Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Geoff Canyon]

For comparison/a look at what's possible, check out Julia:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_(programming_language)

It has some feature overlap with LC, and compiles to be comparable with C on 
many performance measurements. 

Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 13, 2014, at 11:37 PM, Ender Nafi Elekcioglu endern...@keehuna.com 
 wrote:
 
 
 Geoff:
 I just tested python on an ipad and it took about 30 seconds for fib(33).
 
 30 seconds for Python, you say;
 my, my, the plot’s getting thicker and thicker.
 
 I tested with Livecode just now for an up-to-date comparison.
 It’s 11 seconds for that base algorithm on iPhone 5S;
 and 437 *micro* seconds for your optimized algorithm.
 
 Btw, it’s 103 seconds and 3 milliseconds, respectively, on the iPod 4 which 
 is a very weak device, of course.
 
 iPhone 5S is probably more powerful than iPad -depending on its model-
 but even if that is the case, I don’t think it’ll be much worse.
 
 So, in my opinion, it won't be unjust to say that Livecode beats Python on 
 mobile fair and square.
 That’s kinda relief for me, I mean, it increases confidence to my choice of 
 platform.
 
 
 Geoff:
 As long as LC is dynamic (not compiled) it is unlikely to be as fast as C.
 
 Expecting Livecode or any other RAD tool to be as fast as any low-level 
 language, especially C, is a dream, of course; I’m aware of that.
 Even Objective-C can’t be compared to C; I’ve read many showcases where 
 Objective-C developers fall back to C for select demanding tasks.
 
 However, your statement of *dynamic vs compiled* caught my attention.
 
 I have no formal education in computer sciences, whatsoever; so I don’t know 
 the core difference(s) between those concepts.
 
 If I should understand by “compiled” 
 that Livecode won’t be “live” anymore 
 and that I have to wait my script's compilation to see my work;
 I’d happily sacrifice it for any level of performance bump.
 
 But if “dynamic and not-compiled” brings us 
 the convenience of flexible type variables, ease of syntax, scripting the 
 objects individually, etc.;
 well, that’s a different story; I should shut my mouth immediately, then :)
 
 
 ~ Ender
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Re: [OT] Cultural differences (was Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials)

[Devin Asay]

On Feb 13, 2014, at 6:12 PM, Kay C Lan lan.kc.macm...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 I'm certainly glad a smile is a smile and a laugh is a laugh the world
 over. I was reading somewhere recently (can't find it) that another
 universal, almost bordering on language, is the 'Uh' response. i.e. I don't
 understand, I don't comprehend. Supposedly no matter your culture or
 language, we all do this.
 
 On the subject of pigs being clean but we use the term to mean messy, dogs
 being man's best friend but used as an insult, a while back we had a
 gentleman at our local church who worked in management for Disney.  Every
 know and then I'd wryly ask him 'how's that Mickey Mouse outfit treating
 you', he'd smile and tell me very well. One day he confided with me that
 Management at Disney were continually concerned and had failed to ever
 figure out why it was that 'Mickey Mouse outfit' came to refer to something
 dipolar to everything the company so diligently tried to represent.
 
 It's an inexplicable world we live in; which is again why I'm so glad
 smiling and laughter is universal.

Thanks for a *smile* to start my day, Kay. 

Devin



Devin Asay
Office of Digital Humanities
Brigham Young University


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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Ender Nafi Elekcioglu]

Geoff,

I had no idea that benchmarking can be done in *nanosecond* level;
apparently, using *the long seconds*, it was possible.
Thanks for that.

However, as excellent code as your script is; 
I wasn’t trying to find the fastest recursive fibonacci algorithm
neither trying to find a solution for a technical problem.

It was a comparison of raw horsepowers of languages 
and discussing what we can do to see a far faster Livecode in the future.
It’s not a child task, I know.
Especially after reading your post:
 In a sense, applying memo might be considered a cheat, since the point was 
 that LC performance could be improved. Finding a clever way to patch over 
 LC's lack of tail-recursion optimization or memo isn't really the point, 
 but I thought it was valid here to mention that the thing that (I assume) 
 makes javascript faster than LC might be built-in on the JS side, but can 
 be replicated pretty simply on the LC side. 


In the light of these, I'm not sure that your comparison is fair.
I have used same algorithm both in C and Livecode
and the results were ~29ms. vs ~8seconds.
You can find them below.

I wonder what result will produce other languages using your array method.
We all know that there are tons of optimized fib algorithms which cut down the 
processing times in an order of magnitude;
to name a few: matrix, dynamic, space optimized, …


Again, the point is not getting the fastest results, rather comparing the 
results of exactly same algorithms.

Here are my test scripts for C and Livecode, respectively;
they’re pretty straightforward:

int fib(int n)
{
   if (n = 1)
      return n;
   return fib(n-1) + fib(n-2);
}

-- 

function fib n
if n = 1 then
return n
else
return fib(n-1) + fib(n-2)
end if
end fib




~ Ender
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Re: [OT] Cultural differences (was Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials)

[Kay C Lan]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 4:14 AM, J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.comwrote:


 I almost decided to major in cultural anthropology in college, the field
 is so fascinating to me. Humans are a diverse breed, and yet we have far
 more in common with each other than we have differences.

 I'm certainly glad a smile is a smile and a laugh is a laugh the world
over. I was reading somewhere recently (can't find it) that another
universal, almost bordering on language, is the 'Uh' response. i.e. I don't
understand, I don't comprehend. Supposedly no matter your culture or
language, we all do this.

On the subject of pigs being clean but we use the term to mean messy, dogs
being man's best friend but used as an insult, a while back we had a
gentleman at our local church who worked in management for Disney.  Every
know and then I'd wryly ask him 'how's that Mickey Mouse outfit treating
you', he'd smile and tell me very well. One day he confided with me that
Management at Disney were continually concerned and had failed to ever
figure out why it was that 'Mickey Mouse outfit' came to refer to something
dipolar to everything the company so diligently tried to represent.

It's an inexplicable world we live in; which is again why I'm so glad
smiling and laughter is universal.
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Geoff Canyon]

Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 13, 2014, at 3:13 AM, Ender Nafi Elekcioglu endern...@keehuna.com 
 wrote:
 
 I have used same algorithm both in C and Livecode
 and the results were ~29ms. vs ~8seconds.

As long as LC is dynamic (not compiled) it is unlikely to be as fast as C. 240x 
seems large, but I haven't compared to other languages to know what is 
reasonable. 

My point was more in comparison to other non-compiled languages, where tail 
recursion optimization is built in, so they are likely closer to C than LC for 
this. 

I've never heard of a language that memo-izes functions by default, but there 
are languages that make it trivial to do yourself, and that would be good. 

I just tested python on an ipad and it took about 30 seconds for fib(33). 
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Ender Nafi Elekcioglu]

Geoff:
 I just tested python on an ipad and it took about 30 seconds for fib(33).

30 seconds for Python, you say;
my, my, the plot’s getting thicker and thicker.

I tested with Livecode just now for an up-to-date comparison.
It’s 11 seconds for that base algorithm on iPhone 5S;
and 437 *micro* seconds for your optimized algorithm.

Btw, it’s 103 seconds and 3 milliseconds, respectively, on the iPod 4 which is 
a very weak device, of course.

iPhone 5S is probably more powerful than iPad -depending on its model-
but even if that is the case, I don’t think it’ll be much worse.

So, in my opinion, it won't be unjust to say that Livecode beats Python on 
mobile fair and square.
That’s kinda relief for me, I mean, it increases confidence to my choice of 
platform.


Geoff:
 As long as LC is dynamic (not compiled) it is unlikely to be as fast as C.

Expecting Livecode or any other RAD tool to be as fast as any low-level 
language, especially C, is a dream, of course; I’m aware of that.
Even Objective-C can’t be compared to C; I’ve read many showcases where 
Objective-C developers fall back to C for select demanding tasks.

However, your statement of *dynamic vs compiled* caught my attention.

I have no formal education in computer sciences, whatsoever; so I don’t know 
the core difference(s) between those concepts.

If I should understand by “compiled” 
that Livecode won’t be “live” anymore 
and that I have to wait my script's compilation to see my work;
I’d happily sacrifice it for any level of performance bump.

But if “dynamic and not-compiled” brings us 
the convenience of flexible type variables, ease of syntax, scripting the 
objects individually, etc.;
well, that’s a different story; I should shut my mouth immediately, then :)


~ Ender
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Ender Nafi Elekcioglu]

Part 1:

I knew that this thread will turn into a technical help topic :/

Folks, 
please don’t get me wrong, my intention is far from being rude.
I’m not trying to solve a particular issue, here.
Check the subject line, please.

I know I’m the *new guy* 
and I’ve noticed that whenever someone relatively new to Livecode opens a 
somewhat criticizing topic 
either on forums or in this user-list, 
that thread is either ignored or gets away from its main focus quickly.

Let’s assume that I’m a lousy coder with an IQ of just 68
and the reason why that page in the video is not responding is totally my fault 
and lack of knowledge.

Does this change the topic?

I opened this thread to discuss what features are really, truly, objectively 
*essential*.

Does Livecode not need a revamped url library, modern limits for object sizes, 
an engine with enough horsepower for the year 2014 not for 2002?

Does Livecode not need multithreading, benefiting more from GPU?

Does Livecode not need those features *more* than pluggable themes and 
resolution independence?

Which ones are more important for a modern development environment?



~ to be continued...
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Ender Nafi Elekcioglu]

Part 2:

These are not my subjective opinions;
look at this table: 
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
Where is Livecode?
I want to see Livecode, there; I honestly do.
And I’m willing to do anything I can to put Livecode into that page.

EDIT just before posting the message: 
~~~
I’ve shared that link 2 months ago, back then Xojo/RealBasic wasn’t among the 
100 list.
Now, it’s there. The last one. Xojo made its way through. Excellent, just 
excellent. [:sarcasm:]
And we have pluggable themes :/
~~~

Nobody can blame RunRev the team, they are trying to stay alive in a very 
competitive environment.
So they are willingly or involuntarily been directed to a path their customers 
choose.
We want a feature, they’re trying to provide.
Nobody wants that feature, they even don’t notice the need.


This is my business; I’ve built a brand new company two years ago
and I pay my rent and bills and salaries of my co-workers thanks to Livecode.
And I earned enough money to live for past two years.
But you know what?
I have lost 4 times more in value than I’ve earned because of those issues up 
there.

* 7 different projects and counting because of 32000pixels group size limit
People want to see new content loading as soon as they scroll to end; nobody 
wants pagination.

* 9 different *casual* game projects. 
How casual? One of them is a nice clone of this: 
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pinch-peeps/id513847077?mt=8
One of them has just two big turntables, kinda slot machine game.
If I could rotate those tables without wiggling and some minor animations at 
the same time, I could have get that project.

* A big, big government project because of the lack of camera feed overlay, it 
should be an augmented reality app, very simple one.
How about this toddler:
Camera feed with physics- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAEjugyQF-A
Real time filters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxMXOrCoMcI
Yes, Corona is just a toddler compared to the deep roots of Livecode and 
experience of RunRev team.


I could go on but I think I made my point.


What I’m doing now?
I’ve hired a young and sharp fella.
His only job is getting better in Xcode and learning Corona SDK
by replicating current Livecode projects alongside us.
That’s the sole reason why I’m paying to him.
When he’s proficient enough, I’ll transition to those development environments.

The future is in mobile, clear as day.
Either Apple or Android or Tizen or Google Glass or whatever brand-new platform 
which will emerge.

I just can’t afford losing anymore projects.


Kindest Regards,

~ Ender


P.S.:
By the way, if anyone curious what kind of apps I make, check this customer of 
mine:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bitkipark/id811160341?mt=8
Just the linked one is ours; others were outsourced to another company and I’ll 
remake them in a couple of months.
The apps are in Turkish, 
but since we use Latin alphabet 
and most words resemble to english counterparts like Web, Adres {Address} or 
Favori {Favorite}
you won’t face a problem navigating through.
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Richmond]

On 12/02/14 12:47, Ender Nafi Elekcioglu wrote:

Part 1:

I knew that this thread will turn into a technical help topic :/

Folks,
please don’t get me wrong, my intention is far from being rude.
I’m not trying to solve a particular issue, here.
Check the subject line, please.

I know I’m the *new guy*
and I’ve noticed that whenever someone relatively new to Livecode opens a 
somewhat criticizing topic
either on forums or in this user-list,
that thread is either ignored or gets away from its main focus quickly.

Let’s assume that I’m a lousy coder with an IQ of just 68
and the reason why that page in the video is not responding is totally my fault 
and lack of knowledge.

Does this change the topic?

I opened this thread to discuss what features are really, truly, objectively 
*essential*.


What does objectively mean? I have yet to see anything objective 
except stones on the beach.




Does Livecode not need a revamped url library, modern limits for object sizes, 
an engine with enough horsepower for the year 2014 not for 2002?

Does Livecode not need multithreading, benefiting more from GPU?

Does Livecode not need those features *more* than pluggable themes and 
resolution independence?


It depends who you ask.

There is no single answer. After all; my Livecode and your Livecode are 
already 2 different Livecodes: what about all the others ?


Which ones are more important for a modern development environment?



~ to be continued...
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Richmond]

On 12/02/14 12:48, Ender Nafi Elekcioglu wrote:

Part 2:

These are not my subjective opinions;
look at this table: 
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html


No; they are not your subjective opinions; they are somebody else's 
subjective opinions, which they are trying

to palm off as objective.

As soon as I see the word Standard I start be asking these sorts of 
questions:


1. How 'standardised' is this 'standard' (i.e. how many reputable bodies 
acknowledge and adhere to it) ?


2. How well qualified are the would-be standardisers who have prepared 
this 'standard' (and by 'qualified' I don't necessarily
mean bits of paper from institutions, that can also cover experience and 
so on) ?


For instance, the Unicode standard is a well-established standard 
developed by very many well-qualified people
and backed up by a very large number of people, institutions and 
computer systems.


Notwithstanding how standardised the Unicode standard has become, that 
does not mean that we can use the word 'objective'

anywhere near it.

For the sake or argument: the TIOBE ratings are NOT ratings of use of 
ALL the programming languages/packages that are available,
they are ratings for a set of programming languages/packets that the 
TIOBE people have decided to track. Therefore the TIOBE ratings

are only useful if one wants to compare the members of that set.

The ratings are based on the number of skilled engineers world-wide, 
courses and third party vendors. 


Wait a minute. What does skilled engineers mean? Talk about 'subjective'.

Courses; hmm; I taught Livecode to 10 Primary-level Bulgarians over 6 
weeks last Summer: does that constitute a course, or just a

few loosely structured lessons?

Third Party Vendors: why does that pop a progging lanuage further up the 
ratings? There could be 25 third party vendors selling
RC (RichmondCard; the programming language of yesterday, today) and 
nobody is buying the thing, while Runtime Revolution has, as far as I'm 
aware, 2 third party vendors; Mirye and something in China, but their 
sales could be vast; and mainly directly from them!


Popular search engines such as Google, Bing, Yahoo!, Wikipedia, Amazon, 
YouTube and Baidu are used to calculate the ratings.


I am a single programmer; but if I manage to pump out 1,000,000 mentions 
of my work with the name of the progging language
I use in a month that will show up as much higher than the company down 
the road that employs 1,000 programmers who have

almost no web-presence at all.

Where is Livecode?
I want to see Livecode, there; I honestly do.
And I’m willing to do anything I can to put Livecode into that page.

EDIT just before posting the message:
~~~
I’ve shared that link 2 months ago, back then Xojo/RealBasic wasn’t among the 
100 list.
Now, it’s there. The last one. Xojo made its way through. Excellent, just 
excellent. [:sarcasm:]
And we have pluggable themes :/
~~~

Nobody can blame RunRev the team, they are trying to stay alive in a very 
competitive environment.


NO one should not blame the RunRev team; I have a feeling that they are 
well aware of what rubbish rating tend to be.



So they are willingly or involuntarily been directed to a path their customers 
choose.
We want a feature, they’re trying to provide.
Nobody wants that feature, they even don’t notice the need.


This is my business; I’ve built a brand new company two years ago
and I pay my rent and bills and salaries of my co-workers thanks to Livecode.
And I earned enough money to live for past two years.
But you know what?
I have lost 4 times more in value than I’ve earned because of those issues up 
there.

* 7 different projects and counting because of 32000pixels group size limit
People want to see new content loading as soon as they scroll to end; nobody 
wants pagination.

* 9 different *casual* game projects.
How casual? One of them is a nice clone of this: 
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pinch-peeps/id513847077?mt=8
One of them has just two big turntables, kinda slot machine game.
If I could rotate those tables without wiggling and some minor animations at 
the same time, I could have get that project.

* A big, big government project because of the lack of camera feed overlay, it 
should be an augmented reality app, very simple one.
How about this toddler:
Camera feed with physics- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAEjugyQF-A
Real time filters - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxMXOrCoMcI
Yes, Corona is just a toddler compared to the deep roots of Livecode and 
experience of RunRev team.


I could go on but I think I made my point.


What I’m doing now?
I’ve hired a young and sharp fella.
His only job is getting better in Xcode and learning Corona SDK
by replicating current Livecode projects alongside us.
That’s the sole reason why I’m paying to him.
When he’s proficient enough, I’ll transition to those development environments.

The future is in mobile, clear as day.
Either Apple or Android or Tizen 

Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Ender Nafi Elekcioglu]

Woof, woof?
Richmond, really?
Jumping up and woof, woof?

If I understand wrong, then no need to read the rest, just ignore it;

but IF I am the target of that statement,
you should know that calling someone as a dog is a very, very, VERY, VERY 
harsh, petty, offensive insult in my language  culture.

I didn’t insult or directly target any member of this user list, neither 
personally or generally.

Maybe you should learn some manners?



~ Ender


From: Richmond Richmond
Reply: Richmond richmondmathew...@gmail.com
Date: February 12, 2014 at 14:30:25
To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Subject:  Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials  
So, before jumping up and going Woof, Woof in such a way, it is 
perhaps not a bad thing to think about what word such as 'objective',
'standard' and 'ratings' mean.
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Ender Nafi Elekcioglu]

Against my intentions and alongside my predictions,
this thread got far away from its subject.

I sincerely apologize for that.

I study Objective-C with my fellow co-worker when I’m able to find time
and I can’t desist from thinking that how an inefficient language it is.
Livecode with its simplicity yet power deserves more popularity.
Popularity brings money, money brings resources as time and developer count, 
resources bring a more sophisticated development environment.
I don’t listen Beyonce, either; I’m a long-time Corelli fan ;-)


Also, Richmond is right about many -not all, in my opinion, but many- things.
Especially about the definitions of “standard” and “objective vs subjective”.



Kindest Regards,

~ Ender
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Richard Gaskin]

Ender Nafi asked:

 Does Livecode not need a revamped url library

It does indeed, on the Roap Map under Queued.

 modern limits for object sizes

Current object sizes go up to about 32' - how big do you need them?

 an engine with enough horsepower for the year 2014 not for 2002?

Always a fan of performance boosts, but to move that forward let's look 
at the areas of greatest interest:  what would you like to see faster, 
text manipulation, math, object rendering, or something else?


 Does Livecode not need multithreading, benefiting more from GPU?

At the engine level perhaps through compiler optimization.  But we've 
been protected from most race conditions in xTalk thus far, so while I 
like the idea of threading we need both a clean syntax proposal for 
managing the thread overhead and strong learning materials so folks 
don't just run off and start using them without the sort of deeper 
planning thread work benefits from, wondering why nothing is happening 
in the order they'd anticipated.


 Does Livecode not need those features *more* than pluggable themes
 and resolution independence?

The latter is done, no?  And I believe pluggable themes are in development.

 Which ones are more important for a modern development environment?

Each of them, depending on who you ask. :)  Many of these are in 
development now, while there are some aspects we can contribute to:


- What tasks would we like to see performance gains with first?

- What would a syntax for threading look like?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
 Follow me on Twitter:  http://twitter.com/FourthWorldSys


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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Trevor DeVore]

Hi Ender,

Thanks for bringing up this discussion. Clearly you want the best for
LiveCode and that is good. Having discussions on what is most important
can often be frustrating as everyone has different experiences and
opinions. Just a couple of things I would like to mention after having read
through your messages. I'm trying to speak directly to your original point
about pet vs. essential features and helping RunRev decide what to
focus on.

My understanding is that you don't want the details of what can or can't be
done to water down your main point. Hence the frustration when people
mention workarounds or suggest you are doing something incorrectly. While
understandable, when you use specific examples to buttress your argument
then I think it is fair that people question you if they have had a
different experience.

In addition, the discussion is about deciding which features RunRev should
be working on and which they shouldn't. When an argument is being made that
a tool absolutely needs a feature because it can't do X or Y then I don't
think it is unreasonable for people to question whether or not X or Y
really can or can't be done.

For example, you mention that resolution independence can be addressed by
the developer and that the 32,000 pixel limit is keeping you from getting
projects. My experience is the exact opposite. There is no way for me to
work around all of the resolution independence issues in LiveCode (Mac and
Windows) but I've been working around the 32,000 pixel limit for years.
Originally I used the data grid. Now I have a newer control that is more
flexible and has been optimized. I can gradually load in records from the
web without having to resort to pagination. (One tangent we could go down
here is how hard it is to share and maintain custom controls with the
community in LiveCode.)

In recent memory, I've only had one 32,000 pixel issue that I couldn't work
around. The other day a customer sent in an error report because my app
choked on an image that was 41,584 pixels high. It was a large web page he
had taken a screen capture of. He wasn't surprised it didn't work and when
I went to create an image in Photoshop to test with Photoshop warned me the
image might not work in other apps.

Do I want the 32,000 limit removed? Of course I do. But it isn't a
show-stopper for me. Resolution independence on the other hand is a big
deal (to me). We are different developers with different (immediate) needs.
Your pet need may be my essential and vice-versa.

One other issue you brought up was the URL library. If I read correctly,
you are saying that an updated URL library isn't on RunRev's radar. But a
reworked URL and socket library is part of the roadmap. It is currently
listed under the queue at http://livecode.com/community/roadmap/. I'm
looking forward to this as much as anyone. I've spent more time then I
would have liked working on, and around the URL functionality in LiveCode
for over 10 years now.

So what is my point? I think the purpose of your post is a great one (how
the community can help RunRev focus on what is most important). But perhaps
taking a hard line on specific features should be done outside of the
primary discussion so that people don't get lost in the specifics while a
framework for thinking about the problem is still being worked on. My
impression is that it just dilutes the message.

If you think you can help RunRev better focus their resources, my
suggestion would be to come up with a system for collecting, categorizing,
and managing these features first. Then you can start trying to determine
what should be considered pet vs. essential.

-- 
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Learning Systems
www.screensteps.com-www.clarify-it.com
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Ender Nafi Elekcioglu]

Richard:
 Does Livecode not need a revamped url library 

It does indeed, on the Roap Map under Queued. 

I don’t know how I missed that; I’ve checked again and yes, it’s right there 
and it’s excellent news :)


Richard:
 modern limits for object sizes 

Current object sizes go up to about 32' - how big do you need them?

The problem is the limits of group objects, here.
40’ images or graphics are useless most of the time, I know. 
But groups are must-have for scrolling, both on mobile and on desktop.
Think a video news app for iPhone 5 like Vimeo
or Twitter app for Mac desktop.
Let’s assume each thumb is 300px high.
Then the developer would have been limited to ~100 videos.
It’s not much.
I did a quick test and it took 8 fast scrolling flick to get the 100th video in 
Vimeo for iOS.
Considering a Twitter-like news reader app; it’s really a tight limit.


Richard:
 an engine with enough horsepower for the year 2014 not for 2002? 

Always a fan of performance boosts, but to move that forward let's look 
at the areas of greatest interest: what would you like to see faster, 
text manipulation, math, object rendering, or something else?
- What tasks would we like to see performance gains with first? 

You’re right, Richard, another notion which should be defined correctly.
Which one should be faster” is a good question, indeed.


Richard:

- What would a syntax for threading look like? 

Once, we discussed this issue with Bernd.
He said that he wouldn’t want to go through all the hassle of managing threads.
It’s not an easy task, not implementing rather using the already implemented 
multithread feature.



Regards,

~ Ender
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Ender Nafi Elekcioglu]

Trevor:
So what is my point? I think the purpose of your post is a great one (how 
the community can help RunRev focus on what is most important).

If you think you can help RunRev better focus their resources, my 
suggestion would be to come up with a system for collecting, categorizing, 
and managing these features first. Then you can start trying to determine 
what should be considered pet vs. essential. 

Maybe, a voting system can be built within the official Livecode webpage.
Like Monte’s system on mergext’com.
He decides which external to build according to this.
We can vote up or down what we need and expect from Livecode.
This might help to the team in their decisions.
It can be done after finishing the stretch goals 
or maybe even during this period since Kevin stated that they can allocate some 
resources for certain things.


Trevor: 
While understandable, when you use specific examples to buttress your argument 
then I think it is fair that people question you if they have had a 
different experience.

That’s right, it was me who opened the way to discussion getting watered down 
to specific examples.


Trevor:
You mention that resolution independence can be addressed by 
the developer and that the 32,000 pixel limit is keeping you from getting 
projects. My experience is the exact opposite. There is no way for me to 
work around all of the resolution independence issues in LiveCode (Mac and 
Windows) but I've been working around the 32,000 pixel limit for years.

That was my point, Trevor; this is why I thought such a topic should be opened.
If the above is the case, then 32’ px limit shouldn’t be considered as 
*essential*.
I need, you don’t; it’s a pet of me and it shouldn’t be prioritized.
At least, according to my definition proposals.


Trevor:
One other issue you brought up was the URL library. If I read correctly, 
you are saying that an updated URL library isn't on RunRev's radar. But a 
reworked URL and socket library is part of the roadmap.

Yes, that was my mistake; I don’t know how I missed that entry in the Queued 
part of the Roadmap.


Best,

~ Ender
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Richard Gaskin]

Ender Nafi wrote:


Richard:

modern limits for object sizes


Current object sizes go up to about 32' - how big do you need them?

The problem is the limits of group objects, here.
40’ images or graphics are useless most of the time, I know.
But groups are must-have for scrolling, both on mobile and on desktop.
Think a video news app for iPhone 5 like Vimeo
or Twitter app for Mac desktop.
Let’s assume each thumb is 300px high.
Then the developer would have been limited to ~100 videos.
It’s not much.
I did a quick test and it took 8 fast scrolling flick to get the 100th video in 
Vimeo for iOS.
Considering a Twitter-like news reader app; it’s really a tight limit.


Many years ago I submitted a request for this myself:
http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1858

But since then, I find myself very much on the fence about it, as it's 
not quite as simple as just changing the addressing used for rects.


Trevor's earlier post addresses this well:
http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2014-February/198346.html

One of the challenges here is the buffer size:  LC provides very smooth 
scrolling for groups because it buffers the group's contents.  Creating 
a buffer of say 64' on a side would take a tremendous amount of memory 
in any application.


Most apps handle this as Trevor describes, similar to how his DataGrid 
works, with portions of the displayed content paging in and out of 
memory as needed on the fly.


Twitter's a really good example there:  in my feed it only goes back as 
far as about 14 hrs, and won't even attempt to load anything more than 
that.  And for the content it does show, it makes separate requests for 
chunks of about 20 or 30 at a time, updating the scrollbar each time as 
it goes.


Twitter's UI would be well suited for LC's DataGrid.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com
 Follow me on Twitter:  http://twitter.com/FourthWorldSys

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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Peter Haworth]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Richard Gaskin
ambassa...@fourthworld.comwrote:

 Twitter's UI would be well suited for LC's DataGrid.


The Datagrid does have a way to request records form the user when needed.
 I think the property that controls is dgNumberOfRecords, described in
Section 9 of the Datagrid manual.  It does make a big difference when
loading large amounts of data into the datagrid.


Pete
lcSQL Software http://www.lcsql.com
Home of lcStackBrowser http://www.lcsql.com/lcstackbrowser.html and
SQLiteAdmin http://www.lcsql.com/sqliteadmin.html
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[J. Landman Gay]

On 2/12/14, 6:48 AM, Ender Nafi Elekcioglu wrote:

you should know that calling someone as a dog is a very, very, VERY,
VERY harsh, petty, offensive insult in my language  culture.


I think it's easy for westerners to forget that, since over here a dog 
is just another animal with no special significance. Our insults tend to 
be more sexually-related, which goes to show how juvenile our culture 
is. Genitalia are insulting, which has always puzzled me a bit.


As for Richmond's manners, well, he has his own. But I'm pretty sure he 
was oblivious to the cultural insult. His insults are far more universal 
in nature, though still mostly unintentional.


Once I met him in person I understood. He's a pussycat (cultural 
clarification: pussycat is a harmless, playful person, even though the 
first half of the word could be construed as a sexual insult. Americans 
are strange.)


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Richmond]

On 12/02/14 21:04, J. Landman Gay wrote:

On 2/12/14, 6:48 AM, Ender Nafi Elekcioglu wrote:

you should know that calling someone as a dog is a very, very, VERY,
VERY harsh, petty, offensive insult in my language  culture.


I think it's easy for westerners to forget that, since over here a dog 
is just another animal with no special significance. Our insults tend 
to be more sexually-related, which goes to show how juvenile our 
culture is. Genitalia are insulting, which has always puzzled me a bit.


As for Richmond's manners, well, he has his own. But I'm pretty sure 
he was oblivious to the cultural insult. His insults are far more 
universal in nature, though still mostly unintentional.


Once I met him in person I understood. He's a pussycat (cultural 
clarification: pussycat is a harmless, playful person, even though 
the first half of the word could be construed as a sexual insult. 
Americans are strange.)




I did, actually send Ender a private message, and I'm sure that he can 
vouch we are the very best of friends: hence his volte face in the

Use-List.

Richmond.

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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Ender Nafi Elekcioglu]

Once again, I hit that 15kb. barrier.

Repeating myself without quoting Jacque’s reply; I hope this will be short 
enough for the mail-list :)


Hi Jacque,

Actually we talked about it in detail with Richmond.
I already removed the post from nabble; 
pity that I can’t remove it from your individual inboxes, too.

Cultural differences can be confusing.
Names of genital organs are little insulting, if any, in our culture, for 
example.
They are been used actively as part of small-talk, vulgar;
but most of the time, they mean close to “buddy, pal, …”
Funny, isn’t it?


Whereas “pig” is condescending, “ox” means dumb, “dog” is pretty insulting.
I can understand “pig”, both Jews and Muslims consider it as dirty and 
un-kosher/not-halal.
I just don’t know why “dog” is a curse.
Believe me, it’s really harsh to a degree that it’s one of few reasons which 
make me physically fight with someone.
It’s hard-coded to my neurons, collateral effects of my culture.
In fact, I love dogs as animals; they’re cute, loyal, fun, smart.
But as a swear, it’s rough.
And I’m not a touchy guy, usually don’t take swears serious; they’re just 
childish for me not a reason to argue.

I should have thought about the nuances between cultures.
That was clearly my mistake.


Another important thing about this issue is *being over-touchy / short-tempered 
of Middle Eastern people*.
Richmond expressed this very well and I’m quoting from him, I hope he’s ok with 
it:

What never ceases to amaze me is how it is perfectly acceptable for non-WASP 
cultures to make supposedly off-colour remarks about WASP culture,
while the other way round is jumped on like crazy whether it is or is intended 
to be offensive in reality or not


He’s absolutely right.
We call this behavior as “playing the aggrieved card”.
It’s a common approach in this part of world.
Even the richest businessmen and strongest politicians use this.
They use because it’s proven as effective and it’s part of our culture, how 
we’ve been raised.
Hard-coded, if I may.

I was completely against it, yet I did it myself
Because I belong to this culture and my culture’s shackles have bounded me 
since my childhood.
Despite how much I try to free myself from those, I can’t succeed always.
Shame for me :/


~ Ender
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[dunbarx]

Ender.


I was the cause of the previous flame war. Caught me by surprise as well.


I have no doubt of your integrity, and that is all that matters. These hassles 
occur now and then. There is no reason to belabor this. We are glad to have you 
in this community.


Back to LC. Now that is something we can all agree needs disciplining.


Craig



-Original Message-
From: Ender Nafi Elekcioglu endern...@keehuna.com
To: LiveCode Forums use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Sent: Wed, Feb 12, 2014 2:37 pm
Subject: Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials


Once again, I hit that 15kb. barrier.

Repeating myself without quoting Jacque’s reply; I hope this will be short 
enough for the mail-list :)


Hi Jacque,

Actually we talked about it in detail with Richmond.
I already removed the post from nabble; 
pity that I can’t remove it from your individual inboxes, too.

Cultural differences can be confusing.
Names of genital organs are little insulting, if any, in our culture, for 
example.
They are been used actively as part of small-talk, vulgar;
but most of the time, they mean close to “buddy, pal, …”
Funny, isn’t it?


Whereas “pig” is condescending, “ox” means dumb, “dog” is pretty insulting.
I can understand “pig”, both Jews and Muslims consider it as dirty and 
un-kosher/not-halal.
I just don’t know why “dog” is a curse.
Believe me, it’s really harsh to a degree that it’s one of few reasons which 
make me physically fight with someone.
It’s hard-coded to my neurons, collateral effects of my culture.
In fact, I love dogs as animals; they’re cute, loyal, fun, smart.
But as a swear, it’s rough.
And I’m not a touchy guy, usually don’t take swears serious; they’re just 
childish for me not a reason to argue.

I should have thought about the nuances between cultures.
That was clearly my mistake.


Another important thing about this issue is *being over-touchy / short-tempered 
of Middle Eastern people*.
Richmond expressed this very well and I’m quoting from him, I hope he’s ok with 
it:

What never ceases to amaze me is how it is perfectly acceptable for non-WASP 
cultures to make supposedly off-colour remarks about WASP culture,
while the other way round is jumped on like crazy whether it is or is intended 
to be offensive in reality or not


He’s absolutely right.
We call this behavior as “playing the aggrieved card”.
It’s a common approach in this part of world.
Even the richest businessmen and strongest politicians use this.
They use because it’s proven as effective and it’s part of our culture, how 
we’ve been raised.
Hard-coded, if I may.

I was completely against it, yet I did it myself
Because I belong to this culture and my culture’s shackles have bounded me 
since 
my childhood.
Despite how much I try to free myself from those, I can’t succeed always.
Shame for me :/


~ Ender
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[OT] Cultural differences (was Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials)

[J. Landman Gay]

Ender,

I marked this as OT because we've gone off-track, but this is 
fascinating to me and I'm glad your reply was still in my inbox.



Whereas “pig” is condescending, “ox” means dumb, “dog” is pretty insulting.


Pig here means dirty, sloppy, unclean, even though pigs are naturally 
very clean animals. This place is a pig sty means your house is a 
mess. Ox means dumb, same as you. A dog is just a dog, except for female 
dogs which are bitches. Bitch here is a so commonly used for a 
querrelous woman (or a man's property) that I've met people who don't 
know it actually refers to dogs.



In fact, I love dogs as animals; they’re cute, loyal, fun, smart.
But as a swear, it’s rough.


Another thing westerners are puzzled by is the insult about shoes. To us 
they are just apparel. I do understand that shoes pick up street dirt 
and are unclean, so it makes sense I guess. But if you threw a shoe at 
me, I'd be offended by the gesture but not by the item you chose to do 
it with.



I should have thought about the nuances between cultures.
That was clearly my mistake.


Don't feel too bad, we all do it. We are products of our culture, which 
is taught to us before we can even think about it. Americans are 
typically thought of as rude and after visiting the UK, I see why. We 
are perceived as brash and self-centered. One example is that we 
typically don't use please as often as they do in the UK, because in 
America that would be perceived as constant pleading, and perhaps a sign 
of insecurity. In the UK it is simply a polite way of speaking. When I 
was visiting, I tried to remember to say please more often than usual, 
just to fit in. I probably failed.



Another important thing about this issue is being over-touchy /
short-tempered of Middle Eastern people.


I suspect that part is more human than cultural. I know a lot of people 
here that behave that way too, and there are areas of the U.S. where 
criticising their culture or patriotism enrages them. I think it goes 
back to our tribal roots. The community is the bedrock of our identity, 
and insulting it also insults us personally by association.


I almost decided to major in cultural anthropology in college, the field 
is so fascinating to me. Humans are a diverse breed, and yet we have far 
more in common with each other than we have differences.


And I am glad this conversation occurred, because it makes us all more 
aware. One thing is a disadvantage to you though: your English is so 
good that it is easy to forget you live so far away. :)


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials - Found word(s) remove list in the Text body

[dunbarx]

It was on the forum. Worth a look just for the car-accident-rubbernecking value.


Craig



-Original Message-
From: Bob Sneidar bobsnei...@iotecdigital.com
To: How to use LiveCode use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Sent: Wed, Feb 12, 2014 3:46 pm
Subject: Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials - Found word(s) remove list 
in the Text body


There was a flame war? And I wasn’t involved??? I’m slipping…

Bob


On Feb 12, 2014, at 11:48 , dunb...@aol.commailto:dunb...@aol.com wrote:

Ender.


I was the cause of the previous flame war. Caught me by surprise as well.

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RE: [OT] Cultural differences (was Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials)

[Ralph DiMola]

J,

Very good points!!

I spent 1.5 years in Japan. I was having cocktails with some Tokyo locals
and I was tired and wanted to be able to accomplish what I promised the next
day and refused a tumbler glass of whiskey from Karamura San late in the
night. I went back to the hotel and found out the next day that I insulted
him BIG-TIME. Moral: You can't always know local customs but learn from your
mistakes. I bought him a tumbler of whiskey the next time we went out and
all was forgiven. On the thank you thingy... In Japan the more random
Gazimuss (spelling?) one places in a conversation the more polite you are.
And to be Really polite end the sentence with gazimusss and
stretch those s's out. I think the vast majority of us try to acclimate to
local customs so we can respect other cultures and not insult the locals.
But in the end it's one of those live and learn things.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of J. Landman Gay
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 3:14 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Subject: [OT] Cultural differences (was Re: Defining Pet Features and
Essentials)

Ender,

I marked this as OT because we've gone off-track, but this is fascinating to
me and I'm glad your reply was still in my inbox.

 Whereas pig is condescending, ox means dumb, dog is pretty
insulting.

Pig here means dirty, sloppy, unclean, even though pigs are naturally very
clean animals. This place is a pig sty means your house is a mess. Ox
means dumb, same as you. A dog is just a dog, except for female dogs which
are bitches. Bitch here is a so commonly used for a querrelous woman (or a
man's property) that I've met people who don't know it actually refers to
dogs.

 In fact, I love dogs as animals; they're cute, loyal, fun, smart.
 But as a swear, it's rough.

Another thing westerners are puzzled by is the insult about shoes. To us
they are just apparel. I do understand that shoes pick up street dirt and
are unclean, so it makes sense I guess. But if you threw a shoe at me, I'd
be offended by the gesture but not by the item you chose to do it with.

 I should have thought about the nuances between cultures.
 That was clearly my mistake.

Don't feel too bad, we all do it. We are products of our culture, which is
taught to us before we can even think about it. Americans are typically
thought of as rude and after visiting the UK, I see why. We are perceived as
brash and self-centered. One example is that we typically don't use please
as often as they do in the UK, because in America that would be perceived as
constant pleading, and perhaps a sign of insecurity. In the UK it is simply
a polite way of speaking. When I was visiting, I tried to remember to say
please more often than usual, just to fit in. I probably failed.

 Another important thing about this issue is being over-touchy / 
 short-tempered of Middle Eastern people.

I suspect that part is more human than cultural. I know a lot of people here
that behave that way too, and there are areas of the U.S. where criticising
their culture or patriotism enrages them. I think it goes back to our tribal
roots. The community is the bedrock of our identity, and insulting it also
insults us personally by association.

I almost decided to major in cultural anthropology in college, the field is
so fascinating to me. Humans are a diverse breed, and yet we have far more
in common with each other than we have differences.

And I am glad this conversation occurred, because it makes us all more
aware. One thing is a disadvantage to you though: your English is so good
that it is easy to forget you live so far away. :)

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Geoff Canyon]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 6:59 AM, Ender Nafi Elekcioglu 
endern...@keehuna.com wrote:

 Try to calculate a recursive fib(33) under 0.5 second
 {it's 14 seconds on a brand new Macbook Pro Retina, where it's ~100ms. for
 Javascript.}


I'll take that bet:

local fibArray

function fib N
   if N = 0 or N = 1 then return N
   if fibArray[N] is empty then put fib(N-2) + fib(N-1) into fibArray[N]
   return fibArray[N]
end fib

on mouseUp
   put the long seconds into T
   get fib(33)
   put it  the long seconds - T
end mouseUp

Puts:

3524578 0.22

It would be *really* good if LC supported co-routines, tail-recursion
optimization, and native memo-ization of functions, but it's often not hard
to memo-ize manually. Of course in this case recursion is unhelpful to
begin with, but I'm pretending that it's unavoidable since it's the reason
for the example.
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Mark Wieder]

Geoff-

Close. Your first array element is empty. Right answer, though.

local fibArray

function fib N
if (N = 1 or N = 2) then
   put 1 into fibArray[N]
   return 1
end if
if fibArray[N] is empty then put fib(N-2) + fib(N-1) into fibArray[N]
return fibArray[N]
 end fib

on mouseUp
local T
put empty into field 1
put the long seconds into T
get fib(33)
put it  the long seconds - T
-- display the array
repeat with N=1 to 33
   put N  :  fibArray[N]  cr after field 1
end repeat
end mouseUp

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Geoff Canyon]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 9:48 PM, Geoff Canyon gcan...@gmail.com wrote:

 3524578 0.22


Ha, let me not cheat:

on mouseUp
   clearFib
   put the long seconds into T
   get fib(33)
   put it  the long seconds - T
end mouseUp

local fibArray

function fib N
   if N = 0 or N = 1 then return N
   if fibArray[N] is empty then put fib(N-1) + fib(N-2) into fibArray[N]
   return fibArray[N]
end fib

on clearFib
   delete variable fibArray
end clearFib

Puts:

3524578 0.000357

Not *as* fast as the original, but still very fast.
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Geoff Canyon]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 10:41 PM, Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.netwrote:

 Close. Your first array element is empty. Right answer, though.


What's in the array isn't important, really -- it's just a manual form of
the memo feature some languages offer. fibArray[1] is empty, as is
fibArray[0], because the function short-cuts both of those arguments and
simply returns them. I literally went online and searched recursive
fibonacci function and copy-pasted, then added the memo feature. I think
it's more honest to do that, since the exact function isn't really the
point.

In a sense, applying memo might be considered a cheat, since the point was
that LC performance could be improved. Finding a clever way to patch over
LC's lack of tail-recursion optimization or memo isn't really the point,
but I thought it was valid here to mention that the thing that (I assume)
makes javascript faster than LC might be built-in on the JS side, but can
be replicated pretty simply on the LC side.
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Mark Wieder]

Geoff-

Wednesday, February 12, 2014, 9:20:32 PM, you wrote:

 What's in the array isn't important, really -- it's just a manual form of
...

Ah, never mind. I see you're priming the array with a 0 value in the
first element and then treating the array as if it's 1-based rather
than 0-based. That'll do just fine.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Kevin Miller]

There must be a way we can serve you better here. That specific case
defies belief - it does not cost that amount of money to produce that
feature, nothing like it. Our development team is highly trained and very,
very efficient these days. Its just too small to defocus from delivering
the KS goals. It does not cost all that much to increase it. We¹re
probably better placed than anyone else to do that and provide crowd
source features rapidly and to a high standard. There are various
considerations though that need further thought though. I will debate this
further in house and see if we can come up with something very simple that
is better than what we currently do. No promises until we¹ve done that of
course. More soon.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@runrev.com ~ http://www.runrev.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can code




On 11/02/2014 12:59, Ender Nafi Elekcioglu endern...@keehuna.com wrote:

This was part of another topic, but I didn¹t want to digress it, so
opened a new thread.

I think the issue is important as customers have an effect on the future
roadmaps of companies.
People wanted *theming* and *resolution independence*, RunRev provided
it. 
Nobody seems to care about size constraints of objects, so there isn¹t
any plans about it.

The definition should be, in my opinion, as:
Pet features are those which can already be achieved via pure Livecode;
where Essential features cannot.

Andrew stated: 
³Any kind of timelines or updates on any of the stretch goals other than
theming/res independence would be great. ... it is also the least
important to folks who aren't doing mac or mobile dev.²
and said that he would sell a piece of his liver for the non-blocking url
commands. 

I couldn¹t agree more, even I¹m an iOS-only developer, I don¹t need and
don¹t use *fullscreenMode*


The thing is, resources are scarce; time and efforts of RunRev team
should be distributed wisely.

There is a reason why we call some features as *pet*.
One can love them, desperately need them;
but some others don¹t and those can be achieved already via pure Livecode
script; 
than those are not *essential*.

Some example scenarios:

I have lost a 16.000$ project for one lacking feature: *Rotating an image
without wiggling*.
Funny, isn¹t it? 
16.000$! 
I could happily donate one fourth of it to RunRev
in exchange of a timed handler consisting ³set the angle of tImage to Š²
command which works right.

But that doesn¹t qualify it as an *essential* feature for two reasons:
* Most of you don¹t need it, even don¹t notice its absence.
* Livecode already rotates the image, just not perfect.
It¹s a pet feature; pet of me, for one.

Theming cannot be considered as an *essential*,
use a couple of png¹s, it¹s done and done.

*fullscreenMode* cannot be considered as an *essential*.
Read the resolution of the screen, choose appropriate image resources,
resize and relocate your controls, upscale or downscale your font-sizes,
easy peasy. 




Transparent unicode support is an essential;
there¹s no way to find a work-around other than using an external, even
externals are not sufficient most of the time.


Raw performance is an essential;
there¹s no way to speed things up beyond the engine¹s limits
and they¹re fairly low.
Try to calculate a recursive fib(33) under 0.5 second
{it¹s 14 seconds on a brand new Macbook Pro Retina, where it¹s ~100ms.
for Javascript.} 
or taking a snapshot of screen on mobile under 40ms
{it¹s +300ms. even on an iPhone 5S}.


Using int32 for object sizes are essential;
there¹s no way to scroll content without using groups
and there¹s no way to increase a group¹s size limit in pixels.
It's not 1998 anymore, resolutions of device are not 800*600.
32thousand pixels for a group is clearly not enough for nearly any
content. 


A revamped url library is essential;
One cannot cancel a download process in mobile.
If it¹s started, it¹s started and will continue, end of story.
One cannot update the UI while pulling the content from the server.
All commands are blocking.

Combine the last 2 of these examples and try to develop another Circa, NY
Times, Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter, Š

I¹m giving only mobile examples, because this is my field.
I¹m sure more examples can be given from desktop use cases.



Interestingly, these are not among the future plans of RunRev except
unicode thing. 


Back to my definition proposal;

IF (the number of developersWhoNeed  the number of
developersWhoDontNeed) OR \
(can_It_Be_Done_With_Pure_Livecode) THEN
put ³Pet Feature²
ELSE 
put ³Essential Feature²
END IF 




Best, 


~ Ender
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Ender Nafi Elekcioglu]

Kevin,

My point was, RunRev shouldn’t lose its focus.
We are programmers, after all; somethings should be done by us.
No need to be lazy.
You should provide us what we can't achieve by ourselves.

Raw performance, 
unicode, 
a modern set of commands to interact with servers,
an up-to-date graphics engine, I don’t know, there are many other things

Once I opened a thread regarding integrating Sprite Kit of Xcode.
I learned my lesson from experienced Livecoders that time.
RunRev shouldn’t be distracted by platform-specific features and shouldn’t lose 
its focus.

As I said and as you know well, resources are scarce.
I think you ought to ask yourselves while drawing your roadmap;
what feature is really important, serves better in the future, serves the 
majority of your existing and *potential* customers.

Give us performance, then we’ll build our own particle-effects engine.
You shouldn’t be bothered with that.

Give us a modern graphics engine which benefits maximum of GPU, 
then we’ll build our own physics routines, animation algorithms,
even dynamic blurred backgrounds :)


Technology advances rapidly, you can’t risk of missing the train 



Regards,

~ Ender

On February 11, 2014 at 15:08:55, Kevin Miller (ke...@runrev.com) wrote:

There must be a way we can serve you better here. That specific case  
defies belief - it does not cost that amount of money to produce that  
feature, nothing like it. Our development team is highly trained and very,  
very efficient these days. Its just too small to defocus from delivering  
the KS goals. It does not cost all that much to increase it. We¹re  
probably better placed than anyone else to do that and provide crowd  
source features rapidly and to a high standard. There are various  
considerations though that need further thought though. I will debate this  
further in house and see if we can come up with something very simple that  
is better than what we currently do. No promises until we¹ve done that of  
course. More soon.  

Kind regards,  

Kevin  

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@runrev.com ~ http://www.runrev.com/  
LiveCode: Everyone can code  
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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Gerry Orkin]

Ender wrote:

 One cannot update the UI while pulling the content from the server. 

Er, yes you can. I'm doing it.

Here's a screencast of it in action:

http://quick.as/qyvjtr47

g




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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Gerry Orkin]

And here it is with 2 files downloading concurrently:

http://quick.as/yn6aiq18

Gerry


On 12 Feb 2014, at 12:38 pm, Gerry Orkin gerry.or...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ender wrote:
 
 One cannot update the UI while pulling the content from the server. 
 
 Er, yes you can. I'm doing it.
 
 Here's a screencast of it in action:
 
 http://quick.as/qyvjtr47
 
 g
 
 
 


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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[Ender Nafi Elekcioglu]

Gerry hi,

Apparently I couldn’t express myself clearly, 
please excuse my lack of linguistic proficiency.

By *updating UI*, I didn’t mean giving visual feedback to the user, which I’m 
already using;
I meant responding to user’s interactions like tap, scroll, pinch, etc.
and act accordingly as opening a menu, scrolling the group, navigating to 
another card…

Here is a quick example:
https://vimeo.com/86476730

It’s password protected to keep non-Livecoders off.
Password is “runrev”; without quotes, 6 chars, all lowercase.


Even it was a poor example and responding to user was in fact possible in this 
particular case;
the main reason why I opened this thread remains.

We, as a community, should decide which features are essential for us to help 
RunRev deciding their long term roadmap.

Definitions are important.
Right questions should be asked to get the right answers.


Best,

~ Ender



On February 12, 2014 at 3:46:33, Gerry Orkin (gerry.or...@gmail.com) wrote:


And here it is with 2 files downloading concurrently:

http://quick.as/yn6aiq18

Gerry


On 12 Feb 2014, at 12:38 pm, Gerry Orkin gerry.or...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ender wrote:

 One cannot update the UI while pulling the content from the server.

 Er, yes you can. I'm doing it.

 Here's a screencast of it in action:

 http://quick.as/qyvjtr47

 g





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Re: Defining Pet Features and Essentials

[John Craig]

Have you tried 'load URL' on mobile? For non blocking downloads?

Sent from my iPhone

 On 12 Feb 2014, at 03:17, Ender Nafi Elekcioglu endern...@keehuna.com wrote:
 
 Gerry hi,
 
 Apparently I couldn’t express myself clearly, 
 please excuse my lack of linguistic proficiency.
 
 By *updating UI*, I didn’t mean giving visual feedback to the user, which I’m 
 already using;
 I meant responding to user’s interactions like tap, scroll, pinch, etc.
 and act accordingly as opening a menu, scrolling the group, navigating to 
 another card…
 
 Here is a quick example:
 https://vimeo.com/86476730
 
 It’s password protected to keep non-Livecoders off.
 Password is “runrev”; without quotes, 6 chars, all lowercase.
 
 
 Even it was a poor example and responding to user was in fact possible in 
 this particular case;
 the main reason why I opened this thread remains.
 
 We, as a community, should decide which features are essential for us to help 
 RunRev deciding their long term roadmap.
 
 Definitions are important.
 Right questions should be asked to get the right answers.
 
 
 Best,
 
 ~ Ender
 
 
 
 On February 12, 2014 at 3:46:33, Gerry Orkin (gerry.or...@gmail.com) wrote:
 
 
 And here it is with 2 files downloading concurrently:
 
 http://quick.as/yn6aiq18
 
 Gerry
 
 
 On 12 Feb 2014, at 12:38 pm, Gerry Orkin gerry.or...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Ender wrote:
 
 One cannot update the UI while pulling the content from the server.
 
 Er, yes you can. I'm doing it.
 
 Here's a screencast of it in action:
 
 http://quick.as/qyvjtr47
 
 g
 
 
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