[OT] The switch of perception

[Bob Warren]

Some of you may have had the interest to read an article I wrote which 
can be found at: http://www.bobsite.org/brazil/ .


Early in the article, there is a classical design from Gestalt 
Psychology (the psychology of perception) that can be seen either as a 
nice young woman or as an ugly old woman. One thing I did not attempt to 
discuss in the article was the part that motivation can sometimes play 
in perception. That is perhaps a pity, because it is sometimes a highly 
relevant factor. Where language is involved, care in reading (or the 
lack of it) can also play a part.


I've been racking my brains to try and discover how it was a thread I 
participated in recently ("Open Source (was Don't you just wish Rev 
would do this?)") changed from a happy problem-solving process into a 
nightmare, demonstrating a problem rather than solving one. I now know why.


In my first post about the subject, I described a hypothetical 
arrangement. Instead of using "would" throughout (a linguistic option), 
I used the present tense: e.g. According to the proposed arrangement, "I 
do this" and "You do that".  Of course, had I realized at the time that 
this might lead to any kind of confusion, I would have peppered my 
proposal with lots more "woulds".


Here is an elaboration of what I intended to say by the two items given 
early in my first post:


1) I propose that Rev should produce IDE upgrades from now onwards that 
would concentrate on the provision of new features. I propose a strictly 
regular cycle for their release (perhaps slightly different to the 
current one). These "feature releases" represent the product that we, 
the users, should expect to pay for, and to pay for at least as well as 
the product merits.


2) I propose that bugfixing should be a continuous process between 
feature releases, aimed at correcting the current release as necessary. 
There would of course be no additional charge for it.


These are the actual words I used:

1. RR should provide feature releases on a regular basis. We pay for them.
2. We do not pay for bugfixes. The manufacturer is just putting right 
what he has done wrong.


Now here's an "ugly old woman" interpretation:

1. RR do not provide feature releases on a regular basis as they should. 
We pay for them, so Rev is doing the dirty on us by not coughing them up 
according to their obligation.


2. Rev are even making us pay for bugfixes! Well, we ain't gonna do it.

See what I mean?

Of course, after an initial "ugly old woman" interpretation, a 
psychological set has been established and everything that I say 
afterwards gets totally ignored, even if it doesn't quite add up 
logically! This "set" perception is so strong that it wouldn't surprise 
me if some people thought I was making excuses by the explanation I have 
just given!


Sorry, I realize this is not the place to discuss (even relevant) 
psychology really, but I was disappointed by what happened.


Bob


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Re: Open Source (was Don't you just wish Rev would do this?)

[David Bovill]

Chipp - would it not be the best for "stability" to have the  existing
release cyle as "stable", and those wishing to live on the bleeding edge
(and get faster bug fixes and to participate in experimental features) to
opt in for the sort of release cycle that others are requesting?

This is what I usually do for most of the web based doe I use, those
projects that I want stable and basic features i download and install, those
requiring the latest features that may not be full tested I download with
subversion and update much more often.

I'd go for the same model with Rev - though the exact method is up for grabs
the principle is clear and standard. It's really just making the beta
programme more visible (ie its a plugin and an actively discussed option). I
for one have only ever heard of beta testing once or twice as an aside on
this list. Stability is usually achieved by getting as much and as early
user testing as possible. I'd open things up a bit, with a clear disclaimer,
and a plugin along the lines of that being discussed.

On 10/06/07, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Bob,

Updating Rev each time a bug fix is made, could be a dicey proposition, as
typcially after a bug is fixed, there still should be unit testing, then
more inside testing, then beta testing, then rc testing, etc. to make sure
fixing the bug didn't break other stuff. I think Rev has taken the
position
to do all this in the same cycle, which for a company with limited
resources, is a good way (IMO) to go.

The existing architecture of course could do just as you suggest. But my
biggest fear with a system like this would be we would never end up with a
fairly stable release. The complexity of Rev could create unforseen
problems
when fixing one bug only to see a ripple effect of it creating many more.


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Ground Control to Revolution

[Peter Alcibiades]

Scott writes:-

"Two thumbs up for commercial solutions and not some half baked, half whacked,
half completed and half bug tested open source "solution" that the author
may or may not get back to finishing one of these days... maybe...if I feel
like it, which phase is the moon in, who won the world series, heck I'm no
longer interested and the project withers and dies."

This attitude worries me more than anything that has come out of the Rev 
community since I started with Rev.   People really do not seem to understand 
what the nature of the open source competition is.  Its baffling, this degree 
of ignorance, and its deeply worrying.  The competition that will destroy 
your product is the competition whose existence you spend your whole time 
denying and refusing to look at.

Lets say that things carry on with Rev as they are now, for Linux users, into 
December of this year, or six more months.  

The documentation will still be a work in progress, abandoned half-baked in 
June 2006.  Linux users will still be stuck on 2.6.1 with no idea when or 
whether they will get an update to the main stream.  Not so much half-baked, 
as rather stale.  

Meanwhile, Python (and all the other open source alternatives) will be moving 
on.  Python is and will remain professionally documented, with half a dozen 
excellent tutorial and reference texts, electronic and paper.  Hetland's 
book, for instance, is what Dan Shafer's book should have become had it gone 
to a second edition.  Its one of many.

Python is now, and will be, up to date on all platforms, it has super easy 
database connectivity, not using ODBC.  It has a choice of a dozen super 
editors.  It has lots and lots of libraries and code snippets available for 
use.  It has several excellent gui kits, well maintained and up to date.  
Stable and development versions are available, kept clearly separate.  
There's no bug mountain.  No, it will not have split into multiple 
incompatible undeveloped variants.  It hasn't in years, why should it now?

I really like Rev, I like the Hypercard roots, the people, the community, the 
ease of learning, the flexibility and speed of getting stuff done in it.  I'm 
not advocating moving to Python and don't want to. Python is a lot harder to 
learn, maybe also to use.  But my goodness people, wake up and look at what 
is going on in the world outside.  It is not the way you think it is.  You 
are becoming your own worst enemies by burying your heads in the sand.

By the way, while you are en route to python.org to check it out, think for a 
few moments about how you get there.  You might use Safari, which started 
life as the OSS Konqueror.  Or the OSS Firefox.  You might use DNS, 75% of 
which probably runs on OSS BIND.  The pages might be hosted on the OSS 
Apache.  A majority are.  You might post comments, which will be relayed by 
Sendmail.  Many of the hosts you use will be running one or other Linux 
server distro.  Also OSS.

Still think OSS is all half baked, phase of the moon stuff?  Sitting at my 
Debian desktop, shaking my head in disbelief.  Where do these ideas come from?

Peter
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[OT] The switch of perception - some immediate patches

[Bob Warren]

1. I should have said that care in both reading AND WRITING is necessary.

2. For an "ugly old woman" interpretation of what I said, the whole 
register of what I was saying needs to be changed: i.e. what is really a 
proposal for the future needs to be misinterpreted as a description of 
the current state of affairs. It may or may not be, but that is not what 
I intended to say in my proposal.


Bob






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Ground Control to Revolution

[Richmond Mathewson]

Before this Open Source versus Commercial 'spat' goes
any further let me make a few points:

1. Scott Kane has demonstrated his unshakeable
conviction many times that Open Source is a waste of
time.

Scott is perfectly entitled to hold that point of
view; although, personally, I think he is wrong.

2. Metacard is "sort of" Open Source, insofar as the
IDE goes - it still depends on the RR engine. 

3. The Documentation: Yup, we all know it isn't very
good.

4. Runtime Revolution are a commercial company, and
(at least as far as I know) the people who work for RR
depend on income generated by the RAD to put food in
their fridges.

5. I would have thought one way to go was as follows:

A consortium of programmers should be assembled who
feel that they can donate (!!!) some of their time,
energy and effort towards working to improve aspects
of RR they feel grumpy about. They then do the work
required and donate the end result to RR.

6. Another way () would be to assemble the
consortium who build a clone of RR starting with an
Open Source engine.

7. Scott Kane and his 'camp' and the Open Source
'camp' are both entrenched - so it is probably better
not to clog up the use-list in circular arguments
which eventually digenerate into unpleasantness.

Now, somebody who really felt strongly about the O.
Source route could start up some sort of use-list,
Yahoo-list, something where this debate could
continue.

8. Of course I now have to shove in my opinion:-

Runtime Revolution is a bloody good RAD. So the RR
developers should stop the treadmill of endless
upgrades and concentrate on sorting out all the loose
ends that are making a lot of people cheesed-off. 

2.8.2, or 2.9 or what-ever should be dumped right now.

2.8.1 should be refined:

no new eye-candy, no new features: get the
Documentation up to scratch, the Linux version lined
up with the Win and the Mac versions. Fix all the
bugs!!!

And let us have a version 3 (Hey, that's funny, Apple
choked on HC version 3) that is what everybody wants.

sincerely, Richmond Mathewson



A Thorn in the flesh is better than a failed Systems Development Life Cycle.



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Re: Ground Control to Revolution

[David Bovill]

On 10/06/07, Peter Alcibiades <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



This attitude worries me more than anything that has come out of the Rev
community since I started with Rev.   People really do not seem to
understand
what the nature of the open source competition is.  Its baffling, this
degree
of ignorance, and its deeply worrying.



Peter - I agree with you entirely, and it is well argued. I guess worrying
doesn't help though :). It is justified and reasonable the objections people
have. Many people have a very poor experience with open source software -
particularly on the end user side, but also with company and professional
use. I disagree with them but only time will tell. Many people when they
first saw the internet had the same impression - ie what a mess. Many people
when they first saw WikiPedia had the same impression. Many people still do
with both.

The competition that will destroy your product is the competition whose

existence you spend your whole time
denying and refusing to look at.



I have worried the same. You watch open source projects grow and you see the
gap between what Rev can do and what you can do with the open source code
narrow steadily over time. Twice now I have stopped using Revolution because
of these worries. More worrying is my experience of working with young
freelance software developers. Over the last 5 years I have worked over
extended periods with maybe 30 or 40 developers - enough time to show them
in depth what Metacard / Revolution can do. I was usually the project lead
so I could push the project in that direction (casually I have introduced
many more people through lectures and conferences). The initial reaction was
"great!" - but in the end not a single one of them took up the language.

They learned python, ruby or some specific open source framework. I talked
to them and I know why, and I know what sort of things could have swung it
for them (no need to go as far as open sourcing the engine for instance!).
30 or 40 sales is nothing for RunRev - the real issue is these were very
good and very bright developers, and that because of their energy would have
produce open libraries for the rest of us (many of them have gone on to do
this for their chosen languages).

But please lets keep this positive! As people have pointed out there is
nothing to stop it happening. If it is done well and people find it useful
it will grow, waiting for RunRev or consensus, or consent is the death of a
project like this. When it comes down to it - its all talk and politics
unless we see the code.

I for one feel like stopping this thread about open source. I am sure many
others do to. Personally, I feel it would be better to speak through action.
I feel bad about not having published stuff to this community in the past,
and was righty critised by Chipp and others, so  I'll take the committed
step of actually publishing it. The web site has been up since a few months,
and the services are all in place to integrate everything into the whichever
IDE you use - all the code will be mirrored to a common SourceForge
repository. If anyone wants to help out, or submit a library, or just take a
peek - contact me off list.
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Re: Ground Control to Revolution

[Scott Kane]

From: "Peter Alcibiades" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

This attitude worries me more than anything that has come out of the Rev 
community since I started with Rev.   People really do not seem to 
understand
what the nature of the open source competition is.  Its baffling, this 
degree of ignorance, and its deeply worrying.  The competition that will 
destroy
your product is the competition whose existence you spend your whole time 
denying and refusing to look at.


But I don't deny it and certainly do look at it.  Being pro commercial 
software is hardly worrying, problematic or anything else.  It certainly has 
no negative conentation in regards to Rev, RR or this list.  If you want to 
write software with no renumeration them please be my guest.  All I ask is 
that you don't try to make it compulsory or insist that others make their 
software available with zero renumeration just because you believe that 
should be the way of the world.


Lets say that things carry on with Rev as they are now, for Linux users, 
into December of this year, or six more months.


I have no problems with Rev updating the Linux engine.  Indeed I fully 
support Rev updating the Linux engine.  Should it be free?  I don't think so 
and I support RR if they choose not to make it so.  If RR decide to make it 
free - well that's their affair.  All I maintain is that software is a 
consumer product.  If a company is to eat beyond visiting the local charity 
for a bowl of soup and a slice of bread then they are darn well going to 
have to sell it for money and not goodwill because some people feel software 
should be free.


Meanwhile, Python (and all the other open source alternatives) will be 
moving on.  Python is and will remain professionally documented, with half 
a dozen
excellent tutorial and reference texts, electronic and paper.  Hetland's 
book, for instance, is what Dan Shafer's book should have become had it 
gone

to a second edition.  Its one of many.


I'm yet to find one major commercial product written in Python.  I suppose 
they exist, but as I say, I've not run into one yet. I suspect having said 
that I shall be given a list.AFA the actual coding in Python I've not 
tried it and presently have no need to do so.


I really like Rev, I like the Hypercard roots, the people, the community, 
the ease of learning, the flexibility and speed of getting stuff done in 
it.  I'm
not advocating moving to Python and don't want to. Python is a lot harder 
to learn, maybe also to use.  But my goodness people, wake up and look at 
what
is going on in the world outside.  It is not the way you think it is.  You 
are becoming your own worst enemies by burying your heads in the sand.


Burying your head in the sand?  I could put a really awful laugh in here - 
but I won't because I believe you are genuine.  Look.  Free can not make the 
world go round.  It didn't work for Marx, it didn't work for Lenon.  There 
are other examples.  However there are not any strong examples of where it 
has worked.  People have to eat - even Open Source officiandos must eat 
something and somebody has got to pay for that stuff they are eating. 
Whether it is customers, support contracts (which are not even likely to be 
paid by most consumers and small business') or the government in handouts to 
the unemployed.


Still think OSS is all half baked, phase of the moon stuff?  Sitting at my 
Debian desktop, shaking my head in disbelief.  Where do these ideas come 
from?


Yes.  Absolutely.  Because Joe and Jill Six-pack can't use your lovely (and 
I'm sure it is exactly that) Debian desktop.  All those wonderful internet 
tools that are "free" are not really free.  People take that code, compile 
it and sell it to us as "Web Hosting".  Sure - I can setup those tools on my 
own box and connect to the big wide world but that opens a whole new kettle 
of fish (security, time to keep it secure etc - which BTW are all cost 
factors).  Now - back to Debian (or any *Nix flavour) there simply are not 
enough applications to draw most people in easily.  Will there be in the 
future?  No I don't think so.  Because there's no money in it.  Linux users 
don't want to pay for software (or support contracts).  They want it free. 
Zero interest for anybody interested in making a living with software.  In 
addition *nix has no marketing clout.  Microsoft and Apple can afford 
massive add campaigns in multiple media.  *nix can not.  IBM tried to take 
on Microsoft with OS2 (a beautiful multi-tasking desktop system that in many 
ways is still superior to Windows) and failed because of marketing and 
acceptance.  The *nix fraternity may be growing - but are they gaining 
traction?  No.  Windows and Mac still dominate after almost 10 years of 
having people tell me I didn't know what I was talking about.  When Borland 
held Borcon in Sydney I told David Intersimone - over dinner - that Kylix 
would die because *nix programmers would not support it.  I suggested a 
lower pric

Re: Ground Control to Revolution

[Scott Kane]

From: "David Bovill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I for one feel like stopping this thread about open source. I am sure many 
others do to. Personally, I feel it would be better to speak through 
action.
I feel bad about not having published stuff to this community in the past, 
and was righty critised by Chipp and others, so  I'll take the committed
step of actually publishing it. The web site has been up since a few 
months, and the services are all in place to integrate everything into the 
whichever
IDE you use - all the code will be mirrored to a common SourceForge 
repository. If anyone wants to help out, or submit a library, or just take 
a

peek - contact me off list.


I'd like to make it perfectly clear that I do not oppose in any way people 
making code available for free (or whole applications or even programming 
languages) if the owner wishes to do that.  I do oppose the doctrine that 
all code should be open and free.


Scott Kane 


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Re: Ground Control to Revolution

[Scott Kane]

From: "Richmond Mathewson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

1. Scott Kane has demonstrated his unshakeable conviction many times that 
Open Source is a waste of time.


Actually - I have no problem with open source as such.  I only believe that 
it is a choise for the developer and no developer (big or small) should be 
told they have to do it "because" which sadly is a contention of many open 
source zealots.


Scott Kane 


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Re: [OT] The switch of perception

[Luis]

On 10 Jun 2007, at 9:40, Bob Warren wrote:


Sorry, I realize this is not the place to discuss (even relevant)  
psychology really, but I was disappointed by what happened.


Bob


I wouldn't be. You have evolved/moved forward. That's a gain in my  
books.


Cheers,

Luis.


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Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20 years ago?

[Scott Kane]

From: "Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

You're welcome to do it at revJournal.com if you like.  I can set up your 
own FTP account and you can do whatever you like in that section.


Replied off list

Scott Kane 


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W(h)ither Rev??? - (was sundry recent rants, with ever-increasing parentheses and unending tree branches)

[Mike Harland]

Having read the latest Mathewson v. Kane mini-rant, I thought it was  
about time somebody long-in-the-tooth, white-haired and Gandalf-like  
synthesised a few things. As a persistent, silent reader for many  
years on this list, I assume I can be allowed one message of  
(positively) negative comment before I am banned or threatened with  
legal action!


Going back to all the HyperCard nostalgia, as I remember it, HC was  
intended to become another 'atom' of QuickTime to supply the  
interactive multi-platform programming element - but Apple were weak  
at the time and somebody powerful and threatening from outside killed  
that great development idea off. So we developers all reluctantly had  
to abandon HC, fork out big money and migrate to Director/Flash/etc.  
to make our software multi-platform, get it onto the web and into the  
global market. Instead of an 'Open Source'-like, killer-platform that  
would have been QTHC, we ended up with all the present HC-->Rev  
clones, practically divorced from the main multi-platform UI of the  
web browser, and with QT as an under-developed dying duck, losing out  
to Real and MS. They all remain as small or shrinking applications  
with an ambiguous identity in a now much wider web-based (soon to be  
mobile-based) world.


Rev tries hard to be a commercial company with a proprietary app, but  
it still suffers from the same ill-defined usage identity that HC  
did. It has unfortunately alienated many of the 'academic' users who  
made HC what it was, 'Open Source' in all but name, believing that  
these 'freeby people' were the cause of its demise (even if people s  
had by then been forced to start paying a fair amount for it!!) while  
the truth is that HC failed because Apple were unable to make it  
multiplatform and web-embeddable.


Rev continues to contemplate its own navel with all its talk of  
'pros' on this list, while consistently looking down its nose at the  
so-called hobbyist, newby or daft-headed academic (consider this:  
would that 'million dollar app' have been made if it were not through  
the cooperation of an academic with a bright idea and a brilliant Rev  
programmer??). The list is mainly filled with posts from self-styled  
'experts' who are actual investors in the company and make their  
living from its success or failure and therefore are biassed by  
definition. Their comments prove nothing to me and merely try to  
overshadow others with their barrage of positive messages.


Having been in at the beginning of the hypertext 'revolution' (almost  
2 decades ago, before CDs and the web even existed) and already  
building multimedia educational apps in HC and ToolBook, I have ever  
since been waiting for the multi-platform successor to bring me back  
to the user-friendly, universal app we all ('pro' or 'hobbyist')  
deserve. But I am still waiting for Rev to prove itself as a stable  
and reliable vehicle for delivering software in a global market - I  
stopped updating a year ago and certainly won't be continually  
updating every year until it does exactly what Richmond Mathewson  
says and sorts out a stable, 'virtually' bug-free version. But, as  
Scott Kane says, if things continue as they are I expect global  
events and other orgs will have overtaken Rev by then ...


Wake up Rev management/programming team!  Open up to a cooperative,  
community-based  strategy which welcomes criticism and innovation and  
is openly friendly to its user base - evolve, mature and learn to be  
flame proof! Allow people to produce Rev advice sites and repository  
sites or to form non-commercial user groups, instead of saying "No,  
we'll set this up, since we know what we are doing and can do it  
better", and then effectively strangle these initiatives by always  
failing to come up with the goods because you obviously don't have  
the resources. Control-freakery will merely leave you as a small  
struggling company in a small commercial backwater, instead of being  
the globally recognised and commercially successful HC/MC successor  
you ought to be by now.


I suggest non-flame-resistant 'experts' and others who may feel  
aggrieved at what I have said should contemplate the positive message  
intended in this comment, before blinkeredly concentrating on their  
own personal ego defences - now and again we all have to suffer some  
unintended unfair criticism to see the error of our ways, and I am  
quite willing to be the first to accept that what I have said here  
may contain some  ...


End of one-off, non-continuing comment!

Mike




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shift from one stack to another visible despite lock Screen

[André.Bisseret]

Hi,
I have a main stack from which I can create a new stack (not a  
substack).
I created a modal styled stack where the user can enter a name and a  
forename in two fields.

so that the name of the new stack could be  set to « name forename ».
The main part of the handlers is in the script of a button on the  
modal stack..


Well, when this new stack has been created it should be on top of the  
screen.
In several places in the handlers (specially at the end), I put « go  
to stack « name forename » AND in several places also « lock screen »  
bu anyway, the main stack is always appearing (for a short while  
indeed, but visibly) before, finally, the new stack be visible on top..


For about two hours now I made a lot of trials and I searched the  
doc  without any success.


What am I missing or doing wrong ?

Thanks a lot in advance for any advice or idea

Best regards from Grenoble
André
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Re: W(h)ither Rev??? - (was sundry recent rants, with ever-increasing parentheses and unending tree branches)

[Ian Wood]

On 10 Jun 2007, at 12:35, Mike Harland wrote:

Allow people to produce Rev advice sites and repository sites or to  
form non-commercial user groups


I must be missing something somewhere, because there's a pretty  
substantial number of Rev repositories on the web... ;-)


Ian
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Re: shift from one stack to another visible despite lock Screen

[Björnke von Gierke]

You say that the mainstack appears, but not in what circumstances. Is 
it on startup of an application, or on openstack? Maybe it's just when 
you press a button on a third, unmentioned stack?
Also, do you create the "name forename" stack, or do you just rename it 
or setting of the label?


Said that, here are some general hints:
For stacks not to show up, it's always best to have them hidden (set 
the visible of stack x to false), then saved. that way the stack never 
shows up on screen.
If you need to show the stack, but do not want to show it while a 
handler runs in another stack, lock screen will not be very useful. 
Lock screen most often only affects the current stack.
Also of note is that style and mode changes sometimes make stacks 
flicker.


have fun
Björnke

On 10 Jun 2007, at 14:20, André.Bisseret wrote:


Hi,
I have a main stack from which I can create a new stack (not a 
substack).
I created a modal styled stack where the user can enter a name and a 
forename in two fields.

so that the name of the new stack could be  set to « name forename ».
The main part of the handlers is in the script of a button on the 
modal stack..


Well, when this new stack has been created it should be on top of the 
screen.
In several places in the handlers (specially at the end), I put « go 
to stack « name forename » AND in several places also « lock screen » 
bu anyway, the main stack is always appearing (for a short while 
indeed, but visibly) before, finally, the new stack be visible on 
top..


For about two hours now I made a lot of trials and I searched the doc  
without any success.


What am I missing or doing wrong ?

Thanks a lot in advance for any advice or idea

Best regards from Grenoble
André



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2.8.1 crashes

[Friedrich F. Grohmann]

I'm on a Power PC G4 with Mac OS 10.4.9. Everything worked fine after  
I downloaded 2.8.1 (build 470). As recommended, I did a full install.  
No problem for about ten days.


Then I happened to download "BigGanesh". I tried to take a look at  
the stack and Rev crashed (no cause-effect relationship intended,  
just a reconstruction of what happened). Any further attempt to open  
Rev failed. I put it into the trash and reinstalled the whole thing.  
Restarted the computer. Still only crashes.


Strangely enough, after a few hours rest for the computer, Revolution  
happily reappeared. However, a couple of days later it began to crash  
again, and since then I have been unable to open 2.8.1. The splash  
screen appears, even the tools palette. But whenever either "Loading  
Tools" or "Loading Menu Bar" is reached, a frightening pause  
interrupts the process, everything Rev related disappears and after a  
certain interval I am informed that the application quit unexpectedly.


Earlier Rev versions on the same machine are not affected. Any  
suggestion how to regain access to 2.8.1 are most welcome. Thanks in  
advance.


Fritz



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W(h)ither Rev??? - (was sundry recent rants, with ever-increasing parentheses and unending tree branches)

[Richmond Mathewson]

Mike Harland wrote:

"Rev continues to contemplate its own navel with all
its talk of  
'pros' on this list, while consistently looking down
its nose at the  
so-called hobbyist, newby or daft-headed academic"

extremely well-put. And, bye-the-bye, your posting
title expresses the situation to a tee.

To this I can only add my own case:

a chap who has a poxy little private language school
who programs content delivery for a total audience of
24.

Um; Mike; "the latest Mathewson v. Kane mini-rant" is
a wee bit off-track: I don't have a problem with Scott
Kane, nor his opinion - I happen to disagree with it;
however I am not a bigot. 

It has been constantly pointed out on this list that
Runtime Revolution suffer from a bad case of
paternalism; however, I think that there are enough
'adolescent' boys and girls amongst the posters to
this list to balance that :) Of course heavy-handed
fathers rarely wake up until their rebellious children
run away - and that could well happen.

sincerely, Richmond Mathewson



A Thorn in the flesh is better than a failed Systems Development Life Cycle.



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paypal for rev by tm?

[Robert Mann]

Tom, 

Thank for a great tutorial on how to get paypal to work with rev. I am
attempting to get it working with my new app, but looking over the files you
have posted the 

http://www.discamus.com/nunc/how/myLibUrl.rev

returns a file not found, and you say you need this to POST, what is in this
file?

 

Thanks

Rob

 

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Database - quickest way to do this?

[David Bovill]

That should get Ruslan to reply :)

Keywords are in a simple database link table and i want to do a search for
handlers based on 10 or so keywords selected by the user or automatically
selected by the software. Now i want to return a list of hits in descending
ranking depending on how many keywords are linked to the record - so if all
the keywords are there (unlikely you'd get the highest ranking). Ideally it
would be asynchronous with a first raft of result coming quick and the
broader result added later... but thats a detail. It has to be fast as it
will work as you are typing if possible.

So I guess I do an "or" SQL search for all these keywords, and then loop
through them checking hits. Or do I do "AND" searches, and iterate replacing
the "AND" with "OR" to widen the search?

NB - it would be nice to do a speed test on this trying the following
options:

  1. In memory - arrays - can't figure - seems complex?
  2. Stack with cards and use "find" - old school but could work :)
  3. sqlLite
  4. valentina (the fastest of course :)

NB - Ruslan what do you use to monitor emails - have you got a Valentina
database searching for key words - or do you just use GMail :)
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Re: shift from one stack to another visible despite lock Screen

[André.Bisseret]

Le 10 juin 07 à 14:54, Björnke von Gierke a écrit :

You say that the mainstack appears, but not in what circumstances.  
Is it on startup of an application, or on openstack? Maybe it's  
just when you press a button on a third, unmentioned stack?
Also, do you create the "name forename" stack, or do you just  
rename it or setting of the label?


Said that, here are some general hints:
For stacks not to show up, it's always best to have them hidden  
(set the visible of stack x to false), then saved. that way the  
stack never shows up on screen.
If you need to show the stack, but do not want to show it while a  
handler runs in another stack, lock screen will not be very useful.  
Lock screen most often only affects the current stack.
Also of note is that style and mode changes sometimes make stacks  
flicker.


have fun
Björnke



Thank you very much, Bjömke, for your answer ; I learned from it that  
lock screen only affects the current stack :-)


Anyway, I found my error ; I had kept a handler that overtook another  
one !!! I have just suppress it and all is OK now.

Sorry for disturbance, and thanks again

all the best
André



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Mac Icon problem

[Thomas McCarthy]

building a standalone with Rev 2.8.1 on my Mac 10.3.9
My apps are not displaying the icon I've assigned to themit worked before.

Anyone else have this problem?

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Re: Database - quickest way to do this?

[Ruslan Zasukhin]

On 10/6/07 4:13 PM, "David Bovill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi David,

> NB - Ruslan what do you use to monitor emails - have you got a Valentina
> database searching for key words - or do you just use GMail :)

I use MS Entourage for MAC, and have setup for each list a rule,
So if letter contains e.g. word "Valentina" it play sounds and mark letter
by blue color.

-- 
Best regards,

Ruslan Zasukhin
VP Engineering and New Technology
Paradigma Software, Inc

Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

[I feel the need: the need for speed]


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Re: Database - quickest way to do this?

[Ruslan Zasukhin]

On 10/6/07 4:13 PM, "David Bovill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi David,

> That should get Ruslan to reply :)
> 
> Keywords are in a simple database link table and i want to do a search for
> handlers based on 10 or so keywords selected by the user or automatically
> selected by the software. Now i want to return a list of hits in descending
> ranking depending on how many keywords are linked to the record - so if all
> the keywords are there (unlikely you'd get the highest ranking). Ideally it
> would be asynchronous with a first raft of result coming quick and the
> broader result added later... but thats a detail. It has to be fast as it
> will work as you are typing if possible.
> 
> So I guess I do an "or" SQL search for all these keywords, and then loop
> through them checking hits. Or do I do "AND" searches, and iterate replacing
> the "AND" with "OR" to widen the search?

1) Actually it is not clear:
your result should contain OR or AND for words?

  word1 AND word2 ...
or
  word1 OR word2 ...
 
> NB - it would be nice to do a speed test on this trying the following
> options:
> 
>1. In memory - arrays - can't figure - seems complex?
>2. Stack with cards and use "find" - old school but could work :)
>3. sqlLite
>4. valentina (the fastest of course :)

Not a fact comparing to memory arrays, :-)
but you did not mention size of your table, i.e. How many records.


2) Do you think about LOCAL db, or you need access remote server ?
it seems if you talk about lists or SqlLite, it is local
right ?


3) for now I can give this point:
Valentina API (and V4REV) also, has LOW LEVEL API calls.

Using them for this task you can:

---
  * do search on word1. Get result S1 as BitSet or ArraySet
of N1 found records.

  * show to user this SET, and actually show him only first
  10-20 records that fit window's list box

DO LOOP
{

  * search on word, get second SET S2.

  * you can keep all Sn results on your hands if you need,
or just accumulate result into Sr

S(r) = S(i) intersect S(i+1)-- AND
S(r) = S(i) union S(i+1)-- OR

  * Update S(r) in the list of Widow asynchronous.
---

Above this is the only algorithm to split the whole task into few steps on
low level and get asynchronous execution as you did want.
This works if you not use SQL way, and if you work locally.


4) IF do job carefully, then you can even split this into few threads, and
then many chances that on N CPU computer they will work together.


5) for remote db it is possible write stored procedure on server side.

Let me know if you need more points.



-- 
Best regards,

Ruslan Zasukhin
VP Engineering and New Technology
Paradigma Software, Inc

Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

[I feel the need: the need for speed]


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Re: Database - quickest way to do this?

[David Bovill]

Valentina Valentina Valentina Valentina Valentina

On 10/06/07, Ruslan Zasukhin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I use MS Entourage for MAC, and have setup for each list a rule,
So if letter contains e.g. word "Valentina" it play sounds



Ah - so what sounds do you hear - maybe it would sound nicer if it played
something in different pitches depending on the font size? :)
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Re: Database - quickest way to do this?

[David Bovill]

On 10/06/07, Ruslan Zasukhin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



> So I guess I do an "or" SQL search for all these keywords, and then loop
> through them checking hits. Or do I do "AND" searches, and iterate
replacing
> the "AND" with "OR" to widen the search?

1) Actually it is not clear:
your result should contain OR or AND for words?

  word1 AND word2 ...
or
  word1 OR word2 ...



Sorry - to be clear. Lets call it a find similar search.

I have a handler that is tagged "xml,html,array,add,combine,base64,david...
etc" and I want to find siilar handlers ranked by priority, so handlers
which contain all the keywords come first, the taglist above is ordered by
importance so "xml" is more important than "html" - so I'm looking for a
design pattern for the search - I guess this has been done so many times and
its an art - so I'd like not to reinvent the wheel?


Not a fact comparing to memory arrays, :-)

but you did not mention size of your table, i.e. How many records.



I have 4-10,000 handlers to search, which could grow several fold if other
people submitted handlers, each of which has keywords added and associated
metadata partucularly urls, the handlers are stored as text files in svn,
keywords are automatically generated from handlers, and customised by the
contributor.



2) Do you think about LOCAL db, or you need access remote server ?
it seems if you talk about lists or SqlLite, it is local
right ?



Yes - but mirrored on the server. The server would have the same schema as
the local db, users could search the online db for individual handlers, or
download the whole library via svn or other methods and search fast locally
within the ide.

3) for now I can give this point:

Valentina API (and V4REV) also, has LOW LEVEL API calls.

  * Update S(r) in the list of Widow asynchronous.
---

Above this is the only algorithm to split the whole task into few steps on
low level and get asynchronous execution as you did want.



Sounds good - but how does the asynchronous execution work - does the
external issue callbacks you can trap in Rev?
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Re: Database - quickest way to do this?

[william humphrey]

I used to use entourage on mac too for all my emails but I have had to
send a lot of it to gmail now because entourage begins to bog down to
nearly terminal slowness when it has a lot of email archived in
various folders.

On 6/10/07, David Bovill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Valentina Valentina Valentina Valentina Valentina

On 10/06/07, Ruslan Zasukhin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I use MS Entourage for MAC, and have setup for each list a rule,
> So if letter contains e.g. word "Valentina" it play sounds


Ah - so what sounds do you hear - maybe it would sound nicer if it played
something in different pitches depending on the font size? :)
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Re: Database - quickest way to do this?

[Ruslan Zasukhin]

On 10/6/07 4:57 PM, "David Bovill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>> So I guess I do an "or" SQL search for all these keywords, and then loop
>>> through them checking hits. Or do I do "AND" searches, and iterate
>> replacing
>>> the "AND" with "OR" to widen the search?
>> 
>> 1) Actually it is not clear:
>> your result should contain OR or AND for words?
>> 
>>   word1 AND word2 ...
>> or
>>   word1 OR word2 ...
> 
> 
> Sorry - to be clear. Lets call it a find similar search.
> 
> I have a handler that is tagged "xml,html,array,add,combine,base64,david...
> etc" and I want to find siilar handlers ranked by priority, so handlers
> which contain all the keywords come first, the taglist above is ordered by
> importance so "xml" is more important than "html" - so I'm looking for a
> design pattern for the search - I guess this has been done so many times and
> its an art - so I'd like not to reinvent the wheel?

Well, Valentina do not have built-in such feature "ranked search by words".

Interesting take a look on other dbs as MS SQL, Oracle. If they have this,
then I think implement algorithm will be deal of 7-15 days for team.

And THIS way - will be the fastest I think :-)
Because engine will do task at C++ level.

>> 2) Do you think about LOCAL db, or you need access remote server ?
>> it seems if you talk about lists or SqlLite, it is local
>> right ?
> 
> Yes - but mirrored on the server. The server would have the same schema as
> the local db, users could search the online db

But around DB will be some middleware, e.g. On PHP or Revolution?
If yes, then for this middleware, DB still looks as local.

> for individual handlers, or download the whole library via svn or other
> methods and search fast locally within the ide.
> 
> 3) for now I can give this point:
>> Valentina API (and V4REV) also, has LOW LEVEL API calls.
>> 
>>   * Update S(r) in the list of Widow asynchronous.
>> ---
>> 
>> Above this is the only algorithm to split the whole task into few steps on
>> low level and get asynchronous execution as you did want.
> 
> 
> Sounds good - but how does the asynchronous execution work - does the
> external issue callbacks you can trap in Rev?

No callbacks.

Just you have at least 3 independent tasks:

a) search of the next SET for WordN
b) algorithm that ACCUMULATE Last search into RESULT
c) display of LAST result to user.

So it is possible do these tasks more or less in parallel way, using 3
threads. I.e. Your code provides asynchronous.
 
But may be for 10K records in T1 linked to 50-100K records in T2,
It is not so big time, if engine self will do such command.
As I understand you expect to have about 0.1-0.3 second to be fast for user.

-- 
Best regards,

Ruslan Zasukhin
VP Engineering and New Technology
Paradigma Software, Inc

Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

[I feel the need: the need for speed]


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custom color chooser

[Jan Sælid]

Hi folks

Does anyone know if there exists a custom color chooser or wheel made in  
revolution that I can build on?


my version is Rev. 2.7.4

Thanks

Jan
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Re: custom color chooser

[Eric Chatonet]

Hi Jan,

Le 10 juin 07 à 17:30, Jan Sælid a écrit :

Does anyone know if there exists a custom color chooser or wheel  
made in revolution that I can build on?


 does not suits you needs?
What do you want to add to OS color choosers?

Best regards from Paris,
Eric Chatonet.

Plugins and tutorials for Revolution: http://www.sosmartsoftware.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]/



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Re: Open Source (was Don't you just wish Rev would do this?)

[Chipp Walters]

On 6/10/07, David Bovill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Chipp - would it not be the best for "stability" to have the  existing
release cyle as "stable", and those wishing to live on the bleeding edge
(and get faster bug fixes and to participate in experimental features) to
opt in for the sort of release cycle that others are requesting?



I believe that is what 'beta testing' is for.

It's really just making the beta

programme more visible (ie its a plugin and an actively discussed option).
I
for one have only ever heard of beta testing once or twice as an aside on
this list. Stability is usually achieved by getting as much and as early
user testing as possible. I'd open things up a bit, with a clear
disclaimer,
and a plugin along the lines of that being discussed.



I  know Bill Marriot has been a big proponent of beta-testing here on this
list and on the Improve-list. There is a procedure for signing up for
beta-testing and getting the updates. The Enterprise users do have access to
upcoming beta versions via the current update functionality.
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Re: W(h)ither Rev??? - (was sundry recent rants, with ever-increasing parentheses and unending tree branches)

[Andre Garzia]

Mike et al.

I am not an investor. I produce open source apps and closed source
apps in Rev. I produce them in Macs and deliver in windows and linux
with success. And yes, I build web applications in Rev.

I am not biased. Some stuff could be made simpler or easier, like the
FFI and being able to use native syntax but I don't think and open
source revolution is the way to go now. I belive we would not have
that wonderful team we have working full time on the product if we
went opensource.

There are many threads on this list by people telling runrev how to
manage their business. Of all the xTalks out there, they appear to be
the only one gaining grounds and staying up. And I keep seeing lots of
"I know more bout management of a company than all you guys" mails on
the list. They are closed source, that does not mean tyranny or that
we're on a fight with them.

I am getting really tired of those threads. No one said a single
plausible, logical, reason to go open source now. I don't care about
20 years ago, Rev is not HC. RunRev is not Apple, Adobe or Google.

RunRev is a small team company in scotland.

We can work together, we've been doing that for years and we're doing
fine. If you guys belive that open source would squash bugs, then why
don't you gather a group and build regression tests. Then when RunRev
team builds a new engine, they can try your tests and please you.

I am tired of OSS pointless discussions... I want to get back to
talking code, software and things like that.

We can build repositories of code you know, there are plenty, we even
have a subversion external that Chris and Chipp presented in RevCon
West.

We can build open source libraries, check libCGI or my EasyCGI.

We can build web applications, we could do better in that area, but
still we can! check http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/lexicon
for a web app made with Rev.

I don't understand what are you guys in need of.

andre
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Re: Ground Control to Revolution

[Chipp Walters]

On 6/10/07, Scott Kane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




> Meanwhile, Python (and all the other open source alternatives) will be
> moving on.  Python is and will remain professionally documented, with
half
> a dozen
> excellent tutorial and reference texts, electronic and paper.  Hetland's
> book, for instance, is what Dan Shafer's book should have become had it
> gone
> to a second edition.  Its one of many.

I'm yet to find one major commercial product written in Python.  I suppose
they exist, but as I say, I've not run into one yet. I suspect having said
that I shall be given a list.AFA the actual coding in Python I've
not
tried it and presently have no need to do so.




I've written a small wxPython cross-platform app. It's called VueToolbar and
it's toolbar plugin manager along with a number of python scripts which
works for e-on software's 3D program, Vue.

Thank heavens I don't have to make a living writing wxPython. I, agree, I
couldn't find any slick examples of commercial grade quality apps written in
wxPython either.

Which really is an interesting way of evaluating something. Instead of
'reading the cover', read the book. When I look to purchase a 3D
application, I typically look at the work it has created first. If there's
nothing good, then I typically move on. Not to say Open Source hasn't
created some fine stuff-- including this browser I am currently using.

I, personally, also tend to weigh what is said, by who said it. A person who
shouts from the ground instructions on how best to climb a tree, IMO, is
less vested in not falling than a person at the top of the tree. It's just
human nature.

Who's advice regarding tree-climbing would you take?

-Chipp
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Re: Open Source (was Don't you just wish Rev would do this?)

[Bob Warren]

Chipp wrote:


Updating Rev each time a bug fix is made, could be a dicey proposition, as

typcially after a bug is fixed, there still should be unit testing, then
more inside testing, then beta testing, then rc testing, etc. to make sure
fixing the bug didn't break other stuff. I think Rev has taken the position
to do all this in the same cycle, which for a company with limited
resources, is a good way (IMO) to go.

The existing architecture of course could do just as you suggest. But my
biggest fear with a system like this would be we would never end up with a
fairly stable release. The complexity of Rev could create unforseen problems
when fixing one bug only to see a ripple effect of it creating many more.

--
Chipp,

I am just as concerned about stability as you are. But to help explain the 
basis of my suggestion better, imagine the following situation:

You go to a restaurant, sit down, and order your meal. After what seems to be an 
eternity, the waiter comes to you and says, "Well sir, your dinner is ready, but the 
chef has made such an awful mess in the kitchen that you need to help clean it up for an 
hour before you can sit down to eat."

I imagine your reply would not be very polite! Although it is not an exact 
parallel, there is something of the essence of this situation in what happens 
at Rev. The Rev production procedures generate too many bugs, and this needs to 
be corrected as much as possible.

What I have suggested does not subtract from the current production procedures, 
but I am not sure that it adds to them. However, you are quite right to point 
out the economic considerations. Apart from the normal procedures of 
production, testing and final release, I have suggested a post-release cleanup, 
hopefully to be completed before the next release is due. But don't Rev have to 
do this anyway? As far as I can see it, you can either prevent bugs, or you can 
cure them. At the moment, Rev seems to prefer to cure them. I am now suggesting 
greater prevention, that's all.

What also gets in the way is Rev's insistence on exaggerated secrecy about the 
exact contents of their plans. I appreciate the considerations, but such 
exaggeration also prevents open user participation in the production process. 
Your are probably tired of my plugging Ubuntu, but Rev could well take a leaf 
out of their book. This is what they do, and it works very well:

1. Their exact plans for the next release are published.
2. Work begins on the next release, and a certain amount of work is achieved.
3. As work progresses, they produce a series of "alpha" releases: "alpha 1", "alpha 2", 
"alpha 3", and so on. These are completely free for the public to download and test. When members of the 
public find bugs, they are reported through the normal channels.
4. Finally, they get to the beta stage, where all the additional procedures of 
global testing are applied. Normally, a single version is all that is necessary.
5. When they are satisfied, the new release is unleashed.

There is no "signing on" or forms to fill in/out to be granted the "privilege" 
of participation in alpha or beta testing. All are immediately welcome. The public's participation 
in alpha releases, beta releases and post-production debugging is identical, and non-beaurocratic.

In sum, I would suggest that the best way of offsetting the costs incurred by 
really adequate bug prevention is to involve the users in the production 
process.

Finally, I would also suggest that no really new ideas are necessary in order 
to improve things at Rev. You just have to look at what other people do and 
adapt the good ideas out there to your own needs.

Bob


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Re: W(h)ither Rev??? - (was sundry recent rants, with ever-increasing parentheses and unending tree branches)

[Joe Lewis Wilkins]

Andre,

You have just spoken for the silent majority!

Joe Wilkins

On Jun 10, 2007, at 9:34 AM, Andre Garzia wrote:


Mike et al.
< snip >

I don't understand what are you guys in need of.

andre
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RE: Mac Icon problem

[Robert Mann]

Tom, 

Thank for a great tutorial on how to get paypal to work with rev. I am
attempting to get it working with my new app, but looking over the files you
have posted the 

http://www.discamus.com/nunc/how/myLibUrl.rev

returns a file not found, and you say you need this to POST, what is in this
file?

 

Thanks

Robert Mann

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Re: Ground Control to Revolution

[Ken Ray]

> I'd like to make it perfectly clear that I do not oppose in any way 
> people making code available for free (or whole applications or even 
> programming languages) if the owner wishes to do that.  I do oppose 
> the doctrine that all code should be open and free.

So it looks like we've hit an "agree to disagree" moment among those 
that have provided input on this thread, so let's move on or take it 
off list, IMHO.

A great man once said: "There are two kinds of people in this world: 
those that divide things into two groups, and those that don't."

;-)

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software, Inc.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
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Re: Open Source (was Don't you just wish Rev would do this?)

[Bob Warren]

Chipp:

What I didn't mention about Ubuntu's procedure is the following. It 
after release they find  significant bugs, they correct them in a new 
"bugfix" version, submitted to the normal procedures of global testing. 
However, it is the exception rather than the rule. This is NOT what I 
suggested in my original proposal, but the preparedness to make 
exceptions in this way if really necessary would also allay your fears 
about stability I imagine.


But I am still not convinced that it would be necessary in the kind of 
system I proposed. That bugs should occur is natural and normal, even 
with the best prevention. What matters is the TURNAROUND, i.e. the time 
between discovering the bug, fixing it, and returning the fix to the 
user. Three months (or in the case of Linux, 2 years or more) is not 
good enough. If there was anything wrong with post-production patches 
downloaded in the way I suggest, you would soon know about it!** And 
provided they were given absolute priority for correction and the 
issuing of new patches, the system would still be better than the 
current one.


[** And it should be remembered that even good beta testing doesn't 
catch everything anyway. A great number of bugs are found post-release, 
and always will be. But hopefully, these should be the least significant 
bugs.]


Bob

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Re: Ground Control to Revolution

[Scott Kane]

From: "Ken Ray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


So it looks like we've hit an "agree to disagree" moment among those
that have provided input on this thread, so let's move on or take it
off list, IMHO.

A great man once said: "There are two kinds of people in this world:
those that divide things into two groups, and those that don't."

;-)


Agreed.  Though I don't wish to take it off list - I've said all I want to 
say on the subject.  :-)


Scott Kane 


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Re: W(h)ither Rev??? - (was sundry recent rants, with ever-increasing parentheses and unending tree branches)

[Judy Perry]

As a hobbyist/daft-headed academic, I don't understand this remark.

When Metacard was $1,000 a license and I complained to Rev that
hobbyist/academics couldn't afford/wouldn't pay $1,000 a license, they
came out with a series of reasonably-priced feature-reduced versions to
meet the hobbyist/academic need.

Dan Shafer & Rev produced a much-needed book aimed at the same.

Rev & Jacque organized a series of web-based conference and tutorial
stacks.

And I am reasonably certain that there are other similar examples that I'm
just not recalling at the moment.

Judy

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007, Mike Harland wrote:

> Rev continues to contemplate its own navel with all its talk of
> 'pros' on this list, while consistently looking down its nose at the
> so-called hobbyist, newby or daft-headed academic



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Re: [OT] The switch of perception

[Bob Warren]

n 10 Jun 2007, at 9:40, Bob Warren wrote:


>
> Sorry, I realize this is not the place to discuss (even relevant)  
> psychology really, but I was disappointed by what happened.

>
> Bob
  

Luis wrote:

I wouldn't be. You have evolved/moved forward. That's a gain in my  
books.


Cheers,

Luis.

---
That's very nice of you to say so. Thank you very much, Luis.

Cheers,
Bob


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W(h)ither Rev??? - (was sundry recent rants, with ever-increasing parentheses and unending tree branches)

[Bob Warren]

Mike Harland wrote:

Having read the latest Mathewson v. Kane mini-rant, I thought it was  
about time somebody long-in-the-tooth, white-haired and Gandalf-like  
synthesised a few things. As a persistent, silent reader for many  
years on this list, I assume I can be allowed one message of  
(positively) negative comment before I am banned or threatened with  
legal action!


etc.

--
Certainly much-appreciated from this end Mike, and thanks for breaking the 
silence.

Regards,

Bob (Warren)

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Scripter's Scrapbook as a front-end repository

[FlexibleLearning]

(Was in Re: Imagine a world in which HyperCard had been open sourced 20  
years ago?)


David, Ken, Chipp, Jacque et al,

As a mature  product, the Scripter's Scrapbook is certainly an option for a 
front-end  repository given its flexibility to store hard-wired content (in the 
form of  Entries with or without embedded files), or hyperlinks to local, 
networked or  on-line resources, or indeed any combination. And, as Ken points 
out, there is  already an online 'private' code repository for ssBk users. I 
would *love* to  link ssBk to an 'open' code repository. There are a couple of 
ways which  immediately come to mind, and I'm always happy to discuss options 
and implement  requests if they are do-able.

David:
You were going to look into using the existing ssBk API to see if that  
already gives you the keys you need. Did you get anywhere? Perhaps contact me  
off-list?

/H
FLCo
Home of The Scripter's Scrapbook
www.ssbk.co.uk


David  Bovill wrote:
> Ken - I talked to Hugh about doing this work before going  off to the 
states.
> I am back now, and quite happy to mirror "Scripter's  Scrapbook" to the web
> backend I've got up - if Hugh is still up for  that.

Ken Ray wrote:
> Well, there is an online code repository  accessible through the
> Scripters Scrapbook with 69 entries in it at the  moment, and my
> intention was to mirror those entries on the web, but I  haven't had the
> time. Having it in the Scrapbook though is more useful  as it uses a
> consistent format, is categorized by language, author,  etc.

Chipp Walters wrote:
> David,
> Perhaps a good start  would be creating your own website and posting your
> code there with the  appropriate license and disclaimers. Start with only a
> few. As people  become comfortable with using your libraries, you can start
> adding more.  It doesn't have to be a large project unless you really want 
it
> to  be.

Jacque wrote:
> I would love to see this happen. Preferably,  the site would be at a
> common, public repository (SourceForge, maybe?)  so that even non-Rev
> people would perhaps stumble across it. This would  not only give us a
> single place to find everything, but possibly  increase Revolution's
> exposure to the general public, which would be a  very good thing.
>
> Even though I read the list religiously and  have lots of bookmarks to
> various Rev sites, it is still hard to  remember whose site has what and
> even whether anyone has written a  library or plugin for what I need.
> RevOnline doesn't offer a good search  mechanism, so I'm not sure what is
> there unless I browse through  hundreds of entries.
 



   
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W(h)ither Rev??? - (was sundry recent rants, with ever-increasing parentheses and unending tree branches)

[Bob Warren]

Andre wrote:

I don't understand what are you guys in need of.

-
Andre:

Brazil's lemma is "Order and Progress" I believe?
Of course, I am just speaking for myself.

Regards,
Bob



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Re: W(h)ither Rev??? - (was sundry recent rants, with ever-increasing parentheses and unending tree branches)

[Andre Garzia]

Bob:

we have order and we have progress... runrev is on a nice, orderly
position in the 2.8.x series and have a clear roadmap to progress...

again, what do you want from open source that can't be achieved by
closed source?

Andre

On 6/10/07, Bob Warren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Andre wrote:

I don't understand what are you guys in need of.

-
Andre:

Brazil's lemma is "Order and Progress" I believe?
Of course, I am just speaking for myself.

Regards,
Bob



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Re: Database - quickest way to do this?

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 4:26 PM +0300 6/10/2007, Ruslan Zasukhin wrote:

On 10/6/07 4:13 PM, "David Bovill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 NB - Ruslan what do you use to monitor emails - have you got a Valentina
 database searching for key words - or do you just use GMail :)


I use MS Entourage for MAC, and have setup for each list a rule,
So if letter contains e.g. word "Valentina" it play sounds and mark letter
by blue color.



Then we'd better hope we do not get a prolific list-member named 
"Valentina". ;-)

--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Re: Database - quickest way to do this?

[Andre Garzia]

or some mispelled valentine's day spam during the next week.. :D

On 6/10/07, Jeanne A. E. DeVoto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

At 4:26 PM +0300 6/10/2007, Ruslan Zasukhin wrote:
>On 10/6/07 4:13 PM, "David Bovill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  NB - Ruslan what do you use to monitor emails - have you got a Valentina
>>  database searching for key words - or do you just use GMail :)
>
>I use MS Entourage for MAC, and have setup for each list a rule,
>So if letter contains e.g. word "Valentina" it play sounds and mark letter
>by blue color.


Then we'd better hope we do not get a prolific list-member named
"Valentina". ;-)
--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Hobbyists vs Pros

[Chipp Walters]

This subject keeps coming up..ad infinitum, with some saying the Pros
(defined as people who make their living writing Rev apps) are being smug
and condescending to Hobbyists, as well as anti-this and anti-that.

Most of you know, I'm in the Pro camp. I am able to pay my mortgage,
electricity and buy clothes for my wife and kid solely because of the work I
do in Revolution. I've tried other development languages/scaffolds/IDE's and
find for my clients and our company, Rev consistently outperforms.

Because of this, Revolution, and its' evolution are very important to me. If
the company goes the way of HyperCard or other non-successful commercial and
open source software, it affects me, my company, and especially my family,
considerably.

I have an EXTREME vested interest in Revolution providing a stable platform
for development. It's one of the reasons I am also an Enterprise user and
benefit from Kevin's monthly 'state of the union' posts to the improve-rev
list. As an Enterprise user, I benefit not only from Kevin's RunRev roadmap
and future blueprints, but I also get first crack at beta software. The
improve-list is also monitored by Rev and questions are answered from Mark
Waddingham, the programmer in charge of the last few versions of Rev as well
as future versions.

Just like a house builder generally buys better tools than a hobbyist, many
professional  programmers take advantage of Enterprise licenses because they
get better service and tools as well. And just like the house builders tools
are more expensive, so is Rev Enterprise.

I am NOT an investor in Revolution. I have no direct link to Edinburgh other
than to say 'hello' to Kevin, Heather, Mark and Lynn once every couple of
month in an email. I feel I get GREAT value from the Rev Enterprise
solution- value which goes above much which has been mentioned here on the
use-list in the past few days.

Probably the reason for some of the 'Pro' reaction to the Open Source
thread, is that it REALLY is our livelyhood which is being discussed. Please
imagine if someone suggested changing the tools which affected your ability
to make a living-- I'm sure many of you would also have a problem at some
point.

That said, while many of those of us making a living do have problems with
Rev's approach, from time to time, it is clear to me they have been doing a
great job for the past year. I am secure and confident in providing my
paying clients and customers with a platform choice I believe has legs for
many years to come.

Furthermore, many of us who do make a living with Rev, do try and give back
to the community.

Richard Gaskin hosts revJournal, and has given greatly to the OpenSource MC
IDE initiative as well as providing mutliple stacks of code for hobbyist use
in devolution.

Ken Ray has managed for years perhaps the best website ever for Rev tips and
tricks (www.sonsothunder.com ). He also has among his products a free XML
parser available (and a commercial one, too), and Revzilla, an important
helper in managing bug fixes.

Jacque Gay spent a whole year organizing, creating and hosting a plethora of
training stacks/classroom Rev products, all available free.

Eric Chatonet has created some of the best plugins ever for Rev.

Andre Garzia, Trevor DeVore, Jerry Daniels, Scott Rossi and too many more to
mention have contributed in multiple ways to help this community grow. So,
while it's perhaps fashionable to bash those making a living with Rev, I
sometimes wonder where this community would be without them.

Lastly I'll mention this. I am a hobbyist 3D user:


I make no money from it, but enjoy using the tool, Vue6-Infinite, immensely.
I also participate in a number of the 3D forums (Renderosity, CGTalk, etc..)
and I find the loudest complainers against Vue6 are other hobbyists. This
isn't meant to say all hobbyists are complainers, just that most of the
disgruntled are not making a living in 3D. I have my own theories why this
is.

-Chipp
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Re: Ground Control to Revolution

[Richard Gaskin]

Chipp Walters wrote:


A person who shouts from the ground instructions on how best to climb
a tree, IMO, is less vested in not falling than a person at the top
of the tree.


This is wy off-topic, but has anyone here read this book?:

The Wild Trees: A Story of Passion and Daring


It's about exactly that, Chipp, but literally:  how the scientific 
community has been postulating about life in the upper reaches of the 
world's largest trees, the Giant Sequoias of California, but only in 
recent years have researchers actually climbed up into these trees to 
study life up there directly.


Fascinating stuff

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: W(h)ither Rev??? - (was sundry recent rants, with ever-increasing parentheses and unending tree branches)

[Richard Gaskin]

Andre Garzia wrote perhaps the most cogent statement of all threads on 
open source and quality concerns in the history of this list:



If you guys believe that open source would squash bugs, then why
don't you gather a group and build regression tests.


A lot of folks here share a good many opinions about quality, some about 
the unrealized benefits of open source process, and a few about both.


So now Andre has reminded us that the sum of these posts imply a sort of 
invitation:


Use the open source process to design, build, and deliver a framework 
for automated regression and soak testing, perhaps with a system which 
would allow other to provide additional modules to test other features 
whenever they have time to write them.


  --===--



  --===--

I have plenty of server space at revJournal.com, and as a site that 
bills itself as being "of, for, and by Revolution developers" it seems a 
natural home for such things.


revJournal.com will provide space and FTP access for any Revolution open 
source initiative which is able to get past the prototype stage.  Just 
let me know


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Mac Icon problem

[Bridger Maxwell]

Hey,
 For some reason, a new app created with Revolution doesn't show its icon
immediately.  You can try moving it to a folder where it has never existed
before, or even restarting your computer for Finder to display the
application's proper icon, but I found the quickest way is to zip up the
application bundle then unzip it.
 Another problem I have found is that my build settings do not apply right
if the mainstack is not the top window at the time of the build.

 Thank You,
   Bridger Maxwell
   www.FieryFerret.com

On 6/10/07, Thomas McCarthy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



building a standalone with Rev 2.8.1 on my Mac 10.3.9
My apps are not displaying the icon I've assigned to themit worked
before.

Anyone else have this problem?

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Re: 2.8.1 crashes

[Luis]

Hiya,

Have you tried deleting the 'Runtime Revolution' folder in the Users  
Library/Application Support/ ?


Cheers,

Luis.


On 10 Jun 2007, at 13:58, Friedrich F. Grohmann wrote:



I'm on a Power PC G4 with Mac OS 10.4.9. Everything worked fine  
after I downloaded 2.8.1 (build 470). As recommended, I did a full  
install. No problem for about ten days.


Then I happened to download "BigGanesh". I tried to take a look at  
the stack and Rev crashed (no cause-effect relationship intended,  
just a reconstruction of what happened). Any further attempt to  
open Rev failed. I put it into the trash and reinstalled the whole  
thing. Restarted the computer. Still only crashes.


Strangely enough, after a few hours rest for the computer,  
Revolution happily reappeared. However, a couple of days later it  
began to crash again, and since then I have been unable to open  
2.8.1. The splash screen appears, even the tools palette. But  
whenever either "Loading Tools" or "Loading Menu Bar" is reached, a  
frightening pause interrupts the process, everything Rev related  
disappears and after a certain interval I am informed that the  
application quit unexpectedly.


Earlier Rev versions on the same machine are not affected. Any  
suggestion how to regain access to 2.8.1 are most welcome. Thanks  
in advance.


Fritz



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Re: Hobbyists vs Pros

[Kay C Lan]

On 6/11/07, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


This subject keeps coming up..ad infinitum, with some saying the Pros and
condescending to Hobbyists, as well as anti-this and anti-that.

Most of you know, I'm in the Pro camp.



For those how don't know I'm firmly in the Hobbiest camp and I have been
sitting back reading all these latest OT posts and as always come to same
conclusion - people are just so entrenched in their own point of view; be
it,

Mac vs PC
Commercial vs Open Source
Communism vs Democracy
Capitalism vs Socialism

And no matter how well one one argues their own point of view the others
can't see the forest for the trees.

So my conclusion: Rev must have reached an unprecedented level of stability
(thanks Bill) because I've never noticed so many wasting so much time
writing so much about so little for so long. I think the current OT to 'how
do you do that in Rev posts' is about 15 to 1.


From my perspective Rev is hands down the bees knees best software for ME. I

have a hundred reason why this is so and 10 supporting arguments for each
but I haven't got a chance in changing anyone else's point of view so I
won't bother.

Thanks Kevin and all the Run Rev team
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Re: Hobbyists vs Pros

[Andre Garzia]

So my conclusion: Rev must have reached an unprecedented level of stability
(thanks Bill) because I've never noticed so many wasting so much time
writing so much about so little for so long. I think the current OT to 'how
do you do that in Rev posts' is about 15 to 1.




You know Kay, this piece in you post actually made me laugh, it's
11:00 PM in here, I am frustrated because my network is going down
every two minutes and I can't work, but reading your mail, I just had
to smile, you nailed! :D

Rev must be working fine! :D

Chipp,

thanks for kind words about me, you know, I am giving back to the
community just like you and everyone helped me when I was coming from
RB to Rev :-)

Andre
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Re: Hobbyists vs Pros

[Kay C Lan]

On 6/11/07, Andre Garzia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



You know Kay, this piece in you post actually made me laugh,



Good, as English isn't my first language I get worried that people wont get
the humour.

I am frustrated because my network is going down

every two minutes and I can't work,



Ah, that was me all last week, thunderstorms everywhere, internet connection
only up for 10 sec intervals every 30 sec or so. Gave up and did some work
in Rev instead :-)

I am giving back to the

community just like you and everyone helped me when I was coming from
RB to Rev :-)




How rude of me. Yes, thanks to all the Pro users who have been so kind to
give their time and know how to point this hobbiest in the right direction.

This is the bee's knees best List I've every had the pleasure of
participating in.

Thanks everyone for letting me take so much and give so little back :-)
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OT: Midi music generation

[Sivakatirswami]

Hmm. I just was checking out with Garage band and
discovered there is no export to MIDI.

Anyone know of any good MIDI music generators? it would be nice
if it had musical typing keyboard and a collection of preset sounds
like Garage band has... to bad, you can't export Garage band to MIDI.

One would have thought this would be an option for software instrument
only tracks... But all I cab find is Export to disc as .m4a

Sivakatirswami


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Re: Hobbyists vs Pros

[Chipp Walters]

On 6/10/07, Kay C Lan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

So my conclusion: Rev must have reached an unprecedented level of stability

(thanks Bill) because I've never noticed so many wasting so much time
writing so much about so little for so long. I think the current OT to
'how
do you do that in Rev posts' is about 15 to 1.



Smartly said!
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Re: Curious QT playback problem

[Devin Asay]

On Jun 8, 2007, at 11:13 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:


Devin Asay wrote:

Jacque,
You said the user has QT Pro, right? That means she can save  
movies from the QT player. Is it possible that she has opened and  
saved the movies after having played them to the end? So that the  
"currentTime" is in effect saved with the movie. Would that then  
cause the movie to open at the end instead of at the beginning,  
therefore end immediately after they are started? If that were the  
case, you could just set the currentTime to 0 before you play the  
video.
Just a thought that occurred to me. I'm not even sure about the  
saving currentTime part, but it's a possibility.


Good thoughts, but... the script sets the currentTime to zero  
before each playback starts. I'm not sure saving a movie also saves  
its current time anyway; don't they always open at the beginning?


I did get more info from the customer. There is no virus checker  
running automatically (she does manual checks) so that's not the  
issue (so much for that hope.) The loop does run, she can tell  
because the corresponding images flash past. It looks like we're  
either going to have to write a special app that does some logging,  
or just wait till someone else has the problem too, to see if it is  
worthwhile to pursue it. This is when I wish I could just go to  
that machine and run it myself -- but she's


See if she'll install a VNC server or enable Microsoft Remote Desktop  
Connection. Then you could either take control of her computer (VNC)  
or log in to a session on her machine (RDC) and see for yourself what  
is happening. Of course, you'd both need pretty healthy internet  
connection speeds. Not to mention the fact that rev performs very  
poorly at present under RDC.


Devin


Devin Asay
Humanities Technology and Research Support Center
Brigham Young University

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Re: Mac Icon problem

[J. Landman Gay]

Thomas McCarthy wrote:

building a standalone with Rev 2.8.1 on my Mac 10.3.9
My apps are not displaying the icon I've assigned to themit worked before.

Anyone else have this problem?


All the time, it's a Mac OS X Finder glitch. Here are some things I've 
tried. All of them work sometimes, but only a couple of them work all 
the time. They all try to do the same thing, which is to force the 
Finder to rebuild its data cache.


1. Zip the app, then unzip it. Works almost always.

2. Run this applescript, which works some of the time:

  tell application "Finder"
update "path:to:my:application"
  end tell

3. Select the app in the Finder, do "Get Info" on it. Click on the icon 
box and type the Delete key. Works about half the time.


4. In a terminal window, or in a Rev shell command, run a "touch" 
command. This works (so far) all the time. This is the one I'm using the 
most lately. In Rev:


  get shell("touch path/to/my/application")

Also, if you wait long enough, eventually the Finder will figure out it 
needs to update its cache and the icon will miraculously appear. This 
can happen any time from minutes to days, depending on usage.


If you send your app to someone else or copy it to another machine, the 
right icon will always appear. The problem is only on the build machine.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: OT: Midi music generation

[Kay C Lan]

On 6/11/07, Sivakatirswami <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



One would have thought this would be an option for software instrument
only tracks... But all I cab find is Export to disc as .m4a



Not the answer you are looking for, but just a slight correction. As a work
around you can export to iTunes which will convert the whole song to the
AIFF format, and then to MP3, AAC or WAV if you wish.

For anyone who wanted their GB creations in anything other than m4a.

HTH
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Re: Mac Icon problem

[Sarah Reichelt]

> building a standalone with Rev 2.8.1 on my Mac 10.3.9
> My apps are not displaying the icon I've assigned to themit worked before.
>
> Anyone else have this problem?

All the time, it's a Mac OS X Finder glitch. Here are some things I've
tried. All of them work sometimes, but only a couple of them work all
the time. They all try to do the same thing, which is to force the
Finder to rebuild its data cache.

1. Zip the app, then unzip it. Works almost always.

2. Run this applescript, which works some of the time:

   tell application "Finder"
 update "path:to:my:application"
   end tell

3. Select the app in the Finder, do "Get Info" on it. Click on the icon
box and type the Delete key. Works about half the time.

4. In a terminal window, or in a Rev shell command, run a "touch"
command. This works (so far) all the time. This is the one I'm using the
most lately. In Rev:

   get shell("touch path/to/my/application")


I wrote myself an Automator script to do this, so I just right-clickon
the file, select "Touch" from the Automator menu, and away it goes. If
anyone is interested, I can post the details.

Cheers,
Sarah
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Re: 2.8.1 crashes

[Friedrich F. Grohmann]

On 11 Jun 2007, at 07:14, Luis wrote:


Have you tried deleting the 'Runtime Revolution' folder in the  
Users Library/Application Support/ ?




Thank you so much for the inspiration. It wasn't the folder you  
indicated but the preferences. I threw them out and now everything  
seems to work fine again. If memory serves me right, the first time  
in all the years I've been using Revolution that something untoward  
happened to the preferences.


Anyway, thanks again.

Fritz

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Re: 2.8.1 crashes (Preferences?)

[Joe Lewis Wilkins]

Out of curiosity, shouldn't the old preferences work with new  
versions? Unless the new version changes the order, nature or  
quantity of preferences, I would think so. In which case, shouldn't  
we announce with the release of a new version that such and such has  
been changed, necessitating the deleting of the old ones? Or perhaps  
that is done in a ReadMe that none of us takes the time to read - as  
we should?


Joe Wilkins

On Jun 10, 2007, at 9:47 PM, Friedrich F. Grohmann wrote:


On 11 Jun 2007, at 07:14, Luis wrote:


Have you tried deleting the 'Runtime Revolution' folder in the  
Users Library/Application Support/ ?




Thank you so much for the inspiration. It wasn't the folder you  
indicated but the preferences. I threw them out and now everything  
seems to work fine again. If memory serves me right, the first time  
in all the years I've been using Revolution that something untoward  
happened to the preferences.


Anyway, thanks again.

Fritz

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line wraps

[-= JB =-]

How can I find which character of a line the
line break is used when a line wraps.

I know it can be done with various math
calculations by setting the dontwrap to
false and comparing it with the width of
the field but it is a bad idea visually due
to if the lockscreen is true it still shows the
line wrap being changed when you set
the dontwrap property.

thanks,
-=>JB<=-

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Re: line wraps

[Ken Ray]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:30:54 -0700, -= JB =- wrote:

> How can I find which character of a line the
> line break is used when a line wraps.
> 
> I know it can be done with various math
> calculations by setting the dontwrap to
> false and comparing it with the width of
> the field but it is a bad idea visually due
> to if the lockscreen is true it still shows the
> line wrap being changed when you set
> the dontwrap property.

Depending on the line you want to check, you can use the 
'formattedText' property - which will return you the data from the 
field with hard returns where it has wrapped naturally. So to get the 
number of characters for the first line of text in a field:

  put length(line 1 of the formattedText of field 1)

Keep in mind that the problem with calculating the number of characters 
is that proportional fonts will mess up your calculations. 

But hopefully this puts you on the right course,

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software, Inc.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
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Re: Mac Icon problem

[Ken Ray]

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:05:25 -0500, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> 4. In a terminal window, or in a Rev shell command, run a "touch" 
> command. This works (so far) all the time. 

I'm using Path Finder instead of Finder, and the context menu has a 
"Touch" command that I use just for this purpose. I highly recommend 
Path Finder if you haven't looked at it yet (http://www.cocoatech.com/).


Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software, Inc.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
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Re: line wraps

[-= JB =-]

On Jun 10, 2007, at 10:43 PM, Ken Ray wrote:


Depending on the line you want to check, you can use the
'formattedText' property - which will return you the data from the
field with hard returns where it has wrapped naturally.



Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software, Inc.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/


   Hi Ken,

   Thanks for taking the time to reply but the problem
   is I want to know where it wraps without using the
   hard return.  So when a line wraps automatically &
   it does not have a return I want to know what char
   is the last char on the line before it wraps.

   -=>JB<=-

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Re: line wraps

[-= JB =-]

When the line wraps without a return is there a
char with an ascii code used that I can check
to see when it is used instead of a return.

-=>JB<=-

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