Re: Creating more (and specific) lists...Was ???

[Derek Bump]

> I may well be that RunRev has matured enough and has a diversified enough
> following to warrant a few separate lists.

My two cents: move the list to a Message Board.

Advantages...

1.) You don't have to download ALL 200 messages when you don't check your email for a 
few days.
2.) You can skip posts like "Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"".
3.) You can still subscribe to Topics that are of interest to you (much like a 
listserve).
4.) Posts are sorted and categorized.  It also provides an interface for older 
messages and allows better searching for "old" and "common" answers to questions.
5.) It allows for better communication between individuals without being annoying to 
others (off-list topics can be discussed in an appropriate area).
 

Derek Bump
Dreamscape Software

Compress Images Easily with JPEGCompress
http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com
 

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave LeYanna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'How to use Revolution'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 7:13 PM
Subject: Creating more (and specific) lists...Was ???


> Well, well, well...
> 
> I may well be that RunRev has matured enough and has a diversified enough
> following to warrant a few separate lists.
> 
> How about Data Access, GUI, Deployment Issues, SQL, Platform Specific
> Issues, Third Party, How do I?, IDE, Product Announcements, and so on.
> 
> I have used many languages and nearly all the vendors have list servers with
> many subsets to subscribe to.
> 
> What is so hard about setting up a few more lists? This really isn't a big
> deal.
> 
> Those who have been around a little longer just need to remember to listen
> in on the newbies. This will really help the signal to noise ratio!
> 
> If RunRev doesn't want to set up separate lists we can do it ourselves by
> prepending our subject lines with [ANN}, [SQL], [3rd Party], [GUI], [HOW].
> or some such (simple) scheme.  This will make it easy to make mail filters
> to create our own "lists" without extra work for the RunRev support staff
> (who are doing a fine job, I may add.)
> 
> I hope this promotes more constructive discussion(s)
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Troy Rollins
> Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 7:49 PM
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?
> 
> 
> On Sep 3, 2004, at 5:53 PM, Björnke von Gierke wrote:
> 
> > I was a hobbyist too (am still, but that's not the point). Now I 
> > consider myself a pro. Not because I am a better programmer, or 
> > because I learned so much, but because I can help more often then that 
> > I need help.
> 
> This is true. Many hobbyists become pros, and many pros like to help out
> those with less experience. But pros also need to share experience with each
> other sometimes, in an environment which is somewhat less noise to signal
> ratio... at some point, very generalized lists such as this one offer little
> to the pros other than the rewarding opportunity to help newbies. I am
> involved in such general lists for other tools, helping out the new folks,
> but when the work has to get done, and there is an advanced question to be
> asked... well, you don't do it there. It would get lost among the 18th "how
> do I put something into a variable?" 
> question of the day.
> 
> Many professional programmers will be put off from Revolution if the only
> support list is full of DreamCard hobbyists and complete newbies doing a
> seventh grade homework assignment.
> 
> Am I also an "elitarist" for believing that my daughter, a university
> student, should be in a different classroom than my son in grade 4?
> 
> --
> Troy
> RPSystems, Ltd.
> http://www.rpsystems.net
> 
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Re: dragging 2 windows in synch

[Scott Morrow]

Thank you for that excellent suggestion!  I may have been missing the 
forest for the drawer in this case as this seems such an obvious 
solution... now that you point it out.  I do like that drawers can open 
from different edges depending what the user might find most 
convenient.  In this case, where I'm  doing something that might 
ordinarily be done with a popup menu - if the list of items weren't so 
big -  having it scroll up without taking the window's handle with it 
is the detractor from simply resizing the stack to show the list.

-Scott Morrow
Elementary Software
(Now with 20% less chalk dust !)
web http://elementarysoftware.com/
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-

Richard Gaskin wrote:
It may be simpler and more consistent with the UI expectations for 
your  users to just use a collapsable panel with a disclosure triangle 
instead.  In most cases where an OS X drawer would work a collapsable 
panel will work just as well, and the convention is universally 
accepted on all modern platforms (even OS X).
--
 Richard Gaskin

On 8/31/04 9:34 PM, "Scott Morrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
Hello,
Is there a technique to maintain the relative location of a secondary
stack while dragging the primary stack.  I'm not looking to just 
update
the window location after the move has completed but to visually  
drag
it along with the window that the user is moving.  I'm building
routines for simulating drawer behaviors outside of OSX.
Well, if it's for OS 9, you're probably out of luck unless you make 
your own
custom windows and your own drag regions. The reason is that the 
moveStack
message isn't sent until *after* you release the mouse on the Mac. 
Now if
this is for Windows, moveStack and resizeStack are sent continually 
so you
could probably get away with something like:
on moveWindow
  set the topLeft of stack "Secondary" to the topRight of this stack
end moveWindow
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Re: [ANN] Inspect without clicking in 2.5? FREE!

[Chipp Walters]

From the website:
"Chipp Walters told me everyone was REALLY pissed off about not being 
able to inspect using the "hover" method anymore in Rev 2.5. Real palace 
revolt stuff. Anyway, he aroused my passions on the subject. Told me I'd 
become a "star" if I release the Inspector."

Can't say those are my exact words, though Jerry's embellishment doesn't 
change the fact I believe Inspector Gadget really rocks! Constellation 
is really cool too. Stay tuned.

-Chipp
Jerry Daniels wrote:
Fellow babies...
If you miss the old method of inspecting objects in Revolution where you 
DIDN'T have to option-command click in selection mode to order to 
inspect, there is a FREE solution to your problem.

Click the link below to find out more and download said solution:
http://www.daniels-mara.com/inspector
Check it out. Click-free inspection just like the old (pre-2.5) days.
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Re: One list or two ? [Was: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?]

[Troy Rollins]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 9:45 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote:
Being on a list, and seeing all the traffic go by, is a very effective 
way to learn - being able to browse archives is, for me at least, much 
less effective.
I sense the era of the Dreamcard democracy on its way in.
--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net
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Re: Scrollbars and LittleArrows

[J. Landman Gay]

On 9/3/04 6:34 PM, Arthur Urban wrote:
Now when I select a scrollbar in the editor, the properties window opens and
tells me that my arrow click and thumb click values are -1. 
I don't see that here. A new scrollbar has a startvalue of 0 and an 
endvalue of 65535. Arrow click is 512. Thumb position is 0. (But you 
normally don't have to set the thumbposition in the inspector.) There is 
no value at all for barclick, nor should there be in a little arrows 
scrollbar.

The property
inspector wont even allow /me/ to enter a minus sign.
That's right. The values must be positive integers. The start value 
(which is normally 0 for most things) and end value (the number the 
scrollbar tops out at) represent the range. You can't have a negative 
range; that is, you can't have a starting point that is less than nothing.

Worse, if I change
them both to 1, and then click off the the scrollbar and then immediately
click it again, the properties window has set them to -1 again! If I change
them both to 4, the propery window changes them to -4! What the ...?
I'm not sure why you are getting the weird behavior, but the arrow click 
(in Transcript, the "lineInc") represents the amount the scroll will 
change each time the user clicks the up or down arrows. For a little 
arrow scrollbar, this is the only value that really matters because the 
thumb area of the scrollbar is not visible. You won't need to worry 
about the bar click value (the "pageInc"); don't mess with it. On larger 
scrollbars, the bar click value is the amount the scrollbar will move 
when the user clicks in the bar itself. That usually represents a 
page-worth, or a field's-worth.

You can't set the the thumb to move a negative distance. The amount of 
change must be a positive number. The scrollbar control itself manages 
the direction of the change.

I remember your previous post about thinking little scrollbars behaved 
backwards. Are you trying to set it to a negative so it will work in 
reverse? That'd be a neat work-around, but you can't do it.

This dang control was working just an hour ago, and without me doing any
editing at all, it just magically starts to screw up. Is this an issue only
with the Trial version? This control type is litterly useless for me.
No, it isn't due to the trial version. Something else may be 
interfering. I'd try deleting the scrollbar entirely and making a new 
one; you should get the default values back that way.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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One list or two ? [Was: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?]

[Alex Tweedly]

I've changed subject line - getting to be a habit :-)
At 19:49 03/09/2004 -0400, Troy Rollins wrote:
This is true. Many hobbyists become pros, and many pros like to help out 
those with less experience. But pros also need to share experience with 
each other sometimes, in an environment which is somewhat less noise to 
signal ratio... at some point, very generalized lists such as this one 
offer little to the pros other than the rewarding opportunity to help 
newbies. I am involved in such general lists for other tools, helping out 
the new folks, but when the work has to get done, and there is an advanced 
question to be asked... well, you don't do it there. It would get lost 
among the 18th "how do I put something into a variable?" question of the day.
In many cases, signal-to-noise ratio is more a function of "list culture" 
than it is of the expertise or knowledge of those involved.  I personally 
find lists with too tight a focus less useful than ones that give some leeway.

Many professional programmers will be put off from Revolution if the only 
support list is full of DreamCard hobbyists and complete newbies doing a 
seventh grade homework assignment.
I think there's a serious case for a "use-dreamcard" list, which would be a 
good place for beginner, introductory questions. But I'd allow, even 
encourage, anyone to join both lists, and separate the traffic between the 
lists based on culture and peer pressure. There'll be some questions asked 
on the wrong list - but if the majority go to the right one, you've solved 
the signal-to-noise problem, and kept the benefits that beginners get from 
observing the full list.

Being on a list, and seeing all the traffic go by, is a very effective way 
to learn - being able to browse archives is, for me at least, much less 
effective.

Your pleading hobbyist,
-- Alex.
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Re: Who is chuck yeager? (OT)

[Mark Brownell]

On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 11:02 AM, Ken Norris (dialup) wrote:
So What? :-)
Nearly impossible because it was very advanced for its time, and 
faster than
any other manned aircraft. It wasn't heavily armed and had a short 
range,
but it could outrun anything. But quality metals had become 
unavailable and
fuel was a problem. A few years earlier and who knows?
Well the Tuskeegee Airmen are claiming three of the five that got shot 
down and another website says that more than 120 of them where shot 
down during the war. I'm impressed that there are several claims out 
there.

It's waaay off topic though, and I'd rather meet some people on this 
list
than him anyway.

So there. Take that ;-)
Ken N.
I'm not sure you would want to meet me or not. I have a sense of humor 
that often surprises people at times. Once, by navigating through a 
storm I worked my way on top of Half Dome in Yosemite in a stunt plane. 
A passenger/friend when answering yes to "Would you like to go down 
there?" dropped his teeth through the roof of his head when I dropped 
the right wing and proceeded to dive down the face of Half Dome ten 
feet away from the face. Having been a rock-climber for more than ten 
years back then I wanted to see what a falling climber would see after 
cutting loose during a equipment failure. The fun part was pulling out 
over mirror lake/meadows with a prop tips that were definitely breaking 
the sound barrier and then climbing strait up the east side of 
Washington's Column... then again I might just be kidding again.

mb
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Re: Why 7Mb?

[Trevor DeVore]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 2:18 PM, Troy Rollins wrote:
What would be good to aspire to would be the Shockwave model, where if 
a required component is missing, the player retrieves it on-the-fly. 
The beta version of the latest shockwave player is under 2 megs. I 
downloaded it yesterday in less than 6 seconds. I imagine the 
Dreamcard player could evolve to working similarly.
I think the only thing missing to have this type of functionality is 
the ability to load externals dynamically.

--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Multimedia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Why 7Mb. [Was: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a"programmer"]

[Revinfo1155]

Now there's an idea! A "who could build the best rev player" contest! Anyone game!


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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Troy Rollins]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 5:53 PM, Björnke von Gierke wrote:
Elitarist!
Fair enough. I am the bad guy.
--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net
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Re: Who is chuck yeager? (OT)

[Mark Brownell]

On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 11:22 AM, Eric Engle wrote:
However Hans Guido Mutke did break the speed of sound and survived to 
tell the
tale.

Here http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schallmauer
"Hans Guido Mutke claimed to have broken the sound barrier before 
Yeager, on April 9, 1945 in a Messerschmitt Me 262. However, this claim 
is disputed by most experts and lacks a scientific foundation."

Interesting. The only way they could have done that is by diving the 
plane. The jet engines where tested at length after the war and the Me 
262 never had the power to drag ratio to reach the speed of sound. The 
plane also did not have a proper elevator control for supersonic 
flight. This was also a problem with the first Russian Migs.

Now mention the Messerschmitt Me 163 rocket fighter and you are talking 
about the ride of the century.

Mark
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[ANN] Inspect without clicking in 2.5? FREE!

[Jerry Daniels]

Fellow babies...
If you miss the old method of inspecting objects in Revolution where 
you DIDN'T have to option-command click in selection mode to order to 
inspect, there is a FREE solution to your problem.

Click the link below to find out more and download said solution:
http://www.daniels-mara.com/inspector
Check it out. Click-free inspection just like the old (pre-2.5) days.
This product is free of charge and documented on the above web site.
Enjoy,
Jerry
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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Björnke von Gierke]

On Sep 03 2004, at 21:11, Troy Rollins wrote:
...One list really does not suit all needs. Frankly, I'm not too 
inclined to hang out on a list with the dreamcarder who wants to make 
a Pokemon database as his 6th grade science project
Elitarist! Oh wait no name calling...
Actually I think exactly the mingling of pro's and beginners is what 
this list makes so great (apart of the no name calling policy).
I was a hobbyist too (am still, but that's not the point). Now I 
consider myself a pro. Not because I am a better programmer, or because 
I learned so much, but because I can help more often then that I need 
help.

sincerely yours
Bjoernke von Gierke
<>()<>()<>()<>()<>()<>()<>()<>()<>()<>()<>
Chat with other RunRev developers:
go stack URL "http://homepage.mac.com/bvg/chatrev1.2.rev";
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Re: Why 7Mb?

[Troy Rollins]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 4:30 PM, Wilhelm Sanke wrote:
I repeat here my post that addressed such issues, which I sent on 
Wednesday, Sept 1, under subject "Dreamcard Player" and which got 
somewhat lost in the turmoil of the Dreamcard discussion on the list:
Not quite sure what you were expecting a response to. I saw the 
original message. I took it as commentary.

The Dreamcard player is big, but is oriented to allowing a single 
download for all purposes. "Custom" ones, output by a full Rev license 
would be smaller, but would not allow all DreamCard stacks to run, as 
they would be custom to an individual application - thus defeating the 
intention of a one-player-fits-all purpose. The concept with the player 
is obviously "once you have it, you don't need to get it again."

What would be good to aspire to would be the Shockwave model, where if 
a required component is missing, the player retrieves it on-the-fly. 
The beta version of the latest shockwave player is under 2 megs. I 
downloaded it yesterday in less than 6 seconds. I imagine the Dreamcard 
player could evolve to working similarly.
--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net

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Re: dragging 2 windows in synch

[Richard Gaskin]

Chipp Walters wrote:
I've a very easy to implement library for doing just about what you 
want. It's called 'altBuddyStack' and available at the bottom of page:

http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/RunRev/Downloads.htm
or just put in the msg:
go URL "http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/RunRev/altbuddystack.rev"; and 
you can see it work.

It has the advantage of being VERY EASY TO IMPLEMENT with existing 
stacks/windows. The disadvantage of only moving the stacks together 
after the mouse is up (something you don't want to do).
Works in MetaCard too. :)
FWIW, it may be useful to just use a disclosure pane for things you 
might otherwise use a drawer for.  A lot of OS X apps use expanding 
panels with a disclosure triangle, and the convention is popular on most 
other modern GUIs as well.

Drawers are great for making a Mac-only app, but they're foreign to 
other OSes and the tradeoffs with using a disclosure pane are few if any 
at all.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Backgound color of a group

[Edwin Gore]

Okay...after almost a year, I have another question...

When you create a group and give it scrollbars, Rev gives it a grey background. What 
is I don' want a grey backgound? 

I have not been able to find anyway around this - none of the settings change the 
background color of the group object.

Putting a white graphic behind everything in the group doesn't work, since there is 
still a small grey border around the graphic.

Any ideas?

Edwin Gore
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Re: Why 7Mb. [Was: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"]

[Wilhelm Sanke]

What might be the idea behind the renaming of Express to Dreamcard and 
at the same time changing some of the conditions of use?

Seems to be in a similar category like the naming of "Revolution", which 
could be understood as a goal to be reached somewhere in the future and 
as sort of a promise that its developers want to reach as soon as 
possible, but at present are still prevented to reach because of a 
number of self-inflicted obstacles coming up in the course of struggling 
with principles of design and strategies of programming. Hopefully they 
- and we - will get there eventually - supported by engaged discussions 
about "bugs", use of the IDE, education etc. etc. going on on this list.

"Dreamcard" is probably supposed to conjure up a feeling that this 
product can be used in a "dream-like" way, as a solution to programming 
problems you have always dreamed about and wanted to have. I indeed hope 
there will be such a product in the future.

At present - in its very first initial stage of development (the 
development will hopefully progress very fast) - "Dreamcard" is just 
"Revolution" minus some - not altogether unimportant - features and an 
oversized seven and a half megabyte Dreamcard Player as a necessary 
add-on (7.4 MB on Windows).

I am confident that it is possible to build a much smaller "player" - 
and that anybody in possession of a Revolution or Metacard version that 
allows standalones would be able to build a small player (for the 
Dreamcard users) in a couple of minutes or at most in half an hour.

I repeat here my post that addressed such issues, which I sent on 
Wednesday, Sept 1, under subject "Dreamcard Player" and which got 
somewhat lost in the turmoil of the Dreamcard discussion on the list:

As Kevin Miller wrote on Sept 1:
The products are differentiated by the license key you enter.  If you
requested Dreamcard you will have a Dreamcard key, and if you launch the
program you will notice the splash screen says Dreamcard.

Another of the differences apparently is (I did not yet try Rev with a 
10-day Dreamcard key) that you cannot build standalones with 
Dreamcard, but have to use the platform-specific Dreamcard Player.

I downloaded the Windows Dreamcard Player, which is 7.49 as 
"revplayersetup.exe" and needs 7.41 MB hard-disk space after 
installing. This means that you either have to add these 7.4 MB to the 
stacks produced with Dreamcard (if you want to distribute your stacks) 
or have to ask potential users to download the 7.4 MB Dreamcard Player 
from the RunRev site.

One question I want to ask here is, whether it wouldn't be possible to 
considerately downsize the Dreamcard Player? A "raw" player produced 
with Revolution or Metacard would have a size of somewhat slightly 
more than the engine size, meaning about 1.6 MB in unzipped format. 
With such a "raw" player you of course would need to move all 
necessary resources (dialogs, icons etc.) into the stacks before 
distribution. Would this be possible in Dreamcard?

My MC-Player - that also runs Rev stacks - has a zipped size of  881 
KB and contains all necessary icons, dialogs, cursors, libURL (see 
, page "samples").

The "Read_Me_First" of Dreamcard Player 1.0 states:
"The Dreamcard player allows you to access programs created with 
Dreamcard.
The Player is free.  To use it, double click it, then either open the
Dreamcard program you want to run using the Open button to the right 
of the
address bar, or navigate to a program stored online by clicking on the 
User
Spaces button."

When I double-click the installed Dreamcard Player on Windows XP, 
nothing of the above happens, in fact nothing at all happens!

The only form I can use the Dreamcard Player is to drag stacks onto 
its Revolution icon, which indeed then opens Rev and Metacard stacks. 
Unfortunately, however, no mouse cursors are visible inside the stack 
area of the opened stacks and you need to move the mouse "blindly". Am 
I missing something here?

Regards,
Wilhelm Sanke




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Re: use-revolution Digest, Vol 12, Issue 17

[Cubist]

In a message dated 9/3/04 11:02:47 AM, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>
>
>Message: 11
>Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:01:26 -0400
>From: "Frank D. Engel, Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: unhilite all fields of card ... ?
>To: How to use Revolution <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>If anyone happens to know a convenient Transcript shortcut for 
>"unhilite all button on card x", "unhilite all buttons on cards a, b, 
>and c", and/or for "put empty into fields x, y, z, and t", it would 
>certainly save me a lot of time typing in some of these scripts...   
>I'm having to "unhilite button x of card a", "unhilite button y of card
>
>a", "put empty into field z of card a" for several hundred lines in 
>each of several scripts for this project I am doing.
   The answer is to put a handler like this into the script of the stack (so 
that it can be called from *any* card in the stack):

on LightsOut CardName
  lock screen # this is optional, depending on how many buttons you're gonna 
unhilite
  repeat with K1 = 1 to the number of buttons on card CardName
set the hilite of button K1 of card CardName to false
  end repeat
  unlock screen # again, optional, depending on the number of buttons
end LightsOut

   Any time you want to unhilite an entire card's worth of buttons, just put 
one line -- "LightsOut (the short name of this card)" -- into the handler 
that's doing the unhiliting. If you want to play with multiple cards, something 
like this would be useful:

on LightsOut CardNameList # comma-delimited list of card names
  lock screen # this is optional, depending on how many buttons you're gonna 
unhilite
  repeat for each item CN of CardNameList
repeat with K1 = 1 to the number of buttons on card CN
  set the hilite of button K1 of card CN to false
end repeat
  end repeat
  unlock screen # again, optional, depending on the number of buttons affected
end LightsOut

   The analogous handler(s) for clearing the contents of text fields are left 
as an exercise for the reader.

   Hope this helps...
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Re: bug reporting and openess

[Kevin Miller]

On 3/9/04 8:30 pm, "Troy Rollins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> If I were Revolution, I would state something along the lines:
>> 
>> "Note: OS's not currently supported by their manufacturer may also
>> have problems running certain features of Revolution"
> 
> True, but given that fact that those OS's are not likely to change
> much, it should also seem appropriate to indicate specifically what
> features those are which can be expected to misbehave. I mean, if XML
> is known to not work in Win95, why not just indicate that rather than
> leave it to the individual developer to play hit-and-miss... either
> that, or drop the suggestion that it supports those OS's at all.

In 2.5 we did have had a policy of either supporting something or clearly
dropping it, and as far as possible we've done that with most components.
And we will continue that trend over future versions.  We did fully intend
to sort even this XML glitch on Windows 95, it was just one of those things
that didn't quite make it.  Partly we had to wait quite a while because the
original report didn't have enough information and we weren't supplied more
information when we requested it (we had to be sure it was a "real" issue
and not a problem unique to the reporter's "Virtual PC", and get information
on what was installed on the system, for which we sent detailed
instructions), and by the time a member of the team had time to go and get
that information themselves, it was getting later in the release cycle and
harder to fit it in.  With only one report of this issue and release
looming, it got missed.  But it shall be fixed (or if impossible to fix,
officially noted as unsupported) very shortly.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools

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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Kevin Miller]

On 3/9/04 9:11 pm, "Troy Rollins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> That said, I'll request directly the consideration of providing a
> professional developer's list for those with current licenses for
> studio or above. While DC is an awesome thing for RunRev, it has the
> potential of being less awesome for pro developers who need to be
> focused. One list really does not suit all needs. Frankly, I'm not too
> inclined to hang out on a list with the dreamcarder who wants to make a
> Pokemon database as his 6th grade science project. I have nothing
> against them, but I also don't buy the Enterprise edition for hobby
> programming.  Having this list as the only discussion list for all
> things Dreamcard and Revolution is too big a melting pot which dilutes
> the overall usefulness of the list for everyone involved, at whatever
> level.

That's a well reasoned argument, I'll have a think about when and how this
might best be done.

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools

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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Troy Rollins]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 2:48 PM, Kevin Miller wrote:
The RunRev stance of
trying to keep such discussions out of this list will also keep
professional developers out of this list, since we are quite 
accustomed
to open discussion of any usage issues regarding the tools we work
with.
Note that our professional developers do have additional access to the
additional improve list resource, which the development team monitors
closely.
This is true, though it has a (fairly) focused intention of being aimed 
at future versions and betas - as it should. There are a number of 
"professional" developers here on this list who are not part of that 
one, as well.

I don't argue your points on Bugzilla use at all, only the apparent 
chastising of those who choose to bring issues here first for 
confirmation. I think they have a pretty typical reaction - something 
doesn't seem to work right, hit the list and ask around. Crashes of 
course, are pretty darn likely a bug.

That said, I'll request directly the consideration of providing a 
professional developer's list for those with current licenses for 
studio or above. While DC is an awesome thing for RunRev, it has the 
potential of being less awesome for pro developers who need to be 
focused. One list really does not suit all needs. Frankly, I'm not too 
inclined to hang out on a list with the dreamcarder who wants to make a 
Pokemon database as his 6th grade science project. I have nothing 
against them, but I also don't buy the Enterprise edition for hobby 
programming.  Having this list as the only discussion list for all 
things Dreamcard and Revolution is too big a melting pot which dilutes 
the overall usefulness of the list for everyone involved, at whatever 
level.

--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net
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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Kevin Miller]

On 3/9/04 5:49 pm, "Troy Rollins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> With all due respect, this is an EXTREMELY frustrating position you are
> taking. Discussion of bugs is not only common on developer lists, it is
> expected. While no one expects the development team to pick up on bugs
> from discussions here, often times it is the end-user introducing some
> issue, or the list members know a workaround, or simply prefer to know
> about such issues before they encounter them. The RunRev stance of
> trying to keep such discussions out of this list will also keep
> professional developers out of this list, since we are quite accustomed
> to open discussion of any usage issues regarding the tools we work
> with. 

Note that our professional developers do have additional access to the
additional improve list resource, which the development team monitors
closely.

> Limiting such discussion, and demanding that Bugzilla be the only
> point of entry on these things makes it look like you are trying to
> hide something, and it is also a very low feedback mechanism. It is
> akin to saying, "if you encounter what you think is a bug, put your
> development project on the shelf until we determine if you are right or
> wrong. That could take an indefinite amount of time, during which you
> are out of luck."

Its really the opposite: we're trying to provide the best possible service,
and when people report issues on the list and then don't report them on the
bug system, that doesn't allow us to do that.  I saw this issue and went to
look for it in the database, as I know that we're working on the menu code
right now and wanted to know if this was being looked at.  I couldn't find
the report, and the engineer working on it doesn't constantly monitor this
list so he may not even know about the problem!  If you need to talk about a
workaround sure, its useful to discuss.  But this isn't the right place to
make the report.

> If the intention of this list is to act like a marketing vehicle where
> everyone is happy, and there are no apparent bugs in the software, then
> I think we need another, more reality-based list, aimed at registered
> users of studio or above which is more open to discussion of bugs,
> workarounds and solutions to the inevitable issues that arise in
> professional software development.

There are bugs in our software and there always will be, its way too complex
to expect otherwise.  I'm not trying to stifle the debate or prevent
workarounds.  But I think some people don't realize that we generally take
responsibility (99.9% of the time) when the program actually crashes to
attempt to come up with a fix - at the very least we try to bring up an
execution error dialog if indeed you are doing something wrong, instead of
an actual crash.  And for anyone not familiar with that policy (there have
been a great number of new users on this list recently), they now know that
we consider a "crash" a "clear cut" case.  Now in other cases it can be
really confusing to know if it is a bug or your own code or design, so
discussion here first, possibly also in other places or on Bugzilla are all
fair game and absolutely help everyone to get a handle on something.  But in
a really clear cut case like this, your first port of call should be
Bugzilla.  The URL is at http://support.runrev.com/bugzilla

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools

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Re: unhilite all fields of card ... ?

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

Sweet!
Thank you, that looks great.
On Sep 3, 2004, at 2:35 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:
I do something like this in a repeat loop:
local y, tObject, tControl
put the name of this card into tObject
repeat with y=1 to the number of controls in tObject
  put the name of control y of tObject && "of" && tObject into tControl
  switch word 1 of tControl
case "field"
  put empty into tControl
  break
case "button"
  set the hilite of tControl to false
  break
  end switch
end repeat

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Re: Studio Early Update Pack £99 - Studio Update Pack £133

[Wolfgang M . Bereuter]

On 03.09.2004, at 11:59, Kevin Miller wrote:
1)  You can purchase the early update pack within a year of your last
purchase or renewal, otherwise you must purchase the update pack.
Does this mean that I (maybee others too) have to pay the higher price, 
because my license has expired some weeks ago?
WITHOUT any information from RR about that?
Or is that a new falvor of the monthly changing RR licence policy I did 
not realized?

regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Trainingsmaps© -- speedlearning Mindmaps!
INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria
...
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
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Re: unhilite all fields of card ... ?

[Mark Wieder]

Frank-

Friday, September 3, 2004, 10:01:26 AM, you wrote:

FDEJ> If anyone happens to know a convenient Transcript shortcut for 
FDEJ> "unhilite all button on card x", "unhilite all buttons on cards a, b,
FDEJ> and c", and/or for "put empty into fields x, y, z, and t", it would
FDEJ> certainly save me a lot of time typing in some of these scripts...
FDEJ> I'm having to "unhilite button x of card a", "unhilite button y of card
FDEJ> a", "put empty into field z of card a" for several hundred lines in
FDEJ> each of several scripts for this project I am doing.

I do something like this in a repeat loop:

local y, tObject, tControl

put the name of this card into tObject
repeat with y=1 to the number of controls in tObject
  put the name of control y of tObject && "of" && tObject into tControl
  switch word 1 of tControl
case "field"
  put empty into tControl
  break
case "button"
  set the hilite of tControl to false
  break
  end switch
end repeat

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: bug reporting and openess

[Troy Rollins]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 2:00 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:
If I were Revolution, I would state something along the lines:
"Note: OS's not currently supported by their manufacturer may also 
have problems running certain features of Revolution"
True, but given that fact that those OS's are not likely to change 
much, it should also seem appropriate to indicate specifically what 
features those are which can be expected to misbehave. I mean, if XML 
is known to not work in Win95, why not just indicate that rather than 
leave it to the individual developer to play hit-and-miss... either 
that, or drop the suggestion that it supports those OS's at all.

--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net
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Re: Who is chuck yeager? (OT)

[Eric Engle]

The jet you are refering to is the Me-262 (messerschmitt): it was not the only
high speed jet aircraft, however it was the most reliable and produced in the
greatest quantity.

In fact, it was also the first jet to break the speed of sound. 
The first few pilots who had the misfortune to do so however were unable to
recover control of their aircraft. 
Consequently, the german air force strictly forbade flying the 262 beyond
certain speeds - also because high speed flight induced metal fatigue.
However Hans Guido Mutke did break the speed of sound and survived to tell the
tale.

Here http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schallmauer

Mutke died very recently
(http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/0,1518,295132,00.html)

http://hans-guido-mutke.wikiverse.org/



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Tools Palette Disappearing in 2.5

[Derek Bump]

Has anyone else been experiencing the following bug?

When I launch Rev 2.5 the Tools palette is not visible.  I try unchecking and checking 
it within it's menu, but that still does not make it visible.  The only way I've been 
able to get it to show is to launch the Application Browser and double click it to 
bring it to the TopLevel.  After that I close it and reopen it and it works just fine.

This is happening on Revolution 2.5 on WinXP Home Edition.
 

Derek Bump
Dreamscape Software

Compress Images Easily with JPEGCompress
http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com
 
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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Wolfgang M . Bereuter]

On 03.09.2004, at 17:38, Dan Shafer wrote:
Yeah, I know about Inspiration. But they are a VERY small company, 
much too small to support a full-blown development tool like Rev.
You are saying that Inspiration is smaller than rev??
regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Trainingsmaps© -- speedlearning Mindmaps!
INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria
...
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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Wolfgang M . Bereuter]

On 03.09.2004, at 17:08, Kirk McElhearn wrote:
I can think of one off the top of my head: Inspiration
(www.inspiration.com), who makes outlining/mind-mapping software. I've 
been
in touch with PR people who represent other companies that make a 
living
from software for the education market - they are usually not 
high-profile
companies, and they usually serve only that market.
Exactly. I know/work with Inspiration since about 15 years and did a 
lot with it. They started some years ago focusing only to the edu 
market, and never earned so much money in their history as with this 
step. And they have costumerfriendly support, whats basic for making 
money.

regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Trainingsmaps© -- speedlearning Mindmaps!
INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria
...
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: bug reporting and openess

[Chipp Walters]

Hi Andrew,
Seeing how a compamy like Microsoft doesn't support Win95 these days (at 
all!), are you really surprised there are a few anomolies with RR and 
Win95? How much of Win95 does .NET support? My guess is 0%.

I would imagine you are one of the very few RR customers still using 
Win95. I agree, if RR advertising compatibility, then it should do it's 
best to accomodate, which I think they are probably doing. But, 
reworking a complete XML parser DLL may be asking too much.

If I were Revolution, I would state something along the lines:
"Note: OS's not currently supported by their manufacturer may also have 
problems running certain features of Revolution"

best,
Chipp
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I was told they would be fixed. Still waiting. I was told RR couldn't 
figure out the bugs due to not having win95 installed (only recently does RR 
have it in house!).
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Re: Who is chuck yeager? (OT)

[Ken Norris (dialup)]

Hi Klaus,

> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:04:19 +0200
> From: Klaus Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Who is chuck yeager? (OT)

>> Oh, and one more historical item. I think he was the only fighter
>> pilot at
>> the end of WWII to shoot down the famous German jet from a
>> piston-engine
>> propellered aircraft (a P-51).
> 
> Thank you for this one, very compassionate! :-D

No, no. Jeez. I follow a lot of aviation stuff including history. My
family's been involved with it for 60 years. I've seen gatherings of WWII
pilots from all sides, some of whom actually had encounters with each other,
swappin' tall tales and partying together like crazy for a bunch of old
farts.

The jet was a fantastic design,way ahead of its time, faster than any other
manned aircraft in the sky. Nobody could catch it.

Yeager really was an old school hotshot, albeit a bit wreckless. Most test
pilots are at least a little that way.

I have strong interests there, but I'd rather meet you than one of them.

Ken N.

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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Bill]

I am a very busy (but happy runrev user) and I do notice that there is tons
of traffic on this list but find nearly all of it important and/or
interesting including info that may lead to a  bug report. So I vote that it
be ok for people to discuss bugs on the list at least enough so we can say
"yes it's a bug" and tell them the link for the latest bugzilla.


On 9/3/04 11:49 AM, "Troy Rollins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Sep 3, 2004, at 11:23 AM, Kevin Miller wrote:
> 
>> There is a simple rule when developing in DC/Rev.  If it crashes its
>> almost
>> certainly a bug.  We provide a bug reporting facility and act quickly
>> to
>> resolve issues.  By filing it in the database we can fix it.  Posting
>> to
>> this mailing list doesn't get the information logged by our developer
>> team.
>> This list is for the discussion of how to use the product, so please
>> do not
>> report bugs here.
> 
> Kevin,
> 
> With all due respect, this is an EXTREMELY frustrating position you are
> taking. Discussion of bugs is not only common on developer lists, it is
> expected. While no one expects the development team to pick up on bugs
> from discussions here, often times it is the end-user introducing some
> issue, or the list members know a workaround, or simply prefer to know
> about such issues before they encounter them. The RunRev stance of
> trying to keep such discussions out of this list will also keep
> professional developers out of this list, since we are quite accustomed
> to open discussion of any usage issues regarding the tools we work
> with. Limiting such discussion, and demanding that Bugzilla be the only
> point of entry on these things makes it look like you are trying to
> hide something, and it is also a very low feedback mechanism. It is
> akin to saying, "if you encounter what you think is a bug, put your
> development project on the shelf until we determine if you are right or
> wrong. That could take an indefinite amount of time, during which you
> are out of luck."
> 
> If the intention of this list is to act like a marketing vehicle where
> everyone is happy, and there are no apparent bugs in the software, then
> I think we need another, more reality-based list, aimed at registered
> users of studio or above which is more open to discussion of bugs,
> workarounds and solutions to the inevitable issues that arise in
> professional software development.
> --
> Troy
> RPSystems, Ltd.
> http://www.rpsystems.net
> 
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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Troy Rollins]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 12:48 PM, Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote:

Why not just change the name across the board, DreamCard, DreamStudio 
and
DreamEnterprise, which implies an upgrade path.
My understanding is that it's because there's a desired differential 
between DreamCard (which is more for hobbyists, power users, 
educators, etc.) and Revolution (more for professional developers).
Hence my personal belief that there should be mailing lists which 
better represent those groups. Hobbyists don't want to listen to stuff 
that is "over their heads", and professionals don't want to re-explain 
what a variable is over and over.
--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net

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Re: bug reporting and openess

[Meitnik]

In a message dated 9/3/04 12:07:03 PM, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


> It is akin to saying, "if you encounter what you think is a
> > bug, put your development project on the shelf until we determine if
> > you are right or wrong. That could take an indefinite amount of time,
> > during which you are out of luck."
> -- I want to toss some comments. I have encountered this. 
I have several win32 bugs waiting since May to be fixed, they have not been 
fixed. I was told they would be fixed. Still waiting. I was told RR couldn't 
figure out the bugs due to not having win95 installed (only recently does RR 
have it in house!). Humm, RR makes a claim all over their website support for 
Win95 and 98, yet I am convinced RR really has not fully tested RR x.x on 
anything but 2000/XP. I have had to write my own xml parser and am writing my own 
move object code too. I have lost a great deal of time and money working around 
bugs that should have been found and fixed a long time ago. 
You bet openness for bugs is important! I never forgot the first time I 
called in a bug in '85 to a company and was told bugs are trade secrets and they 
won't be confirmed or denied or share what other bugs they have to help me not 
stumble with the software. I am grateful for the many bug fixes, but testing is 
a key and important cost of doing development and openness about bugs would 
save others from costly work as I am having to do now. 
In the movie Reds, Reed makes it clear, you remove disagreement, you remove 
dissent, you remove freedom and choice; in fact the very core of self. Larry 
Tessler used to wear a t-shirt at PARC: DONT MODE ME IN. It works not only at 
software but at support too! ;-)
Openness is strong medicine for sure, but a needed one.

Andrew
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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 4:55 AM +1000 9/3/2004, Keith Hutchison wrote:
Is there an upgrade path from DreamCard to Runtime Studio?
Yes - if you go to the "DreamCard" page of the RunRev store, you'll 
see items for "DreamCard to Studio Upgrade" and "DreamCard to 
Enterprise Upgrade".

Why not just change the name across the board, DreamCard, DreamStudio and
DreamEnterprise, which implies an upgrade path.
My understanding is that it's because there's a desired differential 
between DreamCard (which is more for hobbyists, power users, 
educators, etc.) and Revolution (more for professional developers).
--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Re: Who is chuck yeager? (OT)

[Ken Norris (dialup)]

Hi Mark,

> Subject: Re: Who is chuck yeager? (OT)
> To: How to use Revolution <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>> Oh, and one more historical item. I think he was the only fighter
>> pilot at
>> the end of WWII to shoot down the famous German jet from a
>> piston-engine
>> propellered aircraft (a P-51).

> 
> So What? :-)

Nearly impossible because it was very advanced for its time, and faster than
any other manned aircraft. It wasn't heavily armed and had a short range,
but it could outrun anything. But quality metals had become unavailable and
fuel was a problem. A few years earlier and who knows?

It's waaay off topic though, and I'd rather meet some people on this list
than him anyway.

So there. Take that ;-)

Ken N.



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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

But how do you report bugs in that system then?  Post to the list 10 
times?
:)
Well, this has still to be worked out ;-)
Haven't you ever subscribed to an eMail newsletter by sending a message 
with "SUBSCRIBE" in the header?

Why not "BUG REPORT" or "*BUG!!!*"?

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unhilite all fields of card ... ?

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

If anyone happens to know a convenient Transcript shortcut for 
"unhilite all button on card x", "unhilite all buttons on cards a, b, 
and c", and/or for "put empty into fields x, y, z, and t", it would 
certainly save me a lot of time typing in some of these scripts...   
I'm having to "unhilite button x of card a", "unhilite button y of card 
a", "put empty into field z of card a" for several hundred lines in 
each of several scripts for this project I am doing.

Thank you!
---
Frank D. Engel, Jr.  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Rev Online Viewer

[Richard Gaskin]

Alex Tweedly wrote:
At 12:11 02/09/2004 +0200, Klaus Major wrote:
Hi Alex,
two questions
1. is there a way to stop it opening each time you open 2.5 
(Dreamcard) ?
Seems like there should be a preference - but the revOnline pref is 
only for update checks, and I can't find anything under Edit/Prefs 

Check (Dreamcard) menu: Edit -> Preferences
There you can un-/check:
Automatically launch Revolution Online

Thanks - I knew it had to be my blindness .
You're not blind, you're human.  Humans are complex creatures with a lot
going on.
That's why there's an increasing trend toward adding such "Don't show
again" prefs directly into opening dialogs like RevOnline.
Hopefully v2.5.1 will add that as well.
--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: New Dream/Rev tutorials

[Richard Gaskin]

Robert Brenstein wrote:
Is there a way to get to the Learning Center in the web browser?
I find the mention of Learning Center only in the "What's new" page on 
RR's web but no link and no mention how to access it.

I personally usually first check the documentation and learning 
materials for any new product I am considering to buy or use. Only then 
I decide whether to bother fetching a trial version.
Good idea for RunRev.
I've been adding RevNet-like systems to all of the products I build to
help with support, provide additional training, etc., and for all info
not exclusively private to our users we use a dual-output workflow which
lets us author in one place for one-click publishing to both the Web and
the online stackware.  Portions of RevNet have been working like that
for years.
Without also publishing content to the web, the investment in such media
can have no influence on the largest and most important audience: those
who haven't yet downloaded your product.
--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Richard Gaskin]

Dan Shafer wrote:
On Sep 3, 2004, at 4:48 AM, j wrote:
A company buys one tool, not millions of chips.

A company buys a million licenses for each tool.
Nope. That's just wrong. With rev, a company with millions of customers 
only buys one copy of the program.
Well, a million copies is a bit high, and as with HyperCard the number
of people who script in any organization is almost always lower than the
number of people who use what the scripters make.
However, the larger the organization the more developers they will have,
and hence bulk licenses.
I've sold bulk licenses of WebMerge to the US Library of Congress, the
American Bar Association, and MacWorld magazine.  I'm sure that in any
of these organizations the number of web developers is less than 1% of
total staff, but there are a lot of staff.
In the education market we see this even more commonly.  The
HyperRESEARCH product I develop for ResearchWare sells departmental
licenses nearly every week.  Sure, the number of people at these
universities who need a qualitative analysis package are a small
minority, but large enough to keep us excited about the opportunities in
the educational market.
--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re : What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[François Cuneo]

Sorry but when the a standalone crash's, for me, it's me, not a bug.
I'm not so good developer to be able to know if it's me or if it's
Revolution.

So now I'll go to the database to filing it, BUT WHERE IS THE DATABASE
PLEASE:-)

PS: hem: you think really that's a bug??:-)
Amicalement
François
--

François Cuneo
Au Champ du Pré
1353 Bofflens

e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Web Cuk New Technologies, programmes éducatifs pour Mac: http://www.cuk.ch
Web CUK, humeurs et tests sur le mac: http://www.cuk.ch/articles

Tél: ++41 (024) 441.17.81
Fax: ++41 (024) 441.17.05




> De : Kevin Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Répondre à : How to use Revolution <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date : Fri, 03 Sep 2004 18:40:14 +0200
> À : How to use Revolution <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Objet : Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?
> 
> On 3/9/04 6:19 pm, "Klaus Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> This list is meant to discuss/try out several workarounds/recipes, if
>> possible,
>> BEFORE we decide to file this as a bug...
>> 
>> And sometimes it turns out to be not a bug...
>> 
>> This might take a little burden from off of your shoulders, at least
>> sometimes ;-)
> 
> That's certainly a fair point.  I'm not suggesting that those discussions be
> limited.  Its just that when the program crashes, its almost always going to
> be a bug and its something we can investigate and fix if its logged.
> 
>> And i also want to point out that sometimes the discussions about a (not) bug
>> are so "heavy" that we all might simply forget to gozilla it... We're only
>> human ;-)
>> 
>> Perhaps someone should write a little stack that checks the frequency of a
>> certain subject and will automatically bugzilla the subject... OK, a little
>> more "intelligence" in that app would be useful :-D
> 
> But how do you report bugs in that system then?  Post to the list 10 times?
> :) 
> 
> Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
> Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools
> 
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> 


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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Klaus Major]

Hi Kevin,
On 3/9/04 6:19 pm, "Klaus Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This list is meant to discuss/try out several workarounds/recipes, if
possible,
BEFORE we decide to file this as a bug...
And sometimes it turns out to be not a bug...
This might take a little burden from off of your shoulders, at least
sometimes ;-)
That's certainly a fair point.  I'm not suggesting that those 
discussions be
limited.  Its just that when the program crashes, its almost always 
going to
be a bug and its something we can investigate and fix if its logged.
Sure, fair point, too ;-)
But although i hope so, bugzilla won't starve ever :-D
And i also want to point out that sometimes the discussions about a 
(not) bug
are so "heavy" that we all might simply forget to gozilla it... We're 
only
human ;-)

Perhaps someone should write a little stack that checks the frequency 
of a
certain subject and will automatically bugzilla the subject... OK, a 
little
more "intelligence" in that app would be useful :-D
But how do you report bugs in that system then?  Post to the list 10 
times?
:)
Well, this has still to be worked out ;-)
Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools
Best
Klaus Major
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.major-k.de
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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Troy Rollins]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 12:40 PM, Kevin Miller wrote:
And sometimes it turns out to be not a bug...
This might take a little burden from off of your shoulders, at least
sometimes ;-)
That's certainly a fair point.  I'm not suggesting that those 
discussions be
limited.  Its just that when the program crashes, its almost always 
going to
be a bug and its something we can investigate and fix if its logged.
True enough. A crash is a crash. It should indeed be Bugzilla'd. But 
notification to this list (or some other aimed at register users) could 
save the next developer heading in that direction a lot of heartburn.

--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net
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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Kevin Miller]

On 3/9/04 6:19 pm, "Klaus Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This list is meant to discuss/try out several workarounds/recipes, if
> possible,
> BEFORE we decide to file this as a bug...
> 
> And sometimes it turns out to be not a bug...
> 
> This might take a little burden from off of your shoulders, at least
> sometimes ;-)

That's certainly a fair point.  I'm not suggesting that those discussions be
limited.  Its just that when the program crashes, its almost always going to
be a bug and its something we can investigate and fix if its logged.

> And i also want to point out that sometimes the discussions about a (not) bug
> are so "heavy" that we all might simply forget to gozilla it... We're only
> human ;-)
> 
> Perhaps someone should write a little stack that checks the frequency of a
> certain subject and will automatically bugzilla the subject... OK, a little
> more "intelligence" in that app would be useful :-D

But how do you report bugs in that system then?  Post to the list 10 times?
:) 

Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools

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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Klaus Major]

Hi Troy,
On Sep 3, 2004, at 11:23 AM, Kevin Miller wrote:
There is a simple rule when developing in DC/Rev.  If it crashes its 
almost
certainly a bug.  We provide a bug reporting facility and act quickly 
to
resolve issues.  By filing it in the database we can fix it.  Posting 
to
this mailing list doesn't get the information logged by our developer 
team.
This list is for the discussion of how to use the product, so please 
do not
report bugs here.
Kevin,
With all due respect, this is an EXTREMELY frustrating position you 
are taking. Discussion of bugs is not only common on developer lists, 
it is expected. While no one expects the development team to pick up 
on bugs from discussions here, often times it is the end-user 
introducing some issue, or the list members know a workaround, or 
simply prefer to know about such issues before they encounter them. 
The RunRev stance of trying to keep such discussions out of this list 
will also keep professional developers out of this list, since we are 
quite accustomed to open discussion of any usage issues regarding the 
tools we work with. Limiting such discussion, and demanding that 
Bugzilla be the only point of entry on these things makes it look like 
you are trying to hide something, and it is also a very low feedback 
mechanism. It is akin to saying, "if you encounter what you think is a 
bug, put your development project on the shelf until we determine if 
you are right or wrong. That could take an indefinite amount of time, 
during which you are out of luck."

If the intention of this list is to act like a marketing vehicle where 
everyone is happy, and there are no apparent bugs in the software, 
then I think we need another, more reality-based list, aimed at 
registered users of studio or above which is more open to discussion 
of bugs, workarounds and solutions to the inevitable issues that arise 
in professional software development.
100% ACK!
@Kevin
This list is meant to discuss/try out several workarounds/recipes, if 
possible,
BEFORE we decide to file this as a bug...

And sometimes it turns out to be not a bug...
This might take a little burden from off of your shoulders, at least 
sometimes ;-)

And i also want to point out that sometimes the discussions about a 
(not) bug are
so "heavy" that we all might simply forget to gozilla it... We're only 
human ;-)

Perhaps someone should write a little stack that checks the frequency 
of a certain
subject and will automatically bugzilla the subject... OK, a little 
more "intelligence"
in that app would be useful :-D

--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net
Regards from sunny germany
Klaus Major
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.major-k.de
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RE: Audio Only for 2.5 Vids (WinXP)

[Dave LeYanna]

Keep up the fine work Kevin!

As far as I can tell there are only a few minor issues with a FANTASTIC new
release! It certainly looks like you are keeping busy. Don't forget,
everyone needs to rest sometime.

Thanks

Dave LeYanna 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Miller
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 11:26 AM
To: How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Audio Only for 2.5 Vids (WinXP)

On 3/9/04 4:04 am, "Scott Slaugh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Incidentally, I filed this in Bugzilla as bug 2057 before 2.5 shipped.
> They said there that in the release it would contain the correct 
> codecs.  Apparently this wasn't true in your case.  Has anyone else 
> had this problem?  If so, I should probably reopen that Bugzilla case 
> so that Runtime will get the correct codec in there.

We did correct this problem but managed to use the wrong file for some
configurations on Windows in the final build.  It will be fixed shortly.

Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution
- User-Centric Development Tools

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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

Besides which, bugs in the software ARE related to its usage: they 
often prevent its usage, in fact.

I quite agree with the fact that lack of discussion of some of these 
bugs can prohibit effective use of the software.  If you want the list 
to be focused more specifically on how to use the software within the 
context of how it is supposed to work, that is fine, but the list 
becomes more of an interactive documentation site and less of an actual 
discussion list, in which case a new list would indeed be a reasonable 
solution.

Nearly all of the bugs which we bring up on this list have been making 
their way into bugzilla, at least as far as I have seen.  I tend to 
agree that some of the discussion of bugs might be dragging on *too* 
far and thus become off-topic, but a reasonable-length discussion of 
some of these issues and how others are working around them until they 
are fixed is essential for any kind of software tool like this.  I 
would expect similar discussions for any kind of large-scale software 
(or hardware) product.

Granted bugzilla makes most of the core information available to us as 
Rev users, as well as to you as  the developers of Rev, but a 
discussion of this type could easily (and unnecessarily) waste extra 
time on the part of those in your company who are trying to fix them.

If you wish for these discussions to move off-list, could you at least 
provide or suggest an alternative discussion list, apart from bugzilla, 
where interim solutions (workarounds) to these issues could be 
discussed at greater length?

(It is also possible that collaboration between those of us 
experiencing the problems might sometimes reveal something which could 
help you to isolate and solve them more quickly).

Now that I'm looking at it this way, a "bug discussion list" might 
actually be an ideal situation.  Any takers?

On Sep 3, 2004, at 11:49 AM, Troy Rollins wrote:
With all due respect, this is an EXTREMELY frustrating position you 
are taking. Discussion of bugs is not only common on developer lists, 
it is expected. While no one expects the development team to pick up 
on bugs from discussions here, often times it is the end-user 
introducing some issue, or the list members know a workaround, or 
simply prefer to know about such issues before they encounter them. 
The RunRev stance of trying to keep such discussions out of this list 
will also keep professional developers out of this list, since we are 
quite accustomed to open discussion of any usage issues regarding the 
tools we work with. Limiting such discussion, and demanding that 
Bugzilla be the only point of entry on these things makes it look like 
you are trying to hide something, and it is also a very low feedback 
mechanism. It is akin to saying, "if you encounter what you think is a 
bug, put your development project on the shelf until we determine if 
you are right or wrong. That could take an indefinite amount of time, 
during which you are out of luck."

If the intention of this list is to act like a marketing vehicle where 
everyone is happy, and there are no apparent bugs in the software, 
then I think we need another, more reality-based list, aimed at 
registered users of studio or above which is more open to discussion 
of bugs, workarounds and solutions to the inevitable issues that arise 
in professional software development.
--

---
Frank D. Engel, Jr.  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Mark Talluto]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 8:38 AM, Dan Shafer wrote:
Schools typically want software free or at very low cost and they are 
(speaking from personal experience) very tough support customers 
because of turnover, lack of time and resources for most teachers and 
students to really dive in and learn a single program in the context 
of an academic calendar, and relatively infrequent use of any single 
piece of software. They are a difficult market to penetrate as well; 
the decision-maker is very often someone not on the org chart in a 
place where you could expect them to be. I'm sure things have gotten 
better since my last foray into that market, but making money there is 
a real challenge.
I have been in that market for 8 years now and agree that it is a tough 
nut to crack.

--
Best regards,
Mark Talluto
http://www.canelasoftware.com
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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Mark Talluto]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 8:49 AM, Troy Rollins wrote:
Kevin,
With all due respect, this is an EXTREMELY frustrating position you 
are taking. Discussion of bugs is not only common on developer lists, 
it is expected. While no one expects the development team to pick up 
on bugs from discussions here, often times it is the end-user 
introducing some issue, or the list members know a workaround, or 
simply prefer to know about such issues before they encounter them. 
The RunRev stance of trying to keep such discussions out of this list 
will also keep professional developers out of this list, since we are 
quite accustomed to open discussion of any usage issues regarding the 
tools we work with. Limiting such discussion, and demanding that 
Bugzilla be the only point of entry on these things makes it look like 
you are trying to hide something, and it is also a very low feedback 
mechanism. It is akin to saying, "if you encounter what you think is a 
bug, put your development project on the shelf until we determine if 
you are right or wrong. That could take an indefinite amount of time, 
during which you are out of luck."

If the intention of this list is to act like a marketing vehicle where 
everyone is happy, and there are no apparent bugs in the software, 
then I think we need another, more reality-based list, aimed at 
registered users of studio or above which is more open to discussion 
of bugs, workarounds and solutions to the inevitable issues that arise 
in professional software development.
I completely agree with the added note:  File it in bugzilla as well as 
bring it to everyones attention.  I too want to know what is crashing 
people's stacks and their temporary workarounds.  But file it so it 
will get truly fixed.

--
Best regards,
Mark Talluto
http://www.canelasoftware.com
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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Troy Rollins]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 11:23 AM, Kevin Miller wrote:
There is a simple rule when developing in DC/Rev.  If it crashes its 
almost
certainly a bug.  We provide a bug reporting facility and act quickly 
to
resolve issues.  By filing it in the database we can fix it.  Posting 
to
this mailing list doesn't get the information logged by our developer 
team.
This list is for the discussion of how to use the product, so please 
do not
report bugs here.
Kevin,
With all due respect, this is an EXTREMELY frustrating position you are 
taking. Discussion of bugs is not only common on developer lists, it is 
expected. While no one expects the development team to pick up on bugs 
from discussions here, often times it is the end-user introducing some 
issue, or the list members know a workaround, or simply prefer to know 
about such issues before they encounter them. The RunRev stance of 
trying to keep such discussions out of this list will also keep 
professional developers out of this list, since we are quite accustomed 
to open discussion of any usage issues regarding the tools we work 
with. Limiting such discussion, and demanding that Bugzilla be the only 
point of entry on these things makes it look like you are trying to 
hide something, and it is also a very low feedback mechanism. It is 
akin to saying, "if you encounter what you think is a bug, put your 
development project on the shelf until we determine if you are right or 
wrong. That could take an indefinite amount of time, during which you 
are out of luck."

If the intention of this list is to act like a marketing vehicle where 
everyone is happy, and there are no apparent bugs in the software, then 
I think we need another, more reality-based list, aimed at registered 
users of studio or above which is more open to discussion of bugs, 
workarounds and solutions to the inevitable issues that arise in 
professional software development.
--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net

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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Dan Shafer]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 8:08 AM, Kirk McElhearn wrote:
On 9/3/04 4:54 PM, "Dan Shafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Education is the largest market Rev—or HyperCard, etc.—will ever 
serve
and hope to make large inroads.

I hope not. The company will be out of business if that's the case. As
far as I know, there is not one company today making significant money
serving the education market with software, let alone programming
software.
I can think of one off the top of my head: Inspiration
(www.inspiration.com), who makes outlining/mind-mapping software.
Yeah, I know about Inspiration. But they are a VERY small company, much 
too small to support a full-blown development tool like Rev.

(FWIW, I *love* Inspiration. I've built a few Web sites using it in 
some clever ways that the owner of the company shared with me.)

I've been
in touch with PR people who represent other companies that make a 
living
from software for the education market - they are usually not 
high-profile
companies, and they usually serve only that market.

There are some. The key word in my response is "significant." I don't 
think there are any such companies who are also big enough to maintain 
both a development and a support effort for a full-blown development 
tool.

Schools typically want software free or at very low cost and they are 
(speaking from personal experience) very tough support customers 
because of turnover, lack of time and resources for most teachers and 
students to really dive in and learn a single program in the context of 
an academic calendar, and relatively infrequent use of any single piece 
of software. They are a difficult market to penetrate as well; the 
decision-maker is very often someone not on the org chart in a place 
where you could expect them to be. I'm sure things have gotten better 
since my last foray into that market, but making money there is a real 
challenge.

Kirk
My latest book: How to Do Everything with Mac OS X Panther
  http://www.mcelhearn.com/htde.html
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
. .
 . . . . . . .  [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.mcelhearn.com  . . . . 
. .
 . .  Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France  
. .

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Re: Educational software publishers (Was Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer")

[Peter T. Evensen]

At 09:54 AM 9/3/2004, you wrote:
On Sep 3, 2004, at 4:48 AM, j wrote:
Education is the largest market Rev—or HyperCard, etc.—will ever serve 
and hope to make large inroads.
I hope not. The company will be out of business if that's the case. As far 
as I know, there is not one company today making significant money serving 
the education market with software, let alone programming software.
Define significant.  We do pretty good. http://www.siboneylearninggroup.com
We were ranked 15th in sales growth at the annual St. Louis Regional 
Technology Top 50 Awards Dinner, sponsored by the RCGA.

Peter T. Evensen
http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com
24-hour recorded info hotline: 1-800-624-7671 

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Re: Audio Only for 2.5 Vids (WinXP)

[Kevin Miller]

On 3/9/04 4:04 am, "Scott Slaugh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Incidentally, I filed this in Bugzilla as bug 2057 before 2.5 shipped.
> They said there that in the release it would contain the correct
> codecs.  Apparently this wasn't true in your case.  Has anyone else
> had this problem?  If so, I should probably reopen that Bugzilla case
> so that Runtime will get the correct codec in there.

We did correct this problem but managed to use the wrong file for some
configurations on Windows in the final build.  It will be fixed shortly.

Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools

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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Kevin Miller]

On 3/9/04 3:54 pm, "François Cuneo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have a very important problem with the 2.5 release.
> 
> I have a handler "On shutdownRequest".
> 
> If I use the Quit menu in My standalone application, it crash's!

François,

There is a simple rule when developing in DC/Rev.  If it crashes its almost
certainly a bug.  We provide a bug reporting facility and act quickly to
resolve issues.  By filing it in the database we can fix it.  Posting to
this mailing list doesn't get the information logged by our developer team.
This list is for the discussion of how to use the product, so please do not
report bugs here.

Thanks,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools

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Re : What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[François Cuneo]

Hello Klaus!

Without the empty folder, it crash's exactly as with!
You are not the matter!:-)


In fact, if I use a button with this simple script:
on mouseup
  quit
end mouseup


All is perfect.
But if I use the Quit menu, it crash's!
:-(


The shutdownrequest is like that:
on shutdownRequest -- confirm with the user:
  global fermeture
  global chemindata
  global cheminusers
  global mesquitteroupas,reponsealerte,cheminhelp
  put mesquitteroupas into cd fld "message" of card 1 of stack "alerte"
  go to card 1 of stack alerte as sheet
  if reponsealerte = 1 then
set cursor to busy
set the itemdelimiter to "/"
--sauvegarde generale dans Data
put the label of btn "users" of card 1 of stack "Cukydata" into field
"user" of card 1 of stack chemindata --sauvegarde le dernier joueur actif
avant de quitter
put word 2 of the selectedline of btn "langue" of card 1 of stack "pref"
into fld "langue" of card 1 of stack chemindata
put the text of btn "Users" of card 1 of stack "Cukydata" into field
"contenu_users" of card 1 of stack chemindata
save stack "Cukydata"
save stack "pref"
save stack chemindata
sauvejoueur
--sauvegarde des preferences du joueur
save stack cheminhelp
close stack cheminhelp
pass shutdownRequest -- allow to quit
  end if
end shutdownRequest


And it's like that with all my applications!
G.

Thank you for your help!

Amicalement
François
--

François Cuneo
Au Champ du Pré
1353 Bofflens

e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Web Cuk New Technologies, programmes éducatifs pour Mac: http://www.cuk.ch
Web CUK, humeurs et tests sur le mac: http://www.cuk.ch/articles

Tél: ++41 (024) 441.17.81
Fax: ++41 (024) 441.17.05




> De : Klaus Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Répondre à : How to use Revolution <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date : Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:04:38 +0200
> À : How to use Revolution <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Objet : Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?
> 
> Bonjour François,
> 
>> Hello everybody!
>> I have a very important problem with the 2.5 release.
>> I have a handler "On shutdownRequest".
>> If I use the Quit menu in My standalone application, it crash's!
>> And Klaus Major writes me the 7.4.2004:
>> 
>>> There is an extremely cheap and effective trick on OS X ;-)
>>> Control-Click on the Revolution application...
>>> Select "Show contents" or whatever that may be in french
>>> to get INSIDE this folder in disguise...
>>> Then simply create an empty!!! folder called French.lproj here:
>>> Revolution/Contents/Resources/French.lproj
>>> This will at least translate the "Quit", "Preferences" and the menu
>>> "Help" into french... (in the IDE and your standalones :-)
>>> You will have to restart Rev...
>>> This folder will be part of your standalone, since all resources are
>>> copied from the Revolution application...
>> It doesn't work now!
> 
> Sorry if my hints cause this trouble for you :-(
> 
> But i have not tested this with the new version 2.5, but it looks like
> this doesn't work anymore...
> 
> Does it work again when you remove these empty folders?
> 
> I will check that, too...
> 
>> Amicalement
>> François
>> ---
>> ---
>> 
>> François Cuneo
>> Au Champ du Pré
>> 1353 Bofflens
>> 
>> e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Au revoir, mon ami...
> 
> Klaus Major
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.major-k.de
> 
> 
> P.S.
> Just checked with the Rev.app itself and had no problems with it...
> Added a "German.lproj" folder to "/Contents/Resources/"...
> 
> I had "Preferences" "Help" and "Quit Revolution" in german and all menus
> worked fine...?
> 
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> 
> 


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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Kirk McElhearn]

On 9/3/04 4:54 PM, "Dan Shafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Education is the largest market Rev‹or HyperCard, etc.‹will ever serve
>> and hope to make large inroads.
>> 
> I hope not. The company will be out of business if that's the case. As
> far as I know, there is not one company today making significant money
> serving the education market with software, let alone programming
> software.

I can think of one off the top of my head: Inspiration
(www.inspiration.com), who makes outlining/mind-mapping software. I've been
in touch with PR people who represent other companies that make a living
from software for the education market - they are usually not high-profile
companies, and they usually serve only that market.
 
 
Kirk
 
My latest book: How to Do Everything with Mac OS X Panther
  http://www.mcelhearn.com/htde.html
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . .  [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.mcelhearn.com  . . . . . .
 . .  Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France  . .


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Re: CGI Fiction Search Example

[Frank D. Engel, Jr.]

Interesting... If I use TextEdit to create a plain-text file and save 
it with default settings (except to make it plain text), it uses UNIX 
line endings already.

Xcode (Apple's development IDE for X.3) lets you change the line ending 
type using a submenu of the "Format" menu; it also defaults to UNIX 
line endings, or you can choose Mac or Windows line endings.

Another possibility (I just found this on a web site; I have not tested 
it myself yet) is to use this from the command line to convert Mac to 
UNIX line endings:

tr \\r \\n < /path/to/script > /path/to/new_script
Which seems correct from the man page anyway.
The finder will let you change file permissions, but you cannot choose 
"Execute" rights using the finder; that must be done using the 
Terminal. A shortcut to entering pathnames to files if you don't want 
to do all of the typing is to start typing the command, and when you 
would otherwise type in the pathname, drag the file's icon from the 
finder onto the terminal window.  That will fill in the pathname for 
you.  Also, I don't think I would assign write permissions to the 
scripts, just read and execute.  Besides the numbers, you can do things 
like this too:

chmod ugo+rx 
Will add "read" (r) and "execute" (x) rights for the "user/owner" (u), 
"group" (g) and "others" (o) for file  (assuming they do not 
have them already), without changing any existing write permissions

chmod o-w 
Will take away the "write" (w) permissions of "others" (o) without 
changing any existing read or execute permissions or the permissions of 
the user/owner or the group associated with the file.

etc.
On Sep 2, 2004, at 11:19 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:
On 9/2/04 11:12 AM, Gregory Lypny wrote:
Hello Jacqueline,
I found the error log.  Here are the last errors for Fiction Search 
and World.
Gregory
[Thu Sep  2 10:20:31 2004] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] Premature end 
of script headers: 
/Library/WebServer/CGI-Executables/fictionsearch.mt
[Thu Sep  2 10:25:18 2004] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] Premature end 
of script headers: /Library/WebServer/CGI-Executables/world.mt
Dave made some good suggestions; wrong permissions and bad line 
endings are the two things that I always forget too. Both will cause 
this error.

What OS are you testing on? OS X? If so, you really do have to use 
Terminal to set permissions -- the Get Info box in the Finder won't do 
it. Also, even though it is OS X Macintosh, you still need to use 
Unix-style line endings. If you don't want to do that using Dave's 
suggestion via Revolution, you can also set those using BBEdit.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Dan Shafer]

I do not necessarily disagree with  you, Judy, about the 10-hour limit. 
I just don't think we have enough data points yet to know for sure, 
that's all.

Dan
On Sep 3, 2004, at 7:43 AM, Judy Perry wrote:
I agree.  I don't argue that Rev flood the market with free software 
for
educators.  I simply do not believe that 10 hours is a sufficient 
amount
of time for learning/evaluation and that even the mere *perception* 
that
"real developers" get 30 days and lowly newbies get 10 hours looks bad.

Worse than bad: it looks like either the company isn't serious or it 
has a
bias against this particular market (something which, incidentally, I
don't believe is true).

Judy
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote:
That sounds like I agree with Judy and Marian. I don't. Because the
difference here is two-fold. First, RunRev doesn't have the resources
to wait four years for college grads to enter the job market with
experience in Revolution. They have to make profits now.
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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Dan Shafer]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 4:48 AM, j wrote:
A company buys one tool, not millions of chips.
A company buys a million licenses for each tool.
Nope. That's just wrong. With rev, a company with millions of customers 
only buys one copy of the program.


~~
Dan Shafer, Revolutionary
Author of  "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
http://www.revolutionpros.com for more info
Available at Runtime Revolution Store (http://www.runrev.com/RevPress)
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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Dan Shafer]

On Sep 3, 2004, at 4:48 AM, j wrote:
Education is the largest market Rev—or HyperCard, etc.—will ever serve 
and hope to make large inroads.

I hope not. The company will be out of business if that's the case. As 
far as I know, there is not one company today making significant money 
serving the education market with software, let alone programming 
software.

Dan
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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Judy Perry]

This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post.

Judy

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Keith Hutchison wrote:

> Thanks for your response, we were getting fairly frustrated with make up
> your mind in ten hours or forget it message. Frankly it caused confusion.

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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Judy Perry]

I agree.  I don't argue that Rev flood the market with free software for
educators.  I simply do not believe that 10 hours is a sufficient amount
of time for learning/evaluation and that even the mere *perception* that
"real developers" get 30 days and lowly newbies get 10 hours looks bad.

Worse than bad: it looks like either the company isn't serious or it has a
bias against this particular market (something which, incidentally, I
don't believe is true).

Judy

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote:

> That sounds like I agree with Judy and Marian. I don't. Because the
> difference here is two-fold. First, RunRev doesn't have the resources
> to wait four years for college grads to enter the job market with
> experience in Revolution. They have to make profits now.

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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Klaus Major]

Hi Ken and all,
On 9/3/04 5:14 AM, "Wolfgang M.Bereuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

But... Why does the same testfile (they mean: stack) have 7 MB with 
the
Dreamcard player and only about 2-3 MB as a rev build standallone 
(They
know my test apps).
I'm not Chipp, but I have an answer:
I am also not Chipp, but my WIFE is Brian!
It is the "components" folder. This takes 4.8MB of space on my Mac, 
which
basically makes up the difference in size. Now as to why DC *needs* 
all that
extra stuff when a standalone doesn't is beyond me and perhaps Chipp or
someone else can answer it.
I think this is necessary!
Imagine the average DC user creates a nice stack that uses "speech" and 
ONLY
deploys the actual stack (batteries NOT included!)...

The disappoinmtent would be very big if the end-users would NOT hear
what the user intended to be "spoken" :-)
Or will just see an error if any hint at all why it does NOT work for 
him...

So providing all necessary and possible libraries/external with the 
Player IS
in fact a very good idea :-)

And remember: This will be a ONE time (per version ;-) download!
Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Regards
Brian Major
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.major-k.de
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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Ken Ray]

On 9/3/04 5:14 AM, "Wolfgang M.Bereuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> But... Why does the same testfile (they mean: stack) have 7 MB with the
> Dreamcard player and only about 2-3 MB as a rev build standallone (They
> know my test apps).

I'm not Chipp, but I have an answer:

It is the "components" folder. This takes 4.8MB of space on my Mac, which
basically makes up the difference in size. Now as to why DC *needs* all that
extra stuff when a standalone doesn't is beyond me and perhaps Chipp or
someone else can answer it.

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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2.5 Performance--Congratulations

[Bruce Lewis]

I don't know if others are finding this, but to me 2.5 seems very snappy
and responsive in almost every respect. It feels solider, more stable and
generally a much better experience.

Congratulations and thanks to the Rev team.
-- 
Bruce Lewis
Lewis & Collyer
160 John Street, Suite 401
Toronto, Ontario
Canada  M5V 2E5
(416) 598-4357
FAX (416) 598-1067
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: What about the quit menuitem in standalone with 2.5?

[Klaus Major]

Bonjour François,
Hello everybody!
I have a very important problem with the 2.5 release.
I have a handler "On shutdownRequest".
If I use the Quit menu in My standalone application, it crash's!
And Klaus Major writes me the 7.4.2004:
There is an extremely cheap and effective trick on OS X ;-)
Control-Click on the Revolution application...
Select "Show contents" or whatever that may be in french
to get INSIDE this folder in disguise...
Then simply create an empty!!! folder called French.lproj here:
Revolution/Contents/Resources/French.lproj
This will at least translate the "Quit", "Preferences" and the menu
"Help" into french... (in the IDE and your standalones :-)
You will have to restart Rev...
This folder will be part of your standalone, since all resources are
copied from the Revolution application...
It doesn't work now!
Sorry if my hints cause this trouble for you :-(
But i have not tested this with the new version 2.5, but it looks like
this doesn't work anymore...
Does it work again when you remove these empty folders?
I will check that, too...
Amicalement
François
--- 
---

François Cuneo
Au Champ du Pré
1353 Bofflens
e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Au revoir, mon ami...
Klaus Major
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.major-k.de
P.S.
Just checked with the Rev.app itself and had no problems with it...
Added a "German.lproj" folder to "/Contents/Resources/"...
I had "Preferences" "Help" and "Quit Revolution" in german and all menus
worked fine...?
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Re: Studio Early Update Pack £99 - Studio Update Pack £133

[Klaus Major]

Hi Wolfgang,
Hi list,
I could not find any info about the diffence, does anybody know it?
Well, looks like 34 british pounds to me ;-)
thanks in advance
regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Regards
Klaus Major
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.major-k.de
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Building standalones - followup

[ron barber]

Greetings
Perhaps everyone already knows these things but they tripped me up 
until Monte helped me through them. I thought I would pass them on and 
also publicly thank Monte since I publicly complained to him.

1. In OS X, you need to have the .rev extension to save a standalone.
2. In OS X, Saving a standalone with non Rev based externals (like 
Valentina) results in unexpected quitting after the standalone is 
saved.

3. In OS X, saving a standalone with the mainstack as a palette results 
in unexpected quitting after the standalone is saved.

I experienced all three on the same project and it got a little 
frustrating. Now at least I can build a standalone and know why it 
crashes. I'll leave the fixing to Monte and Tuviah.

Ron
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Studio Early Update Pack £99 - Studio Update Pack £133

[Wolfgang M . Bereuter]

Hi list,
I could not find any info about the diffence, does anybody know it?
thanks in advance
regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Trainingsmaps© -- speedlearning Mindmaps!
INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria
...
http://www.internettrainer.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
Tel: ++43/1/ 961 0418 Fax: ++43/1/ 479 2539
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Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a "programmer"

[Keith Hutchison]

Hi Chipp,

> Sorry to hear you say this. But of course you have your reasons.

>

Thanks for your response, we were getting fairly frustrated with make up
your mind in ten hours or forget it message. Frankly it caused confusion.

I had made the decision to buy Runtime Express because
1. It built standalone apps.
2. It works with sockets.
3. It had a syntax that was similar to HyperCard
4. Some of the people on the list were really helpful in sorting out
sockets.
5. Mostly because the graphic's people wanted it and it could work with my
existing apps.
I went to the store to buy the product but the store was down in preparation
for the upgrade.

Then Dreamcard came out.
1. It appears to be very different, as in more features than Express
2. It lost some functionality in relation to graphics or graphics
processing, don't ask me for the details I was not doing the gui evaluation,
on sockets, Express came up fine for me.
3. It lost the ability to create standalones. bummer :-(
4. It seemed to be more buggy, which I've come to expect from the first new
release of any product, REALbasic included.

It seems to me that as a developer, the entry point is now Runtime Studio
whereas previously you could start with Runtime Express, built the gui,
upgrade to Studio as we reach release point.

The graphic designers decided to go with REALbasic.
Especially after I pressed them for an answer. It literally was the make up
your mind in ten hours that lost it for them. Literally. That was the
immediate purchasing result, in our case.

I will wait for the current version to shake out it bugs and then buy a
version. I can see great potential is getting the strengths of each ide
working with other with sockets, by each IDE I mean Runtime, REALbasic, MS
Access, Delphi, Foxpro, PHP, Perl and even old Filemaker via Apple Script
and ole :-)

> My understanding is that both the Dreamcard and Revolution demos are
> exactly the same with the following exceptions:
>
> 1) Dreamcard has a 10-hour trial limit; Rev has a 30-day trial limit
> 2) Dreamcard has a 'Dreamcard' splash screen on startup, whereas Rev has
> a 'Revolution' splash screen on startup
> Other than that, they are identical.
So the same 'stack' will still work in all versions of RR?

> Now, if you were to purchase Rev,
> then you can build your own standalones (kinda like SuperCard), whereas
> if you purchase the less expensive Dreamcard, you'll need to bundle the
> player (kinda like HyperCard). But, you can always upgrade from
> Dreamcard to Revolution if you want to make a standalone of your
> Dreamcard stack.
Good to know. In what version does the links for the database engines start?

>
> There are probably many reasons for creating the new Dreamcard product.
> As a professional user, I am happy RR has decided to separate the two
> products as IMO, there are both pluses and minuses for a product like
> Dreamcard. Plus: Easy to use and get started with, recognizable 'card'
> metaphor with Apple folks. Minus: Association with Hypercard and poorly
> designed stacks can create a 'stigma' for professional developers (this
> happened with my previous company and Director a few years ago).
Happens with RB as well.

> In anycase, there are two products, but one IDE. While RealBasic is a
> fine programming environment, there are many here with RB experience who
> prefer RR. In fact, Andre Garzia is an experienced RB users and a big
> proponent of RR. I suggest you consider contacting him for some
> comparison questions.
OK. Thanks.

> Also, Geoff Canyon created a RB/RR wiki a year or
> so ago which may lend further insight (anyone know a link). If you have
> any other questions, please ask :-)
Geoff's link is old circa 2001 from memory. Each product has changed a great
deal since then.

Thanks Chipp

Keith Hutchison
Balance-Infosystems.Com

postgresql - mysql - dbf
Foxpro - Delphi - MS Access - REALbasic
http://balance-infosystems.com http://realopen.org

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Re: dragging 2 windows in synch

[Chipp Walters]

Hi Scott,
I've a very easy to implement library for doing just about what you 
want. It's called 'altBuddyStack' and available at the bottom of page:

http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/RunRev/Downloads.htm
or just put in the msg:
go URL "http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/RunRev/altbuddystack.rev"; and 
you can see it work.

It has the advantage of being VERY EASY TO IMPLEMENT with existing 
stacks/windows. The disadvantage of only moving the stacks together 
after the mouse is up (something you don't want to do).

best,
Chipp
Scott Morrow wrote:

Recently, "Scott Morrow"  wrote:
Is there a technique to maintain the relative location of a secondary
stack while dragging the primary stack.  I'm not looking to just update
the window location after the move has completed but to visually  drag
it along with the window that the user is moving.  I'm building
routines for simulating drawer behaviors outside of OSX.
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Re: dragging 2 windows in synch

[Scott Morrow]

Mr. Rossi,  I thank you for that demo.  What an elegant script.  I'm 
not ready to fake the title bar yet but if I come to it your script 
will surely be the ticket.

Ken, I was under the impression that dragging the title bar was a kind 
of blocking action and wasn't sure  ANY messages were sent in 
Revolution / OS 9 then.  (I could of course fire up an OS9 machine and 
discover this for myself rather than rambling on...) Certainly I would 
love to see a script.
-Scott Morrow

Elementary Software
(Now with 20% less chalk dust !)
web http://elementarysoftware.com/
email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
On Sep 1, 2004, at 10:42 AM, Scott Rossi wrote:
Recently, "Scott Morrow"  wrote:
Is there a technique to maintain the relative location of a secondary
stack while dragging the primary stack.  I'm not looking to just 
update
the window location after the move has completed but to visually  drag
it along with the window that the user is moving.  I'm building
routines for simulating drawer behaviors outside of OSX.
If you create your own drag mechanism, it's possible.
See this demo -- run the following in your message box:
 go url "http://www.tactilemedia.com/download/slider.rev";
Relies on a palette stack being the main stack but might give you some
useful info.
Regards,
Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com
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