Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[Ben Rubinstein]

On 17/04/2012 16:14, Bob Sneidar wrote:

I was misinformed. You can do more than one, but I don't think more than 5. We 
have 70 at least.


My impression is that you can, but you shouldn't.  That is, the store lets you 
download and install on multiple machines; but you are then in breach of the 
license.  The five-machine permit is a 'family license' concept, and doesn't 
apply to commercial use.  If you need a small number greater than one for your 
employees, Apple makes it easy - unless you take legal obligations seriously, 
in which case as Bob points out you either have to jump through a lot of 
hoops, or pay for a minimum quantity of 20 units.


On 17/04/2012 00:14, Kee Nethery wrote:
> how does Microsoft handle multiple machines in an office?

They have a (relatively!) straightforward Volume Licensing system.  You deal 
with a reseller, they help you navigate through a maze of options, in the end 
they invoice you in the normal way and you end up being able to log into a 
Microsoft portal, manage your licenses (in the case of MS Office, for both Mac 
and Windows), download versions, pay more for 3yrs 'software assurance', etc. 
 It's all a serious attempt to serve - and extract maximum cash from - the 
SME sector.


And there's the rub. Those licenses cost a lot. The reseller has to do some 
work so they have to make their cut, and Microsoft price for the corporate user.


By contrast, a single Lion upgrade is GBP 21 (approx US$ 33).  In this way 
also Apple is clearly aiming at the consumer.  If you have three Windows 
users, you'll probably pay about as much to upgrade them as to buy a 20 pack 
of Lion upgrade licenses.


On 17/04/2012 07:10, Richmond wrote:

Whatever you may think about Steve Jobs; one should always remember that
when the 'guru' dies, the nature of the organisation changes


Let's not retroactively credit SJ with every thing good, and exempt him for 
responsibility for everything bad; this problem was being discussed last June, 
long before he departed.




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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[J. Landman Gay]

On 4/17/12 10:47 AM, Colin Holgate wrote:

You have to wait for it to download before you can use it, but you
don't have to wait for it to download if you're just installing it.
With Android the download stage is ahead of the installing stage. The
Android download, accept permissions, install stages, are the
equivalent of the single touch you do with BetaBuilder. I'm not sure
how it is with AirLaunch.


AirLaunch and BetaBuilder are similar in that they prepare files for OTA 
installation, but BetaBuilder has more manual steps and requires 
separate apps to build the .ipa and upload to a server. AirLaunch does 
all that by itself and is integrated with LiveCode.


The differences between Android and iOS installations seem pretty minor 
to me though. The extra click to accept permissions isn't much of an 
inconvenience, and has the advantage of allowing you to abort the 
installation if you want.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[Colin Holgate]

You have to wait for it to download before you can use it, but you don't have 
to wait for it to download if you're just installing it. With Android the 
download stage is ahead of the installing stage. The Android download, accept 
permissions, install stages, are the equivalent of the single touch you do with 
BetaBuilder. I'm not sure how it is with AirLaunch.

I just went through a support ticket case where the Android APK would refuse to 
be made, so there can be difficulties with Android too. In any case, it was 
mainly the distribution side of things that I was arguing about, I'm assuming 
you wouldn't distribute an app that you hadn't been able to test yourself.

AirLaunch does have the advantage of coping with .app files, with BetaBuilder I 
send the .app through iTunes in order to make an .ipa.


On Apr 17, 2012, at 11:34 AM, J. Landman Gay  wrote:
> 
> >Well, you have to wait for the iOS app to download too.
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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[J. Landman Gay]

On 4/17/12 9:09 AM, Colin Holgate wrote:


Using either BetaBuilder, or Jacque's thing, it's easier to install
on iOS than Android. With iOS you have to touch the screen three
times - once in the email you received, once in the web page you're
taken to, and once more in the dialog that asks if you want to
install the app. On Android you can touch the APK link in the email
message, but then you have to wait for it to download, touch the icon
that takes you to download, touch the install button, and touch the
permissions button. That's assuming you've followed the instructions
you were given on how to set the developer mode to be on.


Well, you have to wait for the iOS app to download too. And if you use 
Dropbox or a server, Android has about the same number of clicks to 
install, but that's really an insignificant benchmark. The real 
difficulty is in setting up to deploy in the first place. It took me 
days to get through Apple's convoluted provisioning process, which is 
difficult, unweildy, and costs money. It took me a couple of minutes to 
create an Android key and deploy.


Tech support on AirLaunch is heavier than any other tool I've released 
-- and almost none of the questions are about AirLaunch itself. Most are 
related to difficulties with Apple's provisioning process and the 
idiosyncracies of the developer portal. Apple doesn't make it easy.


The tradeoff, of course, is that it's easier to distribute malware on 
Android. I appreciate the effort Apple has gone to in order to reduce 
that, though it hasn't been entirely successful. But I think they could 
make the deployment process easier than it is.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[Bob Sneidar]

I was misinformed. You can do more than one, but I don't think more than 5. We 
have 70 at least. 

Bob


On Apr 16, 2012, at 6:39 PM, J. Downs wrote:

> I use the same Apple ID on all my Lion Macs, and download software I've 
> purchased to as many as I like.  Is there some plan to change this in 
> Mountain Lion?
> 
> J.


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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[Colin Holgate]

For the iOS situation to be limiting you would need to be talking about an app 
that was needed by over 100 people in the company. Even medium sized companies 
rarely have 100 people who have to run a particular in-house app. If you wanted 
many hundreds, you only need another one or two more developer licenses.

Using either BetaBuilder, or Jacque's thing, it's easier to install on iOS than 
Android. With iOS you have to touch the screen three times - once in the email 
you received, once in the web page you're taken to, and once more in the dialog 
that asks if you want to install the app. On Android you can touch the APK link 
in the email message, but then you have to wait for it to download, touch the 
icon that takes you to download, touch the install button, and touch the 
permissions button. That's assuming you've followed the instructions you were 
given on how to set the developer mode to be on.


On Apr 17, 2012, at 9:32 AM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

> >With Apple's current policies, it's so difficult to deploy custom apps 
> >specific to a business that it's prohibitive for many of them.

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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[Richard Gaskin]

I suspect Apple will undergo significant changes to some of these 
policies for their app stores.


In addition to the onerous situation you described, consider the many 
opportunities for small and medium organizations to put their iOS 
devices to use solving problems specific to their business, like 
inventory tools, point-of-sale apps, etc. - the type of stuff we 
LiveCoders have been making on the desktop for such orgs for decades, 
now potentially even more useful with mobile counterparts.


With Apple's current policies, it's so difficult to deploy custom apps 
specific to a business that it's prohibitive for many of them.


But with Android, you just turn off the developer lock and copy the APK 
file.


A majority of people in the US work in small businesses.

This is too big a market for Apple to continue to insist that those orgs 
use Android whenever they need cost-effective deployment of custom apps.


Given the size of this audience and the current competitive state of 
things, I'll go out on a limb to predict that Apple's iOS will become as 
easy to deploy custom apps to as Android by this time next year.


If not, they'll lose out on a million opportunities coming up in the 
months ahead as tools like LiveCode make it possible for even small 
businesses to afford this sort of custom development.




Bob Sneidar wrote:


Everyone by now has heard about the App Store. Apple even has gone so far as to 
deploy Lion this way, and appears poised to provide ALL Apple produced software 
this way... AND NO OTHER. So what's the big deal right? Seems pretty convenient!

Well the Devil is in the details. First, each App Store account can only 
purchase Lion once. You cannot then take that App Store account to another 
computer and use it to purchase another copy of Lion! For most people, this is 
a non-issue, but for a corporation with LOTS of Macs deployed, this is a cold 
slap in the face! Now we have to make up an account for each computer, and then 
keep track of which account is used by which computer so we can use it for 
purchases just for that Mac in the future! That is just UGLY!

Now they DO have a volume licensing deal, where you can buy 20 licenses 
minimum, and then make a DVD installer to deploy it, or create a custom image 
and go that route (not good for upgrades though). So you faithfully buy the 20 
licenses. Oh but whoops! You forgot about the 5 other guys at another campus! 
No problem, you will just buy 5 more, right? After all, you already purchased 
the 20 minimum. NO SIR!!! You must buy ANOTHER 20!

You would think that Apple would just say, "Oh sorry our bad! Here you can now 
create a corporate app store account and use it as many times as you need to! Thanks a 
bunch for the business!" But instead they are pushing out inadequate hacks, and then 
telling their business customers that this is t he way it is, and deal with it. To their 
credit, the price of Lion is dramatically cheaper, so maybe that is much ado about 
nothing. Still, Apple users have never been about the price of the product, but the ease 
and convenience.

The Apple of the past has always had a great reputation for thinking things through 
pretty thoroughly. Not anymore though. We used to keep our corporate credit card on file 
at the Apple store, so whenever we wanted to buy something, they would just run it. Apple 
Corporate has put the kibosh on that, forcing businesses to apply for terms, and they 
want to see you financials first. Our accounting department says no way, so no net 30 
account for us! The upshot is we will have to go elsewhere from now on to purchase our 
Apple products, and what is the position of Apple Corporate, the regional manager, the 
store manager and the business manager at the local store? "Oh, well."

We used to be one of their top customers ever. Now we are no customer, and no one 
at Apple is even flinching. When I see this sort of thing happening to a company, I 
envision a large lake frozen over, but large cracks forming under the surface. And 
this from a lifelong Apple diehard! It is my impression that there are people at 
Apple who have wanted to implement their lame ways of doing things for a long time, 
and now that Steve is gone, they see the opportunity to prove what smart guys they 
are! Instead they are making a bunch of really bad choices. In a few years time 
there may not be a big distinction operationally between Apple and an unwieldy 
behemoth corporation like AT&T.

Bob


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
 LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv

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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[stephen barncard]

Maybe Steve should have trained and left his wife in charge

On 16 April 2012 23:10, Richmond  wrote:

>
> Whatever you may think about Steve Jobs; one should always remember that
> when the 'guru' dies,
> the nature of the organisation changes; rarely for the better in my
> experience.
>
>
>

Stephen Barncard
San Francisco Ca. USA

more about sqb  
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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[Richmond]

On 17/04/12 00:37, Bob Sneidar wrote:

Everyone by now has heard about the App Store. Apple even has gone so far as to 
deploy Lion this way, and appears poised to provide ALL Apple produced software 
this way... AND NO OTHER. So what's the big deal right? Seems pretty convenient!

Well the Devil is in the details. First, each App Store account can only 
purchase Lion once. You cannot then take that App Store account to another 
computer and use it to purchase another copy of Lion! For most people, this is 
a non-issue, but for a corporation with LOTS of Macs deployed, this is a cold 
slap in the face! Now we have to make up an account for each computer, and then 
keep track of which account is used by which computer so we can use it for 
purchases just for that Mac in the future! That is just UGLY!

Now they DO have a volume licensing deal, where you can buy 20 licenses 
minimum, and then make a DVD installer to deploy it, or create a custom image 
and go that route (not good for upgrades though). So you faithfully buy the 20 
licenses. Oh but whoops! You forgot about the 5 other guys at another campus! 
No problem, you will just buy 5 more, right? After all, you already purchased 
the 20 minimum. NO SIR!!! You must buy ANOTHER 20!

You would think that Apple would just say, "Oh sorry our bad! Here you can now 
create a corporate app store account and use it as many times as you need to! Thanks a 
bunch for the business!" But instead they are pushing out inadequate hacks, and then 
telling their business customers that this is t he way it is, and deal with it. To their 
credit, the price of Lion is dramatically cheaper, so maybe that is much ado about 
nothing. Still, Apple users have never been about the price of the product, but the ease 
and convenience.

The Apple of the past has always had a great reputation for thinking things 
through pretty thoroughly. Not anymore though.


Whatever you may think about Steve Jobs; one should always remember that 
when the 'guru' dies,
the nature of the organisation changes; rarely for the better in my 
experience.



  We used to keep our corporate credit card on file at the Apple store, so whenever we 
wanted to buy something, they would just run it. Apple Corporate has put the kibosh on 
that, forcing businesses to apply for terms, and they want to see you financials first. 
Our accounting department says no way, so no net 30 account for us! The upshot is we will 
have to go elsewhere from now on to purchase our Apple products, and what is the position 
of Apple Corporate, the regional manager, the store manager and the business manager at 
the local store? "Oh, well."

We used to be one of their top customers ever. Now we are no customer, and no one 
at Apple is even flinching. When I see this sort of thing happening to a company, I 
envision a large lake frozen over, but large cracks forming under the surface. And 
this from a lifelong Apple diehard! It is my impression that there are people at 
Apple who have wanted to implement their lame ways of doing things for a long time, 
and now that Steve is gone, they see the opportunity to prove what smart guys they 
are! Instead they are making a bunch of really bad choices. In a few years time 
there may not be a big distinction operationally between Apple and an unwieldy 
behemoth corporation like AT&T.

Bob
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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[J. Downs]

I use the same Apple ID on all my Lion Macs, and download software I've 
purchased to as many as I like.  Is there some plan to change this in Mountain 
Lion?

J.



On Apr 16, 2012, at 4:37 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:

> Everyone by now has heard about the App Store. Apple even has gone so far as 
> to deploy Lion this way, and appears poised to provide ALL Apple produced 
> software this way... AND NO OTHER. So what's the big deal right? Seems pretty 
> convenient! 
> 
> Well the Devil is in the details. First, each App Store account can only 
> purchase Lion once. You cannot then take that App Store account to another 
> computer and use it to purchase another copy of Lion! For most people, this 
> is a non-issue, but for a corporation with LOTS of Macs deployed, this is a 
> cold slap in the face! Now we have to make up an account for each computer, 
> and then keep track of which account is used by which computer so we can use 
> it for purchases just for that Mac in the future! That is just UGLY! 
> 
> Now they DO have a volume licensing deal, where you can buy 20 licenses 
> minimum, and then make a DVD installer to deploy it, or create a custom image 
> and go that route (not good for upgrades though). So you faithfully buy the 
> 20 licenses. Oh but whoops! You forgot about the 5 other guys at another 
> campus! No problem, you will just buy 5 more, right? After all, you already 
> purchased the 20 minimum. NO SIR!!! You must buy ANOTHER 20! 
> 
> You would think that Apple would just say, "Oh sorry our bad! Here you can 
> now create a corporate app store account and use it as many times as you need 
> to! Thanks a bunch for the business!" But instead they are pushing out 
> inadequate hacks, and then telling their business customers that this is t he 
> way it is, and deal with it. To their credit, the price of Lion is 
> dramatically cheaper, so maybe that is much ado about nothing. Still, Apple 
> users have never been about the price of the product, but the ease and 
> convenience. 
> 
> The Apple of the past has always had a great reputation for thinking things 
> through pretty thoroughly. Not anymore though. We used to keep our corporate 
> credit card on file at the Apple store, so whenever we wanted to buy 
> something, they would just run it. Apple Corporate has put the kibosh on 
> that, forcing businesses to apply for terms, and they want to see you 
> financials first. Our accounting department says no way, so no net 30 account 
> for us! The upshot is we will have to go elsewhere from now on to purchase 
> our Apple products, and what is the position of Apple Corporate, the regional 
> manager, the store manager and the business manager at the local store? "Oh, 
> well." 
> 
> We used to be one of their top customers ever. Now we are no customer, and no 
> one at Apple is even flinching. When I see this sort of thing happening to a 
> company, I envision a large lake frozen over, but large cracks forming under 
> the surface. And this from a lifelong Apple diehard! It is my impression that 
> there are people at Apple who have wanted to implement their lame ways of 
> doing things for a long time, and now that Steve is gone, they see the 
> opportunity to prove what smart guys they are! Instead they are making a 
> bunch of really bad choices. In a few years time there may not be a big 
> distinction operationally between Apple and an unwieldy behemoth corporation 
> like AT&T. 
> 
> Bob
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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[Bob Sneidar]

The way things seem to be going, if Satan was wearing a sweater with an Apple 
logo and sitting in their board room in Cupertino, I could hardly be surprised. 
;-)

Bob


On Apr 16, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Warren Samples wrote:

> On 04/16/2012 06:14 PM, Kee Nethery wrote:
>> Until the software is actually for sale, it probably does not make much 
>> sense to get worked up about their distribution system for large 
>> organizations.
> 
> 
> 
> If one wishes to prevent a plan from becoming a problem, it may be that 
> "before it matters" is very much the right time to make a fuss. It's not that 
> hard to see that this imposes all kinds of frustrating burden for someone 
> trying to administer a lot of computers. That Bob is fuming at Apple makes me 
> wonder if Satan is wearing a sweater today :D
> 
> Warren
> 
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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[Warren Samples]

On 04/16/2012 06:14 PM, Kee Nethery wrote:

Until the software is actually for sale, it probably does not make much sense 
to get worked up about their distribution system for large organizations.




If one wishes to prevent a plan from becoming a problem, it may be that 
"before it matters" is very much the right time to make a fuss. It's not 
that hard to see that this imposes all kinds of frustrating burden for 
someone trying to administer a lot of computers. That Bob is fuming at 
Apple makes me wonder if Satan is wearing a sweater today :D


Warren

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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[Kee Nethery]

I would guess that your complaint is one they are hearing right now from other 
similar customers. Until the software is actually for sale, it probably does 
not make much sense to get worked up about their distribution system for large 
organizations. 

Their last OS update price was around $30. How much is a typical Windows update 
price and how does Microsoft handle multiple machines in an office?

Kee
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Re: [OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[Robert Brenstein]

On 16.04.2012 at 14:37 Uhr -0700 Bob Sneidar apparently wrote:
Everyone by now has heard about the App Store. Apple even has gone 
so far as to deploy Lion this way, and appears poised to provide ALL 
Apple produced software this way... AND NO OTHER. So what's the big 
deal right? Seems pretty convenient!


You may prefer to post your piece to Tidbits-Talk list...

Robert

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[OT] How to take a fairly good concept and jack it up badly

[Bob Sneidar]

Everyone by now has heard about the App Store. Apple even has gone so far as to 
deploy Lion this way, and appears poised to provide ALL Apple produced software 
this way... AND NO OTHER. So what's the big deal right? Seems pretty 
convenient! 

Well the Devil is in the details. First, each App Store account can only 
purchase Lion once. You cannot then take that App Store account to another 
computer and use it to purchase another copy of Lion! For most people, this is 
a non-issue, but for a corporation with LOTS of Macs deployed, this is a cold 
slap in the face! Now we have to make up an account for each computer, and then 
keep track of which account is used by which computer so we can use it for 
purchases just for that Mac in the future! That is just UGLY! 

Now they DO have a volume licensing deal, where you can buy 20 licenses 
minimum, and then make a DVD installer to deploy it, or create a custom image 
and go that route (not good for upgrades though). So you faithfully buy the 20 
licenses. Oh but whoops! You forgot about the 5 other guys at another campus! 
No problem, you will just buy 5 more, right? After all, you already purchased 
the 20 minimum. NO SIR!!! You must buy ANOTHER 20! 

You would think that Apple would just say, "Oh sorry our bad! Here you can now 
create a corporate app store account and use it as many times as you need to! 
Thanks a bunch for the business!" But instead they are pushing out inadequate 
hacks, and then telling their business customers that this is t he way it is, 
and deal with it. To their credit, the price of Lion is dramatically cheaper, 
so maybe that is much ado about nothing. Still, Apple users have never been 
about the price of the product, but the ease and convenience. 

The Apple of the past has always had a great reputation for thinking things 
through pretty thoroughly. Not anymore though. We used to keep our corporate 
credit card on file at the Apple store, so whenever we wanted to buy something, 
they would just run it. Apple Corporate has put the kibosh on that, forcing 
businesses to apply for terms, and they want to see you financials first. Our 
accounting department says no way, so no net 30 account for us! The upshot is 
we will have to go elsewhere from now on to purchase our Apple products, and 
what is the position of Apple Corporate, the regional manager, the store 
manager and the business manager at the local store? "Oh, well." 

We used to be one of their top customers ever. Now we are no customer, and no 
one at Apple is even flinching. When I see this sort of thing happening to a 
company, I envision a large lake frozen over, but large cracks forming under 
the surface. And this from a lifelong Apple diehard! It is my impression that 
there are people at Apple who have wanted to implement their lame ways of doing 
things for a long time, and now that Steve is gone, they see the opportunity to 
prove what smart guys they are! Instead they are making a bunch of really bad 
choices. In a few years time there may not be a big distinction operationally 
between Apple and an unwieldy behemoth corporation like AT&T. 

Bob
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