither of them uses 
UC-list as a medium for community outreach or discussion for their 
community group. Or UCNeighbors, for that matter.


There has never been a demand on UCNeighbors for community group leaders 
to listen to, or dialog with, its readers. Readers on UCNeighbors seem 
to trust they can reach out to community groups on their own, if they 
have any questions about them.


In contrast, a recurrent fantasy surfaces on UC-list from time to time, 
that it's a place where readers can "address" community groups and 
"demand" information, explanations, atonement, etc. from them. It is 
nothing of the sort.


Most UC-list readers don't think like this, of course. But it is a 
public space where inappropriate behavior faces few checks; as a result, 
inappropriate behavior tends to blossom thereon.


Since nobody ever comments about community groups on UCNeighbors -- 
truly, most such bodies don't seem to be very controversial amongst most 
University Citoyens -- it is impossible to tell whether that list's 
readers are uninvolved and uninformed, or passionate and savvy, about 
community groups.


Only on UC-list is bandwidth wasted on this skimpy subject. If that's 
what its readers like -- then have at it! But they mustn't expect 
community groups to dialog with them here. Especially those that rely 
solely on neighbor-volunteers. Their time is scarce.


-- Tony West



On 4/13/2010 11:34 AM, Karen Allen wrote:
I am a "community leader" b/c I'm Treasurer of Cedar Park Neighbors, 
and I read this list. I also read UC Neighbors.


"You will not hear people who are actually in charge of ongoing 
projects engage in dialog about them here. Therefore, by definition, 
discussion tends to be

dominated by comments of the uninvolved and uninformed."

Since "community leaders" don't "engage in dialog[ue] about [ongoing 
projects]" on UC Neighbors either, I guess that means that UC 
Neighbors' discussions are "dominated by the comments of the 
uninvolved an uninformed" as well.

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

[Glenn]

Since "community leaders" don't "engage in dialog[ue] about [ongoing 
projects]" on UC Neighbors either, I guess that means that UC Neighbors' 
discussions are "dominated by the comments of the uninvolved an 
uninformed" as well.


Hahaha!

FOCP hides their plans; has closed meetings by unidentified 
committeemen; only allows private meetings for coffee; and then calls 
everyone else in the community "uninvolved" and "uninformed"  I guess we 
should call it, Catch-23.


As I've called for meeting times, dates, and locations for many years, 
uninvolved and uninformed is just about the nicest thing the FOCP 
leaders have ever called me!  Remember the ongoing FOCP message to the 
community of the uninformed and uninvolved:


"Put your money where your mouth is"



On 4/13/2010 11:34 AM, Karen Allen wrote:
I am a "community leader" b/c I'm Treasurer of Cedar Park Neighbors, 
and I read this list. I also read UC Neighbors.


"You will not hear people who are actually in charge of ongoing 
projects engage in dialog about them here. Therefore, by definition, 
discussion tends to be

dominated by comments of the uninvolved and uninformed."

Since "community leaders" don't "engage in dialog[ue] about [ongoing 
projects]" on UC Neighbors either, I guess that means that UC 
Neighbors' discussions are "dominated by the comments of the 
uninvolved an uninformed" as well.





> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:45:27 -0400
> From: anthony_w...@earthlink.net
> To: univcity@list.purple.com
> Subject: Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list
>
> Liz,
>
> As I am a member of UC-list, you seem to believe I am insulting myself.
> I'm sorry you feel insulted and you shouldn't, as I think highly of you
> and most UC-list members whom I know personally. I am confident I've
> never attacked Wilma, who is a charming correspondent, although we have
> disagreed on facts.
>
> You are an active community member who posts useful information on
> UC-list. But you are not an officer of a civic association, 
park-support

> group, library support group, church group, home-school association or
> arts association, to my knowledge.
>
> The focus of this thread is a point raised by Mary: why community
> "leaders" don't read this list. She wishes more would do so. I reported
> what most of the leaders who've mentioned the list to me have said: 
they

> don't see it as the wisest use of their time. And the track record of
> the list demonstrates it is seldom used by any neighborhood groups as a
> medium of public interaction.
>
> UC-list can be a perfectly fine place for many people and many 
purposes.

> But if Mary or other members want to use it for meaningful interaction
> with community groups, they will have to change the list so that it
> starts to attract community groups. UCNeighbors doesn't get much
> community-group traffic either, for that matter.
>
> There's not much "political" difference between the two lists, since
> it's the same community and often the same people. However, on
> UCNeighbors I read less railing against "gentrification" by people who,
> when you meet them, look suspiciously like "gentrifiers" to the naked
> eye. To me, that's a UC-list hallmark.
>
> I do not think an unmoderated list with a specialization in discord can
> grow in the direction Mary suggested, that's all. You will not hear
> people who are actually in charge of ongoing projects engage in dialog
> about them here. Therefore, by definition, discussion tends to be
> dominated by comments of the uninvolved and uninformed. But it's the
> process, not the people, that leads to this result.
>
> Those who are happy with this list as it is, face no danger of 
seeing it

> change. Since, however, we often read complaints about UC-list by
> UC-list members, those who wish they had a different product may 
welcome

> both our reviews, Liz.
>
> -- Tony West
>
>
> > At 7:05 Tony directed some questions to me, in response to my post 
which stated that I found his comments about the UC list and its 
members insulting.
> > I am seeing these questions now, along with several other posts by 
Tony, which continue to insult the UnivCity List and its members.
> > Even when Tony throws in the occasional compliments he managed to 
make them sound grudging or gratuitous.

> >
> > I consider myself ACTIVE in several neighborhood organizations, 
and SUPPORTIVE of many others.

> > I read many positive posts on both lists.
> > I read many thoughtful posts on both lists.
> >
> > I don't think it is appropriate to define ei

RE: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

[Karen Allen]

I am a "community leader" b/c I'm Treasurer of Cedar Park Neighbors, and I read 
this list. I also read UC Neighbors.  

 

"You will not hear people who are actually in charge of ongoing projects engage 
in dialog about them here. Therefore, by definition, discussion tends to be 
 dominated by comments of the uninvolved and uninformed." 

 

Since "community leaders" don't "engage in dialog[ue] about [ongoing projects]" 
on UC Neighbors either, I guess that means that UC Neighbors' discussions are 
"dominated by the comments of the uninvolved an uninformed" as well. 

 

 


 
> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 08:45:27 -0400
> From: anthony_w...@earthlink.net
> To: univcity@list.purple.com
> Subject: Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list
> 
> Liz,
> 
> As I am a member of UC-list, you seem to believe I am insulting myself. 
> I'm sorry you feel insulted and you shouldn't, as I think highly of you 
> and most UC-list members whom I know personally. I am confident I've 
> never attacked Wilma, who is a charming correspondent, although we have 
> disagreed on facts.
> 
> You are an active community member who posts useful information on 
> UC-list. But you are not an officer of a civic association, park-support 
> group, library support group, church group, home-school association or 
> arts association, to my knowledge.
> 
> The focus of this thread is a point raised by Mary: why community 
> "leaders" don't read this list. She wishes more would do so. I reported 
> what most of the leaders who've mentioned the list to me have said: they 
> don't see it as the wisest use of their time. And the track record of 
> the list demonstrates it is seldom used by any neighborhood groups as a 
> medium of public interaction.
> 
> UC-list can be a perfectly fine place for many people and many purposes. 
> But if Mary or other members want to use it for meaningful interaction 
> with community groups, they will have to change the list so that it 
> starts to attract community groups. UCNeighbors doesn't get much 
> community-group traffic either, for that matter.
> 
> There's not much "political" difference between the two lists, since 
> it's the same community and often the same people. However, on 
> UCNeighbors I read less railing against "gentrification" by people who, 
> when you meet them, look suspiciously like "gentrifiers" to the naked 
> eye. To me, that's a UC-list hallmark.
> 
> I do not think an unmoderated list with a specialization in discord can 
> grow in the direction Mary suggested, that's all. You will not hear 
> people who are actually in charge of ongoing projects engage in dialog 
> about them here. Therefore, by definition, discussion tends to be 
> dominated by comments of the uninvolved and uninformed. But it's the 
> process, not the people, that leads to this result.
> 
> Those who are happy with this list as it is, face no danger of seeing it 
> change. Since, however, we often read complaints about UC-list by 
> UC-list members, those who wish they had a different product may welcome 
> both our reviews, Liz.
> 
> -- Tony West
> 
> 
> > At 7:05 Tony directed some questions to me, in response to my post which 
> > stated that I found his comments about the UC list and its members 
> > insulting.
> > I am seeing these questions now, along with several other posts by Tony, 
> > which continue to insult the UnivCity List and its members.
> > Even when Tony throws in the occasional compliments he managed to make them 
> > sound grudging or gratuitous.
> >
> > I consider myself ACTIVE in several neighborhood organizations, and 
> > SUPPORTIVE of many others.
> > I read many positive posts on both lists.
> > I read many thoughtful posts on both lists.
> >
> > I don't think it is appropriate to define either list as a complete or 
> > accurate voice for the community.
> > I have previously posted my frustration at the failure of many 
> > self-described "leaders" to engage the members of our community who are not 
> > on either list, or any e-lists.
> > "MY" neighborhood includes the elderly, immigrants, pre-schoolers and 
> > people who don't have the luxury of home computers.
> >
> > I don't see any huge political difference between the two lists.
> > UCNeighbors is sometimes more arty or playful, thanks to Kyle and Ross.
> > UnivCity seems a little more practical and more open to penetrating 
> > discussions and discord.
> > Ultimately I don't see the need for the

RE: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

[Karen Allen]

I know I'm opening myself up to an attack, but the same groups also do not use 
UC Neighbors. So what's being proved? 

 

Speaking as a Cedar Park Neighbors Board member for the past 14 years, CPN has 
its own website and a membership list that we use to send out information.  

 


Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:05:19 -0400
From: anthony_w...@earthlink.net
To: univcity@list.purple.com
Subject: Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

Really, Liz? I thought it calm, informative, observant and factual.

Of the numerous community groups in University City City, how many can you name 
whose activists use UC-list as an information medium?

If they don't in fact, use it ... do you have an alternative explanation for 
why they don't, which is better than my explanation? Why do you think the 
following vibrant groups seldom comment on this listserve (I'm all ears)? --

Friends of Clark Park, Friends of Malcolm X Park, Friends of Barkan Park, 
Friends of the Walnut Street West Library, Penn Alexander HSA, Lee HSA, Wilson 
HSA, University City Historical Society, the A-Space, Powelton Civic Ass'n, 
Walnut Hill Community Ass'n, Cedar Park Neighbors, Garden Court Community 
Association, Spruce Hill Community Association, West Shore Community, Dist. 
Health Ctr. 3, University Square Association, Woodland Ave. Reunion, University 
City City Arts League, People's Emergency Ctr., Community Education Ctr. (I 
could go on and on.)

(A) Why do you think none of these groups want to touch this listserve with a 
10-foot pole? (B) Why do you think it's the messenger's fault (me) for pointing 
out the obvious? I think these data more likely point to a flaw in UC-list's 
underlying design.

But if you can correct these flaws and solve these problems, you know I'll 
stick with it!

-- Tony West



On 4/12/2010 6:40 PM, campio...@juno.com wrote: 
I found this an insulting and crazy making post

  

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

[Anthony West]

Liz,

As I am a member of UC-list, you seem to believe I am insulting myself. 
I'm sorry you feel insulted and you shouldn't, as I think highly of you 
and most UC-list members whom I know personally. I am confident I've 
never attacked Wilma, who is a charming correspondent, although we have 
disagreed on facts.


You are an active community member who posts useful information on 
UC-list. But you are not an officer of a civic association, park-support 
group, library support group, church group, home-school association or 
arts association, to my knowledge.


The focus of this thread is a point raised by Mary: why community 
"leaders" don't read this list. She wishes more would do so. I reported 
what most of the leaders who've mentioned the list to me have said: they 
don't see it as the wisest use of their time. And the track record of 
the list demonstrates it is seldom used by any neighborhood groups as a 
medium of public interaction.


UC-list can be a perfectly fine place for many people and many purposes. 
But if Mary or other members want to use it for meaningful interaction 
with community groups, they will have to change the list so that it 
starts to attract community groups. UCNeighbors doesn't get much 
community-group traffic either, for that matter.


There's not much "political" difference between the two lists, since 
it's the same community and often the same people. However, on 
UCNeighbors I read less railing against "gentrification" by people who, 
when you meet them, look suspiciously like "gentrifiers" to the naked 
eye. To me, that's a UC-list hallmark.


I do not think an unmoderated list with a specialization in discord can 
grow in the direction Mary suggested, that's all. You will not hear 
people who are actually in charge of ongoing projects engage in dialog 
about them here. Therefore, by definition, discussion tends to be 
dominated by comments of the uninvolved and uninformed. But it's the 
process, not the people, that leads to this result.


Those who are happy with this list as it is, face no danger of seeing it 
change. Since, however, we often read complaints about UC-list by 
UC-list members, those who wish they had a different product may welcome 
both our reviews, Liz.


-- Tony West



At 7:05 Tony directed some questions to me, in response to my post which stated 
that I found his comments about the UC list and its members insulting.
I am seeing these questions now, along with several other posts by Tony, which 
continue to insult the UnivCity List and its members.
Even when Tony throws in the occasional compliments he managed to make them 
sound grudging or gratuitous.

I consider myself ACTIVE in several neighborhood organizations, and SUPPORTIVE 
of many others.
I read many positive posts on both lists.
I read many thoughtful posts on both lists.

I don't think it is appropriate to define either list as a complete or accurate 
voice for the community.
I have previously posted my frustration at the failure of many self-described 
"leaders" to engage the members of our community who are not on either list, or 
any e-lists.
"MY" neighborhood includes the elderly, immigrants, pre-schoolers and people 
who don't have the luxury of home computers.

I don't see any huge political difference between the two lists.
UCNeighbors is sometimes more arty or playful, thanks to Kyle and Ross.
UnivCity seems a little more practical and more open to penetrating discussions 
and discord.
Ultimately I don't see the need for the competitive narcissism that Tony seem 
to be promoting as he harps on the superiority of one list (and its members) 
over the other.
The reality in most cases is probably WE is THEY.
Does anyone know the percentage of overlap?  I bet it is quite high.

Wilma makes wonderful contributions.
Some may on the face seem negative while reading to me as a search for 
acknowledgment of an ongoing need to bridge class, race and cultural 
differences.
She did not deserve Tony's attack.


Sadly, Tony's 9:50 PM post reads, to me, like projection.
Was Tony looking in a mirror when he wrote,
"An unmoderated listserve runs an equal risk of reflecting only the views
of discredited streetcorner ranters, because they are the only public
speakers who have nothing better to do with their time -- but can't
withstand any judgemental filter for their writing. So they wind up
clogging the drain on UC-list. They're not that much fun, and they're
not very informative either."
I read this as his autobiography for today.

Some days Tony makes wonderful contributions.
Today, not so much.
I am tired of people who deny their own behavior, even while they are attacking 
similar behavior in others.


I am happy to have access to both UnivCIty and UCNeighbors.
I am grateful to Jeff and Kyle for the tools they have given us.

I am no fan of Glenn's methods but, just because he often acts obsessed or 
sounds paranoid, it doesn't mean he's always wrong.


I hope all enjoy some lovely rest a

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

[campio...@juno.com]

At 7:05 Tony directed some questions to me, in response to my post which stated 
that I found his comments about the UC list and its members insulting.
I am seeing these questions now, along with several other posts by Tony, which 
continue to insult the UnivCity List and its members.
Even when Tony throws in the occasional compliments he managed to make them 
sound grudging or gratuitous.

I consider myself ACTIVE in several neighborhood organizations, and SUPPORTIVE 
of many others.
I read many positive posts on both lists.
I read many thoughtful posts on both lists.

I don't think it is appropriate to define either list as a complete or accurate 
voice for the community.
I have previously posted my frustration at the failure of many self-described 
"leaders" to engage the members of our community who are not on either list, or 
any e-lists.
"MY" neighborhood includes the elderly, immigrants, pre-schoolers and people 
who don't have the luxury of home computers.

I don't see any huge political difference between the two lists.
UCNeighbors is sometimes more arty or playful, thanks to Kyle and Ross.
UnivCity seems a little more practical and more open to penetrating discussions 
and discord.
Ultimately I don't see the need for the competitive narcissism that Tony seem 
to be promoting as he harps on the superiority of one list (and its members) 
over the other.
The reality in most cases is probably WE is THEY.
Does anyone know the percentage of overlap?  I bet it is quite high.

Wilma makes wonderful contributions.
Some may on the face seem negative while reading to me as a search for 
acknowledgment of an ongoing need to bridge class, race and cultural 
differences.
She did not deserve Tony's attack.


Sadly, Tony's 9:50 PM post reads, to me, like projection.
Was Tony looking in a mirror when he wrote,
"An unmoderated listserve runs an equal risk of reflecting only the views 
of discredited streetcorner ranters, because they are the only public 
speakers who have nothing better to do with their time -- but can't 
withstand any judgemental filter for their writing. So they wind up 
clogging the drain on UC-list. They're not that much fun, and they're 
not very informative either."
I read this as his autobiography for today.

Some days Tony makes wonderful contributions.
Today, not so much.
I am tired of people who deny their own behavior, even while they are attacking 
similar behavior in others.


I am happy to have access to both UnivCIty and UCNeighbors.
I am grateful to Jeff and Kyle for the tools they have given us.

I am no fan of Glenn's methods but, just because he often acts obsessed or 
sounds paranoid, it doesn't mean he's always wrong.


I hope all enjoy some lovely rest and wake up charged up o do well while doing 
good.

Best!
Liz


Please note: message attached

From: Anthony West 
To: "UnivCity@list.purple.com >> UnivCity listserv" 
Subject: Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:05:19 -0400

Really, Liz? I thought it calm, informative, observant and factual.

Of the numerous community groups in University City City, how many can you name 
whose activists use UC-list as an information medium?

If they don't in fact, use it ... do you have an alternative explanation for 
why they don't, which is better than my explanation? Why do you think the 
following vibrant groups seldom comment on this listserve (I'm all ears)? --

Friends of Clark Park, Friends of Malcolm X Park, Friends of Barkan Park, 
Friends of the Walnut Street West Library, Penn Alexander HSA, Lee HSA, Wilson 
HSA, University City Historical Society, the A-Space, Powelton Civic Ass'n, 
Walnut Hill Community Ass'n, Cedar Park Neighbors, Garden Court Community 
Association, Spruce Hill Community Association, West Shore Community, Dist. 
Health Ctr. 3, University Square Association, Woodland Ave. Reunion, University 
City City Arts League, People's Emergency Ctr., Community Education Ctr. (I 
could go on and on.)

(A) Why do you think none of these groups want to touch this listserve with a 
10-foot pole? (B) Why do you think it's the messenger's fault (me) for pointing 
out the obvious? I think these data more likely point to a flaw in UC-list's 
underlying design.

But if you can correct these flaws and solve these problems, you know I'll 
stick with it!

-- Tony West
 

Top 3 Wrinkle Creams
Look years younger without painful injections/surgery. Try now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4bc3eb0f681492142e4st04vuc--- Begin Message ---

Really, Liz? I thought it calm, informative, observant and factual.

Of the numerous community groups in University City City, how many can 
you name whose activists use UC-list as an information medium?


If they don't in fact, 

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

[Anthony West]

It does run that risk. No such thing as a risk-free, or perfectly 
reflective, neighborhood listserve! There is only better and worse.


An unmoderated listserve runs an equal risk of reflecting only the views 
of discredited streetcorner ranters, because they are the only public 
speakers who have nothing better to do with their time -- but can't 
withstand any judgemental filter for their writing. So they wind up 
clogging the drain on UC-list. They're not that much fun, and they're 
not very informative either.


-- Tony West



On 4/12/2010 8:48 PM, Frank Carroll wrote:

On the other hand, a moderated list runs the risk of reflecting only the views 
of the moderator. In this case I can't say that this hasn't happened.
   



You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
.

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list (Was: Re: FOCP response)

[Frank Carroll]

On the other hand, a moderated list runs the risk of reflecting only the views 
of the moderator. In this case I can't say that this hasn't happened.

Frank

On Apr 12, 2010, at 07:41 PM, Anthony West wrote:

> Hi Frank. Always glad to talk with a fellow UC-list supporter.
> 
> This is my opinion. I earn a humble living by determining which, among a 
> welter of reports, are informative, observant and factual; so please excuse 
> me if I extend my work habits to this listserve. Since it's an unmoderated 
> listserve, I can't deny that deceptive, ignorant, shameless and false 
> statements have equal right to be published on UC-list.
> 
> That's what UC-list is best known for, among neighborhood movers and shakers 
> who read the internet. It's the listserve where nobody who actually does 
> anything around here, writes anything.
> 
> Do you disagree with me?
> 
> -- Tony West
> 
> 
>> "informative, observant and factual?" Did someone do a survey or is this 
>> just your "factual" opinion?
>> 
>> Frank
>>   
> 
> 
> You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
> list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
> .
> 


You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the
list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
.

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

[Alex de Soto]

Sorry, Tony.

It¹s just me Wilma.  I changed my email account, but not ³Himself¹s ³name as
first person.

Her assertion that it was an insulting post is nearly the same as my, ³Wow!
That¹s a slap in the face², post from last week.

It is indeed!

I shall try to re-instate my name.


On 4/12/10 8:03 PM, "Anthony West"  wrote:

> I can't tell what you think Liz is "right" about, Alex. I already have said,
> more than once, that I thought UC-list was "one of the first in the city" and
> that it brilliantly met my needs as a neighbor in University City.
> 
> But it's beyond question that it no longer does so. Duh?
> 
> "Legitimacy" is a baloney slogan. UC-list is nothing more than an info medium,
> just like my newspaper. Just because someone named it "UC-list" long, long ago
> doesn't grant it any unique right to speak for the University City
> "community". Statistically, it doesn't seem to do so anymore. UC-list is all
> about quarreling and disputing, isn't it? Nobody ever says anything positive
> about our neighborhood on it, and that includes you.
> 
> UCNeighbors represents community groups better, because it likes our
> neighborhood more than UC-list. (I think of it as "UCQuarrels.") To keep
> serving your community -- you can't just rely on your internet name! You have
> to keep learning about it and keep adapting to it as it grows and develops.
> Otherwise, you'll be left in the ditch.
> 
> -- Tony West
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/12/2010 7:36 PM, Alex de Soto wrote:
>>   Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list No, Tony,
>>  
>> Liz is right.  I know this because she was here when our UC Listserv was one
>> of the first in the city.
>>  
>> It was formed by a community group, but that should not be a requisite
>> criterion for its legitimacy.
>>  
>> Pray tell why UCNeighbors represents community groups better and from where
>> sprang their legitimacy to represent the community?
>>  
>> As to why people do not want to touch this listserv with a ten-foot pole
>> might be because of what they thought this community was and cannot accept
>> any other versions.
> 
> 

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

[Anthony West]

I can't tell what you think Liz is "right" about, Alex. I already have 
said, more than once, that I thought UC-list was "one of the first in 
the city" and that it brilliantly met my needs as a neighbor in 
University City.


But it's beyond question that it no longer does so. Duh?

"Legitimacy" is a baloney slogan. UC-list is nothing more than an info 
medium, just like my newspaper. Just because someone named it "UC-list" 
long, long ago doesn't grant it any unique right to speak for the 
University City "community". Statistically, it doesn't seem to do so 
anymore. UC-list is all about quarreling and disputing, isn't it? Nobody 
ever says anything positive about our neighborhood on it, and that 
includes you.


UCNeighbors represents community groups better, because it likes our 
neighborhood more than UC-list. (I think of it as "UCQuarrels.") To keep 
serving your community -- you can't just rely on your internet name! You 
have to keep learning about it and keep adapting to it as it grows and 
develops. Otherwise, you'll be left in the ditch.


-- Tony West



On 4/12/2010 7:36 PM, Alex de Soto wrote:

No, Tony,

Liz is right.  I know this because she was here when our UC Listserv 
was one of the first in the city.


It was formed by a community group, but that should not be a requisite 
criterion for its legitimacy.


Pray tell why UCNeighbors represents community groups better and from 
where sprang their legitimacy to represent the community?


As to why people do not want to touch this listserv with a ten-foot 
pole might be because of what they thought this community was and 
cannot accept any other versions.

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list (Was: Re: FOCP response)

[Anthony West]

Hi Frank. Always glad to talk with a fellow UC-list supporter.

This is my opinion. I earn a humble living by determining which, among a 
welter of reports, are informative, observant and factual; so please 
excuse me if I extend my work habits to this listserve. Since it's an 
unmoderated listserve, I can't deny that deceptive, ignorant, shameless 
and false statements have equal right to be published on UC-list.


That's what UC-list is best known for, among neighborhood movers and 
shakers who read the internet. It's the listserve where nobody who 
actually does anything around here, writes anything.


Do you disagree with me?

-- Tony West



"informative, observant and factual?" Did someone do a survey or is this just your 
"factual" opinion?

Frank
   



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Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

[Alex de Soto]

No, Tony,

Liz is right.  I know this because she was here when our UC Listserv was one
of the first in the city.

It was formed by a community group, but that should not be a requisite
criterion for its legitimacy.

Pray tell why UCNeighbors represents community groups better and from where
sprang their legitimacy to represent the community?

As to why people do not want to touch this listserv with a ten-foot pole
might be because of what they thought this community was and cannot accept
any other versions.


On 4/12/10 7:05 PM, "Anthony West"  wrote:

> Really, Liz? I thought it calm, informative, observant and factual.
> 
> Of the numerous community groups in University City City, how many can you
> name whose activists use UC-list as an information medium?
> 
> If they don't in fact, use it ... do you have an alternative explanation for
> why they don't, which is better than my explanation? Why do you think the
> following vibrant groups seldom comment on this listserve (I'm all ears)? --
> 
> Friends of Clark Park, Friends of Malcolm X Park, Friends of Barkan Park,
> Friends of the Walnut Street West Library, Penn Alexander HSA, Lee HSA, Wilson
> HSA, University City Historical Society, the A-Space, Powelton Civic Ass'n,
> Walnut Hill Community Ass'n, Cedar Park Neighbors, Garden Court Community
> Association, Spruce Hill Community Association, West Shore Community, Dist.
> Health Ctr. 3, University Square Association, Woodland Ave. Reunion,
> University City City Arts League, People's Emergency Ctr., Community Education
> Ctr. (I could go on and on.)
> 
> (A) Why do you think none of these groups want to touch this listserve with a
> 10-foot pole? (B) Why do you think it's the messenger's fault (me) for
> pointing out the obvious? I think these data more likely point to a flaw in
> UC-list's underlying design.
> 
> But if you can correct these flaws and solve these problems, you know I'll
> stick with it!
> 
> -- Tony West
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/12/2010 6:40 PM, campio...@juno.com wrote:
>>  I found this an insulting and crazy making post
> 
> 

[UC] why community activists avoid this list (Was: Re: FOCP response)

[Anthony West]

I don't think the Councilwoman reads UC-list posts personally. She's not 
a big internet fan (and who can blame her?). Of course, someone on her 
paid staff always monitors UC-list. Other politicians, with budgets to 
hire employees, can direct their employees to read UC-list, along with 
the other neighborhood lists. But none of them use it as an interactive 
communications medium. That's a fact.


Volunteer neighborhood activists have even less incentive to spend their 
free time dialoguing with cranks on UC-list. It doesn't pay. It's not 
that every UC-list subscriber is a crank. It's that the cranks 
increasingly drown out the discussion, so that normal neighbors have a 
hard time discussing normal neighborhood issues on this listserve in a 
normal manner. That's why people keep asking for advice on how to leave 
it. We don't see this phenomenon on UCNeighbors -- people begging for 
advice on how to unsubscribe.


People who have a reason to reach out to the most University City 
residents possible, should begin with the most-popular listerve, which 
is UCNeighbors. After that comes UC-list, then PFSNI.


-- Tony West


On 4/12/2010 6:56 PM, Alex de Soto wrote:
Trust me, Jannie Blackwell, Jim Roebuck, Committee and Ward Leaders 
are on this list and have been for a long time.

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list (Was: Re: FOCP response)

[Alex de Soto]

Well, Tony,

Since the listserv began in 1996 and the Internet not so long before,
University City was one of the first changing neighborhoods in the City of
Philadelphia to even HAVE so many on the Internet that we could even form a
listserv.

A prodigious achievement in this city that may now be taken for granted in
the era of the iPad.

Even though I predate you on the UC listserv, I recall being one of the
youngsters who were plugged in during the early 90¹s and knew about how to
use the Web.

I also recall the impetus of the Penn Mortgage Program in 1995 and no longer
having to show houses on Community Group Organized UC Saturday¹s.

THAT¹S when everything changed and could be discussed on the Web.

Beforehand, the same divergent points of view about community development
were done solely through 501-C3 associations, and were not accessible to the
entire community.

The UC Listserv has the distinction of being one of the first in this city
to make this happen, much to the chagrin of some.
-Wilma


On 4/12/10 6:11 PM, "Anthony West"  wrote:

> Mary,
> 
> I have been on this list since ~2001. I can name about about two dozen
> different community groups in the University City area, and I suspect I'm
> missing a few. Surely, during this time, a few of their leaders have lurked on
> UC-list.
> 
> But I don't recall seeing any group that utilizes UC-list as a posting
> mechanism. Therefore, it is not really a "source" of much "local information."
> Most activists I've talked to regard it more as a source of local
> misinformation. UC-list has become a talking shop dominated by people who know
> little and do nothing, but criticize big. Most activists say it's a waste of
> their unpaid volunteer time to read this list.
> 
> I was an outlier. During my presidency of Friends of Clark Park (2003-05), I
> found great value in Purple and I militantly pushed my organization to use
> Purple as an outreach medium. As everybody knows, I'm a dedicated Purple
> loyalist. But I found no imitators and, in fact, wound up wading through all
> sorts of muck as a result of standing by Purple. My effort was a waste of
> time, I say now in sorrow.
> 
> The core problem is that UC-list is unmoderated. As a result, in practice,
> it's a poor source of information -- an unsafe place in which to exchange
> information. It's a newspaper without an editor, a street without a cop.
> 
> Now there's a better product to serve the neighborhood. So that's where the
> better traffic is shifting. And that leaves even less to learn from UC-list.
> 
> FYI: Mr. Chance does not head a "civic association" but a "park support
> group". FoCP's mission is to communicate with park users. If you are curious
> about anything he does, and you authentically care about the park ...
> shouldn't you show up at his next public meeting? FoCP has a listserve of its
> own, which represents this community quite well in its own way. It's not his
> job to come to your list, if you want to learn something from him. "Community"
> is a two-way street.
> 
> -- Tony West
> 
> 
>>   
>>  Does anyone know why Mr. Chance does not subscribe to this listserve?  I
>> would expect the leader of a local civic association to be connected to as
>> many sources of local information and activities as possible.  What about our
>> other civic leaders (e.g. at the Spruce Hill Community Association, the UC
>> Historical Society and Cedar Park Neighbors) and our local politicians (Mrs.
>> Blackwell, for instance and ward leaders and committee members)?
>>  
>> Mary
>>  
> 
> 

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list (Was: Re: FOCP response)

[Frank Carroll]

On Apr 12, 2010, at 06:11 PM, Anthony West wrote:

> Most activists say it's a waste of their unpaid volunteer time to read this 
> list.

"informative, observant and factual?" Did someone do a survey or is this just 
your "factual" opinion?

Frank


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list named "UnivCity." To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
.

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list

[Anthony West]

Really, Liz? I thought it calm, informative, observant and factual.

Of the numerous community groups in University City City, how many can 
you name whose activists use UC-list as an information medium?


If they don't in fact, use it ... do you have an alternative explanation 
for why they don't, which is better than my explanation? Why do you 
think the following vibrant groups seldom comment on this listserve (I'm 
all ears)? --


Friends of Clark Park, Friends of Malcolm X Park, Friends of Barkan 
Park, Friends of the Walnut Street West Library, Penn Alexander HSA, Lee 
HSA, Wilson HSA, University City Historical Society, the A-Space, 
Powelton Civic Ass'n, Walnut Hill Community Ass'n, Cedar Park Neighbors, 
Garden Court Community Association, Spruce Hill Community Association, 
West Shore Community, Dist. Health Ctr. 3, University Square 
Association, Woodland Ave. Reunion, University City City Arts League, 
People's Emergency Ctr., Community Education Ctr. (I could go on and on.)


(A) Why do you think none of these groups want to touch this listserve 
with a 10-foot pole? (B) Why do you think it's the messenger's fault 
(me) for pointing out the obvious? I think these data more likely point 
to a flaw in UC-list's underlying design.


But if you can correct these flaws and solve these problems, you know 
I'll stick with it!


-- Tony West



On 4/12/2010 6:40 PM, campio...@juno.com wrote:

I found this an insulting and crazy making post

Re: [UC] why community activists avoid this list (Was: Re: FOCP response)

[campionef]

I found this an insulting and crazy making post
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-Original Message-
From: Anthony West 
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 18:11:04 
To: UnivCity@list.purple.com >> UnivCity listserv
Subject: [UC] why community activists avoid this list (Was: Re: FOCP response)

Mary,

I have been on this list since ~2001. I can name about about two dozen 
different community groups in the University City area, and I suspect 
I'm missing a few. Surely, during this time, a few of their leaders have 
lurked on UC-list.

But I don't recall seeing any group that utilizes UC-list as a posting 
mechanism. Therefore, it is not really a "source" of much "local 
information." Most activists I've talked to regard it more as a source 
of local misinformation. UC-list has become a talking shop dominated by 
people who know little and do nothing, but criticize big. Most activists 
say it's a waste of their unpaid volunteer time to read this list.

I was an outlier. During my presidency of Friends of Clark Park 
(2003-05), I found great value in Purple and I militantly pushed my 
organization to use Purple as an outreach medium. As everybody knows, 
I'm a dedicated Purple loyalist. But I found no imitators and, in fact, 
wound up wading through all sorts of muck as a result of standing by 
Purple. My effort was a waste of time, I say now in sorrow.

The core problem is that UC-list is unmoderated. As a result, in 
practice, it's a poor source of information -- an unsafe place in which 
to exchange information. It's a newspaper without an editor, a street 
without a cop.

Now there's a better product to serve the neighborhood. So that's where 
the better traffic is shifting. And that leaves even less to learn from 
UC-list.

FYI: Mr. Chance does not head a "civic association" but a "park support 
group". FoCP's mission is to communicate with park users. If you are 
curious about anything he does, and you authentically care about the 
park ... shouldn't you show up at his next public meeting? FoCP has a 
listserve of its own, which represents this community quite well in its 
own way. It's not his job to come to your list, if you want to learn 
something from him. "Community" is a two-way street.

-- Tony West


> Does anyone know why Mr. Chance does not subscribe to this listserve?  
> I would expect the leader of a local civic association to be connected 
> to as many sources of local information and activities as possible.  
> What about our other civic leaders (e.g. at the Spruce Hill Community 
> Association, the UC Historical Society and Cedar Park Neighbors) and 
> our local politicians (Mrs. Blackwell, for instance and ward leaders 
> and committee members)?
>
> Mary

[UC] why community activists avoid this list (Was: Re: FOCP response)

[Anthony West]

Mary,

I have been on this list since ~2001. I can name about about two dozen 
different community groups in the University City area, and I suspect 
I'm missing a few. Surely, during this time, a few of their leaders have 
lurked on UC-list.


But I don't recall seeing any group that utilizes UC-list as a posting 
mechanism. Therefore, it is not really a "source" of much "local 
information." Most activists I've talked to regard it more as a source 
of local misinformation. UC-list has become a talking shop dominated by 
people who know little and do nothing, but criticize big. Most activists 
say it's a waste of their unpaid volunteer time to read this list.


I was an outlier. During my presidency of Friends of Clark Park 
(2003-05), I found great value in Purple and I militantly pushed my 
organization to use Purple as an outreach medium. As everybody knows, 
I'm a dedicated Purple loyalist. But I found no imitators and, in fact, 
wound up wading through all sorts of muck as a result of standing by 
Purple. My effort was a waste of time, I say now in sorrow.


The core problem is that UC-list is unmoderated. As a result, in 
practice, it's a poor source of information -- an unsafe place in which 
to exchange information. It's a newspaper without an editor, a street 
without a cop.


Now there's a better product to serve the neighborhood. So that's where 
the better traffic is shifting. And that leaves even less to learn from 
UC-list.


FYI: Mr. Chance does not head a "civic association" but a "park support 
group". FoCP's mission is to communicate with park users. If you are 
curious about anything he does, and you authentically care about the 
park ... shouldn't you show up at his next public meeting? FoCP has a 
listserve of its own, which represents this community quite well in its 
own way. It's not his job to come to your list, if you want to learn 
something from him. "Community" is a two-way street.


-- Tony West


Does anyone know why Mr. Chance does not subscribe to this listserve?  
I would expect the leader of a local civic association to be connected 
to as many sources of local information and activities as possible.  
What about our other civic leaders (e.g. at the Spruce Hill Community 
Association, the UC Historical Society and Cedar Park Neighbors) and 
our local politicians (Mrs. Blackwell, for instance and ward leaders 
and committee members)?


Mary