Database Experience

[John Dixon]

I am interested to know what database people are using with Revolution.

What seems to be the favourite and for what reason... Are you using  MySQL,
Postgres or Valentina, for example... What prompted your choice ? Are
you using databases in a personal or commercial capacity ?

Any information on this would be appreciated for an article on database use
that I am working on.

Rather  than posting your replies to the list, if you would reply to me
offlist... That'll keep a lot of people happy.

Kind regards,

John Dixon

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Re: Database Experience

[Richard Harrison]

On Mar 15, 2004, at 4:47 PM, John Dixon wrote:

I am interested to know what database people are using with Revolution.
,,,
Rather  than posting your replies to the list, if you would reply to me
offlist... That'll keep a lot of people happy.
Kind regards,

John Dixon


I'd be interested in knowing this too.  Why don't you post it to the 
list?
I think there would be a lot of people interested in knowing what
databases work best with Rev!

Rick Harrison

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Re: Database Experience

[David Vaughan]

On 16/03/2004, at 8:47, John Dixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am interested to know what database people are using with Revolution.

What seems to be the favourite and for what reason... Are you using  
MySQL,
Postgres or Valentina, for example...
Valentina
What prompted your choice ?
Speed (execution)
 Are
you using databases in a personal or commercial capacity ?
Internal to own business
Any information on this would be appreciated for an article on 
database use
that I am working on.
Sorry, I haven't much more to add really.
Rather  than posting your replies to the list, if you would reply to me
offlist... That'll keep a lot of people happy.
Well, for my part I am curious to see summary responses.

cheers
David
Kind regards,

John Dixon
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Re: Database Experience

[hershrev]

In genaral I work with PostgreSQL on a mac g3 400 power book , No 
problem except  that Postgres is a pain in the neck, command line . 
Other then that not to complain it doesn't ask for much , just for SQL 
, but thats about it once its up , its up and flying
RunRuv + Postgres =much faster then MYOB or QUICK BOOKS
On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 06:00 PM, Richard Harrison wrote:

On Mar 15, 2004, at 4:47 PM, John Dixon wrote:

I am interested to know what database people are using with 
Revolution.
,,,

Rather  than posting your replies to the list, if you would reply to 
me
offlist... That'll keep a lot of people happy.

Kind regards,

John Dixon


I'd be interested in knowing this too.  Why don't you post it to the 
list?
I think there would be a lot of people interested in knowing what
databases work best with Rev!

Rick Harrison

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Re: Database Experience

[John Dixon]

Rick,

I asked for replies offlist because I did not want to get flamed for asking
for information to be posted to the list that some (many?) might regard as
being way off topic... But if people wish to reply with their opinions to
the list, who am I to argue about it.

Regards,

John Dixon


On 15/3/04 11:00 pm, "Richard Harrison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Mar 15, 2004, at 4:47 PM, John Dixon wrote:
> 
>> I am interested to know what database people are using with Revolution.
>> John Dixon
>> 
>> 
> 
> I'd be interested in knowing this too.  Why don't you post it to the
> list?
> I think there would be a lot of people interested in knowing what
> databases work best with Rev!
> 
> Rick Harrison
> 
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Re: Database Experience

[hershrev]

I'd also suggest that RR should have a native driver for OpenBase. a 
commercial db. Its fast , stable, very easy to use and install, very 
nice GUI (no command line necessary), portable ( cross platt.), many 
years on the market , bundles good as a commercial package. and 
inexpensive.
hershrev
On Monday, March 15, 2004, at 06:36 PM, John Dixon wrote:

Rick,

I asked for replies offlist because I did not want to get flamed for 
asking
for information to be posted to the list that some (many?) might 
regard as
being way off topic... But if people wish to reply with their opinions 
to
the list, who am I to argue about it.

Regards,

John Dixon

On 15/3/04 11:00 pm, "Richard Harrison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

On Mar 15, 2004, at 4:47 PM, John Dixon wrote:

I am interested to know what database people are using with 
Revolution.
John Dixon


I'd be interested in knowing this too.  Why don't you post it to the
list?
I think there would be a lot of people interested in knowing what
databases work best with Rev!
Rick Harrison

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Re: Database Experience

[Richard Harrison]

On Mar 15, 2004, at 6:36 PM, John Dixon wrote:

Rick,

I asked for replies offlist because I did not want to get flamed for 
asking
for information to be posted to the list that some (many?) might 
regard as
being way off topic... But if people wish to reply with their opinions 
to
the list, who am I to argue about it.

Regards,

John Dixon
John,

You shouldn't feel that you are going to get flamed for something like a
database question as to how it works/doesn't work with Revolution.
If you are getting flamed for that, then there is something wrong with
this list.  I thought we were trying to foster a friendly atmosphere 
here
so that people will feel free to ask their questions so we can all learn
from each other about Revolution.

I wonder how many other people are out there not asking their questions
because they don't want to get flamed by someone on this list.
Perhaps we all need to be more patient and tolerant on this list?

Thanks for the reply!

Rick Harrison

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Re: Database Experience

[Sarah Reichelt]

I am interested to know what database people are using with Revolution.

Interesting question and worth posting to the list as it will be 
fascinating to see what people use.
I have tested MySQL and found it to be good for multi-user purposes, 
but for single user data access, I prefer to use Revolution itself with 
data stored in fields in a hidden data stack. It's fast and easy to 
find data, edit data and it saves as a complete stack so I can keep 
different sections of data separate but in the same file. Unless you 
need multi-user access, I consider any external database to be 
overkill.

Cheers,
Sarah
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Re: Database Experience

[John Tenny]

And what's been the experience with importing data from PDAs into Rev, 
in some database format? How y'all doin' that?

John



Peace,

   John

John L. Tenny, Ph.D.
Flowing Thought Educational Solutions
eCOVE: The Observation Toolkit Software
www.flowing-thought.com
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Re: Database Experience

[Rob Cozens]

Hi John,

I am interested to know what database people are using with Revolution.

What seems to be the favourite and for what reason... Are you using  MySQL,
Postgres or Valentina, for example...
I use Serendipity Database--Binary, or SDB.

What prompted your choice ?
I had used a HyperTalk predecessor to SDB for almost a decade, and I 
wanted a native Transcript database application that can be deployed 
on all Revolution platforms without DLLs, extensions, or Unix command 
line syntax.  I also wanted a db engine I could modify & extend when 
it becomes desirable.

 Are you using databases in a personal or commercial capacity ?
Both

Any information on this would be appreciated for an article on database use
that I am working on.
It's available at 

Rather  than posting your replies to the list, if you would reply to me
offlist... That'll keep a lot of people happy.
Apparently others want the answers posted to the List; so here is my reply.
--
Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: Database Experience

[Rob Cozens]

John,

Any information on this would be appreciated for an article on database use
that I am working on.
I gathered some additional thoughts from private posts to send you 
off-list; but I no longer have your original message or private 
eAddress:

Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 09:13:25 -0700
To: "Tuviah Snyder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Rob Cozens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: A Few More Thoughts Re SDB & SQL
Hi Tuviah,

I'm so pleased to get to meet you last night.  I hope to work 
closely with you re any issues, questions, or problems RunRev might 
have as I deliver Client/Server SDB and promote it as an alternative 
to SQL & Valentina, and I think it helps in those situations to have 
met face-to-face.

Here are the thoughts I shared with Jan:

 >>>
if you're looking to cooperate on
adding SQL to SDB, I'd be happy to volunteer
As of yesterday, I have a real dilemma here, Jan.

On the one hand, it would certainly promote SDB's acceptance & use 
by the RunRev community ON ONE LEVEL (back to that later), but on 
the other hand:

1.  I just got reacquainted with relational syntax for the first 
time since working with Ingress in 1983 & 84, and I HATE IT.

	A. In my estimation, at least 85% of SQL syntax has to do 
with query functions that at least 95% of my clients don't need or 
want.

	B. In my estimation, 99% of SQL data typing is non-sequitur 
for xTalks that deal primarily with strings.

	C. In my estimation, 60-80% of SQLs parsing, sorting, and 
formatting functions can be handled just as easily in Transcript at 
the client end; thus reducing the load on the server.

2.  You can give me a better idea when you get time to look under 
the hood; but I'm not sure SDB design lends itself to 
"relationalization", and more importantly...

3.  I feel like there enough SQL alternatives already available to 
RunRev developers (albeit none in Transcript).  I would like SDB to 
be seen as an alternative to SQL, not just another SQL wannabe.

I am anxious to continue this discussion once you are more familiar 
with SDB's design, capabilities, & syntax.  At that point I would 
ask you to step back from your preconceptions as to db standards, 
ask yourself "exactly what data storage & retrieval capabilities do 
I need" and "what is good and bad about the way SDB addresses my 
needs", leaving SQL compatibility a non-issue.

To be continued
<<<
The following was sent to Paul Looney & Richard Gaskin, subject "My 
Usability Chart", 18 June, 2003

 >>>
Feel free to add Valentina.
* Server Installation:

On Mac OS X, MySQL Server must be installed (& maintained) in the 
Unix root via the Terminal application using Unix command line 
syntax.  All server files & code must be in specific directory 
locations.

SDB Server can be dragged to any folder that the O/S allows 
applications to reside in.  SDB databases can be located in any 
folder(s) accessible to the server.

* Cross-Platform Installation:

MySQL requires platform-specific drivers in the form of extensions, DLLs, etc.

SDB runs as native Transcript in one version on any platform 
Revolution supports.

* Security:

MySQL requires password security & user identification before it can 
be used, and supports limited access to the field level.

SDB supports edit & browse passwords, but requires NO password 
protection or user identification for use.  [User id can be 
supported by defining a user record in the data dictionary and 
scripting support for same.]

* Data Dictionary:

MySQL requires creation of a data dictionary record (table 
definition) for each record type before records can be filed.  That 
table definition must name & type every field (column) in the table. 
If you have 100 fields, you must name & type all 100.

SDB's data dictionary is optional.  The SDB server can deal with the 
record without knowing its structure and the user can reference 
individual fields by oridinal instead of creating data name entries 
in the Dictionary.

* User Input Editing:

MySQL can only check user input for its specific edit types, and 
then only when the entire record is processed by the server. 
[Tuviah, I meant when the input is sent to the server.]  Most of the 
edit types are meaningless when working in Transcript.

SDB Client's frontScript can filter each keystroke based on data 
dictionary edit criteria and provide immediate feedback to the user. 
The Dictionary entry can also specify a Transcript edit handler & 
formatting instructions to be applied to the user's input on 
closeField.

* Access to Source Code:

MySQL is open source...in C & C++.  Anyone want to mess with that?

SDB is open source...in Transcript.

* Stability of Engine:

MySQL has been in use by thousands of users for many years and is 
proven with gigabyte+ databases.

SDB has been used by a handful of users for many years with 
single-user db's generally < 1MB (or 5K records) [a 43 MB, 
43,043-record db is the largest tested as of 16 Mar 2004]; HOWEVER, 
the underlying MetaCard card-by-id index, 

Re: Database Experience

[paolo]

 I am interested to know what database people are using with Revolution too.

I want to connect to a MySQL database from the revolution engine posted on
the CGI-BIN folder of my server provider (linux/apache).

I guess I need the MySQL library  for  linux ... but... where can I find it?
I found the
libmysql.dll for windows ... what about the library for Linux?

ciao Paolo


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Re: Database Experience

[Jan Schenkel]

--- paolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I want to connect to a MySQL database from the
> revolution engine posted on
> the CGI-BIN folder of my server provider
> (linux/apache).
> 
> I guess I need the MySQL library  for  linux ...
> but... where can I find it?
> I found the
> libmysql.dll for windows ... what about the library
> for Linux?
> 
> ciao Paolo
> 

Hi Paolo,

In your (GUI) Revolution directory you'll find all the
database drivers for Linux in :
 /components/global
environment/database_drivers/linux/
You'll find the revdb library for Linux here :
 /components/global environment/revdb-Linux

I managed to get it working on Windows by copying the
libraries straight into the same folder as the
cgi-engine.
But I'm sure others can give you advice on where to
place them for Linux.

Hope this helped,

Jan Schenkel.

=
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Rochefoucauld)

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Re: Database Experience

[Jan Schenkel]

--- John Dixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am interested to know what database people are
> using with Revolution.
> 
> What seems to be the favourite and for what
> reason... Are you using  MySQL,
> Postgres or Valentina, for example... What prompted
> your choice ? Are
> you using databases in a personal or commercial
> capacity ?
> 

As a developer of accounting and administrative
applications, I use databases in a professional
capacity.
I'm using both MySQL and Valentina in conjunction with
Revolution (*), and hope to find the time to examine
PostgreSQL soon.

Valentina is excellent if you don't need a multi-user
database ; I have a few gripes with its current
implementation of SQL but have found it to be fast and
convenient to set up.
MySQL is currently my database of choice for the
internal database-related projects I work on. It is
fast, multi-user and easy in both setup and
administration. Plus, it is available for more
platforms than Valentina.

Apart from that, I follow with interest Rob Cozens'
SDB-project, not in the least because it successfully
uses the Inter-Program Communication library libIPC
for which I ignited the project and contributed code.

Hope this helped,

Jan Schenkel.

(*) A lot of my work is done in FoxPro though, at
least until we convert all these projects into
Revolution stacks.

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Re: Database Experience

[Jim Carwardine]

Jan... I went looking at the MySQL home page to check it out.  What's the
real difference between the Classic and Pro versions.  The only explanation
I could find was very jargon heavy... Jim

on 3/17/04 8:47 AM, Jan Schenkel wrote:

> --- John Dixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I am interested to know what database people are
>> using with Revolution.
>> 
>> What seems to be the favourite and for what
>> reason... Are you using  MySQL,
>> Postgres or Valentina, for example... What prompted
>> your choice ? Are
>> you using databases in a personal or commercial
>> capacity ?
>> 
> 
> As a developer of accounting and administrative
> applications, I use databases in a professional
> capacity.
> I'm using both MySQL and Valentina in conjunction with
> Revolution (*), and hope to find the time to examine
> PostgreSQL soon.
> 
> Valentina is excellent if you don't need a multi-user
> database ; I have a few gripes with its current
> implementation of SQL but have found it to be fast and
> convenient to set up.
> MySQL is currently my database of choice for the
> internal database-related projects I work on. It is
> fast, multi-user and easy in both setup and
> administration. Plus, it is available for more
> platforms than Valentina.
> 
> Apart from that, I follow with interest Rob Cozens'
> SDB-project, not in the least because it successfully
> uses the Inter-Program Communication library libIPC
> for which I ignited the project and contributed code.
> 
> Hope this helped,
> 
> Jan Schenkel.
> 
> (*) A lot of my work is done in FoxPro though, at
> least until we convert all these projects into
> Revolution stacks.
> 
> =
> "As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."  (La
> Rochefoucauld)
> 
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Re: Database Experience

[Jan Schenkel]

--- jbv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jan,
> I just read the message you posted on the Rev list :
> 
> >
> > In your (GUI) Revolution directory you'll find all
> the
> > database drivers for Linux in :
> >  /components/global
> > environment/database_drivers/linux/
> > You'll find the revdb library for Linux here :
> >  /components/global environment/revdb-Linux
> >
> 
> I'm looking for the Postgresql library for Linux but
> can't locate it, and can't locate the directory
> mentioned
> in your message either...
> What is the full URL ?
> 
> Thanks,
> JB
> 

Hi JB,

You needn't look on the server : just look on your
hard drive, in the directory where you installed your
GUI Revolution (not the cgi-engine)
The postgresql driver for Linux should be :
 /components/global
environment/database_drivers/linux/dbpostgresql.so

You don't have to place these database drivers in the
same directory as your cgi-bin, as you can tell the
cgi-engine where to find them by including a call to
'revSetDatabaseDriverPath' before connecting to the
database.

Hope this helped,

Jan Schenkel.

=
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Re: Database Experience

[Jan Schenkel]

--- Jim Carwardine
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jan... I went looking at the MySQL home page to
> check it out.  What's the
> real difference between the Classic and Pro
> versions.  The only explanation
> I could find was very jargon heavy... Jim
> 

If I interpret it right, the 'Classic' version is the
standard database system, which doesn't support
transactions.
The 'Pro' version uses a different storage system,
called InnoDB, which does support transactions, so you
can 'commit' or 'rollback' a series of updates to the
database.

Jan Schenkel.

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RE: Database Experience

[rich . solomon]

Transactions in this sense are a specific feature of a dbms.  They are
committed (updated to the database) by a specific command, and can be rolled
back by another specific command.  Of course in a general sense you are
correct.

-Original Message-
From: Jim Carwardine [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:04 AM
To: Revolution Listserve
Subject: Re: Database Experience


When I think of a transaction I think of updating data to the database.
Does this mean that the Classic version only supports queries, but can
support multiple user queries, where Pro supports multiple user updates as
well?  Jim

on 3/17/04 10:18 AM, Jan Schenkel wrote:

> --- Jim Carwardine
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Jan... I went looking at the MySQL home page to
>> check it out.  What's the
>> real difference between the Classic and Pro
>> versions.  The only explanation
>> I could find was very jargon heavy... Jim
>> 
> 
> If I interpret it right, the 'Classic' version is the
> standard database system, which doesn't support
> transactions.
> The 'Pro' version uses a different storage system,
> called InnoDB, which does support transactions, so you
> can 'commit' or 'rollback' a series of updates to the
> database.
> 
> Jan Schenkel.
> 
> =
> "As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."
(La
> Rochefoucauld)
> 
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Re: Database Experience

[Jan Schenkel]

--- Jim Carwardine
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> When I think of a transaction I think of updating
> data to the database.
> Does this mean that the Classic version only
> supports queries, but can
> support multiple user queries, where Pro supports
> multiple user updates as
> well?  Jim
> 

A transaction is a set of database changes that needs
to be treated as one operation : either they all
succeed, or they all fail.
So suppose you're updating a series of records, and
somewhere along the way you notice that something is
not as expected : to undo the changes you've made so
far, you can 'rollback' the transaction.
Does that make more sense ?

In conclusion, if MySQL Classic doesn't support
transactions, that means you can't 'rollback' your
changes halfway down the road ; MySQL Pro, using
InnoDB databases, does allow you to 'rollback' these
changes.

Hope this clarified it a bit,

Jan Schenkel.

=
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Re: Database Experience

[Jan Schenkel]

--- Richard Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I see a lot of people talking about MySQL, what
> about FileMaker Pro?
> Especially the new version 7?
> 
> Are there reasons that people aren't using FileMaker
> Pro?  Isn't it
> quick enough or does it not interface well with
> Revolution?  Isn't it
> multi-user?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Rick Harrison
> 

Hi Rick,

Just speaking for myself, I'd say it's because
FileMaker can only be reached via ODBC or in a
roundabout fashion via its WebCompanion and
http-calls, thus requiring complex setup.
Moreover, before FileMaker 7 its database
underpinnings were no match for the likes of MySQL,
PostgreSQL, Oracle,...

Jan Schenkel.

=
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Re: Database Experience

[Jan Schenkel]

--- jbv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually, my whole Linux & Postgresql will be
> installed
> for me by my ISP on a dedicated server.
> So, can I assume that the right drivers will be
> installed at
> the right place, and that all I have to do is
> install the Linux
> Rev-cgi engine, and then make a call to
> 'revSetDatabaseDriverPath'
> in my scripts (with the right path) to be up and
> running ?
> 
> Thanks,
> JB
> 

Rev+PostgreSQL+Linux guru Pierre Sahores might give
you more detailed advice, but I'd say that once your
ISP has installed the server, you'll need to :
- install the cgi-engine in the right place
- upload the database-drivers to the server
- write your cgi-scripts, using
'revSetDatabaseDriverPath' to point the cgi-engine to
the database drivers.

Hope this helped,

Jan Schenkel.

=
"As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."  (La 
Rochefoucauld)

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Re: Database Experience

[Jim Carwardine]

Got it, thanks.  My rust is showing.  I was involved in the introduction of
a true DBMS as designed by GE in the 60's but haven't done anything in the
last 30 years.  Back then we didn't use the same jargon so I'm busy updating
my lexicon as I contemplate what I might need to produce my app.

I did use (fought with) FileMaker about 10 years ago and am interested to
the response to the questions around that product... Jim

on 3/17/04 11:51 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Transactions in this sense are a specific feature of a dbms.  They are
> committed (updated to the database) by a specific command, and can be rolled
> back by another specific command.  Of course in a general sense you are
> correct.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Carwardine [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 9:04 AM
> To: Revolution Listserve
> Subject: Re: Database Experience
> 
> 
> When I think of a transaction I think of updating data to the database.
> Does this mean that the Classic version only supports queries, but can
> support multiple user queries, where Pro supports multiple user updates as
> well?  Jim
> 
> on 3/17/04 10:18 AM, Jan Schenkel wrote:
> 
>> --- Jim Carwardine
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Jan... I went looking at the MySQL home page to
>>> check it out.  What's the
>>> real difference between the Classic and Pro
>>> versions.  The only explanation
>>> I could find was very jargon heavy... Jim
>>> 
>> 
>> If I interpret it right, the 'Classic' version is the
>> standard database system, which doesn't support
>> transactions.
>> The 'Pro' version uses a different storage system,
>> called InnoDB, which does support transactions, so you
>> can 'commit' or 'rollback' a series of updates to the
>> database.
>> 
>> Jan Schenkel.
>> 
>> =
>> "As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."
> (La
>> Rochefoucauld)
>> 
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Re: Database Experience

[Jim Carwardine]

Yes, that plus Richard's comments were very helpful... I now clearly
understand.  (See my comments to Richard)  Thanks... Jim

on 3/17/04 11:56 AM, Jan Schenkel wrote:

> --- Jim Carwardine
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> When I think of a transaction I think of updating
>> data to the database.
>> Does this mean that the Classic version only
>> supports queries, but can
>> support multiple user queries, where Pro supports
>> multiple user updates as
>> well?  Jim
>> 
> 
> A transaction is a set of database changes that needs
> to be treated as one operation : either they all
> succeed, or they all fail.
> So suppose you're updating a series of records, and
> somewhere along the way you notice that something is
> not as expected : to undo the changes you've made so
> far, you can 'rollback' the transaction.
> Does that make more sense ?
> 
> In conclusion, if MySQL Classic doesn't support
> transactions, that means you can't 'rollback' your
> changes halfway down the road ; MySQL Pro, using
> InnoDB databases, does allow you to 'rollback' these
> changes.
> 
> Hope this clarified it a bit,
> 
> Jan Schenkel.
> 
> =
> "As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."  (La
> Rochefoucauld)
> 
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Re: Database Experience

[Jim Carwardine]

In fact, I do have another question.  If I read the Rev docs correctly,
unlike HC, in an interactive app, Rev will not update data held in a
standalone but will update data held in a second Rev file (or other text or
SQL file).  If I update pictures to a button icon or modify a custom
property of a container, do I have to store those elements in the off-line
file as well?  Jim 

on 3/17/04 11:59 AM, Jan Schenkel wrote:

> --- Richard Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>> I see a lot of people talking about MySQL, what
>> about FileMaker Pro?
>> Especially the new version 7?
>> 
>> Are there reasons that people aren't using FileMaker
>> Pro?  Isn't it
>> quick enough or does it not interface well with
>> Revolution?  Isn't it
>> multi-user?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance!
>> 
>> Rick Harrison
>> 
> 
> Hi Rick,
> 
> Just speaking for myself, I'd say it's because
> FileMaker can only be reached via ODBC or in a
> roundabout fashion via its WebCompanion and
> http-calls, thus requiring complex setup.
> Moreover, before FileMaker 7 its database
> underpinnings were no match for the likes of MySQL,
> PostgreSQL, Oracle,...
> 
> Jan Schenkel.
> 
> =
> "As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."  (La
> Rochefoucauld)
> 
> __
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Re: Database Experience

[Robert Brenstein]

--- Richard Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
 I see a lot of people talking about MySQL, what
 about FileMaker Pro?
 Especially the new version 7?
 Are there reasons that people aren't using FileMaker
 Pro?  Isn't it
 quick enough or does it not interface well with
 Revolution?  Isn't it
 multi-user?
 Thanks in advance!

 Rick Harrison

Hi Rick,

Just speaking for myself, I'd say it's because
FileMaker can only be reached via ODBC or in a
roundabout fashion via its WebCompanion and
http-calls, thus requiring complex setup.
Moreover, before FileMaker 7 its database
underpinnings were no match for the likes of MySQL,
PostgreSQL, Oracle,...
Jan Schenkel.

Let me add that on Macs, one can easily and efficiently 
communicate/control FMP using AppleEvents. However, the beauty and 
power of FMP is not in its engine but in its GUI, so it does not make 
much sense to build secondary GUIs in Rev.  I suspect that this will 
hold even with the new engine of FMP7.

RObert Brenstein
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Re: Database Experience

[Richard Gaskin]

...what about FileMaker Pro? Especially the new version 7?
FMPO v7.0 is indeed a great upgrade, and while I'll continue to use it 
internally I still can't use it for client projects.

When I get a new project for which a database would be the solution, I 
inclue FMP in an evaluation matrix and inevitably it gets knocked out of 
the running early on for it's minimal UI control.  Only one menu can be 
modified, scripts are tiggered by very few events, and it has little if 
any support for native controls.

I get much more mileage out of Rev for the UI, using any of the database 
interfaces provided.  And more often than not I'm working with data sets 
small enough that just stashing data in custom property arrays works 
great and keeps everything in native Transcript.

--
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 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Database Experience

[Graham Samuel]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:33:55 -0800, Richard Gaskin 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[snip]


Only one menu can be
modified, scripts are tiggered by very few events, and it has little if
any support for native controls.
Is script-tiggering a kind of bouncing? Something Scott Rossi should be 
interested in, perhaps.

Graham

---
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Re: Database Experience

[Jim Carwardine]

Richard, can you describe what you mean by "custom property arrays"... Jim

on 3/17/04 5:33 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> I get much more mileage out of Rev for the UI, using any of the database
> interfaces provided.  And more often than not I'm working with data sets
> small enough that just stashing data in custom property arrays works
> great and keeps everything in native Transcript.

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Re: Database Experience

[Jim Carwardine]

When I go to http://www.mysql.com/downloads/index.html
 I don't see the adjectives "Classic" or "Pro" on the free download.  I do
see words like SAP for the MaxDB version which I recognize as high end DB
stuff that lead me to think that the version of MySQL available there is
capable of handing transactions.  What do you think?  Jim

on 3/17/04 11:56 AM, Jan Schenkel wrote:

> In conclusion, if MySQL Classic doesn't support
> transactions, that means you can't 'rollback' your
> changes halfway down the road ; MySQL Pro, using
> InnoDB databases, does allow you to 'rollback' these
> changes.

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Re: Database Experience

[Richard Harrison]

Hi there,

I really appreciate everyone's responses as to which Databases they 
like to use
with Revolution and why.

Unfortunately for me if I'm going to migrate from FileMaker Pro to 
MySQL I have my
work cut out for me for a long time as I have a lot of time invested in 
FileMaker.  I keep
hoping that FileMaker will get its act together when the time comes
that I'm ready to deploy my applications.

FileMaker doesn't seem to understand the concept of record locking when 
multiple users
on the internet are trying to access the same record at the exact same 
time.

If anyone has an easy solution to this please let me know.

Thanks again!

Rick Harrison

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Re: Database Experience

[Richard Gaskin]

Richard Harrison wrote:

Unfortunately for me if I'm going to migrate from FileMaker Pro to MySQL 
I have my
work cut out for me for a long time as I have a lot of time invested in 
FileMaker.  I keep
hoping that FileMaker will get its act together when the time comes
that I'm ready to deploy my applications.

FileMaker doesn't seem to understand the concept of record locking when 
multiple users
on the internet are trying to access the same record at the exact same 
time.

If anyone has an easy solution to this please let me know.
There's a FileMaker to MySQL migration kit:



I beleive it was even made with Rev.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
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Re: Database Experience

[Richard Harrison]

On Mar 20, 2004, at 4:22 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Richard Harrison wrote:
...
If anyone has an easy solution to this please let me know.
There's a FileMaker to MySQL migration kit:



I beleive it was even made with Rev.

--
 Richard Gaskin
Thanks for the URL!

Rick Harrison

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Re: Database Experience

[paolo]

I  installed the cgi-engine (Rev 2.0 for Linux)  in the cgi-bin of my server
provider (Linux/apache) an it work great ... then i tryedtoconnectto a
mysql-database  after having
- uploaded the database-driver (dbmysql.so from the Linux folder) to the
server
- set the permission of the file (chmod 777 )
- set 'revSetDatabaseDriverPath' to point the cgi-engine to the database
drivers
- written a cgi-scripts to connectto a MYSQL database installed on the
server
(put revOpenDatabase(cinfo["MYSQL","dbhost,dbdatabase,dbuser,dbpassword)
into dbresult)
- run the CGI

I  got:   revdberr,invalid database type

I guess this is because revolution can not find the driver. Am I right?
I cecked the 'revSetDatabaseDriverPath'.. it is correct  .. any idea?

Ciao Paolo

> Rev+PostgreSQL+Linux guru Pierre Sahores might give
> you more detailed advice, but I'd say that once your
> ISP has installed the server, you'll need to :
> - install the cgi-engine in the right place
> - upload the database-drivers to the server
> - write your cgi-scripts, using
> 'revSetDatabaseDriverPath' to point the cgi-engine to
> the database drivers.
>
> Hope this helped,
>
> Jan Schenkel.
>
> =
> "As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."
(La Rochefoucauld)
>
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Re: Database Experience

[Bruce Robertson]

> FileMaker doesn't seem to understand the concept of record locking when
> multiple users on the internet are trying to access the same record
> at the exact same time.

And you do? MySQL does? I don't think so.

The internet is stateless. If you want to build a custom record locking
solution for web transactions, you can do it and you will face the same
issues in any  system. It only takes a very simple calculation in edit
privileges to accomplish.

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Re: Database Experience

[Andre Garzia]

On Mar 23, 2004, at 12:19 AM, Bruce Robertson wrote:

And you do? MySQL does? I don't think so.

The internet is stateless. If you want to build a custom record locking
solution for web transactions, you can do it and you will face the same
issues in any  system. It only takes a very simple calculation in edit
privileges to accomplish.
uh... I use XML and a little array. when record is accessed, the arrays 
(hum... actually is not an array, it's a queue) is checked, if the 
record is in the arrays, this meaning it's being edited right now, then 
it cannot be accessed, if it's not in the array, then it's unlocked. 
This is done before any DB connection function. It works fine. what do 
you think?

Cheers


--
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Re: Database Experience

[Brian Yennie]

Worth noting that for a web app, if you are going to lock records then 
those locks must timeout after a while- otherwise someone can leave 
something locked forever, and there is no way for you to detect for 
sure that they are gone.

And you do? MySQL does? I don't think so.

The internet is stateless. If you want to build a custom record 
locking
solution for web transactions, you can do it and you will face the 
same
issues in any  system. It only takes a very simple calculation in edit
privileges to accomplish.
uh... I use XML and a little array. when record is accessed, the 
arrays (hum... actually is not an array, it's a queue) is checked, if 
the record is in the arrays, this meaning it's being edited right now, 
then it cannot be accessed, if it's not in the array, then it's 
unlocked. This is done before any DB connection function. It works 
fine. what do you think?
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Re: Database Experience

[Andre Garzia]

On Mar 23, 2002, at 12:37 AM, Brian Yennie wrote:

Worth noting that for a web app, if you are going to lock records then 
those locks must timeout after a while- otherwise someone can leave 
something locked forever, and there is no way for you to detect for 
sure that they are gone.
yes... I learned that the hard way I remember shouting "WHY THE 
HELL CAN'T I CHANGE MY PREFS RECORDS THIS CODE IS BUGGY!!!"... tesc 
tesc tesc... after one hour struggle with session management routines, 
cookies and the like I thought "Who is removing the records from the 
queue if user disconects..."... I went to the kitchen and opened a 
coke.

There's also another grip, if the DB does not support rollback, you 
might want to store old values in a cache for a while so that you can 
hard code a rollback... yes, this is ugly, but so is any "undo"...

--
Andre Alves Garzia  2004
Soap Dog Studios - BRAZIL
http://studio.soapdog.org
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Re: Database Experience

[Bruce Robertson]

> On Mar 23, 2004, at 12:19 AM, Bruce Robertson wrote:
> 
>> And you do? MySQL does? I don't think so.
>> 
>> The internet is stateless. If you want to build a custom record locking
>> solution for web transactions, you can do it and you will face the same
>> issues in any  system. It only takes a very simple calculation in edit
>> privileges to accomplish.
> 
> uh... I use XML and a little array. when record is accessed, the arrays
> (hum... actually is not an array, it's a queue) is checked, if the
> record is in the arrays, this meaning it's being edited right now, then
> it cannot be accessed, if it's not in the array, then it's unlocked.
> This is done before any DB connection function. It works fine. what do
> you think?

There is nothing that prevents you from using that approach with Filemaker
also if you want to; or you could use the easier native record locking
options.  

I don't quite understand how you lock a record without knowing what record
you're locking. You say you can lock a record or determine its lock status
without a DB connection. How does that work? How do you perform a query
without performing a query?

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Re: Database Experience

[Rick Harrison]

And you do?
I don't think you have to be insulting if you want to disagree, or you 
have
anything positive to add.  Why do you think people are starting to not
ask their important questions on this list?  Its a bad trend.

MySQL does? I don't think so.
Someone told me MySQL handled it, I'm open to the suggestion that
the information may be incorrect.  That's why I was asking the question.
Many people have been trying to move away from FileMaker Pro to MySQL
because of these issues and multi-threaded issues.  A decent database
should handle these things without the programmer having to re-invent
with his/her own schemes.
If you want to build a custom record locking
solution for web transactions, you can do it and you will face the same
issues in any  system. It only takes a very simple calculation in edit
privileges to accomplish.
Would you like to be more specific and helpful?  What version of
FileMaker Pro are you referring to?  I'm not using the latest version.
FileMaker Pro needs to convince me with some major web improvements
that it is worth the price to upgrade.  So far I'm unconvinced.
If you have experience with version 7 I'd be interested in hearing 
about it.

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Re: Database Experience

[Brian Yennie]

Someone told me MySQL handled it, I'm open to the suggestion that
the information may be incorrect.  That's why I was asking the 
question.

Many people have been trying to move away from FileMaker Pro to MySQL
because of these issues and multi-threaded issues.  A decent database
should handle these things without the programmer having to re-invent
with his/her own schemes.
I don't believe MySQL has any built-in record locking functionality- 
that's the bad news. The good news is that even if it did, it would be 
about the same amount of work in the simple case.

Suppose you were to write a front-end in Revolution, and had no control 
over the back-end (other than that it was a MySQL server sitting 
somewhere).

All you would need to do would be to create extra fields in your MySQL 
database, something like:

RECORD_LOCKS
lockedBy: yennieb
lockTime: 278236472
Whenever you queried for the record, you could as part of your query 
check whether it is already locked by someone else. I don't know if SQL 
if useful to you at this point, but you would be able to do something 
like:

SELECT * FROM mytable WHERE (recID = 37) AND (lockedBy <> yennieb) AND 
(lockTime >= XXX)

IOW, check to see if the record in question is locked by someone other 
than you, and within the allowable stale time.

Every time someone wanted to edit a record, you would check for an 
existing entry in the table to see if a different user had locked the 
record within a certain amount of time.

If not, create the lock by filling out those fields.

When the user saves changes, remove any locks they have. So long as 
they are actively using your front-end, you can refresh the lock. 
Otherwise it goes stale and someone else can get it. You could also 
quickly release all of the locks for a single user with something like:

UPDATE mytable SET lockedBy = '', lockTime = 0 WHERE lockedBy = 
'yennieb'

There are a few gotchas- for example, what happens if a user locks a 
record, walks away for too long, loses their lock, and _then_ tries to 
save changes. But no built-in database feature solves this for you.

On the other hand, if you were willing to also write a backend in Rev 
(i.e. a CGI or a Rev app that sits on the server), you could solve 
record locking lots of different ways outside of the database, even 
just keep a global variable with locks recorded in it.

Hope this helps- if you take this route with Rev and MySQL, I'm sure 
the list will be able to help with much of this when the needs are more 
specific. Some of it may seem overwhelming if you are seeing SQL for 
the first time, etc- but as a piece of the transition, record locking 
really sounds worse than it (usually) is in practice.

- Brian

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Re: Database Experience

[Bruce Robertson]

>> And you do?
> 
> I don't think you have to be insulting if you want to disagree, or you
> have anything positive to add.  Why do you think people are starting
> to not ask their important questions on this list?  Its a bad trend.

Is it a better trend to not understand a product or technology and yet claim
that it is inadequate? You didn't ask a question. You made a proclmation.
You stated that Filemaker can't do something that has been a prominent part
of their advertised feature set for several years.

> Many people have been trying to move away from FileMaker Pro to MySQL
> because of these issues and multi-threaded issues.  A decent database
> should handle these things without the programmer having to re-invent
> with his/her own schemes.

Various hand-crafted MySQL record locking schemes are discussed in most
MySQL books.

>> If you want to build a custom record locking
>> solution for web transactions, you can do it and you will face the same
>> issues in any  system. It only takes a very simple calculation in edit
>> privileges to accomplish.
> 
> Would you like to be more specific and helpful?  What version of
> FileMaker Pro are you referring to?

Record-level create, edit, browse, and delete features were introduced with
Filemaker 5.5. I believe that was in 2001. These features are controlled by
a calculation; and that calculation can be pretty much anything you want.

> I'm not using the latest version.
> FileMaker Pro needs to convince me with some major web improvements
> that it is worth the price to upgrade.  So far I'm unconvinced.
> If you have experience with version 7 I'd be interested in hearing
> about it.

Filemaker 7 is an approximately equivalent technical change to the switch
from MacOS 9 to OS X. This a massive technology change, and even people who
participated in the beta program have concluded that will probably take a
year before anybody fully understands all the power we've been given. I'm
pretty good with Filemaker, and I participate in several of the Filemaker
forums, and even the most highly skilled people are saying holy , what
have we got here!

High performance multithreaded server. 8TB max file size. 2GB  max content
in a single text field of a single record. BLOB support. ODBC/JDBC SQL
add/drop/create etc support. Multiple tables per file - max 1 million, as a
matter of fact. Industrial strength security. Robust instant web publishing.
Much improved relational model including multiple field pairs and different
types of join operators: equal, not equal, GT, LT, etc. $150 updgrade from
any previous version. Data/interface separation if you want to build that
way. It is still a product clearly in the FileMaker line and of course some
people will find things they don't like and will still elect to use other
products. But it's a whole new ball game, and I don't think anybody really
understands the implications yet.

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Re: Database Experience

[j]

Various hand-crafted MySQL record locking schemes are discussed in most
MySQL books.
(pssst.  the reason some people subscribe to lists like these is to 
avoid having to buy books.)

j.

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Re: Database Experience

[Rick Harrison]

I don't believe MySQL has any built-in record locking functionality- 
that's the bad news. The good news is that even if it did, it would be 
about the same amount of work in the simple case.

Suppose you were to write a front-end in Revolution, and had no 
control over the back-end (other than that it was a MySQL server 
sitting somewhere).

All you would need to do would be to create extra fields in your MySQL 
database, something like:

RECORD_LOCKS
lockedBy: yennieb
lockTime: 278236472

Brian,

Thanks for the specific answer.  I'm sure it is helpful to a lot of 
people
out there since this is a topic that usually isn't discussed much.

Thanks again!

Rick Harrison

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Re: Database Experience

[Rick Harrison]

On Mar 23, 2004, at 11:15 AM, Bruce Robertson wrote:

This is very useful information, thank you for sharing it with us.

What happened to the "Unlimited Version"?
Server feature are now strictly in Server, and there are 2 versions. 
Server
7 and Server 7 Advanced. Advanced has the web publishing 
capbabilities. It
will be $2499. Regular server will be $999. Look for details and 
Filemaker's
web site. The Server products will be available around June. There are
substantial discounts available now. I believe you can get a Server 7
advanced license now for $999 and get Advanced when it arrives, plus 
you get
the client version right now. But I'm not an FMI sales person - see 
their
web site for details.


Thanks!  (Gulp, $2499 huh.)

Rick Harrison

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Re: Database Experience

[Andre Garzia]

On Mar 23, 2004, at 1:43 AM, Bruce Robertson wrote:

There is nothing that prevents you from using that approach with 
Filemaker
also if you want to; or you could use the easier native record locking
options.

I don't quite understand how you lock a record without knowing what 
record
you're locking. You say you can lock a record or determine its lock 
status
without a DB connection. How does that work? How do you perform a query
without performing a query?
Ops... allow me to explain, I use this on a simple software where I 
know beforehand what the records are. No need to a SELECT call. This 
sofware is using the DB as a filesystem-like database. My XML tells 
everything about the DB... I know people might be thinking, so why the 
hell he is using a DB... it's like this MySQL is accessed remotelly to 
store JPEG files and weblog comments, each one is assigned an ID, this 
ID is stored locally on client XML for this will not change, it's 
faster than using SELECT all time...

I think you might understand me better now..

Cheers

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Andre Alves Garzia  2004  BRAZIL
http://studio.soapdog.org
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Re: Database Experience

[Andre Garzia]

On Mar 23, 2004, at 11:59 AM, Rick Harrison wrote:

All you would need to do would be to create extra fields in your 
MySQL database, something like:

RECORD_LOCKS
lockedBy: yennieb
lockTime: 278236472
damnn... and I never thought of that... we could make a stack to handle 
this automatically...

Cheers




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Andre Alves Garzia - Soap Dog Studios - BRAZIL
http://studios.soapdog.org
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Revolution, PDAs and Data exchange. (was Re: Database Experience)

[Andre Garzia]

On Mar 16, 2004, at 2:57 AM, John Tenny wrote:

And what's been the experience with importing data from PDAs into Rev, 
in some database format? How y'all doin' that?

John

Thats tricky depends on the plataform... but you could play like 
this, is you PDA connected to the internet and able to use HTTP for 
fetching and playing with Web pages? If so you can use 
ServerWorkz/revHTTPd ( http://home.soapdog.org:8081/ ) for it can 
transport automatically between html forms and  rev stacks, or you can 
use LibCGI if you don't want to launch a custom HTTPd

If you don't want to use web pages, you might still use revHTTPd and/or 
LibCGI for the dirty work by arranging PDA data as XML and POSTing it 
to a running server on the desktop. This would be easier with revHTTPd 
for it's a self contained solution, LibCGI requires a running HTTP 
server like apache.

By using appForge (http://www.appforge.com) you can quickly create 
PalmOS/PocketPC apps that do understand about HTTP so syncing is easy 
as long as you have a network connection.

For hotsync connection I don't know any info, but it hotsync can be 
used for internet sharing, than, we get back on business. If this 
thread is important, I can DEMO a PalmOS Custom app + Revolution 
Desktop App solution. What do all think?

Cheers
Andre



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http://studios.soapdog.org
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Re: Revolution, PDAs and Data exchange. (was Re: Database Experience)

[John Tenny]

My need right now is not a server/shared DB, but just being able to 
sync data gathered at different times into a desktop DB so it can be 
searched, sorted, and printed. Windows/Mac and Palm/PocketPC

On Mar 15, 2004, at 10:27 PM, Andre Garzia wrote:

On Mar 16, 2004, at 2:57 AM, John Tenny wrote:

And what's been the experience with importing data from PDAs into 
Rev, in some database format? How y'all doin' that?

John

Thats tricky depends on the plataform... but you could play like 
this, is you PDA connected to the internet and able to use HTTP for 
fetching and playing with Web pages? If so you can use 
ServerWorkz/revHTTPd ( http://home.soapdog.org:8081/ ) for it can 
transport automatically between html forms and  rev stacks, or you can 
use LibCGI if you don't want to launch a custom HTTPd

If you don't want to use web pages, you might still use revHTTPd 
and/or LibCGI for the dirty work by arranging PDA data as XML and 
POSTing it to a running server on the desktop. This would be easier 
with revHTTPd for it's a self contained solution, LibCGI requires a 
running HTTP server like apache.

By using appForge (http://www.appforge.com) you can quickly create 
PalmOS/PocketPC apps that do understand about HTTP so syncing is easy 
as long as you have a network connection.

For hotsync connection I don't know any info, but it hotsync can be 
used for internet sharing, than, we get back on business. If this 
thread is important, I can DEMO a PalmOS Custom app + Revolution 
Desktop App solution. What do all think?

Cheers
Andre



--
Andre Alves Garzia - Soap Dog Studios - BRAZIL
http://studios.soapdog.org
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Peace,

   John

John L. Tenny, Ph.D.
Flowing Thought Educational Solutions
eCOVE: The Observation Toolkit Software
www.flowing-thought.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
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