Re: Develop on Windows or Mac

[Richard Gaskin]

Wolfgang M.Bereuter wrote:

> 
> On 06.11.2003, at 01:23, Alex Rice wrote:
> 
>> On thing I'm not sure about: must the OS X build be separate, because
>> it has a whole new binary format? Or is the PPC build "Carbonized" so
>> it can run on OS X and Mac OS?
> 
> It seems carbonized but I saw some features not working in a fat build
> opened in OS X. But this could depend on the releases of the
> Distribution builder.
> Imho I would build it for OSX to be on the safe side...

Absolutely.  Carbon is a patch for transition only, and the OS' supporting
API remains incomplete and will likely never be fixed given Apple's strong
push to kill OS 9 ASAP.

Among other nuances are path issues:  paths are very different in OS X and
OS 9, yet when running in the Classic layer the OS/Rev returns OS X-style
paths. :(

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac

[Wolfgang M . Bereuter]

On 06.11.2003, at 01:23, Alex Rice wrote:

On thing I'm not sure about: must the OS X build be separate, because 
it has a whole new binary format? Or is the PPC build "Carbonized" so 
it can run on OS X and Mac OS?
It seems carbonized but I saw some features not working in a fat build 
opened in OS X. But this could depend on the releases of the 
Distribution builder.
Imho I would build it for OSX to be on the safe side...

regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Learn easy with trainingsmaps©
INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Roger . E . Eller]

On 11/06/2003, at 05:23 AM jbv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I have a question : who needs to put 10,000 files in a single folder ?
> I might be wrong, but to me it sounds like a "perverted approach" of 
graphic
> interfaces...
> ...
> The point I want to make is that putting 10,000 files in a single folder 
is
> pointless (unless the content of this folder is read/written by an app 
only).
> 
> If end users have to open that folder, then the content should be split 
in
> several subfolders for more clarity and readibility.
> And therefore, I don't really care if the OS I'm using will take 10 
minutes
> to open a folder containing 10,000 files, simply because I'll never try 
to
> open it.

JB,

The slowness of the Aqua interface (even in Panther) when dealing with 
greater
than 10,000 files is exactly why we had to develop a Rev app to manage the
files. We opted to use unix shell commands behind the scenes, and still 
provide
the users with a GUI (a fast one). Basically it is a mini-Finder, and the 
users
love it. In a corporate environment, with both users and database apps 
needing
to access files programmatically, sometimes the single folder approach is
necessary (but not preferred). My point is that if we can fix the problem 
with
Rev and shell scripts, Apple should be able to do a little better job.

>> Another - Rev specific speed test. Write a repeat loop to create about 
200
>> Rev objects on a card. Distribute them all over the card. Make it a mix 
of
>> buttons and fields, and a few imported small gif files. Now, using the
>> selection tool, select all of the elements by dragging around them. How
>> long does it take for the selections to catch-up with what you 
selected.
>> Do the same on a PC. OK... Any Questions?
>>
> 
> Yes, I have another question : if you can create a repeat loop to create 
200
> objects, why can't you use a script to select them ?
> IOW, why do you go the easy way to create a problem and then go the hard
> way to solve it ?

What I meant is (for testing) YOU could create the objects "the easy way" 
so
that you can experience the problem. I created the objects manually in the
development of a real project. The target audience was Mac and PC users. 
We
did most of the development on OS X, and as the project became more 
complex
and contained more objects it became extremely sluggish. When we moved the 
app
to the PC for fine-tuning, the speed difference was overwhelmingly fast. 
Both
the Mac and the PC are modern machines well equipped with RAM/HD/CPU.

> 
> Thanks,
> JB

Roger Eller
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[xbury . cs]

Windows-key+F, type name, , double click...

Is that one or two steps less?

But the open/save file dialogs and shortcuts in windows SUCK truely!

Wasn't the subject about runrev?

;))

-=-
Xavier Bury
TNS NT LAN Server
ext 6465




jbv <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/11/03 14:11
Please respond to How to use Revolution

 
To: How to use Revolution <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: 
Subject:        Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

.


Just one more detail :

On Mac, move (or duplicate) a file on the desktop
(to retrieve it easier).
Then check the location of that file : you'll probably
find it at the higher level of your HD, which is logical.

Now do the same in Windows XP...

Did anyone say "productivity" ?

JB

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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[jbv]

Just one more detail :

On Mac, move (or duplicate) a file on the desktop
(to retrieve it easier).
Then check the location of that file : you'll probably
find it at the higher level of your HD, which is logical.

Now do the same in Windows XP...

Did anyone say "productivity" ?

JB

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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[xbury . cs]

On 06/11/2003 13:02:11 use-revolution-bounces wrote:
>> Roger,
>>
>> Be cool with flamebait...
>
>No flamebait of course, only questions...
>
None taken! ;)) 
>>
>> Here at work, we have more than one folder with THOUSANDS of files for 
our
>> business, DBA, SAN, backups reporting among others...
>> In a 3TB fileserver you need something that can handle oh-so-many 
files!
>
>Yes, but as I wrote :
>"The point I want to make is that putting 10,000 files in a single folder 
is
>pointless (unless the content of this folder is read/written by an app 
only)."
>
>Again, I see the need for apps like DBAs to store thousands of files in a
>single directory, as long as data needs to be retrieved ONLY by the app
>(furthermore, I don't see why using sub-directories would slow down
>the retrieve/process/save data in a significant way).

Going deeper doesn't slow you down although it takes longuer to navigate.
Also sometimes the long path of a file may exceed the OS's capacity so 
there
are arguments where you need to do this.

>And if the amount of data is that huge, there must be various high-level 
scripts
>& front-ends to help manage all those files...

Not always. Depends on programmer's lazyness... I've also seen users 
folders
with 4000 files. The reason they dont notice is because when the use the 
folder they
only browse it with excell or word and all other files are filtered out by 
default. 

>That's why I still don't understand why individuals should have to 
struggle
>with windows displaying thousands of files...

I dont see why either... But remember that 80% of the problems in tech 
support are
situated between the chair and the keyboard !!! (the other 19% are in MS 
tech support!)

>May be just another example of "programmer lazyness" ?

it's not just programmers... Programmer unless pressed by time usually try 
to do a 
good job AFAIK... Exceptions granted!

Why does a company spend a million on something completely useless and 
still
can't see the use of spending 10,000 in something truely practical? I live 
this everyday!

It must be a matter of ignorance somewhere...
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[jbv]

> Roger,
>
> Be cool with flamebait...

No flamebait of course, only questions...

>
>
> Here at work, we have more than one folder with THOUSANDS of files for our
>
> business, DBA, SAN, backups reporting among others...
>
> In a 3TB fileserver you need something that can handle oh-so-many files!

Yes, but as I wrote :
"The point I want to make is that putting 10,000 files in a single folder is
pointless (unless the content of this folder is read/written by an app only)."

Again, I see the need for apps like DBAs to store thousands of files in a
single directory, as long as data needs to be retrieved ONLY by the app
(furthermore, I don't see why using sub-directories would slow down
the retrieve/process/save data in a significant way).
And if the amount of data is that huge, there must be various high-level scripts
& front-ends to help manage all those files...
That's why I still don't understand why individuals should have to struggle
with windows displaying thousands of files...

May be just another example of "programmer lazyness" ?

Again, no flame war... just asking...

JB


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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Graham Samuel]

I need to deploy my apps on Mac (pre- and post-OSX) and on PC. I also 
work in two locations, with the most suitable (fastest, etc) 
development machine being a Mac in one location and a PC in the 
other. So I have to keep switching development platforms even within 
a project - I just cut a CD on the machine I'm using and take it to 
the other location. Frankly I am amazed at how easy this is - I can't 
say I have ever had a significant problem arising just from switching 
development platforms. AFAIK only RunRev offers this - and they've 
made an excellent job of it.

OTOH I find I absolutely **have to** do my late testing on each 
deployment platform - you can't really debug an AppleEvent handler on 
a Windows box, for example, and the font and font size problems 
others have mentioned often seem to call for hand tweaking on the 
deployment system. Then there's the menu bar issue: RunRev's built-in 
method of hiding the Windows-style menu bar by cutting off the top of 
a window is not appropriate in some cases (for example when you're 
desperate to use every pixel of height - happens when the user 
demands a VGA screen size - yes, some still do!), and I've also had 
to tinker with the Registry (thanks to advice from this list) in 
order to make sure a window fills the screen but doesn't overfill it. 
Et cetera. I really don't see how one could produce an industrial 
strength app on any platform without at least some testing and indeed 
debugging on that actual platform.

Graham
--
---
 Graham Samuel / The Living Fossil Co. / UK & France
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac

[Sannyasin Sivakatirswami]

Having worked in print media for over 30 years, we tend to find over 
and over again that "grey areas" are often areas that are simply 
undocumented, which which have, on investigation, fairly precise 
parameters. e.g. "the top border should be exactly 24 points wide and 
sit on the 5 baseline from the top trim edge of the page with baseline 
set to 10 points, first baseline set to 0. In the absence of 
documentation the newbie is just left with "use an old master page"... 
and often flounders. I am currently starting to document stuff more and 
more.

Point: I wonder if these differences between Rev stacks on platforms 
can be given any precise definition? And documented? or is it really 
total quicksand?

We also develop on OSX and would never work on a Windows machine. So,  
can "field sizes too small on Classic 9.0" can be given a definition?

e.g. "a 12 point font in a button that is 14 pixels tall, centered 
vertically on a Mac will fall two points lower on a PC, the solution is 
to set the text height of the button on windows to 14 (or whatever) 
(which is not a legal property of a text button any more, but I used to 
do it...) or, simply make all your buttons 16 pixels tall if you are 
using 12 point fonts.. on the PC the label will sit a bit lower but 
still have a good  bottom margin."

Or, are the continuous OS upgrades and subsequent changes/breakages 
created by the OS engineers going to make any documentation for appears 
on any platform obsolete in six months?

In any case, were someone who did a lot of Mac/Windows deployment and 
tweaking, to document what they do in more specific and "minute" terms 
(with the disclaimer that only God knows if it will be true when 
Panther become Lynx or Windows XP becomes Windows ZX)

That could be extremely useful to the everyone.  Right now I just tend 
to give fields and buttons on the Mac a lot of breathing room and it 
seems to appear OK on the PC... i.e. its a fishing expedition each 
time... ;-)

Sannyasin Sivakatirswami
Himalayan Academy Publications
at Kauai's Hindu Monastery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.HimalayanAcademy.com,
www.HinduismToday.com
www.Gurudeva.org
www.Hindu.org
On Nov 5, 2003, at 1:47 PM, Thomas Cole wrote:

I'm working on my first big project with Revolution and I'm using OSX 
to develop in. I want the software to run on any mac and any windows 
machine. It's working surprisingly well. Revolution is a great piece 
of software.

My experience so far -- as limited as it is -- is different from what 
I am reading here. I have found that the Mac classic standalones need 
much more tweaking than the PC ones. Fields are too small mostly -- or 
the fonts get too big or whatever. I'm surprised at this because 
coming from HyperCard I remember how perfectly the stacks would run on 
any Mac with no field size problems of any kind. Yet the PC 
standalones are more faithful to the OSX development view with regard 
to font size -- although the fonts are spidery sometimes and not as 
nice as on a Mac. Any tips for keeping things the same on all 
platforms?

I'm rather a neophyte and I don't even know which standalone for Mac 
to distribute or what the difference is: Fat. PPC. or 68. (I'll 
certainly want to distribute the OSX version.) If someone could set me 
straight on this, I'd be grateful.

TOM
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Ken Norris]

Well, I only have one thing to say on this thread.

I will need to produce apps for Windows with Rev on my Mac; I like Rev's
ability to do cross-platform builds. I expect problems from time to time,
but that's part of what this list is for, and I appreciate the skills of
those working in Windows.

However, don't bother trying to evangelize me to try to work in the Windows
platform, it just ain't gonna happen.

Ken N.

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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac

[Alex Rice]

On Nov 5, 2003, at 4:47 PM, Thomas Cole wrote:
I'm rather a neophyte and I don't even know which standalone for Mac 
to distribute or what the difference is: Fat. PPC. or 68. (I'll 
certainly want to distribute the OSX version.) If someone could set me 
straight on this, I'd be grateful.
That is weird the Windows builds look better than your Mac builds :-)

The 68K vs. PPC refers to the Mac CPU architectures. See 
 68K is older Macs, and PPC is 
newer Macs. FAT is an application file that has both the 68K and PPC 
code in it. It will be bigger, but run on more Macs. So you can either 
have 1 larger app with FAT, or two smaller apps with 68K and PPC.

On thing I'm not sure about: must the OS X build be separate, because 
it has a whole new binary format? Or is the PPC build "Carbonized" so 
it can run on OS X and Mac OS?

Alex Rice, Software Developer
Architectural Research Consultants, Inc.

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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac

[Thomas Cole]

I'm working on my first big project with Revolution and I'm using OSX to develop in. I 
want the software to run on any mac and any windows machine. It's working surprisingly 
well. Revolution is a great piece of software.

My experience so far -- as limited as it is -- is different from what I am reading 
here. I have found that the Mac classic standalones need much more tweaking than the 
PC ones. Fields are too small mostly -- or the fonts get too big or whatever. I'm 
surprised at this because coming from HyperCard I remember how perfectly the stacks 
would run on any Mac with no field size problems of any kind. Yet the PC standalones 
are more faithful to the OSX development view with regard to font size -- although the 
fonts are spidery sometimes and not as nice as on a Mac. Any tips for keeping things 
the same on all platforms?

I'm rather a neophyte and I don't even know which standalone for Mac to distribute or 
what the difference is: Fat. PPC. or 68. (I'll certainly want to distribute the OSX 
version.) If someone could set me straight on this, I'd be grateful.

TOM 
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Sarah]

Hi Paul,

I develop entirely using Mac OS X, but mostly FOR Macs (OS X & OS 9). I 
have built a couple of apps for Windows and apart from the look & feel 
which you just have to check on a Windows machine, the only problem I 
have had was due to using Mac-only characters in scripts.

For me, this was primarily the not-equals sign (option-equals on a Mac 
keyboard), but less-than-or-equal-to and greater-than-or-equal-to 
(option < and option >) will also fail when running under Windows. I am 
now trying to re-train myself to use the longer versions as a built app 
gives no error messages and it can be very puzzling to work out why a 
script just totally fails to run.

As regards the type of license you should get, I would recommend one 
Studio and one Enterprise. Then you can develop on both platforms but 
do the final build using Studio on your main platform, so avoiding the 
"Made with Revolution" message on shutdown.

Cheers,
Sarah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.troz.net/Rev/
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Roger . E . Eller]

> On Nov 5, 2003, at 10:43 AM, Scott Rossi wrote:
> 
>> On 11/5/03 9:33 AM, "Alex Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> someone's manner of productivity can be different.
>>
>> Excellent point.  So let's not start a "my  is
>> better than
>> your " thread.
> 
> Yeah! I was getting a little defensive in my response and I apologize,
> all.
> 
> 
> Alex Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | Mindlube Software |
> 

Alex,

My computer is better than yours.  ;-)

~Roger

P.S. In 1986 I was a proud Amiga owner. I know exactly how you feel.
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Alex Rice]

On Nov 5, 2003, at 10:43 AM, Scott Rossi wrote:

On 11/5/03 9:33 AM, "Alex Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

someone's manner of productivity can be different.
Excellent point.  So let's not start a "my  is 
better than
your " thread.
Yeah! I was getting a little defensive in my response and I apologize, 
all.

Alex Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | Mindlube Software | 


what a waste of thumbs that are opposable
to make machines that are disposable  -Ani DiFranco
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Alex Rice]

On Nov 5, 2003, at 10:33 AM, Alex Rice wrote:

Yes, the Mac OS Finder truly was slow from 10.2 - 10.2.8.
Oops, obviously Finder sucked from 10.0 public beta -> 10.2.8, although 
did get better along the way before being rewritten for 10.3

Alex Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | Mindlube Software | 


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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Scott Rossi]

On 11/5/03 9:33 AM, "Alex Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> someone's manner of productivity can be different.

Excellent point.  So let's not start a "my  is better than
your " thread.

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com

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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Alex Rice]

On Nov 5, 2003, at 9:17 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

More productive, and faster?
Oh come on. Step acting incredulous that someone's manner of 
productivity can be different.

I'm way, way, way! more productive on OS X than on my Windows 2000 
machine. There are many aspects to productivity. For your line of work, 
you are faster in Windows, and that's fine for you.  For a 3 year old 
OS, Mac OS X *kicks butt*. Especially 10.3. For a long time I used a 
G4/350 and G/466 with Mac OS X instead of a Pentium 600 with Windows 
2000 that was right there on my desktop. The Windows machine was faster 
for certain tasks, but overall that wasn't the biggest factor in my 
productivity.

A lot of advances are coming from Apple. Rendezvous, Expose, XCode, 
Darwin, and promoting open-source utilities like Apache, Samba, SSH, 
and X Windows. Microsoft is touting all this 
Aero-rendering-compositing-display system they are releasing in 
Longhorn in 2005. Well guess what? OS X has that _today_.

 I work in a mixed environment of PC's and
Mac's, and that is not the situation here at all. On OS X, put about
10,000 files of any kind into a folder (write a repeat loop to create 
them
as a test), then open the folder in the finder. Put a stop-watch on 
that
pretty colorful spinning ball. Do the same on a Windows PC... the 
folder
will open with all files listed in about 2 seconds.
Yes, the Mac OS Finder truly was slow from 10.2 - 10.2.8. In 10.3 it's 
totally rewritten and is much faster. Nonetheless the old finder never 
did cause me major grief.

But I don't often have 10,000 files in a folder. If I ever did, I would 
probably drop to the Unix shell, which Windows does not have 
thank-you-very-much, and use a command like mv, cp, ditto, etc.

Another - Rev specific speed test. Write a repeat loop to create about 
200
Rev objects on a card. Distribute them all over the card. Make it a 
mix of
buttons and fields, and a few imported small gif files. Now, using the
selection tool, select all of the elements by dragging around them. How
long does it take for the selections to catch-up with what you 
selected.
Do the same on a PC. OK... Any Questions?
Were you running the Rev look and feel: OS X appearance manager for 
this test?  I usually run Rev in Mac OS emulated L&f, because it is 
faster.

If you were in appearance manager l&f, you were dragging 200 Aqua 
eye-candy gum drops being rendered by the OS. Appearance Manager has 
the luxury of handing off rendering to the OS to get it's widgets 
drawn.

On a G3 or an older G4, without a graphics card supporting Quartz 
Extreme, that's going to be slow. On a G4 you'll benefit from Altivec. 
With a newer graphics card, it's faster still because it will use the 
OpenGL hardware on your card.

The basic rule of thumb is: to make OS X fast, you can't just run some 
old low-end iMac or powerbook. You need throw $ at the problem and give 
it > 500MB RAM and a new graphics card that supports Quartz Extreme.

BTW wonder how a G5 would do in your tests? The world's third largest 
supercomputer is now the G5 cluster (off-the-shelf G5s bought from the 
Apple store) at the University of Virginia 


Alex Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | Mindlube Software | 


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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Rick Harrison]

More productive, and faster? I work in a mixed environment of PC's and
Mac's, and that is not the situation here at all. On OS X, put about
10,000 files of any kind into a folder (write a repeat loop to create 
them
as a test), then open the folder in the finder. Put a stop-watch on 
that
pretty colorful spinning ball. Do the same on a Windows PC... the 
folder
will open with all files listed in about 2 seconds.

Another - Rev specific speed test. Write a repeat loop to create about 
200
Rev objects on a card. Distribute them all over the card. Make it a 
mix of
buttons and fields, and a few imported small gif files. Now, using the
selection tool, select all of the elements by dragging around them. How
long does it take for the selections to catch-up with what you 
selected.
Do the same on a PC. OK... Any Questions?

Roger Eller

Roger,

Are you using Panther yet?  If not, what version of OS X are you using?

Rick

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RE: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Chipp Walters]

A very interesting thread topic.

I develop on Windows for Windows. I've tried developing on a Mac and things
just didn't seem to work as well, though in fairness to RR, I was using
1.1.1 at the time on a System 9 machine. It crashed much more than Windows.

Ray mentions garbage collection and crashing alot on Windows. Hmmm. I've
developed quite a few projects the last few years. One of them an Enterprise
Content Management System - no crashes here. Though in fairness to Ray, I
seldom ever store large amounts of data 'in the stack'. I use stacks as
application interfaces, not data containers-- a lesson I learned a long time
ago with SuperCard. I rarely have more than two cards per stack. The first
with interfaces and groups which hide and show if necessary. The second with
all the images used as icons for buttons on the first. If I need to store
data I'll either store it: 1) on a server; 2) separate small stacks; 3)
images and XML.

The big differences IMHO between the two platforms are: 1) Look and Feel; 2)
OS specific components and; 3) Performance.

Look and Feel - I've built my own tools (www.buttongadget.com) to modify the
look and feel of RR to create cross-platform GUI's. I'd recommend also
changing the textfont of the stack to Tahoma. I like using Tahoma 11 for a
lot of the text. If you're building Apps, good interface choices are smart
on BOTH platforms. I've seen bad looking interfaces on both.

OS specific components - On Windows, it's good advice to store stacks you
download or write to in specialFolderPath(35) because they have permission
to do so there, but may not have permission to do so in the Program Files
folder. Also, you may also wish to have icons for your application document
files which, when double-clicked, launch the application. You'll need to
edit the Windows registry for this. Ditto for registration codes and setting
mime types for launching from a browser. Also, you don't need the creator
code for Windows, just a file extension for your ask/answer file dialog
boxes. I'm sure there are many more, but these are the differences which
come to mind.

Performance - I've created apps which use math and run fine on Windows, but
too slow on Macs. Something to be aware of as you continue to develop on the
Mac for the PC.

Early on at Human Code, we tried developing on Macs and publishing on PCs.
Just too many 'gotchas.' By working day in and day out on the PC, you get
the 'feel' of the app on the OS and discover subtle areas which need
tweaking. This doubles as a good testing platform.

While starting out on the Mac may work, I'm betting you end up switching to
PC somewhere early in the process.

-Chipp


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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Roger . E . Eller]

> Paul,
> 
> I've developed projects for both machines.  You will be more
> productive, and faster on the Mac than
> in the Windows environment - fewer quirks, crashes, etc.  Then move
> your project over to the Windows
> environment to work out the bugs there for that operating system.
> 
> That's my 2 cents.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Rick Harrison

More productive, and faster? I work in a mixed environment of PC's and 
Mac's, and that is not the situation here at all. On OS X, put about 
10,000 files of any kind into a folder (write a repeat loop to create them 
as a test), then open the folder in the finder. Put a stop-watch on that 
pretty colorful spinning ball. Do the same on a Windows PC... the folder 
will open with all files listed in about 2 seconds.

Another - Rev specific speed test. Write a repeat loop to create about 200 
Rev objects on a card. Distribute them all over the card. Make it a mix of 
buttons and fields, and a few imported small gif files. Now, using the 
selection tool, select all of the elements by dragging around them. How 
long does it take for the selections to catch-up with what you selected. 
Do the same on a PC. OK... Any Questions?

Roger Eller
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Paul Stary]

Thank you all for your insights into this topic.

I found it all very useful and have made the decision to stay with 
the Mac for the majority of the development, incrementally checking 
my stacks on the PC. This means eventually purchasing two version of 
Studio.

When nearing completion, I will switch to the PC to adjust and test 
final font, appearance, and operational  issues. Then build on the PC.

This makes perfect sense to me now. Staying with the Mac will enable 
me to deal with the large graphic content in an environment I am 
comfortable with and will minimize the development pain. Having the 
PC to incrementally evaluate my progress will save lots of time on 
the back end.

Thanks again!
--
Paul Stary
Audio-Video Engineering
Voice Mail: (949) 646-8877
Fax: (949) 515-3640
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Rick Harrison]

On Nov 4, 2003, at 7:51 PM, Paul Stary wrote:

I have used Mac since 1984, but have developed some reasonable PC 
skills in the last 10 years. I still work on Mac for personal 
productivity, but find myself moving lots of my engineering stuff to 
PC just because that's the world view.

Since I am soon to have both a G4 1.25 GHz. (Dual Boot) w/1.5 GB RAM 
running OS 9.2.2 and a Pentium 4 2.66 GHz, 533 FSB, 1 GB RAM XP 
machines available to me for a massive Revolution development project, 
which one should I develop on?
...

Thanks.

Paul Stary

Paul,

I've developed projects for both machines.  You will be more 
productive, and faster on the Mac than
in the Windows environment - fewer quirks, crashes, etc.  Then move 
your project over to the Windows
environment to work out the bugs there for that operating system.

That's my 2 cents.

Good luck!

Rick Harrison

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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Mike Brown]

The Revolution team has done an excellent job of providing a truly
cross-platform development tool with very little differences!

I have developed Revolution applications on both a Mac G4 and Windows 2000 &
XP machines and have not run into any platform related bugs.  From my
experience, Revolution seems to run equally well on both Mac & Windows
machines.  I do not detect a performance difference or advantage relating to
the software.

Because I am more comfortable working from Mac OS X, I tend to do 90% of
development from the Mac, BUT when it comes time to distribute to a Windows
market, I always have to load my Rev Stack onto a Windows PC and do cosmetic
changes because the final stack or standalone does not display the same on
both operating systems.  Text fields, labels and other elements such as
buttons will shift position so alignment is off.  Also, background colors
that appear white or transparent from the Mac can display with a shaded
color on Windows until you go to the color palette and assign a color.

If you are building apps for a Windows audience and want to avoid this extra
step, you may choose to develop directly from Windows.  I choose to develop
on a Mac because I like all of the other Mac friendly design tools that I
use for the interface elements and I prefer the Mac OS X environment... So
for me, it is worth the extra steps at the end of the project to clean up
alignments from a Windows computer or using a Windows computer as a visual
reference.

Best,
Mike

Mike Brown
Cyber-NY Interactive
www.cyber-ny.com

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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Thomas J McGrath III]

On Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 09:43 PM, Ray Bennett wrote:

Hi Paul.  I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions on this one.

I've lived on Macs and Unix boxes for years and years.  We've 
developed, over the past year, a product that is cross platform - 
meaning
AND
I think you should spend most of your _development_ time on the 
platform on which your users will spend most of their _using_ time.
2 cents:
I have always gone by the philosophy that you should develop on the 
platform you are most comfortable with unless there are specific and 
necessary reasons not to.

Wether you are developing cross-platform or for just windows you still 
need to understand your intended output and any issues that will come 
from it regardless of which you decide to do the developing on. You 
should know before hand from testing and research if and what problems 
will affect your project.

Then you can weigh the speed gained from developing in your most 
comfortable environment and the time needed in correcting on the 
intended platform.

If your project is heavy in the problem areas then go for the Win 
platform if not go for the Mac since you are more comfortable with it.

Test early, Test often. Save always.

Thomas J McGrath III
Advanced Media Group
220 Drake Rd.
Bethel Park, PA 15102
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[xbury . cs]

You may also expect font alignment problems and some innevitable pixel 
offsets
between both GUIs...


-=-
Xavier Bury



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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Alex Rice]

On Nov 4, 2003, at 5:51 PM, Paul Stary wrote:

Which will machine will run Revolution faster? (I'm guessing the PC as 
much as it pains me to say)
The Rev IDE is fast in general, so both machines are plenty powerful. 
The only areas where you will see a noticeable speed differences may be 
startup, find/replace, and distribution builder.

The project will ultimately run on Windows, so isn't there an 
advantage in developing on a Windows machine?
Yes - ditto what Ray said.

Any input will be greatly appreciated, as I don't want to spend the 
extra money for Enterprise for the option when I wind up never running 
the development environment on both machines. Does it make sense to 
consider buying both Mac and Windows versions of Studio ($598) vs. the 
$999 Enterprise if I never plan to develop on other OS's?
Seems like you should be using the Windows IDE.

The Mac IDEs do have the advantage of being able to build standalones 
for Mac OS Classic FAT and PPC targets. The Windows IDE can build for 
Mac OS X but not the Classic Mac targets.

Alex Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | Mindlube Software | 


what a waste of thumbs that are opposable
to make machines that are disposable  -Ani DiFranco
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Alex Rice]

On Nov 4, 2003, at 7:43 PM, Ray Bennett wrote:

* Some VERY critical functionality is NOT well-behaved on Windows.  
Specifically, you can't rely on memory management to work the way 
you'd expect.   The inability of Windows (or the rev engine on 
windows) to perform garbage collection of what has been paged and or 
swapped will, when you least expect it, crash your built application 
(and occasionally even the IDE) hard.
This sounds like a hell of a bug. I was just looking through your old 
posts to the list and I don't see anything narrowing it down to garbage 
collection and memory swapping. Is it in bugzilla and/or have you got 
help from runrev tracking this down?

Alex Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | Mindlube Software | 


what a waste of thumbs that are opposable
to make machines that are disposable  -Ani DiFranco
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Re: Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Ray Bennett]

Hi Paul.  I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions on this one.

I've lived on Macs and Unix boxes for years and years.  We've 
developed, over the past year, a product that is cross platform - 
meaning that it has a market that requires Mac and PC support.  Alas, 
the Mac will likely account for less than 10% of our shipments.

I developed for the first several months on a Mac (Powerbook G3/400 
with a second head).  What I've found to be true is this:
* Nearly everything you develop on the Mac that looks pretty darned 
nice will disappoint you when viewed on Windows  (even if you used the 
Windows emulator to preview things).  Windows only has a few good fonts 
on the screen, and then only at hi-res.  The disconnect between what 
you see and what you print is impossible to understand until you 
experience it.  We Mac weenies just got way to used to getting what we 
expected.
* Some VERY critical functionality is NOT well-behaved on Windows.  
Specifically, you can't rely on memory management to work the way you'd 
expect.   The inability of Windows (or the rev engine on windows) to 
perform garbage collection of what has been paged and or swapped will, 
when you least expect it, crash your built application (and 
occasionally even the IDE) hard.  If you've developed exclusively on a 
Mac, you're not nearly as likely to experience these crashes (I went 
happily along for 4 months without ever seeing a crash - I went 20 
minutes on a PC before I crashed).   If you spend your development time 
on the Windows machine, you develop a better sense of where the trouble 
spots are and know to either plan on finding a work around, or thinking 
differently about how you design something.   (aside:  from my 
experience, the trouble spots are printing, cloning, rapidly changing 
cards or rapidly growing stacks)
* Because Mac interfaces "intuit" so much better than PCs (again, this 
is opinion), you can mistakenly develop a metaphor that is not familiar 
or intuitive to PC users.   If you're developing on the Windows 
machine, you tend to understand why the user of your application may 
just say "huh?".   This refers, especially, to clicking close boxes and 
positioning Cancels and OKs and Applys
* Printing - how its set up, how its presented, and how it actually 
works, has a lot of Jekyll and Hyde in it.  It is clearly one of those 
areas that justifies the use of what the Revolution team calls a 
"profile".

I could go on, but I guess I said all of that to say this:
I think you should spend most of your _development_ time on the 
platform on which your users will spend most of their _using_ time.

Otherwise, you have a separation from their experience which doesn't 
help you or them.   And touching up interfaces you developed on a PC to 
look good (they always work) on a Mac is much easier than the converse.

God bless Apple.  Long live the Revolution.

Ray

On Tuesday, November 4, 2003, at 07:51 PM, Paul Stary wrote:

I have used Mac since 1984, but have developed some reasonable PC 
skills in the last 10 years. I still work on Mac for personal 
productivity, but find myself moving lots of my engineering stuff to 
PC just because that's the world view.

Since I am soon to have both a G4 1.25 GHz. (Dual Boot) w/1.5 GB RAM 
running OS 9.2.2 and a Pentium 4 2.66 GHz, 533 FSB, 1 GB RAM XP 
machines available to me for a massive Revolution development project, 
which one should I develop on?

For instance, is Rev 2.1 any more or less stable on Mac or Windows? 
Are features more or less accessible on one platform vs. the other? 
Which will machine will run Revolution faster? (I'm guessing the PC as 
much as it pains me to say)

The project will ultimately run on Windows, so isn't there an 
advantage in developing on a Windows machine?

Any input will be greatly appreciated, as I don't want to spend the 
extra money for Enterprise for the option when I wind up never running 
the development environment on both machines. Does it make sense to 
consider buying both Mac and Windows versions of Studio ($598) vs. the 
$999 Enterprise if I never plan to develop on other OS's?

Thanks.
--
Paul Stary
Audio-Video Engineering
Voice Mail: (949) 646-8877
Fax: (949) 515-3640
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Develop on Windows or Mac?

[Paul Stary]

I have used Mac since 1984, but have developed some reasonable PC 
skills in the last 10 years. I still work on Mac for personal 
productivity, but find myself moving lots of my engineering stuff to 
PC just because that's the world view.

Since I am soon to have both a G4 1.25 GHz. (Dual Boot) w/1.5 GB RAM 
running OS 9.2.2 and a Pentium 4 2.66 GHz, 533 FSB, 1 GB RAM XP 
machines available to me for a massive Revolution development 
project, which one should I develop on?

For instance, is Rev 2.1 any more or less stable on Mac or Windows? 
Are features more or less accessible on one platform vs. the other? 
Which will machine will run Revolution faster? (I'm guessing the PC 
as much as it pains me to say)

The project will ultimately run on Windows, so isn't there an 
advantage in developing on a Windows machine?

Any input will be greatly appreciated, as I don't want to spend the 
extra money for Enterprise for the option when I wind up never 
running the development environment on both machines. Does it make 
sense to consider buying both Mac and Windows versions of Studio 
($598) vs. the $999 Enterprise if I never plan to develop on other 
OS's?

Thanks.
--
Paul Stary
Audio-Video Engineering
Voice Mail: (949) 646-8877
Fax: (949) 515-3640
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