Re: Calling all open source developers

[David Bovill]

It is perfectly acceptible to release RevTalk code under the terms of the
GPL, MIT or other licenses. This has been done before, and debated
extensively over the years in other related platforms - even where the
engine itself is closed.

Purists, like to argue over the issue, and debates can get heated (and
usually tedious). My personal point of view is that there is precedence here
and a number of thriving communities have grown up by using open source and
open content licenses in similar circumstances. As that is the purpose, I'll
go with what works and is helpful with regard to community building, and
stick to arguing the philosophy down the pub (which is a much more enjoyable
place for those sort of debates).

Building a practical and truely collaborative open source community around
RevTalk is certainly helped if the "mothership" takes a clear and
encouraging stance on these issues. I have long argued on this list and
elsewhere that RunRev should adopt an explicit "open source strategy" to
encourage proper collaboration between developers on a clear and firm legal
basis. This does not mean open sourcing their engine, but it does mean
taking the small steps needed to support and encourage community efforts in
this area. Releasing the documentation under an open content (Creative
Commons) license would be symbolic and help. Explicitly releasing the code
in the IDE under an MIT or other open source license, and encouraging
integration with other similarly licensed IDEs (like MC IDE) would also
help.

As far as I can gather from talking to Kevin, Mark and the other folks at
RunRev - they have nothing against these moves which I found encouraging. As
far as I can tell it is simply that none of the developers there have
experience of working on open source projects, and the use of open licenses,
and as such they are not quite sure as to how they would support / engage
with such and effort given their limited resources.

I proposed to Kevin and a number of developers at RunRev Live, that maybe we
can move this area forwards by creating a community led project with an
explicit remit to develop open source code libraries and widgets in RevTalk.
This would be an arms length legal entity, with RunRev or any other
interested party able to join as a full member and have a say with regard to
the projects direction.

Based on the positive feedback to these ideas from the conference, I've
decided to put what time I have into taking this forwards with the aim of
launching it in time for the RunRev November launch. The organisation would
be not-for-profit, in that any money derived from activities such as
commercial closed source dual licensing of code libraries would go back into
the pool to pay developers to work on open source libraries. I've discussed
this proposal with a number of funders here in the UK and it seems
encouraging to apply for some grants to develop this community as well.

Any individual developer or company is fully entitled to join, and the
organisation will have an open membership. The aim is simple to define
collectively what tools and resources the community would like to develop as
open source code and resource these efforts. The secondary aim is to engage
with other open source and open content communities, building on the
strengths and accessibility of the language to be immediately understandable
to any programmer, and encourage interoperability between RevTalk and other
open source frameworks.

My personal interest in the project is in the legal and community side, and
I want to combine this with my passion for RevTalk to pilot a truly
innovative collaborative community, not just based around code, but also
open media content as well. While the Revolution engine is not open, the
accessibility of the language, the free version of the IDE in RevMedia, and
it's ability to appeal to designers and non-developers interested in media,
place it in a strong position to serve as a foundation for a rich "open
content" community.

I'm hopeful that other developers will share these goals, and that we can
work together to support the wider adoption of the language and the creation
of higher quality open code and media resources for the community.

If there is anyone who would like to discuss the funding proposals, or join
either as a full legal partner, or as an informal associate partner maybe we
can start a discussion off list? From previous experience I'd say that this
list is best kept to discussions regarding code, and the use of Revolution -
I'm breaking this rule here just as a heads-up and invitation to those
interested in this area to help co-design this initiative :)
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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Richmond Mathewson]

David Bovill wrote:

It is perfectly acceptible to release RevTalk code under the terms of the
GPL, MIT or other licenses. This has been done before, and debated
extensively over the years in other related platforms - even where the
engine itself is closed.

Purists, like to argue over the issue, and debates can get heated (and
usually tedious). My personal point of view is that there is precedence here
and a number of thriving communities have grown up by using open source and
open content licenses in similar circumstances. As that is the purpose, I'll
go with what works and is helpful with regard to community building, and
stick to arguing the philosophy down the pub (which is a much more enjoyable
place for those sort of debates).

Building a practical and truely collaborative open source community around
RevTalk is certainly helped if the "mothership" takes a clear and
encouraging stance on these issues. I have long argued on this list and
elsewhere that RunRev should adopt an explicit "open source strategy" to
encourage proper collaboration between developers on a clear and firm legal
basis. This does not mean open sourcing their engine, but it does mean
taking the small steps needed to support and encourage community efforts in
this area. Releasing the documentation under an open content (Creative
Commons) license would be symbolic and help. Explicitly releasing the code
in the IDE under an MIT or other open source license, and encouraging
integration with other similarly licensed IDEs (like MC IDE) would also
help.

As far as I can gather from talking to Kevin, Mark and the other folks at
RunRev - they have nothing against these moves which I found encouraging. As
far as I can tell it is simply that none of the developers there have
experience of working on open source projects, and the use of open licenses,
and as such they are not quite sure as to how they would support / engage
with such and effort given their limited resources.

I proposed to Kevin and a number of developers at RunRev Live, that maybe we
can move this area forwards by creating a community led project with an
explicit remit to develop open source code libraries and widgets in RevTalk.
This would be an arms length legal entity, with RunRev or any other
interested party able to join as a full member and have a say with regard to
the projects direction.

Based on the positive feedback to these ideas from the conference, I've
decided to put what time I have into taking this forwards with the aim of
launching it in time for the RunRev November launch. 

Sorry, but, frankly, the only thing that excited me about your message was

"November launch";  it is funny how information is leaked out to the 
proletariat . . .  :)

The organisation would
be not-for-profit, in that any money derived from activities such as
commercial closed source dual licensing of code libraries would go back into
the pool to pay developers to work on open source libraries. I've discussed
this proposal with a number of funders here in the UK and it seems
encouraging to apply for some grants to develop this community as well.

Any individual developer or company is fully entitled to join, and the
organisation will have an open membership. The aim is simple to define
collectively what tools and resources the community would like to develop as
open source code and resource these efforts. The secondary aim is to engage
with other open source and open content communities, building on the
strengths and accessibility of the language to be immediately understandable
to any programmer, and encourage interoperability between RevTalk and other
open source frameworks.

My personal interest in the project is in the legal and community side, and
I want to combine this with my passion for RevTalk to pilot a truly
innovative collaborative community, not just based around code, but also
open media content as well. While the Revolution engine is not open, the
accessibility of the language, the free version of the IDE in RevMedia, and
it's ability to appeal to designers and non-developers interested in media,
place it in a strong position to serve as a foundation for a rich "open
content" community.

I'm hopeful that other developers will share these goals, and that we can
work together to support the wider adoption of the language and the creation
of higher quality open code and media resources for the community.

If there is anyone who would like to discuss the funding proposals, or join
either as a full legal partner, or as an informal associate partner maybe we
can start a discussion off list? From previous experience I'd say that this
list is best kept to discussions regarding code, and the use of Revolution -
I'm breaking this rule here just as a heads-up and invitation to those
interested in this area to help co-design this initiative :)
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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Fredrik Andersson]

Sorry, but, frankly, the only thing that excited me about your  
message was


"November launch";  it is funny how information is leaked out to the  
proletariat . . .  :)




http://www.runrev.com/newsletter/october/issue80/

:)
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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Richmond Mathewson]

Fredrik Andersson wrote:





Sorry, but, frankly, the only thing that excited me about your 
message was


"November launch";  it is funny how information is leaked out to the 
proletariat . . .  :)




http://www.runrev.com/newsletter/october/issue80/

:)


Humpf: living in Bulgaria affects one's brain a-n-d t-h-i-n-g-s s-l-o-w 
d-o-w-n.  ...  :)

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Re: Calling all open source developers

[David Bovill]

2009/10/20 Richmond Mathewson 

> Fredrik Andersson wrote:
>
>>
>> Sorry, but, frankly, the only thing that excited me about your message was
>>>
>>> "November launch";  it is funny how information is leaked out to the
>>> proletariat . . .  :)
>>>


>> http://www.runrev.com/newsletter/october/issue80/
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>>  Humpf: living in Bulgaria affects one's brain a-n-d t-h-i-n-g-s s-l-o-w
> d-o-w-n.  ...  :)


You clearly need more excitement - not sure I can supply it though :)
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Re: [On-Rev] Email masking

[Francis Nugent Dixon]

Hi from Paris,

Try : http://www.aspirine.org/emailcode_en.html

-Francis

"Nothing should ever be done for the first time !"


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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Richard Gaskin]

Peter Alcibiades wrote:

> Open source is not about what it runs on.  The main point of
> open source is that the source code shall be available, and
> modification of it shall be permitted as long as those
> modifications are also put back.  Its the modification issue
> that matters here, the practical effect on the ability to
> modify of the use of a proprietary language and IDE.

No code is an island.

Every line of code written in any language is dependent on many other
components.  In the Win and OS X worlds, where many good FOSS projects 
live, most of those components are not open source.


All FOSS software written for OS X and Windows fails the same purity
test which would reject Rev, as do interactions with most third-party
drivers like those from ATI, Nvidia, HP, etc.

Moreover, even GNU Linux itself fails this purity test by relying on
proprietary BIOS and using a proprietary chip instruction set.

Here's how the presumably "approved" and "not approved" models stack up 
for the Rev world:



   "Purist-approved" FOSS model on OS X and Win:

   -
   |Your Scripts   |
   -
   |   Rev Libraries   |
   -
   | Rev Engine|  modifiable
   - ---
   |  Display Drivers  |   not modifiable
   -
   |   Print Drivers   |
   -
   |  Operating System |
   -
   |BIOS   |
   -
   | Processor |
   -


   "Purist-disapproved" FOSS model on OS X and Win:

   -
   |Your Scripts   |
   -
   |   Rev Libraries   |  modifiable
   - ---
   | Rev Engine|   not modifiable
   -
   |  Display Drivers  |
   -
   |   Print Drivers   |
   -
   |  Operating System |
   -
   |BIOS   |
   -
   | Processor |
   -


Not a huge difference by any measure.

If we measure this in lines of source, the difference between the top 
and bottom for Mac and Win FOSS projects might be around 2%.


If we were to characterize contributions to a program by frequency of 
executed call, even GNU Linux might find itself dependent on proprietary
code most of the time, since nearly everything it does is compiled to 
native machine code using the proprietary Intel instruction set.



> ...
> Look, here is a practical example.  There are quite a few things
> in Rev for Linux that are just broken.  Printing for instance.
> Suppose I write and distribute an app under the GPL.  Done in
> Python, someone who is really irritated with this can modify Python
> itself, then fix the app.  It may be unlikely, but this possibility,
> and the power of forking Python, is part of what makes OSS developers
> responsive.  Done in Rev, the same person basically has no recourse
> except to wait, as I am waiting patiently, for 4.0.

Both Windows and OS X ship with thousands of known bugs which cannot be 
addressed by the user.  How does the principle that exempts them not 
also apply to systems like Rev?



> If Edinburgh falls victim to a giant tsunami down the Firth of Forth
> then, like KDE with Trolltech, the powers of the GPL license holder
> to my app are in practice very limited.  There is a real point here.

An important point indeed, but it's not specific to FOSS projects. That 
would affect everyone, even (if not especially) developers of 
proprietary commercial products.


When the engine was maintained by MetaCard Corp. there was the option of 
a code escrow.  Very few licensees took advantage of that as it was, as 
you can imagine, quite expense.  But the availability of such an option 
put a lot of minds at rest.


Does anyone here know if RunRev Ltd. offers a code escrow option?

Perhaps Kevin could chime in here and discuss options for the code base 
in a SHTF scenario.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv



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Re: Datagrid: multiple hilites

[Trevor DeVore]

On Oct 17, 2009, at 7:02 PM, David Bovill wrote:

I checked again Trevor. It makes sense that it does not work in  
cases where
the controls are not cached - where it is broken is when the  
controls are

cached but you try to get:

the dgRectOfIndex [1] of dataGrid

and the controls are scrolled heavily, so that the invisible row  
view would
be above the top of the card. In these cases it does not return the  
correct
geometry as the invisible row view is limited to the top of the  
screen and
no its "true" negative y values. These means that if you try to  
scroll to

the first row it does not work.


I just performed the following test and the dgRectOfIndex[1] returned  
the proper result.


1) Created new Data Grid.
2) Changed style to "form"
3) Turned off fixed row height
4) Turned on "cache controls"
5) Turned off "persistent data"
6) Positioned Data Grid at 0,0

I then added about 50 or so lines to the Data Grid. Here are results:

put the dgRectOfIndex[1] of group 1
0,0,233,21

I then scrolled to the bottom of the Data Grid:

put the dgRectOfIndex[1] of group 1
0,-451,233,-430

I then tried scrolling the first index back into view and it worked:

dispatch "ScrollRectIntoView" to group 1 with the dgRectOfIndex[1] of  
group 1


Just let me know what steps you are taking and what you are seeing. If  
there is a bug that is the only way I can track it down.


--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Learning Systems
ScreenSteps: http://www.screensteps.com
Releasable Revolution Resources for Developers: 
http://revolution.bluemangolearning.com
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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Björnke von Gierke]

I still am interested, same as when we talked about similar stuff in  
the pubs of edinburgh.


What exactly do you propose, do you need a url/host (i have a host,  
but no url, i do know people that have rev-community related urls who  
would share them if there's "real and helpful content").


What is there to discuss anyway? Chapter? Legal place of residence?  
Just go ahead and the ass(es like me) will follow?


I would like to have a place with three or four licenses described in  
layman terms, which are applicable to the rev ecosystem. Not sure if  
this even fits the bill for your idea, but having a "oss and rev"  
dedicated site would be nice in my oppinion.


Have fun
Björnke

On 20 Oct 2009, at 10:52, David Bovill wrote:

If there is anyone who would like to discuss the funding proposals,  
or join
either as a full legal partner, or as an informal associate partner  
maybe we
can start a discussion off list? From previous experience I'd say  
that this
list is best kept to discussions regarding code, and the use of  
Revolution -

I'm breaking this rule here just as a heads-up and invitation to those
interested in this area to help co-design this initiative :)


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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Andre Garzia]

BvG,
I am not a license expert, I've studied them in brief. So take this email
more like a personal opinion than a factual report. I know you'd prefer a
factual thing but I am in no position to give it to you. David has more info
on this I bet.

GPL - if it touches it then it needs to be FOSS. It is a viral license since
everything that touches it must also be GPL, by touch understand link, if it
links (in the compiler sense) then it needs to be GPL, so I don't think it
is a good license for Revolution since I don't know how the interaction of
the standalone builder using closed technology conflicts with the link part.

BSD - my favorite license, it is free for you to do whatever you want and
thats all, sell it, distribute it, change it, we don't care.

LGPL - a less fanatic GPL, allows linking, can't tell much about it.

MIT/X11 - I think it is like the BSD license right?

CC - many people use creative commons these for software. I've only used it
for text, but it might work.

We can always use some (free) lawyer advise...

2009/10/20 Björnke von Gierke 

> I still am interested, same as when we talked about similar stuff in the
> pubs of edinburgh.
>
> What exactly do you propose, do you need a url/host (i have a host, but no
> url, i do know people that have rev-community related urls who would share
> them if there's "real and helpful content").
>
> What is there to discuss anyway? Chapter? Legal place of residence? Just go
> ahead and the ass(es like me) will follow?
>
> I would like to have a place with three or four licenses described in
> layman terms, which are applicable to the rev ecosystem. Not sure if this
> even fits the bill for your idea, but having a "oss and rev" dedicated site
> would be nice in my oppinion.
>
> Have fun
> Björnke
>
>
> On 20 Oct 2009, at 10:52, David Bovill wrote:
>
>  If there is anyone who would like to discuss the funding proposals, or
>> join
>> either as a full legal partner, or as an informal associate partner maybe
>> we
>> can start a discussion off list? From previous experience I'd say that
>> this
>> list is best kept to discussions regarding code, and the use of Revolution
>> -
>> I'm breaking this rule here just as a heads-up and invitation to those
>> interested in this area to help co-design this initiative :)
>>
>
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-- 
http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code.
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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Thierry]

Le 20 oct. 09 à 16:14, Richard Gaskin a écrit :



No code is an island.

Every line of code written in any language is dependent on many other
components.  In the Win and OS X worlds, where many good FOSS  
projects live, most of those components are not open source.



But definitely not talking of Linux distros...

That's may be one of the main point with those communities ;
to avoid the scheme you have shown ; a good one by the way.

Bring back to me some memories...
I humbly suggest to read this free ebook available here :

http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/about

Could give some ideas before starting any project
with some chance of success.

All the best
Thierry

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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Thierry]

LGPL - a less  GPL, .



May be this will give some ideas ?

Copied from http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=148162


Once and for all, Perl is distributed under both the GPL AND the  
Artistic license. The goal, explicitely stated by Larry, of this  
double licensing is to make everybody happy: suits can use the  
Artistic License (which he describes as an antidote to the GPL) so  
they can use it in commercial software, and rabid GNU zealots see  
their beloved GPL being used.


The goal (once again explicitely stated by Larry) is not to have a  
legally sound scheme, it is to quiet down both sides of the Open- 
Source vs Free Software debate, plus commercial software producers.  
In fact it is designed precisely to avoid that kind of GPL/LGPL nit- 
picking.


See this interview(1) for Larry's description of this hack, and a  
legal analysis of the Artistic License in "Essay on the Artistic  
License"(2)




(1) interview:  http://lwn.net/2001/features/LarryWall/

(2) Artistic license : http://www.theoretic.com/licenses/oal.html



And if you read the comments about artistic license, then, it starts  
to be real fun, or not :-)




Regards,

Thierry




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Float above everything and deployment of Stand alone

[tareq_tawaiha]

Thanks Sara and Mark between disabling the title and setting the screen to
screenrect it worked. I also wanted to add the ability to float above
everything. (This option is in the inspector of the stack) , but if i select
that checkbox and then go to file> Save as Stand Alone , the saving menu is
located BEHIND the stack so i cant select the location ?

Any thoughts ?






Sarah Reichelt-2 wrote:
> 
> "Turn off the titlebar of the window. They can't drag if there is no
> titlebar to grab.
> You can do this be changing the decorations in the Inspector.
> 
> Cheers,
> Sarah"
> 
> 
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 8:24 AM, tareq_tawaiha 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I have attached 2 pictures of my screen, the first image is a picture of
>> how
>> the stack looks when it is open 
>>
>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p25933246/Picture%2B1.png    the
>> second is how it looks on my desktop after dragging it using my mouse.
>>  > \>  http://www.nabble.com/file/p25933246/Picture%2B2.jpeg  > \>> \> notice where my cursor is in the 3rd image , i am able to change the
>> location of the stack. I want to disable that so the user is not able to
>> move it around on the screen.  Does that clarify the question ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Schonewille-3 wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi tareq_tawaiha,
>>>
>>> If I run your script, I get a stack window that can't be moved around
>>> and there's nothing else left that can be moved around, except for
>>> palettes.
>>>
>>> Do you mean that your script doesn't work for you? Can you explain more?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Mark Schonewille
>>>
>>> Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
>>> http://economy-x-talk.com
>>>
>>> Submit your software at http://www.quickestpublisher.com
>>>
>>> On 16 okt 2009, at 23:55, tareq_tawaiha wrote:
>>>


 Hello

 I have been looking at the documentation and not able to find a way
 to lock
 the location of the stack on a screen in a Stand Alone. I am
 creating an
 educational piece and i need the students to not be able to move the
 Stand
 Alone.

 I set the stack to fullscreen

 on preOpenStack
   set the fullscreen of stack "writing" to true

 end preOpenStack

 After the stack opens i want to disable the user's ability to move the
 program around on the screen by clicking and dragging it. In other
 words i
 want it to stay at full screen to force the users to go through the
 activity
 on the card.

 Any suggestions ?
 --
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Re: Datagrid: multiple hilites

[David Bovill]

Whoa!

So sorry. I really checked this very thoroughly or so I thought. I turns out
not to a datagrid issue, but mine - or should that be a Rev bug??? Goes like
this:

I was relying on a handler I've had for decades
"rect_CreateTransparentButton" which does what is say on the tin, creates a
semi-transparent button at the rect you specify, so you can see the area -
one click an it is gone. OK - but :)

set the rect of transparentButton to someRect
> show transparentButton
>

that's it! That's the problem ??? The script creates the button with "create
invisible button someName", does some stuff, sets the rect and shows the
button - so? Well setting the rect of an invisible object off screen does
not work?!? It gets limited to the screen rect.

OK - it's old code and it would be better to set the templatebutton and then
reset it - but still I can feel good about myself and waisting Trevors time
right? This is surely a Rev bug :)

2009/10/20 Trevor DeVore 

> On Oct 17, 2009, at 7:02 PM, David Bovill wrote:
>
>  I checked again Trevor. It makes sense that it does not work in cases
>> where
>> the controls are not cached - where it is broken is when the controls are
>> cached but you try to get:
>>
>> the dgRectOfIndex [1] of dataGrid
>>
>> and the controls are scrolled heavily, so that the invisible row view
>> would
>> be above the top of the card. In these cases it does not return the
>> correct
>> geometry as the invisible row view is limited to the top of the screen and
>> no its "true" negative y values. These means that if you try to scroll to
>> the first row it does not work.
>>
>
> I just performed the following test and the dgRectOfIndex[1] returned the
> proper result.
>
> 1) Created new Data Grid.
> 2) Changed style to "form"
> 3) Turned off fixed row height
> 4) Turned on "cache controls"
> 5) Turned off "persistent data"
> 6) Positioned Data Grid at 0,0
>
> I then added about 50 or so lines to the Data Grid. Here are results:
>
> put the dgRectOfIndex[1] of group 1
> 0,0,233,21
>
> I then scrolled to the bottom of the Data Grid:
>
> put the dgRectOfIndex[1] of group 1
> 0,-451,233,-430
>
> I then tried scrolling the first index back into view and it worked:
>
> dispatch "ScrollRectIntoView" to group 1 with the dgRectOfIndex[1] of group
> 1
>
> Just let me know what steps you are taking and what you are seeing. If
> there is a bug that is the only way I can track it down.
>
>
> --
> Trevor DeVore
> Blue Mango Learning Systems
> ScreenSteps: http://www.screensteps.com
> Releasable Revolution Resources for Developers:
> http://revolution.bluemangolearning.com
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Re: Datagrid: multiple hilites

[Trevor DeVore]

On Oct 20, 2009, at 1:18 PM, David Bovill wrote:


Whoa!

So sorry. I really checked this very thoroughly or so I thought. I  
turns out
not to a datagrid issue, but mine - or should that be a Rev bug???  
Goes like

this:

I was relying on a handler I've had for decades
"rect_CreateTransparentButton" which does what is say on the tin,  
creates a
semi-transparent button at the rect you specify, so you can see the  
area -

one click an it is gone. OK - but :)

set the rect of transparentButton to someRect

show transparentButton



that's it! That's the problem ??? The script creates the button with  
"create
invisible button someName", does some stuff, sets the rect and shows  
the
button - so? Well setting the rect of an invisible object off screen  
does

not work?!? It gets limited to the screen rect.

OK - it's old code and it would be better to set the templatebutton  
and then
reset it - but still I can feel good about myself and waisting  
Trevors time

right? This is surely a Rev bug :)


No worries. It was a simple enough test to run and I found and fixed  
an unrelated bug while doing it :-)


--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Learning Systems
ScreenSteps: http://www.screensteps.com
Releasable Revolution Resources for Developers: 
http://revolution.bluemangolearning.com
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Re: Calling all open source developers

[David Bovill]

2009/10/20 Andre Garzia 

>
> GPL - if it touches it then it needs to be FOSS. It is a viral license
> since
> everything that touches it must also be GPL, by touch understand link, if
> it
> links (in the compiler sense) then it needs to be GPL, so I don't think it
> is a good license for Revolution since I don't know how the interaction of
> the standalone builder using closed technology conflicts with the link
> part.
>
> BSD - my favorite license, it is free for you to do whatever you want and
> thats all, sell it, distribute it, change it, we don't care.
>
> LGPL - a less fanatic GPL, allows linking, can't tell much about it.
>
> MIT/X11 - I think it is like the BSD license right?
>
> CC - many people use creative commons these for software. I've only used it
> for text, but it might work.
>
> We can always use some (free) lawyer advise...
>

Creative Commons (CC) is not advised for code as it was not designed for it
legally speaking. Some people use it (mainly as there is no FOSS license I
know of which says "non-commercial"), but it's not advised.

Like most people I'm a fan of BSD/MIT/X11 licenses, and will use them. But
for this project I'm going to go for something more fun, which needs the GPL
and dual licensing for people who want to include closed code in their
applications. So like Björnke suggests there will be a variety of licenses
available for people to use.

The community will be constituted in a minimal and flexible way - it will be
registered in the UK, possibly in Scotland for various reasons. Any
developer can join from any country, by signing and posting in a pdf,
everyone will be protected by limited liability, and partners are equal.
There will be a mechanism in place for people who simply want to join but
not be a full legal partner to be represented in any decision making. The
organisation is needed for the funding applications that I'll be putting in,
and I'll be taking the legal responsibility to file accounts annually, as I
do for a number of other organisations. So no worries there.

2009/10/20 Björnke von Gierke 

>
> What exactly do you propose, do you need a url/host (i have a host, but no
> url, i do know people that have rev-community related urls who would share
> them if there's "real and helpful content").
>

I've got the hosting space, and a domain to use "www.rev-co.de", but would
be more than happy to use / work with another domain as long as it was owned
by the community and not an individual or company. I've had the web site up
and taken it down, as frankly it is not important for developers who need
the stuff directly in the Rev IDE - it is an unecessary extra step to have
to go check a web site.

The web site is more for promotional reasons for RunRev, and it can
certainly be got back up - all the code is there to allow direct downloads
and uploads from the IDE to the site. It's not a hacky site I put together,
but based on Trac - so it is minimal and looks good. I've just added the
code for integrating the wiki and repository (svn) into the IDE.

I've done test and written code to export all the Rev documentation to the
site and integrate it, but took it down as there is no explicit license for
this provided by RunRev. I've suggested that RunRev license the docs
themselves under a Creative Commons license - perhaps non-commerical +
attribution, and if they do this I'll upload the text and images to the
site.

Anyway there you go - all the exciting bits (just for Richmond :) And thanks
for all of you that emailed me off list!
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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Richard Gaskin]

David Bovill wrote:

Creative Commons (CC) is not advised for code as it was not designed for it
legally speaking. Some people use it (mainly as there is no FOSS license I
know of which says "non-commercial"), but it's not advised.


One of the things I like about some forms of the CC license (of which 
there are a confusing dozen or so configurations ) is the "share 
alike" option, which renders works free of license fees only when used 
in works which are also free of license fees.


This raises a question I've had for some time:  how does one go about 
implementing something like the dual licensing of MySQL?


I don't know many other projects which even attempt dual licensing, but 
for some of my projects I like the idea of maintaining a revenue stream 
from the product while also giving it away.


One of the downsides to relying solely on services as the revenue source 
from software is that it disincentivizes good design: if a product is 
sufficiently complete and easy to use it requires no consulting.


Without users covering the costs of development through license fees, 
FOSS projects are limited to:


a) projects sufficiently trivial that they don't require much time
   from the programmer.

b) big projects which are complex enough to require supplemental
   services.

c) some strategic value to an outside funder to make it worth their
   while to pay for it.

d) programmers who've been successful enough with paying work that
   they can finally enjoy being able to work for free.


How viable is a dual license scheme if one hopes to derive revenue from 
licensees?  And how exactly does one go about it?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Björnke von Gierke]

so...

 what do you propose, or need, if it's not a webspace? that was my  
question.


I also suggested that one could make a helpful page about licenses,  
but it seems it was worded badly and taken as me needing help about  
what a license is...





--

official ChatRev page:
http://bjoernke.com?target=chatrev

Chat with other RunRev developers:
go stack URL "http://bjoernke.com/chatrev/chatrev1.3b3.rev";

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Re: Calling all open source developers

[David Bovill]

2009/10/20 Richard Gaskin 

>
> How viable is a dual license scheme if one hopes to derive revenue from
> licensees?  And how exactly does one go about it?
>

That's exactly what I've proposed Richard! It's fairly straight forwards,
I've checked it with the FOSS people in Europe, but have a few twists to
make it work a little simpler and more flexibly. Simply put the GPL license
a sused on an interpreted language virally affects the openness of the
script, and does not have implications for the engine. What this means in
practice is that GPL licensed Rev code can be used freely by anyone, but not
compiled into a protected stack. As such all RevTalk scripts distributed as
part of an app should be made publicly available, including any libraries or
code supplied by the developer - this encourages the feedback to the
community.

However, a developer wishing to have full access to the code and to release
protected applications, can do so by taking out a commercial (dual license).
The business model I am proposing, is that the collectively owned
organisation would license this code for an annual fee entitling access to
all the communities code in closed commericial applications. This money woud
go into a central bank account, and be redistributed to developers working
on open source project deemed to be of importance to the community.

It is important that this is a legal entity, not just for fund raising
issues, but also for licensing reasons. In order to release all code dual
licensed it helps if there is one copyright holder, and this copyright
holder should be collectively owned and empowered to create commercial
licenses to the benefit of the community. The Parnership structure I am
proposing protects this as it is based on Partnership law of one partner one
vote, and allows informal agreements (such as those signed off on the web
site) to be taken into account by the judge - thus offering a more flexible
and lower cost option as compared to traditional contract based licensing.

Happy now Richmond :)
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Re: Music ????

[Judy Perry]

Indeed, I have a stack with an onscreen keyboard for when Ms. Betancourt's 
external worked...


Judy

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Thierry wrote:


Hi Sir,

You already can do that in Rev with MaestroJunior.

Use the Maestro_Header() function and then play any note
with Maestro( aNote ).

Drawing an animated picture of a keyboard is not that difficult.
Associating every  key with a note and roughly you have it.

As MaestroJunior is still in Beta, you'll get a little latence before
playing the note, but as I have seen, there is also one with tilestack.


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Re: Calling all open source developers

[David Bovill]

2009/10/20 Björnke von Gierke 

>
>  what do you propose, or need, if it's not a webspace? that was my
> question.
>

At this stage - its just about saying you want in, the more people
interested, the more reason for RunRev to view it worth while taking the
energy to explicitly license their documentation and IDE code in a way in
which we can remix it as a community effort. Once they do that it would be
worth getting the site up, and then adding documentation.

For now - how about just working on code? The Jabber library we talked about
seems a good start. Alex Tweedly has expressed interest on working on it off
list, and I know that Malte was interested? I'd like to see it integrated
with ChatRev with ChatRev used for LAN based chat, and Jabber used for
robust multiplayer publish and subscribe.

Longer term this I'd like to see what can be done with Google Wave and Rev -
as Jabber is the foundation of the Google Wave open protocol, and I've
always seen Jabber as the strongest technical basis for collaborative
environments.

And as your Mr ChatRev... :)
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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Björnke von Gierke]

hello mr oss

oh, now i get it, i want to be a partner then. you said you'd send me  
some existing jabber code, what has become of that?


mr chatrev

On 20 Oct 2009, at 21:00, David Bovill wrote:


The Parnership structure I am
proposing protects this as it is based on Partnership law of one  
partner one
vote, and allows informal agreements (such as those signed off on  
the web
site) to be taken into account by the judge - thus offering a more  
flexible
and lower cost option as compared to traditional contract based  
licensing.


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Re: Calling all open source developers

[David Bovill]

I'll dig it out and send it :) Maybe I'll even talk you into using GIT :)

2009/10/20 Björnke von Gierke 

> hello mr oss
>
> oh, now i get it, i want to be a partner then. you said you'd send me some
> existing jabber code, what has become of that?
>
> mr chatrev
>
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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Andre Garzia]

I use HG and I like it... I've used GIT as well.

On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 5:30 PM, David Bovill wrote:

> I'll dig it out and send it :) Maybe I'll even talk you into using GIT :)
>
> 2009/10/20 Björnke von Gierke 
>
> > hello mr oss
> >
> > oh, now i get it, i want to be a partner then. you said you'd send me
> some
> > existing jabber code, what has become of that?
> >
> > mr chatrev
> >
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-- 
http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code.
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Re: Music ????

[Thierry]

Le 20 oct. 09 à 21:07, Judy Perry a écrit :


Indeed, I have a stack with an onscreen keyboard
for when Ms. Betancourt's external worked...

Judy


Hello Judy,

a pointer to this stack ? sharable ?
Thanks,

Thierry


On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Thierry wrote:


Hi Sir,

You already can do that in Rev with MaestroJunior.

Use the Maestro_Header() function and then play any note
with Maestro( aNote ).




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Re: Music ????

[J. Landman Gay]

Thierry wrote:


Le 20 oct. 09 à 21:07, Judy Perry a écrit :


Indeed, I have a stack with an onscreen keyboard
for when Ms. Betancourt's external worked...

Judy


Hello Judy,

a pointer to this stack ? sharable ?


. I host the stack 
on my site but haven't really used it much. I didn't know it no longer 
works. Judy, what broke?


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Post - error socket is not open

[Ray Horsley]

Some of our users are intermittently getting this error "error socket  
is not open" in the result when posting an http request to a web  
server.  I'm unable to repeat it.  The standalone is not in the  
startup process and I'm sure the internet library was included in the  
build.  Any ideas on why or how to test for this?


Thanks,

Ray Horsley
LinkIt! Software

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Re: Post - error socket is not open

[Dave Cragg]

Hi Ray

There is an outstanding bug report about cases where socket closing  
doesn't seem to be handled properly.


http://quality.runrev.com/qacenter/show_bug.cgi?id=2955

I don't know if this is the same. But you could try adding a  
"Connection: close" http header.


  set the httpHeaders to "Connection: close"

Or if you already have httpHeaders set:

 set the httpHeaders to the httpHeaders & cr & "Connection: close"

Dave

On 20 Oct 2009, at 23:53, Ray Horsley wrote:

Some of our users are intermittently getting this error "error  
socket is not open" in the result when posting an http request to a  
web server.  I'm unable to repeat it.  The standalone is not in the  
startup process and I'm sure the internet library was included in  
the build.  Any ideas on why or how to test for this?


Thanks,

Ray Horsley
LinkIt! Software

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Re: Music ????

[Thierry]

Le 20 oct. 09 à 21:53, J. Landman Gay a écrit :


Thierry wrote:

Le 20 oct. 09 à 21:07, Judy Perry a écrit :

Indeed, I have a stack with an onscreen keyboard
for when Ms. Betancourt's external worked...

Judy

Hello Judy,
a pointer to this stack ? sharable ?


.


Thanks Jacqueline,
but I was looking for the stack with a keyboard.
Just not to do it myself, and be able to do a quick demo...

Regards,
Thierry

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Re: Post - error socket is not open

[Pierre Sahores]

Hi Ray

In supposing that you are running a rev standalone as an application's  
server (not as on-rev / irev paradigm solutions does), you will  
probably get some usable informations in this tutorial i wrote years  
ago. The purposed contains was more usefull at that time as it is  
today : the new irev runrev web technology is definitivelly lots more  
reliable.




Best Regards,

Pierre



Le 21 oct. 09 à 00:53, Ray Horsley a écrit :

Some of our users are intermittently getting this error "error  
socket is not open" in the result when posting an http request to a  
web server.  I'm unable to repeat it.  The standalone is not in the  
startup process and I'm sure the internet library was included in  
the build.  Any ideas on why or how to test for this?


Thanks,

Ray Horsley
LinkIt! Software

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--
Pierre Sahores
mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70

www.wrds.com
www.sahores-conseil.com






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Re: Float above everything and deployment of Stand alone

[Sarah Reichelt]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 3:05 AM, tareq_tawaiha  wrote:
>
> Thanks Sara and Mark between disabling the title and setting the screen to
> screenrect it worked. I also wanted to add the ability to float above
> everything. (This option is in the inspector of the stack) , but if i select
> that checkbox and then go to file> Save as Stand Alone , the saving menu is
> located BEHIND the stack so i cant select the location ?


Well, the easiest way is probably to press Return and let it build in
the default folder, then find it later :-)
If you want more control, then turn off the systemWindow property
before building and have it turned on again in a preOpenStack handler.

Cheers,
Sarah
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Re: Music ????

[Judy Perry]

Thierry,

I just emailed you the stack.

Jacquie,

I don't know why I thought that it was broken but indeed it is not! Which 
means that my stack should still work :-)


Judy
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repeat or send - what takes less cpu time?

[runrev260805]

Hi,

i have to create a little app, which stays in the taskbar and connects every 5 
minutes to a website to check, if a specific file is online. If this file is 
not found the program waits 5 minutes before it checks again for the file. What 
takes less cpu time? A repeat loop or should i better use "send"


Regards,

Matthias


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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Richard Gaskin]

David Bovill wrote:


2009/10/20 Richard Gaskin 

How viable is a dual license scheme if one hopes to derive revenue from
licensees?  And how exactly does one go about it?


That's exactly what I've proposed Richard! It's fairly straight forwards,
I've checked it with the FOSS people in Europe, but have a few twists to
make it work a little simpler and more flexibly. Simply put the GPL license
a sused on an interpreted language virally affects the openness of the
script, and does not have implications for the engine. What this means in
practice is that GPL licensed Rev code can be used freely by anyone, but not
compiled into a protected stack. As such all RevTalk scripts distributed as
part of an app should be made publicly available, including any libraries or
code supplied by the developer - this encourages the feedback to the
community.

However, a developer wishing to have full access to the code and to release
protected applications, can do so by taking out a commercial (dual license).
The business model I am proposing, is that the collectively owned
organisation would license this code for an annual fee entitling access to
all the communities code in closed commericial applications. This money woud
go into a central bank account, and be redistributed to developers working
on open source project deemed to be of importance to the community.

It is important that this is a legal entity, not just for fund raising
issues, but also for licensing reasons. In order to release all code dual
licensed it helps if there is one copyright holder, and this copyright
holder should be collectively owned and empowered to create commercial
licenses to the benefit of the community. The Parnership structure I am
proposing protects this as it is based on Partnership law of one partner one
vote, and allows informal agreements (such as those signed off on the web
site) to be taken into account by the judge - thus offering a more flexible
and lower cost option as compared to traditional contract based licensing.


Great stuff, David.  More than just a grand vision, it appears well 
thought out on many levels.


One thing I don't understand with GPL'd code, though:

What if rather than contributing, someone wanted to drive traffic to 
their own site by forking the project and enhancing a new version of it?


Are there any ways to ensure that a common pool doesn't get fragmented 
like that?



Also: Would a Rev stack need to use LGPL to maintain a clear distinction 
from the engine, or is GPL sufficiently clear on that?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: Can you disable the user from dragging a stack in a stand alone ?

[tareq_tawaiha]

Hello Mark, 

yes, now i use "set the rect of stack "writing" to the screenrect", since i
need it to work the same on any screen size. that is good. but i also set
the " float above everything " option on the stack inspector , and now i
cant save it as stand alone, because the save window stays behind my card. 




Mark Schonewille-3 wrote:
> 
> Hi Tareq,
> 
> How big is your screen? Have you set the maxheight and maxwidth of  
> your stack to too small a number perhaps?
> 
> You could try
> 
> set the rect of stack "writing" to the screenrect
> 
> instead of
> 
> set the fullscreen of stack "writing" to true
> 
> --
> Best regards,
> 
> Mark Schonewille
> 
> Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
> http://economy-x-talk.com
> 
> Submit your software at http://www.quickestpublisher.com
> 
> On 17 okt 2009, at 00:24, tareq_tawaiha wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> I have attached 2 pictures of my screen, the first image is a  
>> picture of how
>> the stack looks when it is open 
>>
>> http://www.nabble.com/file/p25933246/Picture%2B1.png 
>> the
>> second is how it looks on my desktop after dragging it using my  
>> mouse.  > \>  http://www.nabble.com/file/p25933246/Picture%2B2.jpeg  > \>> \> notice where my cursor is in the 3rd image , i am able to change  
>> the
>> location of the stack. I want to disable that so the user is not  
>> able to
>> move it around on the screen.  Does that clarify the question ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
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> subscription preferences:
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> 

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Re: repeat or send - what takes less cpu time?

[Sarah Reichelt]

> i have to create a little app, which stays in the taskbar and connects every 
> 5 minutes to a website to check, if a specific file is online. If this file 
> is not found the program waits 5 minutes before it checks again for the file. 
> What takes less cpu time? A repeat loop or should i better use "send"

I recommend using "send". That way the app is resting and not using
any CPU during it's 5 minutes.

Cheers,
Sarah
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[OT]Grace Hopper

[Mark Smith]

There's a nice article about Grace Hopper here:
http://www.i-programmer.info/history/8-people/294-the-mother-of- 
cobol.html


It shows an example of the verbose language for her B-0 compiler:

The language was targeted at business use and Hopper even felt that  
arithmetic expressions were too complicated for the average user and  
introduced a very wordy language - for example


Add One To Total
rather than
Total=Total+1

Strangely familiar
Best,

Mark Smith
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Re-2: repeat or send - what takes less cpu time?

[runrev260805]

Sarah,

thanks for your answer. The app is still reacting to other things like 
keystrokes or button clicks?

Matthias



 Original Message 
Subject: Re: repeat or send - what takes less cpu time? (21-Okt-2009 0:08)
From:Sarah Reichelt 
To:  runrev260...@m-r-d.de

> > i have to create a little app, which stays in the taskbar and connects 
> > every 5 minutes to a website to check, if a specific file is online. If 
> > this file is not found the program waits 5 minutes before it checks again 
> > for the file. What takes less cpu time? A repeat loop or should i better 
> > use "send"
> 
> I recommend using "send". That way the app is resting and not using
> any CPU during it's 5 minutes.
> 
> Cheers,
> Sarah
> ___
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> use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
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> 
> 
> 
> To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com


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Re: Calling all open source developers

[Björnke von Gierke]

On 20 Oct 2009, at 23:34, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Are there any ways to ensure that a common pool doesn't get  
fragmented like that?


no.

its _intended_ to be fragmented. And then it's the market's  
(community's) job to favour that one (or more) solution which is best.  
Up to now, it works out long term. However, it sucks to have dozens of  
non-functional x-window environments (that was back in '98 or so).  
With functional i mean "usable by installing it and then not needing  
to fiddle in the terminal for hours".


Also: Would a Rev stack need to use LGPL to maintain a clear  
distinction from the engine, or is GPL sufficiently clear on that?


As most legal questions, the answer to that depends on whom you ask ;)

What can and what can't be gpl-ed has not yet been fought about in any  
court of the world (as far as i know). Lots of companies trying to  
"steal" cearly gpl protected stuff, but never a decision on what gpl  
is and what isn't.


I say that there is a clear distinction between a stack and the  
engine, therefore it's ok to use gpl. Another person might say that it  
is one binary (when made as a standalone), so it can't be gpl- 
compatible.


I like ambiguous situations like these. But actually in Swiss rights,  
a contract is binding as long as both parties believe it to be legal,  
only when one knows it's illegal, then they'll need to change it to  
make sure it's legal from that point on. So maybe i just like the  
thought of a contract being legal as long as everyone involved knows  
nothing. :D



have fun
björnke

--

official ChatRev page:
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how to preserve character set encoding when creating a text file?

[Josh Mellicker]

In Czechoslovakia, the "Application Data" folder on Windows XP is  
called "Data aplikací". So, when we get specialfolderpath("26"), the  
path looks something like this:


C:/Documents and Settings/Username/Data aplikací/OurFolder/

In Rev, all works fine.

But when we create a regular text batch file:

   put tBatchCommands into URL ("binfile:" & theBatchFileLoc())

the Czech character is transformed into this:

C:/Documents and Settings/Username/Data aplikacÌ/OurFolder/

and when running the batch file, the system cannot find the path.

Obviously we are messing up the character encoding when we write the  
text file and the (one character, in our case) is changed.


Has anyone run into this or know how to preserve character encoding in  
our text file?___

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Re: Can you disable the user from dragging a stack in a stand alone ?

[Devin Asay]

On Oct 20, 2009, at 3:57 PM, tareq_tawaiha wrote:




Hello Mark,

yes, now i use "set the rect of stack "writing" to the screenrect",  
since i
need it to work the same on any screen size. that is good. but i  
also set
the " float above everything " option on the stack inspector , and  
now i
cant save it as stand alone, because the save window stays behind my  
card.


Tareq,

You need to limit the "float above everything" option to the  
standalone environment. Try this, in your stack script or the card  
script:


if the environment is "standalone application" then
  set the systemWindow of stack "writing" to true
else
  set the systemWindow of stack "writing" to false
end if

Hope this helps.

Devin





Mark Schonewille-3 wrote:


Hi Tareq,

How big is your screen? Have you set the maxheight and maxwidth of
your stack to too small a number perhaps?

You could try

set the rect of stack "writing" to the screenrect

instead of

set the fullscreen of stack "writing" to true

--
Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com

Submit your software at http://www.quickestpublisher.com

On 17 okt 2009, at 00:24, tareq_tawaiha wrote:




I have attached 2 pictures of my screen, the first image is a
picture of how
the stack looks when it is open 

http://www.nabble.com/file/p25933246/Picture%2B1.png   
the
second is how it looks on my desktop after dragging it using my
mouse.http://www.nabble.com/file/p25933246/Picture%2B2.jpeg   notice where my cursor is in the 3rd image , i am able to change
the
location of the stack. I want to disable that so the user is not
able to
move it around on the screen.  Does that clarify the question ?











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--
View this message in context: 
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Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Devin Asay
Humanities Technology and Research Support Center
Brigham Young University

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SEND IN TIMe

[Terry Dennis]

OK, I've finally had my fill of this glitch.  I haven't been able to figure 
out what causes it, so I will describe the process here and see if anybody 
else can figure out a work-around, or agrees that it's a bug.


"SEND message TO ME IN nnn SECONDS" works fine as long as there is nothing 
else happening in my PC at the time.  I've had it run for entire weekends 
with no problems.  The interval is set to 7 Minutes.


However, during weekdays when I am doing some other activity, it 
occasionally hiccups.  It happens several  times during the day -- where 
"several" can be as many as a dozen, depending on how busy I am.  I 
frequently have multiple non-Rev windows open performing several different 
tasks, some of which are CPU intensive.  That's when my Rev application 
doesn't re-trigger itself.  At least it doesn't appear to.


It appears that the message is not sent -- or not received?  Maybe the 
message is triggered only if Rev gets control during the EXACT second 
(tick?) that it's supposed to be sent, and Rev doesn't get control until 
AFTER that second?  There is nothing in the message handler that checks for 
the time it is received.  It just takes the message and does its thing.


Any thoughts?



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Re: SEND IN TIMe

[Björnke von Gierke]

a send in time message will be postponed if there's too much going on,  
or if an endless loop is running (and thus blocking rev). but after  
things have calmed down, it should fire. so you can't trust that send  
in time is running precisely at the given interval, but you should be  
able to depend on it firing _somewhen_, and not get lost. So if you  
expect the time to be divisible trough 7 minutes (or any other time  
interval), then your handler will not run correctly.


make sure that your handler notifies you, make it beep three time if  
necessarily. I often think my code is not executed because of a bug,  
only to find out that i have added overzealous error checking, which  
makes the handler not give me notice because the property "error  
checking" is not true (for example). because i added a check that  
never could be true, it would not update a status field or run any of  
my dozens of beeps, answer dialogs or "put into msg", which i had  
added over the evening. took me hours to find out that problem, and  
the code i actually wanted to test worked fine the first time! :(


did you check if rev is running an endless handler, a blocking loop or  
a similar task (for example "wait" can block the whole of rev, if used  
wrongly).


do you use cancel? if yes, try to comment out the cancel code, maybe  
you are cancelling the wrong message?


what do the pendingmessages say in your case, is the message really  
gone into the void, or maybe it's set to something strange?


it also might be a platform specific thing. what os, and what rev  
version is this, is it a standalone, or in the ide? for example, i had  
something similar with sockets on linux but on mac os x, any such  
problem never happened to me.


some random thoughts that i'd want to be checked, before i could  
actually make a guess if it could be a bug or not.


bjoernke

On 21 Oct 2009, at 01:33, Terry Dennis wrote:

OK, I've finally had my fill of this glitch.  I haven't been able to  
figure out what causes it, so I will describe the process here and  
see if anybody else can figure out a work-around, or agrees that  
it's a bug.


"SEND message TO ME IN nnn SECONDS" works fine as long as there is  
nothing else happening in my PC at the time.  I've had it run for  
entire weekends with no problems.  The interval is set to 7 Minutes.


However, during weekdays when I am doing some other activity, it  
occasionally hiccups.  It happens several  times during the day --  
where "several" can be as many as a dozen, depending on how busy I  
am.  I frequently have multiple non-Rev windows open performing  
several different tasks, some of which are CPU intensive.  That's  
when my Rev application doesn't re-trigger itself.  At least it  
doesn't appear to.


It appears that the message is not sent -- or not received?  Maybe  
the message is triggered only if Rev gets control during the EXACT  
second (tick?) that it's supposed to be sent, and Rev doesn't get  
control until AFTER that second?  There is nothing in the message  
handler that checks for the time it is received.  It just takes the  
message and does its thing.


Any thoughts?



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--

official ChatRev page:
http://bjoernke.com?target=chatrev

Chat with other RunRev developers:
go stack URL "http://bjoernke.com/chatrev/chatrev1.3b3.rev";

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Re: Post - error socket is not open

[Ray Horsley]

Pierre,

Thanks for this valuable lead.  Interesting stuff.  I've also had a  
response from the LibURL shark himself, Dave Cragg, so I'm sure I'll  
be able to resolve this.


Ray Horsley
LinkIt! Software

On Oct 20, 2009, at 1:35 PM, Pierre Sahores wrote:


Hi Ray

In supposing that you are running a rev standalone as an  
application's server (not as on-rev / irev paradigm solutions does),  
you will probably get some usable informations in this tutorial i  
wrote years ago. The purposed contains was more usefull at that time  
as it is today : the new irev runrev web technology is definitivelly  
lots more reliable.




Best Regards,

Pierre



Le 21 oct. 09 à 00:53, Ray Horsley a écrit :

Some of our users are intermittently getting this error "error  
socket is not open" in the result when posting an http request to a  
web server.  I'm unable to repeat it.  The standalone is not in the  
startup process and I'm sure the internet library was included in  
the build.  Any ideas on why or how to test for this?


Thanks,

Ray Horsley
LinkIt! Software

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--
Pierre Sahores
mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70

www.wrds.com
www.sahores-conseil.com






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Re: Re-2: repeat or send - what takes less cpu time?

[Sarah Reichelt]

Yes, it will still react to everything while waiting for the "send".
In fact the "send" will not happen exactly on time if the app is busy
doing something else, but will happen as soon as the app is free,
after the elapsed time.

Cheers,
Sarah


On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:20 AM,   wrote:
> Sarah,
>
> thanks for your answer. The app is still reacting to other things like 
> keystrokes or button clicks?
>
> Matthias
>
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: repeat or send - what takes less cpu time? (21-Okt-2009 0:08)
> From:    Sarah Reichelt 
> To:      runrev260...@m-r-d.de
>
>> > i have to create a little app, which stays in the taskbar and connects
>> > every 5 minutes to a website to check, if a specific file is online. If
>> > this file is not found the program waits 5 minutes before it checks again
>> > for the file. What takes less cpu time? A repeat loop or should i better
>> > use "send"
>>
>> I recommend using "send". That way the app is resting and not using
>> any CPU during it's 5 minutes.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sarah
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Re:SEND IN TIMe

[Richard Gaskin]

Terry Dennis wrote:

OK, I've finally had my fill of this glitch.  I haven't been able to figure 
out what causes it, so I will describe the process here and see if anybody 
else can figure out a work-around, or agrees that it's a bug.


"SEND message TO ME IN nnn SECONDS" works fine as long as there is nothing 
else happening in my PC at the time.  I've had it run for entire weekends 
with no problems.  The interval is set to 7 Minutes.


However, during weekdays when I am doing some other activity, it 
occasionally hiccups.  It happens several  times during the day -- where 
"several" can be as many as a dozen, depending on how busy I am.  I 
frequently have multiple non-Rev windows open performing several different 
tasks, some of which are CPU intensive.  That's when my Rev application 
doesn't re-trigger itself.  At least it doesn't appear to.


It appears that the message is not sent -- or not received?  Maybe the 
message is triggered only if Rev gets control during the EXACT second 
(tick?) that it's supposed to be sent, and Rev doesn't get control until 
AFTER that second?  There is nothing in the message handler that checks for 
the time it is received.  It just takes the message and does its thing.


I don't have an answer to that, as I've always had sent message handled 
well as soon as the next idle hits.


But FWIW, I also just tested "wait", using:

wait 300 secs; answer "done!"

I saw no noticeable change in my CPU history as displayed in Apple's 
Activity Monitor.


I suppose it would be better to use "wait...with messages", but even 
without the "with messages" it doesn't seem to drag the system; "with 
messages" or normally only truly necessary when you need other events 
triggered within Rev.


HTH -


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: [OT]Grace Hopper

[Phil Davis]

It has been about 18 years years since I used COBOL, but for about a 
decade it was my primary language for business system development. It 
was pretty easy for a "wordy" guy like me to work with.


Phil Davis


Mark Smith wrote:

There's a nice article about Grace Hopper here:
http://www.i-programmer.info/history/8-people/294-the-mother-of-cobol.html 



It shows an example of the verbose language for her B-0 compiler:

The language was targeted at business use and Hopper even felt that 
arithmetic expressions were too complicated for the average user and 
introduced a very wordy language - for example


Add One To Total
rather than
Total=Total+1

Strangely familiar
Best,

Mark Smith


--
Phil Davis

PDS Labs
Professional Software Development
http://pdslabs.net

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Re: Music ????

[capellan]

Hi All,

Remember that UDI published many stacks
to play Midi music using Quicktime.
And there is a Keyboard, too:

http://homepage.mac.com/udi/stack/tool.html

Mac Users should not have problems to
decode all Rev and Zip files encoded as HQX,
but Windows Users without WinZip or
Stuffit Expander, should download
UUDeview to decode HQX:

http://www.miken.com/uud/

Surely, these stacks will benefit from a code update,
to use recent additions to the language.

Alejandro
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Music--tp25963613p25985636.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Resizeable Fields

[Sivakatirswami]

Before I go re-inventing the wheel,
has anyone invented user re-sizeable fields?

I suppose sticky palette with the Select and Browse
tools could also work , but not as cool as some mousedown/drag
event...

if so, can you post the code here?

(I'm watching with interest all the open source discussions...we really, 
really need a single respository somewhere!)


skts



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Re: SEND IN TIMe

[Sarah Reichelt]

> "SEND message TO ME IN nnn SECONDS" works fine as long as there is nothing
> else happening in my PC at the time.  I've had it run for entire weekends
> with no problems.  The interval is set to 7 Minutes.
>
> However, during weekdays when I am doing some other activity, it
> occasionally hiccups.  It happens several  times during the day -- where
> "several" can be as many as a dozen, depending on how busy I am.  I
> frequently have multiple non-Rev windows open performing several different
> tasks, some of which are CPU intensive.  That's when my Rev application
> doesn't re-trigger itself.  At least it doesn't appear to.

Are you running a standalone or from inside the Rev IDE? I have had
messages lost due to editing the script at the wrong moment.

However in critical apps with lots of pending messages, I put in
another handler that checks that all the expected messages are in the
pendingMessages list and re-schedules them if they are not. It then
calls itself. The other pending messages also check to see that the
message checking handler is in the queue, so they are each checking
each other. Using this routine, I have never had problems with missing
messages in a standalone. And I'm not sure that it is really
necessary, but I started doing it for an app with lots of scheduled
messages where it was unattended and vital. Messages can be delayed if
the app is busy doing something else, but I haven't had any go
missing.

One other good technique is to reschedule the next call to the handler
at the start of the handler instead of at the end. This means that
even if there is a problem when running the handler, the pending
message has already been created. And if timing is slightly more
important, it removes the time taken to complete the handler from the
calculation for the next event.

Cheers,
Sarah
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Open Source and Forking It

[Peter Alcibiades]

Forking It

Richard asks on another thread (not yet on Nabble, which quite often seems 
to run late) whether there is any way of being Open Source and not having 
forking.

No, definitely not.  As soon as you have any such restriction, you have 
left Open Source.  

And this is fundamental to the idea of Open Source.  What it seeks to do is 
give people power to do whatever modifications they want to the source 
code, as long as they contribute back what they have done.  This is why 
Ballmer made such rude remarks about it.  This is also why it is only about 
the power to do things with the code.  What it runs on or what the 
requirements for running it are, is immaterial.  

The classic example of recent forking occurred with X windows.  Over a 
period of a couple of months, Xorg forked from Xfree86, and secured 
universal adoption by all Linux distributions.  The team simply left and 
took the code with them.  Recently on a matter closer to home, we have seen 
a fork, or an attempted fork, of PythonCard.  If you look on DistroWatch, 
there are north of 350 different distributions of Linux now.  Well, these 
are all forks.  On the other hand, you notice there is only one Python.  
Basically, projects that keep in touch and are responsive do not get 
forked.  Ones that are of no interest do not get forked.  But if you start 
acting, on a project people really are interested in, like an unresponsive 
commercial developer, you definitely will get the project forked.  As 
Xfree86 found.

It can be open source and run on Windows or Mac OS, as long as you get the 
source under a copyright waiver which lets you make any mods of it you want 
as long as you pass them on.

It cannot be open source if anyone can stop you making mods and 
incorporating them into your project, even were it to run on open hardware, 
open cpu, open boot code, open OS.

It cannot be open source if you have the power to modify some of it but not 
the rest of it.  For instance, OSX is not open source, even were it to run 
on an open source kernel.

Something either is or is not open source.  There is no such thing as being 
partly or somewhat open source.

It is because being open source is a feature of the code, and not of what 
it runs on, and because the essence of it is the power to modify and re-use 
it, that the question of proprietary IDE and language is important.  This 
is not a matter of purism or obsession with detail.  It is an essential 
point, though one on which reasonable people can havbe different opinions.

Take a case where the source is released under the GPL, but to work on it 
you need an IDE which costs several tens of thousands, and is itself 
proprietary?  Can this really be open source?  Reasonable people can 
differ.  You could argue that in effect you have the source and the ability 
and the right to recreate it in Python, so it is.  Or you could argue (if 
the code generated by the IDE is totally obfuscated) that this is such a 
barrier to exploiting those rights that it is no longer open source in 
spirit.

This is why the availability of Media is an important consideration in the 
debate.  The case is much stronger, even if the IDE is proprietary, if it 
is free as in beer and freely distributable.

Peter
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