[OT] Re: Revolution = Flash
Hiya, Content aside, that's one of the best written texts I've seen in a long while. If this comes naturally to you, that's a gift. If you've worked at it, the craftsmanship shows. This is written regardless of personal opinion (that's should not be taken to imply anything). Cheers, Luis. On 12 Oct 2007, at 01:51, Richard Gaskin wrote: Ken's post raised the question of the cost/benefit ratio of developing a Rev plugin, and while it touched on many of the highlights on the cost side it didn't address much of the benefit side. I can't really call that an omission from his post, as I don't believe there are many, if any at all. The few ostensible benefits are seductive but generally haven't held up well to analysis in previous discussions. Let's take a look at them: The main ostensible benefit of a plugin is that it lightens the load for deploying Rev-based media. Just hand out a URL, the story goes, and that's all the user needs to run your stuff. That's true only to the degree that someone takes up the suggestion of building a JavaScript library for common Rev tasks, and writes an exporter to translate Rev stuff for true browser-only deployment. Thus far no one has pursued this, and it remains the only option that truly addresses the central issue of zero- installation. Even if a browser plugin were available, you still wouldn't be able to run Rev media until you first convince IT staffers among your target audience that they should locate, download, and install this plugin on all systems expected to run Rev. If you could win that argument with IT over plugins in the future, you can win it today to deploy a standalone that acts as a browser's helper app, downloading and running any Rev stacks it needs, right now. But if you can't win that argument, whether it's a plugin or a helper app standalone won't matter: it won't get installed, and your user still won't be able to run your Rev stacks. Rev-based helper app standalones provide all of the benefits of a plugin, and much more. They aren't limited by the browser UI, can retain state information locally, can provide an offline mode if desired, can have multiple windows, etc. etc. And best of all, there's nothing stopping any of us from deploying such systems with the technology we have in hand right now. Many of us do. Details on this issue have been covered in depth before -- these three posts may serve as a reasonable summary: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2006-November/ 089327.html http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2006-November/ 090333.html http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2004-February/ 031316.html So what about sites where IT requires true zero-install? Well, even if RunRev saddled themselves with the expense of such a venture, taking time away from more critical priorities to put this in our hands, it still wouldn't be zero-install, and you'd be having the same installation discussion with your customers that you can have today, leaving RunRev free to pursue things with a higher cost/benefit ratio. I have one client whose product market is expanding into segments which require a true zero-install solution. For that product we're writing an exporter which splits the program's logic into two halves, so that on the client we'll deliver the UI and content in HTML/JavaScript, and use a combination of Rev CGI and MySQL providing the other half of the functionality on the server side. Translating the UI to JavaScript, Java, or Flash is the only option for delivering media in a browser which doesn't require an additional installation. If there's a compelling must-have business case to be made for a plugin I'd like to hear it. Over the many years this has been discussed I haven't seen it yet. Sure, it'd be nice to have, but there are a lot of nice-to-haves and a long list of must-haves too. I'd prefer to see RunRev address this nice-to-have after all the must-haves are shipping. And while we wait another few years for RunRev to clear their plates to get into a position where a plugin could be responsibly considered, take a look at all the energy Adobe's putting into AIR: http://labs.adobe.com/showcase/air/ Web 2.0 was about moving ever more functionality into the browser. But as AIR, Google Earth, and other significant initiatives suggest, Web 3.0 is taking place beyond the browser. You can join that revolution right now, 'cause Rev's been doing that extremely well for years. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
Re: OS X - Parental Controls: can't start my runrev runtime
I came across this a few years ago, and discovered that there's an extra tag required in the plist for the application before it can be chosen as an allowed program. Unfortunately I can't remember any more details, except that the tag name was something like CIExecutable. It definitely started with CI. There should be something in the list archives, probably 2004-5. Ian On 12 Oct 2007, at 12:38, andreas wrote: thanks for your hint. However the point is the following. If I follow your advice and choose my app (which is not listed, but can be selected under Other...) then OS X pops up a message like Can't add this app to the list of allowed programms. It seems, that a Revolution Runtime can't be used with OS X Parental Control. - At least not my runtime app. I can't figure why. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OS X - Parental Controls: can't start my runrev runtime
Hiya, You could bypass using Parental Controls with Server Admin Tools, it's not just for servers (free from Apple): http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/serveradmintools1047.html Cheers, Luis. On 12 Oct 2007, at 13:20, Ian Wood wrote: I came across this a few years ago, and discovered that there's an extra tag required in the plist for the application before it can be chosen as an allowed program. Unfortunately I can't remember any more details, except that the tag name was something like CIExecutable. It definitely started with CI. There should be something in the list archives, probably 2004-5. Ian On 12 Oct 2007, at 12:38, andreas wrote: thanks for your hint. However the point is the following. If I follow your advice and choose my app (which is not listed, but can be selected under Other...) then OS X pops up a message like Can't add this app to the list of allowed programms. It seems, that a Revolution Runtime can't be used with OS X Parental Control. - At least not my runtime app. I can't figure why. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: SOAP Library - More
Hi Mark, Thanks a lot for that, I managed to get it working in time for the demo! I've re-structured it quite a bit, I need to fix a few problems, then I'll release it back. I've made it a lot more general purpose and much easier to use. Thanks Again All the Best Dave ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution = Flash
Richard, I agree with Luis, very well written! Regarding a compelling must-have business case to give you, well, there are a LOT of talented programmers in this forum and I'd hate to miss out on a good idea (if you catch my drift). So, a simple question: Why should Runtime Revolution build a plugin to allow Revolution projects to be viewable on the web? Answer: Why should a company choose to program in Revolution when they can use technologies that already work within a web browser? The current software market suggests that all-in-one web solutions are successful. It's easy to suggest that due to the popularity of Google Earth or Widgets that the web is dead, but it's not. People still use the web, and companies are still banking on 'web' products... Google Docs, http://docs.google.com Zoho, http://writer.zoho.com ThinkFree, http://www.thinkfree.com - And the not so obvious 'web products' - MySpace, http://www.myspace.com Facebook, http://www.facebook.com Google, http://www.google.com I feel that developers need to realize that the web itself has become a psudo-platform. Revolution embodies the Build Once, Deploy Everywhere motto, I think that the Web should be included in the 'Everywhere' part. Derek Bump Dreamscape Software http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com Richard Gaskin wrote: Ken's post raised the question of the cost/benefit ratio of developing a Rev plugin, and while it touched on many of the highlights on the cost side it didn't address much of the benefit side. I can't really call that an omission from his post, as I don't believe there are many, if any at all. The few ostensible benefits are seductive but generally haven't held up well to analysis in previous discussions. Let's take a look at them: The main ostensible benefit of a plugin is that it lightens the load for deploying Rev-based media. Just hand out a URL, the story goes, and that's all the user needs to run your stuff. That's true only to the degree that someone takes up the suggestion of building a JavaScript library for common Rev tasks, and writes an exporter to translate Rev stuff for true browser-only deployment. Thus far no one has pursued this, and it remains the only option that truly addresses the central issue of zero-installation. Even if a browser plugin were available, you still wouldn't be able to run Rev media until you first convince IT staffers among your target audience that they should locate, download, and install this plugin on all systems expected to run Rev. If you could win that argument with IT over plugins in the future, you can win it today to deploy a standalone that acts as a browser's helper app, downloading and running any Rev stacks it needs, right now. But if you can't win that argument, whether it's a plugin or a helper app standalone won't matter: it won't get installed, and your user still won't be able to run your Rev stacks. Rev-based helper app standalones provide all of the benefits of a plugin, and much more. They aren't limited by the browser UI, can retain state information locally, can provide an offline mode if desired, can have multiple windows, etc. etc. And best of all, there's nothing stopping any of us from deploying such systems with the technology we have in hand right now. Many of us do. Details on this issue have been covered in depth before -- these three posts may serve as a reasonable summary: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2006-November/089327.html http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2006-November/090333.html http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2004-February/031316.html So what about sites where IT requires true zero-install? Well, even if RunRev saddled themselves with the expense of such a venture, taking time away from more critical priorities to put this in our hands, it still wouldn't be zero-install, and you'd be having the same installation discussion with your customers that you can have today, leaving RunRev free to pursue things with a higher cost/benefit ratio. I have one client whose product market is expanding into segments which require a true zero-install solution. For that product we're writing an exporter which splits the program's logic into two halves, so that on the client we'll deliver the UI and content in HTML/JavaScript, and use a combination of Rev CGI and MySQL providing the other half of the functionality on the server side. Translating the UI to JavaScript, Java, or Flash is the only option for delivering media in a browser which doesn't require an additional installation. If there's a compelling must-have business case to be made for a plugin I'd like to hear it. Over the many years this has been discussed I haven't seen it yet. Sure, it'd be nice to have, but there are a lot of nice-to-haves and a long list of must-haves too. I'd prefer to see RunRev address this
Moving Rev apps to the web (why isn't this on the horizon?)
I think the thread subject on this is actually about Flash, but here is the snippet I'm responding to, from Mikey, Ajax, AIR, Flash. All are ways to make rich internet apps, and all are being accepted as reasonable ways and standards. So, if RR was going to develop a way to move apps to the web, I would argue that it is far easier to gain acceptance if one uses an established method rather than inventing a new one, unless the new one is so revolutionary that it is simply accepted as the reasonable choice. I would argue that at this time there is no such method on the horizon for RR. So basically, my comment is, I wish it _were_ on the horizon. Wouldn't it be kewl if we could built a nice rich client app with RR and then either deploy it as a client in a client server environment, (2 tier) or, as a web app that ran in a browser, a la Ajax, in a 3 tier architecture? I say 3 tier because this is how I've seen a few other IDE's do this, such as Unify's NXj. I recently saw one called Servoy at the Dr. Dobbs Software Development Best Practices Conference in Boston. I made the comment to Swami that this is what I wish RR were like - it's a strong database centric approach. You get a nice IDE that is comparible to RR but with more database support, and you need an app server also. Once you build an app you can deploy it as client server or a browser based app with no additional effort. Starting with an existing database, I saw them build an application for add, modify, inquire and delete and deploy in a browser in about 20 seconds. They showed the client app too, no extra time. Really! It looks the same, and works the same, in a browser or as a desktop program. The first time you run it in a browser a small client side (not sure if plugin is the right word) downloads, similar to Flash. By the way, I believe Andre has built an app server entirely in transcript? If you care to see Servoy here is my suggestion Servoy - a Java Development Environment Go to www.servoy.com Go to the tutorials link Run the Introduction to Servoy flash demo This takes about 10 minutes. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
creating scalable web application in rev using mod_load_balancer
Hello Friends, this topic begins the week of web app related articles and posts by yours truly. Encouraged by the previous topics in the previous emails about web application, I'll quickly talk about one of the caveats of building web application server with revolution and propose a solution. Most of our web applications are CGI based. The problems of a CGI approach are: * For all requests a new copy of the engine is launched, the stacks and code loaded. Meaning there's a little (very little) overhead when dealing with each connection. * Your CGI is like a newborn when it starts, it has no clue what is happening, it needs to consult it's sessions and databases to discover where in the workflow it is. Meaning that the stateless nature of the web and cgis do not help when building an application with a complex workflow. * database connections are open and closed with every connection (this is more an elegance problem than an actual problem). * Your application is not running when there's no request so you can execute code during those idle moments. Your apps is only alive when someone is accessing it, when the request is done, the engine is down, you can however use the dead time between answering the browser and shutting down the engine to execute maintenance tasks but this is a hack and not really the best way to deal with the fact that you may need your application code to be always running. During RevConWest I've demoed FastCGI that solved all this problems, specially the last one. I've demoed a simple application that would increment an integer so when you accessed the software you could see the value going up even when you were not using the application. If you can't think of any application that needs to be running at all times just wonder how a stock market web application should behave, how can your client learn about the flunking of SCO paper if the app is not running when it happens? The problem with FastCGI is that it uses a single engine for all connection, so if for some weird reason your code blocks, all the requests block too and your application is on Denial of Service till this is solved. In the end my FastCGI implementation, although cool, was never released to public use due to the pain it would be to support all the blocked services. Now a solution. Yes, I do have a solution that actually solves everything. With Apache web server version 2.0 and up, a new module was released. It is called mod_proxy_balancer. A combination of this module and multiple instances of RevHTTP can do miracles. Apache mod_proxy_balancer will act as a proxy directing chosen connections to it's team members which are called proxyBalancers. One can launch, for example, five instances of RevHTTP and tell apache that those are the five proxybalancers. Then for each request, apache will choose the RevHTTP instance that is available and direct the connection there, if some instance is busy or blocked apache will detect that and direct to some other instance. This creates an average load on all RevHTTP instances and allows your code to be running at all time. You can fine tune that so that apache serves all the static files (html, images) and that your balancer team is just used for the cgi calls thus making the load on them even lower. This technique is being used by the guys from the ruby on rails camp with success. It's used for real world work. Apache will take care of scheduling all the requests, it will also deal with blocked processes and the like. I plan to make a tutorial and example on this shortly. Andre ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: creating scalable web application in rev using mod_load_balancer
Fascinating stuff! Thanks Andre! I'm sure many besides me appreciate your sharing this. Phil Davis Andre Garzia wrote: Hello Friends, this topic begins the week of web app related articles and posts... Now a solution. Yes, I do have a solution that actually solves everything. With Apache web server version 2.0 and up, a new module was released. It is called mod_proxy_balancer. A combination of this module and multiple instances of RevHTTP can do miracles. Apache mod_proxy_balancer will act as a proxy... Apache will take care of scheduling all the requests, it will also deal with blocked processes and the like. I plan to make a tutorial and example on this shortly. Andre ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution = Flash
Brilliant paper, Andre! Since you are fast becoming one of the leading authorities on connecting things Rev and the Web, shouldn't it be you, Andre, that does what Jerry Daniels and Chipp Walters have done: Made a product so important, unique and compelling that Revolution, Inc. would have no choice but to buy it and eventually integrate or bundle it into their product? Or if you set up a project fund method, whatever. I'd pay good money for such a product. It appears you've done tons of reading, research and practical applications. We who've met you know what an intense amount of energy and knowledge you have so... congratulations.. perhaps this is a 'killer app' for you. Web Safe elements!! Web Safe Code. Great idea. What we need is a new tools palette with WEB ELEMENTS and a converter plugin. This plugin would know how to convert those elements to the web. Then Revolution becomes like Apple Interface Builder, you have a set of palettes to build an interface that can be accessed later by your web application. Instead of trying to convert a stack app to the web, we begin from the start building a web application using web safe elements and web safe code. This can be created inside revolution right now, it just take time and effort. This web safe environment would have conventions like stack script goes to server side component, card script goes to UI Logic component. The stack controls disposition is converted to CSS using absolute positioning. We don't even need the build-upload-debug cycle, we can keep testing all this at runtime by a combination of RevBrowser and RevHTTP inside the IDE. This is easier shown than explained. I'll build something to show in the next two days... andre -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Moving Rev apps to the web (why isn't this on the horizon?)
I would like to add that while Richard has sort of pre-answered my question, with a very thoughtful post, I still wish I could run a rev app in a browser. So basically, my comment is, I wish it _were_ on the horizon. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OS X - Parental Controls: can't start my runrev runtime
Hiya, Are you logged in with Admin rights? Cheers, Luis. On 12 Oct 2007, at 12:38, andreas wrote: Hello Mark thanks for your hint. However the point is the following. If I follow your advice and choose my app (which is not listed, but can be selected under Other...) then OS X pops up a message like Can't add this app to the list of allowed programms. It seems, that a Revolution Runtime can't be used with OS X Parental Control. - At least not my runtime app. I can't figure why. Kind regards Andreas Stämpfli Am 11.10.2007 um 12:02 schrieb Mark Schonewille: Andreas, Open System Preferences. Click on Accounts to open the Accounts pane. Click on the Parental Controls tab on the right. Activate Finder.app Sytem. Click on Configure. Activate checkbox User can only use the following programmes:. Click on the Applications triangle to open this list. Find your standalone. If it is not listed, see if it is listed under Other. If it is not listed, click on Search to add it. When it is listed, make sure that your standalone is checked. Now your limited users can use the standalone. For a demo, see: http://www.apple.com/macosx/theater/ parentalcontrols.html. Best regards, Mark Schonewille -- Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering http://economy-x-talk.com http://www.salery.biz Quickly extract data from your HyperCard stacks with DIFfersifier. http://differsifier.economy-x-talk.com Op 11-okt-2007, om 11:32 heeft andreas het volgende geschreven: Hello I came across this problem, because a school would like to use my app with Parental Control on. However, if I select my runtime app, it is not possible to activate it. (Most, when not all other software on this computer can be selected. Why not my runtime app? Help is very welcome on this topic. Kind regards Andreas Stämpfli ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: creating scalable web application in rev using mod_load_balancer
Wait for the demo phil!!! ;-) it will rock! :D Cheers and thanks for the kind words. Andre On 10/12/07, Phil Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fascinating stuff! Thanks Andre! I'm sure many besides me appreciate your sharing this. Phil Davis Andre Garzia wrote: Hello Friends, this topic begins the week of web app related articles and posts... Now a solution. Yes, I do have a solution that actually solves everything. With Apache web server version 2.0 and up, a new module was released. It is called mod_proxy_balancer. A combination of this module and multiple instances of RevHTTP can do miracles. Apache mod_proxy_balancer will act as a proxy... Apache will take care of scheduling all the requests, it will also deal with blocked processes and the like. I plan to make a tutorial and example on this shortly. Andre ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution = Flash
Hello Friends, Again we touch the topic of revolution, plugins, flash and the web. This topic always appear, not because we're stubborn but because it is hot and current. I'll not repeat all things the other mails said but will try to propose a simple solution that can be attained now with the resources we have, it just take a group of developers engaged to make this happen. Exporting from Rev to Flash or Java is not feasible because it ties Rev to a third party product that can take directions that completelly break rev compatibility. Creating such exporter would require a new engine that would run inside the flash or java plugin or it would require a translator that would convert revolution logic to actionscript or java. This poses a problem since the three languages have unique features. It's not that it can't be done, it's that it is not worth being done. What people appear to want here is something that would enable them to build AJAX application with Revolution. Create the next 37signals or something like that. Nothing is stopping anyone here from building Revolution based web applications, the problem is that one of the biggest advantages of Rev is lost when building web application, which is the presentation layer. Revolution UI elements are not transferable to the web. So even as if we can code in transcript our web application, we can't build the interface in Rev, we need another set of skills like css, javascript, html to build the UI. So in the end the problem is very simple, our only problem is: how do we map revolution UI to the Web?, if we could map this, then a pure transcript solution for converting stacks to the web would be born in a couple thousand lines. Every web application is divided in the following components: UI, UI logic, Server Side Logic. The UI logic makes the connection between the UI layer and the server side components. This is a variation of the MVC paradigm also called model2 by Sun. We can already create the server side logic, we need to create tools to work out the UI and UI Logic component. The User interface is mostly HTML + CSS + some javascript in some cases (rollover and animation effects). The UI logic is pure javascript (XHR calls and the like). I know we all love Transcript but allow me to say that Javascript is a very nice language supporting some very nice features. It's actually pleasant to code in javascript once you know. The thing is that Rev coder should not be forced to learn javascript or at least that Rev could create basic javascript for the developer so that the end job is just a fine tuning one (like ruby on rails skeletons). To programatically convert UI logic and UI components from Rev to the web is not an easy task. The models are completely different. Rev - Stacks, Cards, Groups, Objects. Most based on fields and buttons. Web - The DOM, CSS, nested nature of HTML. Most based on text and images. Mapping from Rev to the Web is a daunting task, for example, how do you map go next card to the web, what should happen? go to a new page? display a hidden div? What we need is a new tools palette with WEB ELEMENTS and a converter plugin. This plugin would know how to convert those elements to the web. Then Revolution becomes like Apple Interface Builder, you have a set of palettes to build an interface that can be accessed later by your web application. Instead of trying to convert a stack app to the web, we begin from the start building a web application using web safe elements and web safe code. This can be created inside revolution right now, it just take time and effort. This web safe environment would have conventions like stack script goes to server side component, card script goes to UI Logic component. The stack controls disposition is converted to CSS using absolute positioning. We don't even need the build-upload-debug cycle, we can keep testing all this at runtime by a combination of RevBrowser and RevHTTP inside the IDE. This is easier shown than explained. I'll build something to show in the next two days... andre ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Moving Rev apps to the web (why isn't this on the horizon?)
Sadhunathan Nadesan wrote: I would like to add that while Richard has sort of pre-answered my question, with a very thoughtful post, I still wish I could run a rev app in a browser. Indeed. Andre told me about http://www.extjs.com ... I might end up spending a lot more time using that app! I see now why some have said, regarding Rev's lifeline: Don't worry about REal Basic... that's not where the future competition is coming from... and I think Yahoo's new competition to iTunes is a webapp and not a desktop application. So basically, my comment is, I wish it _were_ on the horizon. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution = Flash
Thank you Derek and Luis for the very kind words. Derek Bump wrote: Why should a company choose to program in Revolution when they can use technologies that already work within a web browser? Same reason they would choose RealBASIC or XCode or Visual Studio: they need to make desktop apps. When they want to make web apps they often use Dreamweaver with MySQL and PHP. The current software market suggests that all-in-one web solutions are successful. Depends on what all means. Adobe Illustrator makes a pretty crappy database, and FileMaker Pro is a weak illustration tool. :) Sometimes it's not so bad for an app to nail a specific domain, certainly before it branches out to address new tasks. I'd much sooner see column alignment in fields, reshapable polygons, and a whole lot more before we ask RunRev to devote development resources to something like a plugin. It's easy to suggest that due to the popularity of Google Earth or Widgets that the web is dead, but it's not. I apologize if my post suggested such a dismissal. Of course the web is the single most important technology to have appeared in our lifetime, and it's driving much of the modern world. But the question is not necessarily limited to Can we have a browser plugin for Rev? Maybe a better question would be to step back and look at the bigger picture, asking, How can Rev contribute to my web development? All of the web apps you listed are important, but it's equally important to note that none of them are driven by a plugin. I feel that developers need to realize that the web itself has become a psudo-platform. Revolution embodies the Build Once, Deploy Everywhere motto, I think that the Web should be included in the 'Everywhere' part. The web is definitely an important platform, and has been since the late '90s. Participation in the web is critical for any forward-thinking company, but a plugin is not the answer. Andre's two posts on the subject this morning point to a much more valuable approach. And more importantly, what he proposes can be done right now with what we have in our hands today. Later this quarter I'll be porting an established desktop product to a true zero-install web application. For some background on the app: http://www.runrev.com/newsletter/april/issue24/newsletter2.php We'll be using a combination of HTML, JavaScript, MySQL, Rev CGI, and PHP. We're doing this because IT departments are asking for a zero-install solution, and we're delivering it, and most of it with Rev. We'll maintain the content management system we created for the app as a Rev application, and will still ship the desktop app. But we're adding exporters to generate the web pages (using parts of my WebMerge product, also built with Rev), and migrating our custom search algorithm to the server intact using Rev CGI. It's also important to note that we're keeping one of the most critical parts of the application in desktop form only. This module is a decision support system used in emergency clinics, and those clinics who rely on it can't risk potential network outage anywhere between their terminal and our server due to earthquake etc. Indeed, it's precisely during such catastrophic events that the software will be most critically needed, since the emergency rooms will be full. My hope in outlining this project is to illustrate one approach to web deployment, a real-world example that demonstrates the sorts of ideas Andre's brining up. And in addition, it also provides an example of why some projects make good sense on the web, and others make better sense on the desktop. This project has components that work best in each. We could summarize deployment options available to us today in three categories: - Desktop app The traditional application experiences that still drives most computing. - Web app An application that lives entirely in the browser, ideally requiring no additional software on the client side. - Hybrid/Custom Browser/Helper app Standalones empowered with Internet connectivity, which may include HTTP but can also use a wide range of other common protocols, such as FTP, IRC, and even custom protocols if needed. They can store persistant data locally, and even provide an offline mode if desired (I spend a lot of time on trains). Each type of application has its own strengths and weaknesses, and no single model will be best for all cases. So we just take a good look at our application and what we want to do with it, and choose the model which best serves our goals. These aren't mutually exclusive, but instead compliment one another by giving us a very broad range of options. But best of all, all three can be built with Rev in a central role today. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
Re: Revolution = Flash
I agree with Ken, but for a different reason, unless I slept partway through his post. Ajax, AIR, Flash. All are ways to make rich internet apps, and all are being accepted as reasonable ways and standards. So, if RR was going to develop a way to move apps to the web, I would argue that it is far easier to gain acceptance if one uses an established method rather than inventing a new one, unless the new one is so revolutionary that it is simply accepted as the reasonable choice. I would argue that at this time there is no such method on the horizon for RR. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OS X - Parental Controls: can't start my runrev runtime
Hello Mark thanks for your hint. However the point is the following. If I follow your advice and choose my app (which is not listed, but can be selected under Other...) then OS X pops up a message like Can't add this app to the list of allowed programms. It seems, that a Revolution Runtime can't be used with OS X Parental Control. - At least not my runtime app. I can't figure why. Kind regards Andreas Stämpfli Am 11.10.2007 um 12:02 schrieb Mark Schonewille: Andreas, Open System Preferences. Click on Accounts to open the Accounts pane. Click on the Parental Controls tab on the right. Activate Finder.app Sytem. Click on Configure. Activate checkbox User can only use the following programmes:. Click on the Applications triangle to open this list. Find your standalone. If it is not listed, see if it is listed under Other. If it is not listed, click on Search to add it. When it is listed, make sure that your standalone is checked. Now your limited users can use the standalone. For a demo, see: http://www.apple.com/macosx/theater/ parentalcontrols.html. Best regards, Mark Schonewille -- Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering http://economy-x-talk.com http://www.salery.biz Quickly extract data from your HyperCard stacks with DIFfersifier. http://differsifier.economy-x-talk.com Op 11-okt-2007, om 11:32 heeft andreas het volgende geschreven: Hello I came across this problem, because a school would like to use my app with Parental Control on. However, if I select my runtime app, it is not possible to activate it. (Most, when not all other software on this computer can be selected. Why not my runtime app? Help is very welcome on this topic. Kind regards Andreas Stämpfli ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution = Flash
Hello again I have made some research and progress towards the export to flash SWF files. However I got stuck into the creation of the file where it is needed to have bit level access and editing capabilities. The simple question is Within Revolution how can I edit a string of characters bitwise? For example, if I need to insert or delete 1 bit at any position. Regards, Andres Martinez www.baKno.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Moving Rev apps to the web (why isn't this on the horizon?)
Sannyasin Sivakatirswami wrote: Andre told me about http://www.extjs.com ... I might end up spending a lot more time using that app! Now this is what I'm talking about! Something like Ext JS should be available for Revolution. The ability to create a stack, and then embed it within a web page. I can just imagine the possibilities of something like this (except I'd have to use Ext JS to do it). Derek Bump Dreamscape Software http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution = Flash
What about a Rev cgi running the Rev web UI? It shouldn't need translation to JavaScript. And the Rev web UI: From what I've seen the cards are XML. I've given some time to try to translate these but didn't bother after a while. Cheers, Luis. Andre Garzia wrote: Hello Friends, Again we touch the topic of revolution, plugins, flash and the web. This topic always appear, not because we're stubborn but because it is hot and current. I'll not repeat all things the other mails said but will try to propose a simple solution that can be attained now with the resources we have, it just take a group of developers engaged to make this happen. Exporting from Rev to Flash or Java is not feasible because it ties Rev to a third party product that can take directions that completelly break rev compatibility. Creating such exporter would require a new engine that would run inside the flash or java plugin or it would require a translator that would convert revolution logic to actionscript or java. This poses a problem since the three languages have unique features. It's not that it can't be done, it's that it is not worth being done. What people appear to want here is something that would enable them to build AJAX application with Revolution. Create the next 37signals or something like that. Nothing is stopping anyone here from building Revolution based web applications, the problem is that one of the biggest advantages of Rev is lost when building web application, which is the presentation layer. Revolution UI elements are not transferable to the web. So even as if we can code in transcript our web application, we can't build the interface in Rev, we need another set of skills like css, javascript, html to build the UI. So in the end the problem is very simple, our only problem is: how do we map revolution UI to the Web?, if we could map this, then a pure transcript solution for converting stacks to the web would be born in a couple thousand lines. Every web application is divided in the following components: UI, UI logic, Server Side Logic. The UI logic makes the connection between the UI layer and the server side components. This is a variation of the MVC paradigm also called model2 by Sun. We can already create the server side logic, we need to create tools to work out the UI and UI Logic component. The User interface is mostly HTML + CSS + some javascript in some cases (rollover and animation effects). The UI logic is pure javascript (XHR calls and the like). I know we all love Transcript but allow me to say that Javascript is a very nice language supporting some very nice features. It's actually pleasant to code in javascript once you know. The thing is that Rev coder should not be forced to learn javascript or at least that Rev could create basic javascript for the developer so that the end job is just a fine tuning one (like ruby on rails skeletons). To programatically convert UI logic and UI components from Rev to the web is not an easy task. The models are completely different. Rev - Stacks, Cards, Groups, Objects. Most based on fields and buttons. Web - The DOM, CSS, nested nature of HTML. Most based on text and images. Mapping from Rev to the Web is a daunting task, for example, how do you map go next card to the web, what should happen? go to a new page? display a hidden div? What we need is a new tools palette with WEB ELEMENTS and a converter plugin. This plugin would know how to convert those elements to the web. Then Revolution becomes like Apple Interface Builder, you have a set of palettes to build an interface that can be accessed later by your web application. Instead of trying to convert a stack app to the web, we begin from the start building a web application using web safe elements and web safe code. This can be created inside revolution right now, it just take time and effort. This web safe environment would have conventions like stack script goes to server side component, card script goes to UI Logic component. The stack controls disposition is converted to CSS using absolute positioning. We don't even need the build-upload-debug cycle, we can keep testing all this at runtime by a combination of RevBrowser and RevHTTP inside the IDE. This is easier shown than explained. I'll build something to show in the next two days... andre ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution = Flash
Oops, forgot to mention this link: http://blog.reindel.com/2007/10/11/adobe-air-answers-a-question-that-nobody-is-asking/ Cheers, Luis. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution = Flash
Pleasure. Had to be said. I think most of this might stem from hopeful developers, especially newbies looking at the Rev platform and its deployment capabilities, hoping that it will also go that extra step. Something like my gripe with audio (have to drag that back up again...): I saw its audio capabilities but didn't check it out fully, so I got stuck halfway and then gave it up. It seems like such a small step, yet it's not there. Some may feel, newbies or old hands at Rev, that that little extra step onto the web will be all they will need to get their great new idea out to millions. I feel for them. Note the RevBrowser built in to Rev: That can be misleading, and I can see many thinking to buy on the possibility that this is like a browser plugin. Cheers, Luis. http://blog.reindel.com/2007/10/11/adobe-air-answers-a-question-that-nobody-is-asking/ Richard Gaskin wrote: Thank you Derek and Luis for the very kind words. Derek Bump wrote: Why should a company choose to program in Revolution when they can use technologies that already work within a web browser? Same reason they would choose RealBASIC or XCode or Visual Studio: they need to make desktop apps. When they want to make web apps they often use Dreamweaver with MySQL and PHP. The current software market suggests that all-in-one web solutions are successful. Depends on what all means. Adobe Illustrator makes a pretty crappy database, and FileMaker Pro is a weak illustration tool. :) Sometimes it's not so bad for an app to nail a specific domain, certainly before it branches out to address new tasks. I'd much sooner see column alignment in fields, reshapable polygons, and a whole lot more before we ask RunRev to devote development resources to something like a plugin. It's easy to suggest that due to the popularity of Google Earth or Widgets that the web is dead, but it's not. I apologize if my post suggested such a dismissal. Of course the web is the single most important technology to have appeared in our lifetime, and it's driving much of the modern world. But the question is not necessarily limited to Can we have a browser plugin for Rev? Maybe a better question would be to step back and look at the bigger picture, asking, How can Rev contribute to my web development? All of the web apps you listed are important, but it's equally important to note that none of them are driven by a plugin. I feel that developers need to realize that the web itself has become a psudo-platform. Revolution embodies the Build Once, Deploy Everywhere motto, I think that the Web should be included in the 'Everywhere' part. The web is definitely an important platform, and has been since the late '90s. Participation in the web is critical for any forward-thinking company, but a plugin is not the answer. Andre's two posts on the subject this morning point to a much more valuable approach. And more importantly, what he proposes can be done right now with what we have in our hands today. Later this quarter I'll be porting an established desktop product to a true zero-install web application. For some background on the app: http://www.runrev.com/newsletter/april/issue24/newsletter2.php We'll be using a combination of HTML, JavaScript, MySQL, Rev CGI, and PHP. We're doing this because IT departments are asking for a zero-install solution, and we're delivering it, and most of it with Rev. We'll maintain the content management system we created for the app as a Rev application, and will still ship the desktop app. But we're adding exporters to generate the web pages (using parts of my WebMerge product, also built with Rev), and migrating our custom search algorithm to the server intact using Rev CGI. It's also important to note that we're keeping one of the most critical parts of the application in desktop form only. This module is a decision support system used in emergency clinics, and those clinics who rely on it can't risk potential network outage anywhere between their terminal and our server due to earthquake etc. Indeed, it's precisely during such catastrophic events that the software will be most critically needed, since the emergency rooms will be full. My hope in outlining this project is to illustrate one approach to web deployment, a real-world example that demonstrates the sorts of ideas Andre's brining up. And in addition, it also provides an example of why some projects make good sense on the web, and others make better sense on the desktop. This project has components that work best in each. We could summarize deployment options available to us today in three categories: - Desktop app The traditional application experiences that still drives most computing. - Web app An application that lives entirely in the browser, ideally requiring no additional software on the client side. - Hybrid/Custom Browser/Helper app Standalones empowered
Re: revBrowser and spaces in URLs
Le 10 oct. 07, à 14:39, Henk van der Velden a écrit : Hi Eric, I've tried that already, but without succes. Urlencode turns pdtex 1-2.jpg into pdtex+1-2.jpg. However this doesn't display the file and it doesn't produce an error message either. same thing for me (macOS 10.3.9): the output of URLEncode is unusable. The strangest thing is that it converts slash caracters into %3A for instance I get file%3A%2F%2F%2FVolumes%2FSilverTouch+500+Go%2FUsers%2Fchaplais%2FDocume nts%2FEssais%2FEssai_XeTeX%2FXeTeX-notes.pdf Is there a way to report this kind of bug? In the mean time I've tested this on Win XP and there all works fine. I try to load some files in revBrowser that have spaces in their names (pdtex 1-2.jpg). revBrowser won't display these files. I don't get an error message either. This happens both with local files (file://) and files from a webserver (http://). Is there a workaround for this problem? I have tested the same URL's in Safari, and they are handled OK. This happens on Mac OS X 10.4.10, Safari 3.0.3. I haven't tested on Win yet. Just urlEncode the url first and it should work: see urlEncode/ urlDecode entries in the docs. Kind regards, Henk -- Henk v.d. Velden iGlow Media Francois Chaplais http://cas.ensmp.fr/~chaplais/ ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: revBrowser and spaces in URLs
i just googled URL encoding and I got http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/html/topics/urlencoding.htm my 2 cents Francois Chaplais http://cas.ensmp.fr/~chaplais/ ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: revBrowser and spaces in URLs
On Oct 12, 2007, at 5:41 PM, François Chaplais wrote: same thing for me (macOS 10.3.9): the output of URLEncode is unusable. Hi François, I think there is some confusion of what urlencode is intended for due to the documentation. In Revolution urlencode is meant for encoding the query portion of a URL (everything that comes after the '?' in the url). That is why spaces are encoded as + rather than %20. The PHP docs for urlencode give a nice explanation that applies to urlencode in Rev - http://php.net/urlencode Regards, -- Trevor DeVore Blue Mango Learning Systems www.bluemangolearning.com-www.screensteps.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution = Flash
Luis wrote: Something like my gripe with audio (have to drag that back up again...): I saw its audio capabilities but didn't check it out fully, so I got stuck halfway and then gave it up. It seems like such a small step, yet it's not there. I have my own issues with audio in Rev. What were yours? -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution = Flash
The frequency controls are dire and there is no way to control the balance. I thought the QT external would help, and it does cover he balance aspect, but not the frequency: He's actually posted up a bug report for this. I was going to call an external application to do this or mess around with MIDI files, but they are not clean solutions. Cheers, Luis. Richard Gaskin wrote: Luis wrote: Something like my gripe with audio (have to drag that back up again...): I saw its audio capabilities but didn't check it out fully, so I got stuck halfway and then gave it up. It seems like such a small step, yet it's not there. I have my own issues with audio in Rev. What were yours? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Revolution = Flash
On 10/13/07, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But the question is not necessarily limited to Can we have a browser plugin for Rev? Maybe a better question would be to step back and look at the bigger picture, asking, How can Rev contribute to my web development? That reminds me. What happened to that Rev Survey, I don't remember seeing the results. Were they posted for public viewing somewhere? I generally find such results interesting to peruse, and this one especially as it would be one of the few where I'm not one of the handful of Mac voters amongst a tidal wave of Windows users ;-) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
