subject:"How exactly does runrev for ipad\/iphone work\?"

Hello Chipp, Richard, Randall, ... Sorry Tom,
I'm sorry to revive the debate, but, for me, everything is not clear...
I make a supposition — unfortunaly it is a supposition :-( 
I am an expert with RevTalk and Objective C.
I make a tool that allows me to write a project with RevTalk language. I use 
Interface Builder to create the interface.
I click a magic button and all my work turns into a perfect Objective C code.
I enter my new Objective C code (copy and paste) in Cocoa Xcode on my Macintosh 
and I start construct the application as if I type all with my little hands...
How Apple can prove that I used the language RevTalk to prototype my code ?
Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract), 
yes, but where are the proof ?
If I act in this way, I don't see where is there problem...
René

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Thierry D.


Le 7 mai 2010 à 11:15, René Micout a écrit :

 
 Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract), 
 yes, but where are the proof ?
 If I act in this way, I don't see where is there problem...
 René


Bonjour René,

Then, in your next reincarnation,
you will be a vulture, eating only rotten food :)

Cordialement,
Thierry

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Objective C = rotten food ?

Le 7 mai 2010 à 11:34, Thierry D. a écrit :

 
 Le 7 mai 2010 à 11:15, René Micout a écrit :
 
 
 Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract), 
 yes, but where are the proof ?
 If I act in this way, I don't see where is there problem...
 René
 
 
 Bonjour René,
 
 Then, in your next reincarnation,
 you will be a vulture, eating only rotten food :)
 
 Cordialement,
 Thierry
 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Jerry Daniels

I thought it might have been a French thing, but we're not allowed to talk 
about cheese.

GRIN

Best,

Jerry Daniels

Use tRev's buy link during your free trial to get 20% off:
http://reveditor.com/tag/shouldiswitch

On May 7, 2010, at 5:52 AM, René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com wrote:

 Objective C = rotten food ?
 
 Le 7 mai 2010 à 11:34, Thierry D. a écrit :
 
 
 Le 7 mai 2010 à 11:15, René Micout a écrit :
 
 
 Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract), 
 yes, but where are the proof ?
 If I act in this way, I don't see where is there problem...
 René
 
 
 Bonjour René,
 
 Then, in your next reincarnation,
 you will be a vulture, eating only rotten food :)
 
 Cordialement,
 Thierry
 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Cheese + snail + frog !!!
For french people = :-)
For others = :-(

Le 7 mai 2010 à 13:05, Jerry Daniels a écrit :

 I thought it might have been a French thing, but we're not allowed to talk 
 about cheese.
 
 GRIN
 
 Best,
 
 Jerry Daniels
 
 Use tRev's buy link during your free trial to get 20% off:
 http://reveditor.com/tag/shouldiswitch
 
 On May 7, 2010, at 5:52 AM, René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com wrote:
 
 Objective C = rotten food ?
 
 Le 7 mai 2010 à 11:34, Thierry D. a écrit :
 
 
 Le 7 mai 2010 à 11:15, René Micout a écrit :
 
 
 Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards 
 contract), yes, but where are the proof ?
 If I act in this way, I don't see where is there problem...
 René
 
 
 Bonjour René,
 
 Then, in your next reincarnation,
 you will be a vulture, eating only rotten food :)
 
 Cordialement,
 Thierry
 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread jonathandlynch

Hi Rene, are you concerned that there may be an ethical issue with doing that?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com
Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:15:34 
To: How to use Revolutionuse-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Hello Chipp, Richard, Randall, ... Sorry Tom,
I'm sorry to revive the debate, but, for me, everything is not clear...
I make a supposition — unfortunaly it is a supposition :-( 
I am an expert with RevTalk and Objective C.
I make a tool that allows me to write a project with RevTalk language. I use 
Interface Builder to create the interface.
I click a magic button and all my work turns into a perfect Objective C code.
I enter my new Objective C code (copy and paste) in Cocoa Xcode on my Macintosh 
and I start construct the application as if I type all with my little hands...
How Apple can prove that I used the language RevTalk to prototype my code ?
Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract), 
yes, but where are the proof ?
If I act in this way, I don't see where is there problem...
René

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Robert Mann

Man.. let us read...

3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++,
or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and
only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and
directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications
that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation
or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).

Let's start reading ... A few definitions :

API's - is an interface implemented by a software program which enables it
to interact with other software (same language or foreign languages).

PLease note that the 3.3.1 DOES NOT state documented API by Apple!! and
refers to PRiVATE APIs.
Litterally speaking PUBLIC APIs like google maps etc.. do not fall in!!

There are some feras expressed that an expanded interpretation of this
clause would embrace all forms of organized libraires writen in C or C++
that could be incorporated by a programmer to better structure his program.
I cannot see how this interpretation can hold. As well as I cannot
understand the fuss about ORIGINALLY WRITTEN in c.. because this is
unenforceable legally...

I guess that Originally written in Steve's mind means in that context
hand written, not just output by a machine...

But, from a legal point of view nobody can restrain the way you think, work,
produce your code. Steve cannot forbid the use of any form or helping tool,
3rd party documentation, copying/pasting of functions from here or there, or
software robot, intermediate layer, provided it delivers some x code :
nobody can restrain this freedom.

The copyright law protects only the materialization of ideas, never the
ideas themselves, nor the processes, not the methods. And programming has
been clearly associated to writing. So nobody (even Stevie..) can (LEGALLY -
ei enforceable in court) dictate how the hell you produce your damned x Code
libraries.

So I support the argument that the only way that originally written in c
can be interpreted is at some stage materially visible and editable in C or
C++ in the XCode environment whatever steps have occured before, as these
prior steps are immaterial.

The limit would be if for instance revMobile produced X Code in two parts :
a) the actual stack application code and b) alongside a set of home made
runrev librarires writen in C or C++ that would be neccessary, part A)
calling part b). My conviction is that even in that situation, a legal
action by Apple would not succeed on the ground of 3.3.1.

But I guess anyhow Apple has a full discretionnary power to allow apps or
not in their APP store, SO FAR, so yes they could easily tell your app uses
a set of runrev libraries we de not like.. It is likely you use runrev as a
production tool and we do not like it.. be bye! Or tell you nothing, just
NO!

But I cannot see them as plain evil, just like that. They seem to have
plans for the future and have reasons to enforce the c++ or c and Xcode
compiler. But they do not seem to have any interest to go further than that.

SO personnaly, as a member of the mobile rev alpha program I would not throw
my coin at Kevin if he announced such a direction to be taken, with or
without steve's consent, if there is a possibility technically.

In practice though, I'm getting ready to byte at xcode straight from the
box, this summer, because, I do not want to wait infinitely until we have
the perfect tool and I would also welcome Kevin if he told us that he just
stopped the revMObile iphone program with a compensation for early buyers.
It might well be the most reasonnable course to take.

I would welcome a correlative annoucemet to focus BACK on ON-REV to produce
an actual alternative to PHP, with .irev stacks that would allow selling
libraries and developping this market, on which runrev could really shine...
and where runrev would stand clear of Steve's fears..

I appreciate and supported the mobile rev venture, but I really ask Kevin
and runrev as a whole in the interest of all parties to cover for the secure
grounds before going to battle in a new adverse territory.

-- I am deceived with the ON-REV stand still situation making it impossible
(unless using old CGI) to install on-rev on 3rd parties servers and market
private libraires. And it seems much more within reach to me than
re-engeeneering revMobile, that can still be used for vertical professionnal
apps not sold in the AppStore.

-- I really suffered with the AUDIO ( I mean the lack of audio libraires, in
runrev..) I found solutions but quicktime lib + lame lib but could not
complete project due to lack of basic mix libraries (fade in out, simple
mixin transition). So anyway.. solution seems to go Xcode direct..

Hugh!

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View this message in context:
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/How-exactly-does-runrev-for-ipad-iphone-work

Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

No.
When I responds to some posts, my English is too poor, and I use a translation 
application.
My views may seem clumsy, but are not dishonest...
In the computer's world using English is necessary but not obligatory. I think 
in French even when I speak English (I'd like to think in English, but...), I 
claim the right to think RevTalk while writing in Objective C. Where is the 
ethical problem ?
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:29, jonathandly...@gmail.com a écrit :

 Hi Rene, are you concerned that there may be an ethical issue with doing that?
 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
 
 -Original Message-
 From: René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com
 Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:15:34 
 To: How to use Revolutionuse-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
 
 Hello Chipp, Richard, Randall, ... Sorry Tom,
 I'm sorry to revive the debate, but, for me, everything is not clear...
 I make a supposition — unfortunaly it is a supposition :-( 
 I am an expert with RevTalk and Objective C.
 I make a tool that allows me to write a project with RevTalk language. I use 
 Interface Builder to create the interface.
 I click a magic button and all my work turns into a perfect Objective C 
 code.
 I enter my new Objective C code (copy and paste) in Cocoa Xcode on my 
 Macintosh and I start construct the application as if I type all with my 
 little hands...
 How Apple can prove that I used the language RevTalk to prototype my code ?
 Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract), 
 yes, but where are the proof ?
 If I act in this way, I don't see where is there problem...
 René
 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Richard Gaskin


René Micout wrote:

 Hello Chipp, Richard, Randall, ... Sorry Tom,
 I'm sorry to revive the debate, but, for me, everything is
 not clear...

I hope this becomes less of a debate and simply a healthy, sober 
discussion of business decisions.  If we maintain a professional tone I 
think many aspects of this thread can be very valuable.


 I make a supposition — unfortunaly it is a supposition :-(
 I am an expert with RevTalk and Objective C.
 I make a tool that allows me to write a project with RevTalk
 language. I use Interface Builder to create the interface.
 I click a magic button and all my work turns into a perfect
 Objective C code.
 I enter my new Objective C code (copy and paste) in Cocoa Xcode on
 my Macintosh and I start construct the application as if I type
 all with my little hands...
 How Apple can prove that I used the language RevTalk to prototype
 my code ?
 Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards
 contract), yes, but where are the proof ?
 If I act in this way, I don't see where is there problem...

The fact that you acknowledge in advance that it may be a violation -- 
and have done so in writing in a public forum g -- should be enough to 
question the practice.


I'm no lawyer, but the world's discussion of this issue seems to make it 
clear that Apple is firm on the code provenance issue, that you cannot 
use another language to generate C/C++/Objective-C, but instead the app 
must be originally written in such a language.


The terms of the license make such a violation punishable under criminal 
law.


If the Gizmodo case is any indicator, you could expect a SWAT team to 
arrest you and confiscate your computers.


Even if you ultimately prevail in such a case, or if some class-action 
or FTC suit later forces Apple to reconsider their unusual stance on 
this, in the meantime you would be in jail awaiting trial and that would 
destroy your business.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Thank you Hugh !
I agree and particulary the end of your post about Audio
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:21, Robert Mann a écrit :

 -- I really suffered with the AUDIO ( I mean the lack of audio libraires, in
 runrev..) I found solutions but quicktime lib + lame lib

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread jonathandlynch

The potential problem would be in violating a contract you signed - I say 
potential because I do not know all the nuances of this situation.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com
Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 14:33:10 
To: How to use Revolutionuse-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

No.
When I responds to some posts, my English is too poor, and I use a translation 
application.
My views may seem clumsy, but are not dishonest...
In the computer's world using English is necessary but not obligatory. I think 
in French even when I speak English (I'd like to think in English, but...), I 
claim the right to think RevTalk while writing in Objective C. Where is the 
ethical problem ?
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:29, jonathandly...@gmail.com a écrit :

 Hi Rene, are you concerned that there may be an ethical issue with doing that?
 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

 -Original Message-
 From: René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com
 Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:15:34 
 To: How to use Revolutionuse-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

 Hello Chipp, Richard, Randall, ... Sorry Tom,
 I'm sorry to revive the debate, but, for me, everything is not clear...
 I make a supposition — unfortunaly it is a supposition :-( 
 I am an expert with RevTalk and Objective C.
 I make a tool that allows me to write a project with RevTalk language. I use 
 Interface Builder to create the interface.
 I click a magic button and all my work turns into a perfect Objective C 
 code.
 I enter my new Objective C code (copy and paste) in Cocoa Xcode on my 
 Macintosh and I start construct the application as if I type all with my 
 little hands...
 How Apple can prove that I used the language RevTalk to prototype my code ?
 Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract), 
 yes, but where are the proof ?
 If I act in this way, I don't see where is there problem...
 René

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

But I respect the contract : I think in RevTalk (it is my private life) and I 
write in Objective C and I compile my Objective C code on (in ?) Xcode...
I don't understand where is the violation...

Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:58, jonathandly...@gmail.com a écrit :

 The potential problem would be in violating a contract you signed - I say 
 potential because I do not know all the nuances of this situation.
 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

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How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Kurt Kaufman

Again, who would bet on making an end-run around a moving target, especially if 
that target bites so fiercely to protect its perceived 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Timothy Bleiler

Maybe it's time for a new Rev-Mobile list? It is a different product  
after all. Just a thought.



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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Jonathan Lynch

Well, René, the violation would be whatever violation you were referring to
when you said:

Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract),
yes, but where are the proof ?

J
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 8:51 AM, René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.comwrote:

 But I respect the contract : I think in RevTalk (it is my private life) and
 I write in Objective C and I compile my Objective C code on (in ?)
 Xcode...
 I don't understand where is the violation...

 Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:58, jonathandly...@gmail.com a écrit :

  The potential problem would be in violating a contract you signed - I say
 potential because I do not know all the nuances of this situation.
  Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Yes,
But I read (now) all the § 3. Your obligations of the iPhone SDK license.
It is not easy, all is in English juridic language (I don't find the French 
license...  Does it exist ? If not in France [loi Toubon] the litigious terms 
of the contract are considered invalid... But is not the subject)
When I red this part of the license I can say if not using Objective C, C, 
C++ is a violation of the license.
I never read something like that after a quick read...
But it is necessary to read scrupulously to carry on...
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 15:15, Jonathan Lynch a écrit :

 Well, René, the violation would be whatever violation you were referring to
 when you said:
 
 Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards contract),
 yes, but where are the proof ?
 
 J
 On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 8:51 AM, René Micout 
 rene.mic...@numericable.comwrote:
 
 But I respect the contract : I think in RevTalk (it is my private life) and
 I write in Objective C and I compile my Objective C code on (in ?)
 Xcode...
 I don't understand where is the violation...
 
 Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:58, jonathandly...@gmail.com a écrit :
 
 The potential problem would be in violating a contract you signed - I say
 potential because I do not know all the nuances of this situation.
 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
 
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 Do all things with love
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Jonathan Lynch

I think that is in the new license agreement - 4.0

I don't want to add any more to the large quantity of postings on this
topic, so I will stop now. My only parting advice would be to listen to your
conscience and try to do the right thing. I do wish that Steve Jobs would
not have put so many people into this position, but trying to find legal
maneuvers to sneak around the letter of the development agreement will not
end well for anyone, including RunRev and its community of developers.

Best of luck to you,

J

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 9:27 AM, René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.comwrote:

 Yes,
 But I read (now) all the § 3. Your obligations of the iPhone SDK license.
 It is not easy, all is in English juridic language (I don't find the French
 license...  Does it exist ? If not in France [loi Toubon] the litigious
 terms of the contract are considered invalid... But is not the subject)
 When I red this part of the license I can say if not using Objective C, C,
 C++ is a violation of the license.
 I never read something like that after a quick read...
 But it is necessary to read scrupulously to carry on...
 René

 Le 7 mai 2010 à 15:15, Jonathan Lynch a écrit :

  Well, René, the violation would be whatever violation you were referring
 to
  when you said:
 
  Am I in this case in violation of § 3.3.1 ? In absolute (towards
 contract),
  yes, but where are the proof ?
 
  J
  On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 8:51 AM, René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com
 wrote:
 
  But I respect the contract : I think in RevTalk (it is my private life)
 and
  I write in Objective C and I compile my Objective C code on (in ?)
  Xcode...
  I don't understand where is the violation...
 
  Le 7 mai 2010 à 14:58, jonathandly...@gmail.com a écrit :
 
  The potential problem would be in violating a contract you signed - I
 say
  potential because I do not know all the nuances of this situation.
  Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
 
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-- 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Robert Mann

Just.. one more word!

I happen to have a legal background, my initial idea long time ago was to
set up legal expert systems.. (yes I love lawyers!!). Eventhough lots of
things are purely contractual in the US, there still remains the general
principle in our modern states, that a contract cannot overide some higher
rules, like the bill of right in the US which stands clear at the
constitutional level.

In the Gizmodo case... there was a clear breach of standard laws : it is
straight illegal to buy out a stolen good.. full point. Some guy at some
point has been really dumb and pretentious to rely on the freedom of press
protection. In that case the freedom or press is an inferior right to the
right of ownership.

In our 3.3.1 case, there would be abolutely no reasonable reason for a judge
to grant Apple the power to check how the hell your Xcode was written except
if...
-- they have proof you jailed a 10 years old genius that you exploit... that
would be illegal.
I think it lies in article 7 oh human rights... (nobody can interfere with
your life unless there is a good reason and to do so..)

Writing, managing, your xCode librairies in tText (thanks JD) IS NOT
ILLEGAL. Same if you use plugins to auto-update code, or auto generate full
or part of it... this is not illegal. If Apple say so, even if you have
signed, but if you refuse anybody from Apple to come at your home and check,
the judge will have to decide. And your attorneys will object that there is
no reson to authorize this as it would be an unreasonable infringment of
your fundamental freedom...

And... any provision in an Apple contract saying that this use of a runrev
app somwhere in the line could be challenged at court in view of the yet non
existing, but implied, freedom of thinking clause in the bill of right..
man shall we have to vote that one in

In France many contracts are OVERULED by laws that dictacte what clauses
are valid or invalid ab initio, whatever you sign... and this 3.3.1 clause
would not stand a chance in France and Europe.

From a technical point of view there cannot be any violation of right..
where there are no rights! And apple just has not the right to decide how
you think... and has no right to forbid you to copy and paste xcode from a
published source of code that allows it, however generic and not original
it is... There are limits to how far in your life a contract can reach.

Nevertheless, I'm in sympathy with Steve Jobs concern to control the quality
of pieces of software that run on apples machines... !!!

again the good news is that if flash gets bitten, there maybe be more
opportunities for revWeb plugin and for ON-REV technologie to expand...
don't yu think?

--
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Colin Holgate


On May 7, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Robert Mann wrote:

 In the Gizmodo case... there was a clear breach of standard laws : it is
 straight illegal to buy out a stolen good.. full point. 


The story they are sticking to is that Gizmodo paid the guy the money to 
guarantee exclusivity, and with the intention of returning the iPhone to the 
owner after looking at it. So that's not quite the same as buying a stolen 
device.



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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

I agree with all your post...
It is exactly what I think even part about Steve Jobs
Bon souvenir de Paris
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 16:05, Robert Mann a écrit :

Just.. one more word!

In France many contracts are OVERULED by laws that dictacte what clauses
are valid or invalid ab initio, whatever you sign... and this 3.3.1 clause
would not stand a chance in France and Europe.

Nevertheless, I'm in sympathy with Steve Jobs concern to control the quality
of pieces of software that run on apples machines... !!!

again the good news is that if flash gets bitten, there maybe be more
opportunities for revWeb plugin and for ON-REV technologie to expand...
don't yu think?

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

See Rodeo :
http://rodeoapps.com/
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Peter Alcibiades

Rene, you are asking the wrong question probably. Suppose you find some way
to bypass the technical legal wording of the restriction. It is not going
to help. You are dealing with a policy which is backed up by the power of
Apple to reject any app, or any developer, for any, or for no, reason.

So, find a way around it legally, use it, then get caught due to some coding
change in the tools that you should be using, in their view, which leaves a
signature, which your app now does not have, and you get banned. So your
investment is up in smoke.

It is not going to work. As long as Apple has the mechanism of the App
store, and control over the tools that it wants used, it can lay traps. And
remember, Apple does not care how many false positives it generates. It
just tells you to go away, and you're out.

The smart thing to do is respect their policy. As Richard says, that is
unfortunately going to mean the policy that is in effect at this particular
hour and day. If it changes tomorrow, well, get ready to respect that one
too.

This is what causes, and is maybe designed to cause, the pinch for small
businesses. Either you are in the camp, and you follow the rules, and you
become sort of part of an Apple extended family, and you put in all the
effort it takes to keep up, or you are out.

I know organic farmers in the UK who refuse to supply supermarkets. Yes,
they can sell a lot of stuff to them. But they don't want to be owned by
one. So they take lower margins and greater uncertainty and sell through a
variety of channels. In the end, they feel, its safer and more sustainable
than having the markets always make you offers you cannot refuse.

Jerry may be right, joining Apple may be the profitable choice. I don't
know. But what's clear is, if you are going to be in, you have to play by
the rules. There is no way around this one, as long as the App Store is the
bottleneck.
--
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Bob Sneidar

I just think that I would rather have an iPhone that is reliable and secure, 
than one I cannot be sure about because I downloaded something that is buggy or 
has a hidden exploit. What if in the initial stages of the iPhone, people were 
writing apps helter skelter that were unstable? How many support calls would 
Apple have gotten? What kind of bad rap would Apple have gotten for their 
unstable insecure mobile device? I can see the headlines: Apple's iPhone 
just like the rest! Will the iPhone be just another Windows Update nightmare?

I think if that had been the case, people would be complaining much more 
loudly, only their complaint would have been, Apple has the resources. They 
should have been able to do something about this mess! Well they did do 
something about it right out of the gate. Consider how many more sales of these 
custom apps made by small developers happened, because the weight of Apple's 
quality control was behind it? People freely purchase and download apps without 
any fear at all about stability and security BECAUSE of Apple's app store 
model. How much more profitable have developers been because of that 
confidence? 

In the past people only purchased from established developers and vendors (and 
paid good money for it too) because that was their way of ensuring stability 
and security in what they got. Apple has provided a way that a simple toad like 
me, who has a good idea for an app can either bless the world with my genius, 
or else make a little cash on the side. 

Everything is give and take. You give up convenience for security and 
stability. That is the bargain to be struck. For those who don't like it, don't 
make the bargain. And haven't we always had rules to play by? The difference 
here is that the rules are strictly enforced, and IMHO rightly so, because a 
mobile computing device that is also a phone that also has bluetooth and 
wireless could be conceivably be turned into a traveling pandemic infecting 
every computer it could exploit. 

And as far as the Flash thing, personally I am happy our children cannot easily 
view porn at will on their iPhones. It's the old tradeoff again, but this time 
it's a bit of freedom for security. 

Bob


On May 7, 2010, at 9:06 AM, Peter Alcibiades wrote:

 Jerry may be right, joining Apple may be the profitable choice.  I don't
 know.  But what's clear is, if you are going to be in, you have to play by
 the rules.  There is no way around this one, as long as the App Store is the
 bottleneck.

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Chipp Walters

Bob,

I'm not so sure about the whole AppStore will keep you safe all the time 
thing. Consider this poor schlep who download iDisplay from the AppStore and it 
ended up wiping out his computer:
http://justanotheripadblog.com/ipad-app-reviews/quick-look-idisplay-for-ipad

Just one case out of many.

And I really hope you aren't serious about your kids not being able to access 
porn from your iPhone. Steve was disingenuous when he commented, if you want 
to use porn, get an Android, You or your kids can access porn from your iPhone 
just like the rest of the world, through the browser. I have know idea what 
you're referring to by mentioning Flash in conjunction to porn. Flash is not 
porn.

Chipp Walters
CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc

On May 7, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Bob Sneidar b...@twft.com wrote:

 I just think that I would rather have an iPhone that is reliable and secure, 
 than one I cannot be sure about because I downloaded something that is buggy 
 or has a hidden exploit. What if in the initial stages of the iPhone, people 
 were writing apps helter skelter that were unstable? How many support calls 
 would Apple have gotten? What kind of bad rap would Apple have gotten for 
 their unstable insecure mobile device? I can see the headlines: Apple's 
 iPhone just like the rest! Will the iPhone be just another Windows Update 
 nightmare?
 
 I think if that had been the case, people would be complaining much more 
 loudly, only their complaint would have been, Apple has the resources. They 
 should have been able to do something about this mess! Well they did do 
 something about it right out of the gate. Consider how many more sales of 
 these custom apps made by small developers happened, because the weight of 
 Apple's quality control was behind it? People freely purchase and download 
 apps without any fear at all about stability and security BECAUSE of Apple's 
 app store model. How much more profitable have developers been because of 
 that confidence? 
 
 In the past people only purchased from established developers and vendors 
 (and paid good money for it too) because that was their way of ensuring 
 stability and security in what they got. Apple has provided a way that a 
 simple toad like me, who has a good idea for an app can either bless the 
 world with my genius, or else make a little cash on the side. 
 
 Everything is give and take. You give up convenience for security and 
 stability. That is the bargain to be struck. For those who don't like it, 
 don't make the bargain. And haven't we always had rules to play by? The 
 difference here is that the rules are strictly enforced, and IMHO rightly so, 
 because a mobile computing device that is also a phone that also has 
 bluetooth and wireless could be conceivably be turned into a traveling 
 pandemic infecting every computer it could exploit. 
 
 And as far as the Flash thing, personally I am happy our children cannot 
 easily view porn at will on their iPhones. It's the old tradeoff again, but 
 this time it's a bit of freedom for security. 
 
 Bob
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Peter,
Yes, I understand for all developpers who want to distribute inside the
AppStore.
It is not my case... I said that few weeks ago. I create tools for me, and I
want create tools on iPad witch is, I think, a fabulous thing... I understand
also that RunRev don't invest only for people like me, we are not numerous
enough...
This is my problem... or not...
Bon souvenir de Paris
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 18:06, Peter Alcibiades a écrit :

Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

YES !

Le 7 mai 2010 à 18:27, Bob Sneidar a écrit :

 I just think that I would rather have an iPhone that is reliable and secure, 
 than one I cannot be sure about because I downloaded something that is buggy 
 or has a hidden exploit. What if in the initial stages of the iPhone, people 
 were writing apps helter skelter that were unstable? How many support calls 
 would Apple have gotten? What kind of bad rap would Apple have gotten for 
 their unstable insecure mobile device? I can see the headlines: Apple's 
 iPhone just like the rest! Will the iPhone be just another Windows Update 
 nightmare?
 
 I think if that had been the case, people would be complaining much more 
 loudly, only their complaint would have been, Apple has the resources. They 
 should have been able to do something about this mess! Well they did do 
 something about it right out of the gate. Consider how many more sales of 
 these custom apps made by small developers happened, because the weight of 
 Apple's quality control was behind it? People freely purchase and download 
 apps without any fear at all about stability and security BECAUSE of Apple's 
 app store model. How much more profitable have developers been because of 
 that confidence? 
 
 In the past people only purchased from established developers and vendors 
 (and paid good money for it too) because that was their way of ensuring 
 stability and security in what they got. Apple has provided a way that a 
 simple toad like me, who has a good idea for an app can either bless the 
 world with my genius, or else make a little cash on the side. 
 
 Everything is give and take. You give up convenience for security and 
 stability. That is the bargain to be struck. For those who don't like it, 
 don't make the bargain. And haven't we always had rules to play by? The 
 difference here is that the rules are strictly enforced, and IMHO rightly so, 
 because a mobile computing device that is also a phone that also has 
 bluetooth and wireless could be conceivably be turned into a traveling 
 pandemic infecting every computer it could exploit. 
 
 And as far as the Flash thing, personally I am happy our children cannot 
 easily view porn at will on their iPhones. It's the old tradeoff again, but 
 this time it's a bit of freedom for security. 
 
 Bob
 
 
 On May 7, 2010, at 9:06 AM, Peter Alcibiades wrote:
 
 Jerry may be right, joining Apple may be the profitable choice.  I don't
 know.  But what's clear is, if you are going to be in, you have to play by
 the rules.  There is no way around this one, as long as the App Store is the
 bottleneck.
 
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Thank you robert.

Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and technical 
feasibility of rev outputting C source.

Lets start with the fact that the best compilers are written for C.  That these 
compilers are industry standards and that it could be argued, the epicenter of 
computing.

I think xtalk is a more human environment for the writing of logic, and that C 
is that same thing for computers them selves.

A match made in heaven!  Create in rev, test, prototype, deploy in casual 
situations, and then when everything is ready for the big leagues (or when 
nothing else is possible) export C source (customized as per target platform).

At this point, pay runrev what their efforts are worth... A lot!  Enter into an 
equity sharing contract or pay a big publishing fee.  Everyone is happy.

Randall 

-Original Message-
From: Robert Mann r...@free.fr
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 5:21 AM
To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?


Man.. let us read... 

3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
   prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
   Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++,
   or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and
   only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and
   directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications
   that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation
   or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).

Let's start reading ... A few definitions : 

API's - is an interface implemented by a software program which enables it
to interact with other software (same language or foreign languages).

PLease note that the 3.3.1 DOES NOT state documented API by Apple!! and
refers to PRiVATE APIs.
Litterally speaking PUBLIC APIs like google maps etc.. do not fall in!! 

There are some feras expressed that an expanded interpretation of this
clause would embrace all forms of organized libraires writen in C or C++
that could be incorporated by a programmer to better structure his program.
I cannot see how this interpretation can hold. As well as I cannot
understand the fuss about ORIGINALLY WRITTEN in c.. because this is
unenforceable legally...

I guess that Originally written in Steve's mind means in that context
hand written, not just output by a machine...

But, from a legal point of view nobody can restrain the way you think, work,
produce your code. Steve cannot forbid the use of any form or helping tool,
3rd party documentation, copying/pasting of functions from here or there, or
software robot, intermediate layer, provided it delivers some x code :
nobody can restrain this freedom.

The copyright law protects only the materialization of ideas, never the
ideas themselves, nor the processes, not the methods. And programming has
been clearly associated to writing. So nobody (even Stevie..) can (LEGALLY -
ei enforceable in court) dictate how the hell you produce your damned x Code
libraries. 

So I  support the argument that the only way that originally written in c
can be interpreted is at some stage materially visible and editable in C or
C++ in the XCode environment whatever steps have occured before, as these
prior steps are immaterial.

The limit would be if for instance revMobile produced X Code in two parts :
a) the actual stack application code and b) alongside a set of home made
runrev librarires writen in C or C++ that would be neccessary, part A)
calling part b). My conviction is that even in that situation, a legal
action by Apple would not succeed on the ground of 3.3.1. 

But I guess anyhow Apple has a full discretionnary power to allow apps or
not in their APP store, SO FAR, so yes they could easily tell your app uses
a set of runrev libraries we de not like.. It is likely you use runrev as a
production tool and we do not like it.. be bye! Or tell you nothing, just
NO!

But I cannot see them as plain evil, just like that. They seem to have
plans for the future and have reasons to enforce the c++ or c and Xcode
compiler. But they do not seem to have any interest to go further than 
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

What about that, can apple control apps written for one's own use?  For limited 
in-house distribution and deployment?  What about free apps?  What about 
for-profit sales but with no need for the app store?

-Original Message-
From: René Micout rene.mic...@numericable.com
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 10:27 AM
To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Peter,
Yes, I understand for all developpers who want to distribute inside the 
AppStore.
It is not my case... I said that few weeks ago. I create tools for me, and I 
want create tools on iPad witch is, I think, a fabulous thing... I understand 
also that RunRev don't invest only for people like me, we are not numerous 
enough...
This is my problem... or not...
Bon souvenir de Paris
René

Le 7 mai 2010 à 18:06, Peter Alcibiades a écrit :

 Rene, you are asking the wrong question probably.  Suppose you find some way
 to bypass the technical legal wording of the restriction.  It is not going
 to help.  You are dealing with a policy which is backed up by the power of
 Apple to reject any app, or any developer, for any, or for no, reason.

 So, find a way around it legally, use it, then get caught due to some coding
 change in the tools that you should be using, in their view, which leaves a
 signature, which your app now does not have, and you get banned.  So your
 investment is up in smoke.

 It is not going to work.  As long as Apple has the mechanism of the App
 store, and control over the tools that it wants used, it can lay traps.  And
 remember, Apple does not care how many false positives it generates.  It
 just tells you to go away, and you're out.

 The smart thing to do is respect their policy.  As Richard says, that is
 unfortunately going to mean the policy that is in effect at this particular
 hour and day.  If it changes tomorrow, well, get ready to respect that one
 too.

 This is what causes, and is maybe designed to cause, the pinch for small
 businesses.  Either you are in the camp, and you follow the rules, and you
 become sort of part of an Apple extended family, and you put in all the
 effort it takes to keep up, or you are out.

 I know organic farmers in the UK who refuse to supply supermarkets.  Yes,
 they can sell a lot of stuff to them.  But they don't want to be owned by
 one.  So they take lower margins and greater uncertainty and sell through a
 variety of channels.  In the end, they feel, its safer and more sustainable
 than having the markets always make you offers you cannot refuse.

 Jerry may be right, joining Apple may be the profitable choice.  I don't
 know.  But what's clear is, if you are going to be in, you have to play by
 the rules.  There is no way around this one, as long as the App Store is the
 bottleneck.
 -- 
 View this message in context: 
 http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/How-exactly-does-runrev-for-ipad-iphone-work-tp2133661p2134443.html
 Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread J. Landman Gay


Randall Lee Reetz wrote:

Thank you robert.

Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and
technical feasibility of rev outputting C source.


No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can 
do here.


--
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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Actually, there is a lot we ca do... I like many have felt isolated by my 
choices.  I chose xtalk because it is human.  That choice has its share of 
negative fallout.  So I am motivated to advocate a more open publishing option 
from xtalk to the world's devices and platforms.  At this stage of flux (apple 
induced) there is impetus and leeway to rethink the whole scheme.  I, as a 
consumer relish the chance to debate demand and options.  

-Original Message-
From: J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:46 AM
To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall Lee Reetz wrote:
 Thank you robert.
 
 Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and
 technical feasibility of rev outputting C source.

No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can 
do here.

-- 
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Matthias Rebbe

Randall!

Maybe, but please not on this list anymore until Runrevs  response on Monday.

Thank you very much!

Matthias

Am 07.05.2010 um 21:08 schrieb Randall Lee Reetz:

 Actually, there is a lot we ca do... I like many have felt isolated by my 
 choices.  I chose xtalk because it is human.  That choice has its share of 
 negative fallout.  So I am motivated to advocate a more open publishing 
 option from xtalk to the world's devices and platforms.  At this stage of 
 flux (apple induced) there is impetus and leeway to rethink the whole scheme. 
  I, as a consumer relish the chance to debate demand and options.  
 
 -Original Message-
 From: J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com
 Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:46 AM
 To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
 
 Randall Lee Reetz wrote:
 Thank you robert.
 
 Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and
 technical feasibility of rev outputting C source.
 
 No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can 
 do here.
 
 -- 
 Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
 HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Which of you are runrev stakeholders?  Cause the this discussion seems 
important.  To both the product and the market for runrev.

-Original Message-
From: Matthias Rebbe runrev260...@m-r-d.de
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 12:18 PM
To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall!

Maybe, but please not on this list anymore until Runrevs  response on Monday.

Thank you very much!

Matthias

Am 07.05.2010 um 21:08 schrieb Randall Lee Reetz:

 Actually, there is a lot we ca do... I like many have felt isolated by my 
 choices.  I chose xtalk because it is human.  That choice has its share of 
 negative fallout.  So I am motivated to advocate a more open publishing 
 option from xtalk to the world's devices and platforms.  At this stage of 
 flux (apple induced) there is impetus and leeway to rethink the whole scheme. 
  I, as a consumer relish the chance to debate demand and options.  

 -Original Message-
 From: J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com
 Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:46 AM
 To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

 Randall Lee Reetz wrote:
 Thank you robert.

 Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and
 technical feasibility of rev outputting C source.

 No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can 
 do here.

 -- 
 Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
 HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

When should we voice our opinions and desires, work through the issues facing 
this market... after runrev has announced its product architecture?  That seems 
a little Jobs-sonian and backwards.

-Original Message-
From: Matthias Rebbe runrev260...@m-r-d.de
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 12:18 PM
To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall!

Maybe, but please not on this list anymore until Runrevs  response on Monday.

Thank you very much!

Matthias

Am 07.05.2010 um 21:08 schrieb Randall Lee Reetz:

 Actually, there is a lot we ca do... I like many have felt isolated by my 
 choices.  I chose xtalk because it is human.  That choice has its share of 
 negative fallout.  So I am motivated to advocate a more open publishing 
 option from xtalk to the world's devices and platforms.  At this stage of 
 flux (apple induced) there is impetus and leeway to rethink the whole scheme. 
  I, as a consumer relish the chance to debate demand and options.  

 -Original Message-
 From: J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com
 Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:46 AM
 To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

 Randall Lee Reetz wrote:
 Thank you robert.

 Now anyone want to discuss the advantages, disadvantages, and
 technical feasibility of rev outputting C source.

 No. Let's just stop and wait for RR to respond. There's nothing we can 
 do here.

 -- 
 Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
 HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Bob Sneidar

The vast majority of ANY kind of video these days is flash or windows media. 
quicktime is small potatoes. So if you can't use flash or windows media, then 
the vast majority of porn will be unavailable. That's what I meant. I know if 
you try hard enough you can find porn on the iPhone. I guess what Steve Jobs is 
saying is, there is plenty of media on youtube, and typically if you can find 
it somewhere else, you can find it on youtube, so you are not missing much. And 
youtube does not allow porn, although some stuff gets through. 

Bob


On May 7, 2010, at 10:27 AM, Chipp Walters wrote:

 And I really hope you aren't serious about your kids not being able to access 
 porn from your iPhone. Steve was disingenuous when he commented, if you want 
 to use porn, get an Android, You or your kids can access porn from your 
 iPhone just like the rest of the world, through the browser. I have know idea 
 what you're referring to by mentioning Flash in conjunction to porn. Flash is 
 not porn.
 
 Chipp Walters
 CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-07 Thread Ian Wood



On 8 May 2010, at 00:12, Bob Sneidar wrote:

The vast majority of ANY kind of video these days is flash or  
windows media. quicktime is small potatoes.


Please don't make the standard mistake of thinking in terms of Flash  
v. h264. The vast majority of video is h264-encoded, whether that file  
is then shown in a Flash viewer, QT, HTML5 etc.


Ian
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How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic language 
how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products) works?  Does it use 
apple's blessed dev environment at any step in the process?  In what form are 
the final builds?  Does it require a player app to be installed on each devise? 
 In short, how does runrev for mobile differ architecturally from the fully 
blessed apple environment and app format?

What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's previous plans 
for the revmobile product's base architecture and release protocols?

Randall Reetz___
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-06 Thread stephen barncard

That's trade secret stuff at REV, and current users are on an NDA so they
can't talk about it here. You could find out by buying the product.

On 6 May 2010 10:38, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote:

 Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic
 language how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products) works?
  Does it use apple's blessed dev environment at any step in the process?  In
 what form are the final builds?  Does it require a player app to be
 installed on each devise?  In short, how does runrev for mobile differ
 architecturally from the fully blessed apple environment and app format?

 What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's previous
 plans for the revmobile product's base architecture and release protocols?

 Randall Reetz___
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-- 
-
Stephen Barncard
Back home in SF
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Also, will the iphone, ipad specific properties and messages be available for 
standard stacks?

One of the things I have always wanted is a way to declare and parameterize 
custom messages.  Does Rev support this?  For instance, I would like to declare 
as a property of a property that any delta of a property (within range) to 
propagate a message.

set the propMessage of the width [of card graphic x] to true for larger 
[smaller, within, without] than (300) absolute [relative]

The above script would tell card graphic x to send a message every time its 
width was changed to a value greater than 300 pixels.  The message sent would 
be width_Message and would carry the new property value in the container it.

Randall


On May 6, 2010, at 10:38 AM, Randall Reetz wrote:

 Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic language 
 how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products) works?  Does it use 
 apple's blessed dev environment at any step in the process?  In what form are 
 the final builds?  Does it require a player app to be installed on each 
 devise?  In short, how does runrev for mobile differ architecturally from the 
 fully blessed apple environment and app format?
 
 What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's previous plans 
 for the revmobile product's base architecture and release protocols?
 
 Randall Reetz___
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-06 Thread Matthias Rebbe

Randall,

at http://lessons.runrev.com/spaces/lessons/buckets/1004

you find lessons about revMobile. There is also a lesson about how to create an 
app with the PreAlpha.
Maybe this answers your questions.

Regards,

Matthias


Am 06.05.2010 um 19:38 schrieb Randall Reetz:

 Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic language 
 how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products) works?  Does it use 
 apple's blessed dev environment at any step in the process?  In what form are 
 the final builds?  Does it require a player app to be installed on each 
 devise?  In short, how does runrev for mobile differ architecturally from the 
 fully blessed apple environment and app format?
 
 What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's previous plans 
 for the revmobile product's base architecture and release protocols?
 
 Randall Reetz___
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Wow.

So the only way for a potential customer to find out if the runrev mobile 
solution is likely to pass muster with Apple's new policy (to make an informed 
purchasing decision), is to purchase the program (and find out later)?  I 
question both the legality of that policy and the obvious and expected negative 
public relations and marketing outfall.

And you guys are complaining about Steve Jobs' autocratic and anti-consumer 
openness?


Randall Reetz


On May 6, 2010, at 10:44 AM, stephen barncard wrote:

 That's trade secret stuff at REV, and current users are on an NDA so they
 can't talk about it here. You could find out by buying the product.
 
 On 6 May 2010 10:38, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote:
 
 Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic
 language how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products) works?
 Does it use apple's blessed dev environment at any step in the process?  In
 what form are the final builds?  Does it require a player app to be
 installed on each devise?  In short, how does runrev for mobile differ
 architecturally from the fully blessed apple environment and app format?
 
 What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's previous
 plans for the revmobile product's base architecture and release protocols?
 
 Randall Reetz___
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 use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
 subscription preferences:
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 -- 
 -
 Stephen Barncard
 Back home in SF
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

An NDA was signed prior to all that
Apple-we-do-evil-but-it-is-beautiful-evil stuff.

It is not that people want to keep potential customers in the dark, it is
that so far the community does not know what is happening except for the
fact that RunRev team is in contact with Apple.

All we can say is that currently the way that Revolution Desktop works,
meaning, how the standalones are generated and how the engine works will not
work with Apple Agreement, so a change is needed on the engine. This is
information that is not related to the current fear from the 1.1.3 clause.
This is related to Apple preventing code compilation and execution at
runtime, this has be so since forever and RunRev was aware of it and
RevMobile will do things different than use a JIT compiler like it does now
on the Desktop.

So all in all, we can't tell you because we don't know.

If we knew we would not be able to tell but I believe that documentation
would be available.

Now, if someone in the community knows and I don't know, then, it is my
fault and and I am talking sh*t.

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.comwrote:

 Wow.

 So the only way for a potential customer to find out if the runrev mobile
 solution is likely to pass muster with Apple's new policy (to make an
 informed purchasing decision), is to purchase the program (and find out
 later)?  I question both the legality of that policy and the obvious and
 expected negative public relations and marketing outfall.

 And you guys are complaining about Steve Jobs' autocratic and anti-consumer
 openness?


 Randall Reetz


 On May 6, 2010, at 10:44 AM, stephen barncard wrote:

  That's trade secret stuff at REV, and current users are on an NDA so they
  can't talk about it here. You could find out by buying the product.
 
  On 6 May 2010 10:38, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote:
 
  Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic
  language how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products) works?
  Does it use apple's blessed dev environment at any step in the process?
  In
  what form are the final builds?  Does it require a player app to be
  installed on each devise?  In short, how does runrev for mobile differ
  architecturally from the fully blessed apple environment and app format?
 
  What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's previous
  plans for the revmobile product's base architecture and release
 protocols?
 
  Randall Reetz___
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  subscription preferences:
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  --
  -
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  Back home in SF
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?


Randall Reetz wrote:

 Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic
 language how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products)
 works?  Does it use apple's blessed dev environment at any step in
 the process?  In what form are the final builds?  Does it require a
 player app to be installed on each devise?  In short, how does runrev
 for mobile differ architecturally from the fully blessed apple
 environment and app format?

The last build RunRev shared with its early adopters worked in a way 
that was compliant with the license terms in force at the time they 
started that investment, but which has since become redefined by Apple 
as verboten:


You wrote in RevTalk, which the engine then compiled down to a form of 
object code that would run well on the iPhone with no player and no 
interpreted code.


But under the rules in effect as of 11:19AM this morning (which may 
change again by this afternoon), one of the unprecedented elements of 
the license is that Apple limits not only the state of the deliverable 
object code, but also the provenance of the source code:


  3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
  prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
  Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++,
  or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and
  only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and
  directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications
  that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation
  or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).

For more on this provenance aspect see Hank Williams' post:

http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com/2010/04/jobs-bans-non-c-libraries-insane.html

The must be originally written in clause is the killer here.  Even 
translating RevTalk to generate C/C++/Objective-C code which was fully 
compliant with all technical aspects and in all ways indistinguishable 
from human-written code would be punishable under criminal law.


Whether using psuedocode during design, as is a common practice, also 
violates this clause has yet to be tested.



 What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's
 previous plans for the revmobile product's base architecture
 and release protocols?

Currently unknown.

Kevin has noted here that he is in negotiations with Apple to determine 
the best course of action in light of their sweeping and unexpected 
change, and will report back here as soon as the outcome is known.


As currently written, Apple's current iPhone license agreement seems to 
leave only four options available to developers:


1. Developing using Apple APIs in only C/C++/Objective-C; because
   of the unusual provenance clause this option does not appear
   to be available to RunRev at this time.

2. Develop using JavaScript and WebKit; possible for RunRev, but
   while some of us do a bit of that in very limited ways it would
   no doubt be very costly to generate JS from the whole of RevTalk
   (though Toolbook kinda did that in a useful way).

3. Develop for the rest of the world and wait for Apple to change.

4. Develop for the rest of the world, and for iPhone OS deploy only
   for in-house use under the special provisioning rules that
   allow it, bypassing the AppStore.

I've seen nothing in the license or discussion of it which suggest there 
is a fifth option; at least any fifth option that doesn't leave 
developers even more exposed to risk than they already are.


I'm confident Kevin will choose from the limited options Apple has 
provided its developers the one that's in the best interest of this 
customers.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv


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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

I can't think of a modern democracy who's laws would support the proposition 
that a potential customer's only access to crucial information effecting a 
purchasing decision about a product… is to be procured only after they purchase 
said product.  To state this requirement in writing only makes the proposition 
more illegal (and reprehensible).

Who is advising RunRev on legal issues?

Randall Reetz


On May 6, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Andre Garzia wrote:

 An NDA was signed prior to all that
 Apple-we-do-evil-but-it-is-beautiful-evil stuff.
 
 It is not that people want to keep potential customers in the dark, it is
 that so far the community does not know what is happening except for the
 fact that RunRev team is in contact with Apple.
 
 All we can say is that currently the way that Revolution Desktop works,
 meaning, how the standalones are generated and how the engine works will not
 work with Apple Agreement, so a change is needed on the engine. This is
 information that is not related to the current fear from the 1.1.3 clause.
 This is related to Apple preventing code compilation and execution at
 runtime, this has be so since forever and RunRev was aware of it and
 RevMobile will do things different than use a JIT compiler like it does now
 on the Desktop.
 
 So all in all, we can't tell you because we don't know.
 
 If we knew we would not be able to tell but I believe that documentation
 would be available.
 
 Now, if someone in the community knows and I don't know, then, it is my
 fault and and I am talking sh*t.
 
 On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.comwrote:
 
 Wow.
 
 So the only way for a potential customer to find out if the runrev mobile
 solution is likely to pass muster with Apple's new policy (to make an
 informed purchasing decision), is to purchase the program (and find out
 later)?  I question both the legality of that policy and the obvious and
 expected negative public relations and marketing outfall.
 
 And you guys are complaining about Steve Jobs' autocratic and anti-consumer
 openness?
 
 
 Randall Reetz
 
 
 On May 6, 2010, at 10:44 AM, stephen barncard wrote:
 
 That's trade secret stuff at REV, and current users are on an NDA so they
 can't talk about it here. You could find out by buying the product.
 
 On 6 May 2010 10:38, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote:
 
 Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic
 language how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products) works?
 Does it use apple's blessed dev environment at any step in the process?
 In
 what form are the final builds?  Does it require a player app to be
 installed on each devise?  In short, how does runrev for mobile differ
 architecturally from the fully blessed apple environment and app format?
 
 What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's previous
 plans for the revmobile product's base architecture and release
 protocols?
 
 Randall Reetz___
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 Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
 subscription preferences:
 http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
 
 
 
 
 --
 -
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 Back home in SF
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

So, is Apple demanding that the use of its blessed environment is contingent on 
purchase (of said)?  If not, there must be some way to build the rev stack to 
iphad app work flow such that rev developers are both within Apple's 
requirements and are protected from the complexity happening behind the scenes.

Randall


On May 6, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

 Randall Reetz wrote:
 
  Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic
  language how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products)
  works?  Does it use apple's blessed dev environment at any step in
  the process?  In what form are the final builds?  Does it require a
  player app to be installed on each devise?  In short, how does runrev
  for mobile differ architecturally from the fully blessed apple
  environment and app format?
 
 The last build RunRev shared with its early adopters worked in a way that was 
 compliant with the license terms in force at the time they started that 
 investment, but which has since become redefined by Apple as verboten:
 
 You wrote in RevTalk, which the engine then compiled down to a form of object 
 code that would run well on the iPhone with no player and no interpreted code.
 
 But under the rules in effect as of 11:19AM this morning (which may change 
 again by this afternoon), one of the unprecedented elements of the license is 
 that Apple limits not only the state of the deliverable object code, but also 
 the provenance of the source code:
 
  3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
  prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
  Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++,
  or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and
  only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and
  directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications
  that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation
  or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).
 
 For more on this provenance aspect see Hank Williams' post:
 http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com/2010/04/jobs-bans-non-c-libraries-insane.html
 
 The must be originally written in clause is the killer here.  Even 
 translating RevTalk to generate C/C++/Objective-C code which was fully 
 compliant with all technical aspects and in all ways indistinguishable from 
 human-written code would be punishable under criminal law.
 
 Whether using psuedocode during design, as is a common practice, also 
 violates this clause has yet to be tested.
 
 
  What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's
  previous plans for the revmobile product's base architecture
  and release protocols?
 
 Currently unknown.
 
 Kevin has noted here that he is in negotiations with Apple to determine the 
 best course of action in light of their sweeping and unexpected change, and 
 will report back here as soon as the outcome is known.
 
 As currently written, Apple's current iPhone license agreement seems to leave 
 only four options available to developers:
 
 1. Developing using Apple APIs in only C/C++/Objective-C; because
   of the unusual provenance clause this option does not appear
   to be available to RunRev at this time.
 
 2. Develop using JavaScript and WebKit; possible for RunRev, but
   while some of us do a bit of that in very limited ways it would
   no doubt be very costly to generate JS from the whole of RevTalk
   (though Toolbook kinda did that in a useful way).
 
 3. Develop for the rest of the world and wait for Apple to change.
 
 4. Develop for the rest of the world, and for iPhone OS deploy only
   for in-house use under the special provisioning rules that
   allow it, bypassing the AppStore.
 
 I've seen nothing in the license or discussion of it which suggest there is a 
 fifth option; at least any fifth option that doesn't leave developers even 
 more exposed to risk than they already are.
 
 I'm confident Kevin will choose from the limited options Apple has provided 
 its developers the one that's in the best interest of this customers.
 
 --
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
 
 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

If apple is apples policy is contingent upon the purchase of the blessed IDE 
than a court will shortly slap it down.  Count on it.  But the battle could 
rage on a bit if apple is giving the blessed IDE away.

Randall

On May 6, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

 Randall Reetz wrote:
 
  Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic
  language how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products)
  works?  Does it use apple's blessed dev environment at any step in
  the process?  In what form are the final builds?  Does it require a
  player app to be installed on each devise?  In short, how does runrev
  for mobile differ architecturally from the fully blessed apple
  environment and app format?
 
 The last build RunRev shared with its early adopters worked in a way that was 
 compliant with the license terms in force at the time they started that 
 investment, but which has since become redefined by Apple as verboten:
 
 You wrote in RevTalk, which the engine then compiled down to a form of object 
 code that would run well on the iPhone with no player and no interpreted code.
 
 But under the rules in effect as of 11:19AM this morning (which may change 
 again by this afternoon), one of the unprecedented elements of the license is 
 that Apple limits not only the state of the deliverable object code, but also 
 the provenance of the source code:
 
  3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
  prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
  Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++,
  or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and
  only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and
  directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications
  that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation
  or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).
 
 For more on this provenance aspect see Hank Williams' post:
 http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com/2010/04/jobs-bans-non-c-libraries-insane.html
 
 The must be originally written in clause is the killer here.  Even 
 translating RevTalk to generate C/C++/Objective-C code which was fully 
 compliant with all technical aspects and in all ways indistinguishable from 
 human-written code would be punishable under criminal law.
 
 Whether using psuedocode during design, as is a common practice, also 
 violates this clause has yet to be tested.
 
 
  What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's
  previous plans for the revmobile product's base architecture
  and release protocols?
 
 Currently unknown.
 
 Kevin has noted here that he is in negotiations with Apple to determine the 
 best course of action in light of their sweeping and unexpected change, and 
 will report back here as soon as the outcome is known.
 
 As currently written, Apple's current iPhone license agreement seems to leave 
 only four options available to developers:
 
 1. Developing using Apple APIs in only C/C++/Objective-C; because
   of the unusual provenance clause this option does not appear
   to be available to RunRev at this time.
 
 2. Develop using JavaScript and WebKit; possible for RunRev, but
   while some of us do a bit of that in very limited ways it would
   no doubt be very costly to generate JS from the whole of RevTalk
   (though Toolbook kinda did that in a useful way).
 
 3. Develop for the rest of the world and wait for Apple to change.
 
 4. Develop for the rest of the world, and for iPhone OS deploy only
   for in-house use under the special provisioning rules that
   allow it, bypassing the AppStore.
 
 I've seen nothing in the license or discussion of it which suggest there is a 
 fifth option; at least any fifth option that doesn't leave developers even 
 more exposed to risk than they already are.
 
 I'm confident Kevin will choose from the limited options Apple has provided 
 its developers the one that's in the best interest of this customers.
 
 --
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
 
 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

One way to do this is the old runrev virtual machine idea (build and distribute 
a rev stack player app for iphads).  The world's legal systems protect (US 
first amendment) free speech and content authorship such that source content 
can not be messed with or restricted to or tied to exclusive protocol.  No one 
can tell William Shakespeare what type of pen he can write with or printing 
presses he can publish with.  

Apple has walked a fine line here for years.  In the world of sound recordings, 
there has always been enough purchasing venues (record stores) to provide the 
requisite freedom of expression and publication.  But when Apple ties content 
source to player they are violating the same laws that worked against 
Microsoft's browser integration scheme.  What apple used to get away with when 
it was the little guy no longer applies now that they dominate the media player 
landscape.

Randall Reetz


On May 6, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Randall Reetz wrote:

 So, is Apple demanding that the use of its blessed environment is contingent 
 on purchase (of said)?  If not, there must be some way to build the rev stack 
 to iphad app work flow such that rev developers are both within Apple's 
 requirements and are protected from the complexity happening behind the 
 scenes.
 
 Randall
 
 
 On May 6, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
 
 Randall Reetz wrote:
 
 Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic
 language how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products)
 works?  Does it use apple's blessed dev environment at any step in
 the process?  In what form are the final builds?  Does it require a
 player app to be installed on each devise?  In short, how does runrev
 for mobile differ architecturally from the fully blessed apple
 environment and app format?
 
 The last build RunRev shared with its early adopters worked in a way that 
 was compliant with the license terms in force at the time they started that 
 investment, but which has since become redefined by Apple as verboten:
 
 You wrote in RevTalk, which the engine then compiled down to a form of 
 object code that would run well on the iPhone with no player and no 
 interpreted code.
 
 But under the rules in effect as of 11:19AM this morning (which may change 
 again by this afternoon), one of the unprecedented elements of the license 
 is that Apple limits not only the state of the deliverable object code, but 
 also the provenance of the source code:
 
 3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
 prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
 Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++,
 or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and
 only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and
 directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications
 that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation
 or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).
 
 For more on this provenance aspect see Hank Williams' post:
 http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com/2010/04/jobs-bans-non-c-libraries-insane.html
 
 The must be originally written in clause is the killer here.  Even 
 translating RevTalk to generate C/C++/Objective-C code which was fully 
 compliant with all technical aspects and in all ways indistinguishable from 
 human-written code would be punishable under criminal law.
 
 Whether using psuedocode during design, as is a common practice, also 
 violates this clause has yet to be tested.
 
 
 What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's
 previous plans for the revmobile product's base architecture
 and release protocols?
 
 Currently unknown.
 
 Kevin has noted here that he is in negotiations with Apple to determine the 
 best course of action in light of their sweeping and unexpected change, and 
 will report back here as soon as the outcome is known.
 
 As currently written, Apple's current iPhone license agreement seems to 
 leave only four options available to developers:
 
 1. Developing using Apple APIs in only C/C++/Objective-C; because
  of the unusual provenance clause this option does not appear
  to be available to RunRev at this time.
 
 2. Develop using JavaScript and WebKit; possible for RunRev, but
  while some of us do a bit of that in very limited ways it would
  no doubt be very costly to generate JS from the whole of RevTalk
  (though Toolbook kinda did that in a useful way).
 
 3. Develop for the rest of the world and wait for Apple to change.
 
 4. Develop for the rest of the world, and for iPhone OS deploy only
  for in-house use under the special provisioning rules that
  allow it, bypassing the AppStore.
 
 I've seen nothing in the license or discussion of it which suggest there is 
 a fifth option; at least any fifth option that doesn't leave developers even 
 more exposed to risk than they already are.
 
 I'm confident Kevin will choose from the limited options Apple has provided 
 its

Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?


Randall Reetz wrote:

 If apple is apples policy is contingent upon the purchase of
 the blessed IDE than a court will shortly slap it down.  Count
 on it.  But the battle could rage on a bit if apple is giving
 the blessed IDE away.

It's free as in beer, just not free as in freedom.

In my understanding only portions are FOSS, but all of it needed for 
development is available without cost to anything but your time.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall,

Stop.

Stop.

Take a breath...

Inhale

Exhale

Calm down...

Okay, now let me begin...

Facts: Let us not get politickal with all the democracy stuff. No one is
withholding information. RevMobile is in flux, it is not finished. What is
open is an option to buy it while in Open Beta. If I recall correctly what
is being sold is entrance to Alpha/Beta program which includes the final
version when shipped. So remember RevMobile is not finished, it is in flux,
specially related to how it works and build stuff.

Second Fact:  Apple gives the SDK for free but that doesn't mean you can
sell or distribute for free your software. To do so, you need to enter the
iPhone Developer Program ( http://developer.apple.com/iphone ) which costs
at least USD 99. Only members of iDP are allowed to submit software for
approval and to use AdHoc install procedures on their test devices. What
changed is that now apple added a clause to the agreement saying that your
submission to the app store needs to be originally written in
ObjC/CocoaTouch. Some weeks ago, you could be a member of the iDP and submit
applications built with other tools or cross-compiled from other tools. Now
you can't.

Now back to RevMobile. The users who bought their entrances to the
Alpha/Beta program took a bet. They are willing to pay a price because they
believe that in the future RevMobile will be great! Most of the current
RevMobile testers are people who are going to the 2010 conference I believe
since RevMobile was included in the pioneer offer.

So RevMobile is not a finished product. So let us keep the legalese and
political stuff out and keep hoping for the best. RevMobile as a product is
not for sale yet.


-- 
http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code.
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?


Randall Reetz wrote:

 One way to do this is the old runrev virtual machine idea (build
 and distribute a rev stack player app for iphads).  The world's
 legal systems protect (US first amendment) free speech and content
 authorship such that source content can not be messed with or
 restricted to or tied to exclusive protocol.  No one can tell
 William Shakespeare what type of pen he can write with or printing
 presses he can publish with.

If you write code as prose there is no restriction at play.

The restriction applies only to executable instructions, which include 
all scripting languages.


At this time Python, Perl, Squeak, even languages essential for research 
like R and MatLab, are not allowed in iPhone OS.


According to Apple, researchers must use an Android-powered device to do 
their work. ;)


How does this apply to macros and formulas in Apple's own Numbers app? 
At the moment they may well constitute executable code, and are 
certainly interpreted.  I'll wager the license changes again as soon as 
someone points this out to them.


What time is it now, and what will the iPhone developer license look 
like by 2:12PM?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

If I were rev, I would choose the revPlayer App option.  This relegates stacks 
to source-document status, (not unlike ebooks, pdf's, .txt, html, IM, .snd, 
.mov, and other source data protocols).  Apple would wind up in some deep deep 
legal poopoo if it was seen to restrict document access and display on their 
devices.

Steve's frustration with Adobe has overrun his ability to think rationally.  
What surprises me is that nobody at apple had the balls to tell him so and stop 
the madness before it left campus.  

Randall Reetz

On May 6, 2010, at 11:42 AM, Randall Reetz wrote:

 One way to do this is the old runrev virtual machine idea (build and 
 distribute a rev stack player app for iphads).  The world's legal systems 
 protect (US first amendment) free speech and content authorship such that 
 source content can not be messed with or restricted to or tied to exclusive 
 protocol.  No one can tell William Shakespeare what type of pen he can write 
 with or printing presses he can publish with.  
 
 Apple has walked a fine line here for years.  In the world of sound 
 recordings, there has always been enough purchasing venues (record stores) to 
 provide the requisite freedom of expression and publication.  But when Apple 
 ties content source to player they are violating the same laws that worked 
 against Microsoft's browser integration scheme.  What apple used to get away 
 with when it was the little guy no longer applies now that they dominate the 
 media player landscape.
 
 Randall Reetz
 
 
 On May 6, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Randall Reetz wrote:
 
 So, is Apple demanding that the use of its blessed environment is contingent 
 on purchase (of said)?  If not, there must be some way to build the rev 
 stack to iphad app work flow such that rev developers are both within 
 Apple's requirements and are protected from the complexity happening behind 
 the scenes.
 
 Randall
 
 
 On May 6, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
 
 Randall Reetz wrote:
 
 Is there a resource online or a white paper that describes in basic
 language how runrev for mobile (specifically for apple products)
 works?  Does it use apple's blessed dev environment at any step in
 the process?  In what form are the final builds?  Does it require a
 player app to be installed on each devise?  In short, how does runrev
 for mobile differ architecturally from the fully blessed apple
 environment and app format?
 
 The last build RunRev shared with its early adopters worked in a way that 
 was compliant with the license terms in force at the time they started that 
 investment, but which has since become redefined by Apple as verboten:
 
 You wrote in RevTalk, which the engine then compiled down to a form of 
 object code that would run well on the iPhone with no player and no 
 interpreted code.
 
 But under the rules in effect as of 11:19AM this morning (which may change 
 again by this afternoon), one of the unprecedented elements of the license 
 is that Apple limits not only the state of the deliverable object code, but 
 also the provenance of the source code:
 
 3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
 prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
 Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++,
 or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and
 only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and
 directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications
 that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation
 or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).
 
 For more on this provenance aspect see Hank Williams' post:
 http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com/2010/04/jobs-bans-non-c-libraries-insane.html
 
 The must be originally written in clause is the killer here.  Even 
 translating RevTalk to generate C/C++/Objective-C code which was fully 
 compliant with all technical aspects and in all ways indistinguishable from 
 human-written code would be punishable under criminal law.
 
 Whether using psuedocode during design, as is a common practice, also 
 violates this clause has yet to be tested.
 
 
 What are the current plans and how have they changed runrev's
 previous plans for the revmobile product's base architecture
 and release protocols?
 
 Currently unknown.
 
 Kevin has noted here that he is in negotiations with Apple to determine the 
 best course of action in light of their sweeping and unexpected change, and 
 will report back here as soon as the outcome is known.
 
 As currently written, Apple's current iPhone license agreement seems to 
 leave only four options available to developers:
 
 1. Developing using Apple APIs in only C/C++/Objective-C; because
 of the unusual provenance clause this option does not appear
 to be available to RunRev at this time.
 
 2. Develop using JavaScript and WebKit; possible for RunRev, but
 while some of us do a bit of that in very limited ways it would
 no doubt be very costly to generate JS

Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Richard,

except you can't distribute your apps or test them on your device if you are
not a member of the iPhone Developer program.

What you can get for FREE is SDK access and simulator access.

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Richard Gaskin
ambassa...@fourthworld.comwrote:

 Randall Reetz wrote:

  If apple is apples policy is contingent upon the purchase of
  the blessed IDE than a court will shortly slap it down.  Count
  on it.  But the battle could rage on a bit if apple is giving
  the blessed IDE away.

 It's free as in beer, just not free as in freedom.

 In my understanding only portions are FOSS, but all of it needed for
 development is available without cost to anything but your time.


 --
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World
  Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
  revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

How about distribution rights?  Are those unlocked?  If Rev or someone wanted 
to distribute Apple's iphad IDE… could they?

Randall


On May 6, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

 Randall Reetz wrote:
 
  If apple is apples policy is contingent upon the purchase of
  the blessed IDE than a court will shortly slap it down.  Count
  on it.  But the battle could rage on a bit if apple is giving
  the blessed IDE away.
 
 It's free as in beer, just not free as in freedom.
 
 In my understanding only portions are FOSS, but all of it needed for 
 development is available without cost to anything but your time.
 
 --
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?


Andre Garzia wrote:


Now back to RevMobile. The users who bought their entrances to the
Alpha/Beta program took a bet. They are willing to pay a price because they
believe that in the future RevMobile will be great! Most of the current
RevMobile testers are people who are going to the 2010 conference I believe
since RevMobile was included in the pioneer offer.

So RevMobile is not a finished product.


Far from it.  That's an important point Andre, and very I'm glad you 
made it.


Like Rev for the desktop, Rev on the server, and Rev in the browser, 
RevMobile is a multi-platform solution.   And from the videos RunRev has 
shown it looks like it's well on it's way to being a great one.


Even with Apple's change to the license, that only affects a subset of 
developers on one platform.  In-house deployment is not affected at this 
time, there may still be a resolution for AppStore deployment as well, 
and all other target OSes remain unchanged.


As far as I can tell, everything else RevMobile set out to do is still 
moving ahead full steam (and possibly more than hasn't been formally 
announced yet).


And with any luck, Apple will come around and their customers can enjoy 
the party too.


With the mobile market even more diverse than the desktop market, 
multi-platform deployment is more valuable to developers than ever before.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall,

There can't be a revPlayer option. For the love of the almighty forum
search, check out some information. There can't be any kind of player on
iPhone OS. It is restricted. There can't be any kind of code interpreter,
code runner, code compiler, code transmogrifier on iPhone OS and this has
been the source of most of the problems for everyone.

This is the main problem and why RunRev had to change their engine in the
first place. This has been told and retold in this list and in basically
every other iPhone development list since forever. The restriction on
interpretation of code.

When you join the iPhone Developer program you accept an agreement that
enforces this restriction. If this agreement is not in tune with the U.S.
Constitution or whatever is not the point. The point is that you AGREE to
abide by some rules, if you break them and they kick you out of the store,
then you know why.

I remember at least three occasions where I wrote to this list talking on
the very subject of engine changes and why interpreters, JIT and all the
cool runtime stuff is not allowed.

What you sau about This relegates stacks to source-document status makes
no sense!!! There's a difference between raw data and code. A shakespeare
play will not fail to execute, it will not follow logic patterns, it will
not do math, it will not post to twitter, it will not execute anything. It
is not code.

Yes, you can load textual representation of source code in the iPhone but
you CANT EXECUTE IT not because some technical flaw but because theres a
FREAKING AGREEMENT telling you (and you accepted) that you can't!

This is the problem and there's no solution for executing foreign code in
the iPhone without violating these rules. The only option is to compile the
whole revolution stack down to bytecodes, creating a library that wraps the
engine, assembling then together in a nice XCode SDK project so that you
just hit build on XCode and be happy. Now, this can be done, but it takes
time and resources.

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.comwrote:

 If I were rev, I would choose the revPlayer App option.  This relegates
 stacks to source-document status, (not unlike ebooks, pdf's, .txt, html, IM,
 .snd, .mov, and other source data protocols).  Apple would wind up in some
 deep deep legal poopoo if it was seen to restrict document access and
 display on their devices.

 Steve's frustration with Adobe has overrun his ability to think rationally.
  What surprises me is that nobody at apple had the balls to tell him so and
 stop the madness before it left campus.

 Randall Reetz

 On May 6, 2010, at 11:42 AM, Randall Reetz wrote:

  One way to do this is the old runrev virtual machine idea (build and
 distribute a rev stack player app for iphads).  The world's legal systems
 protect (US first amendment) free speech and content authorship such that
 source content can not be messed with or restricted to or tied to exclusive
 protocol.  No one can tell William Shakespeare what type of pen he can write
 with or printing presses he can publish with.
 
  Apple has walked a fine line here for years.  In the world of sound
 recordings, there has always been enough purchasing venues (record stores)
 to provide the requisite freedom of expression and publication.  But when
 Apple ties content source to player they are violating the same laws that
 worked against Microsoft's browser integration scheme.  What apple used to
 get away with when it was the little guy no longer applies now that they
 dominate the media player landscape.
 
  Randall Reetz
 



-- 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

No.

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:52 PM, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.comwrote:

 How about distribution rights?  Are those unlocked?  If Rev or someone
 wanted to distribute Apple's iphad IDE… could they?

 Randall



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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

This is an interesting Supreme Court subject.  I could write a tight case that 
shows that code is content.  An executable program is first amendment protected 
expressive content exactly the same as is expected and enjoyed by a poet or a 
painter.

So, build an ipad and iphone stack runner (using Apple's blessed IDE) and be 
done with it.  Then the question is how to distribute runrev generated stacks 
for the iphad?

After that, the question is:  Does apple restrict the distribution of ebooks, 
movies, sounds or other content as a function of origin, protocol, or content?

If so, they will eventually face the courts on that issue for sure.  Anyone 
know what the civil liberties people are doing with regard to this topic?  It 
is one thing to be a media broadcaster or a content source, but to be that and 
the proprietor of the only equipment through with that same content can be 
consumed, wow, that is so beyond illegal that it is only a matter of time 
before Apple gets the big legal spanking it deserves.

Randall Reetz


On May 6, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

 Randall Reetz wrote:
 
  One way to do this is the old runrev virtual machine idea (build
  and distribute a rev stack player app for iphads).  The world's
  legal systems protect (US first amendment) free speech and content
  authorship such that source content can not be messed with or
  restricted to or tied to exclusive protocol.  No one can tell
  William Shakespeare what type of pen he can write with or printing
  presses he can publish with.
 
 If you write code as prose there is no restriction at play.
 
 The restriction applies only to executable instructions, which include all 
 scripting languages.
 
 At this time Python, Perl, Squeak, even languages essential for research like 
 R and MatLab, are not allowed in iPhone OS.
 
 According to Apple, researchers must use an Android-powered device to do 
 their work. ;)
 
 How does this apply to macros and formulas in Apple's own Numbers app? At the 
 moment they may well constitute executable code, and are certainly 
 interpreted.  I'll wager the license changes again as soon as someone points 
 this out to them.
 
 What time is it now, and what will the iPhone developer license look like by 
 2:12PM?
 
 --
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?


Andre Garzia wrote:


except you can't distribute your apps or test them on your device if you are
not a member of the iPhone Developer program.

What you can get for FREE is SDK access and simulator access.


Ah, right.  Thanks for the reminder.

IIRC the cost is pretty low, but I have no opinion on whether the terms 
are compliant with the US Constitution of the UN Declaration of Human 
Rights.  ;)


--
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 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv



On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Richard Gaskin
ambassador at fourthworld.comwrote:


Randall Reetz wrote:

 If apple is apples policy is contingent upon the purchase of
 the blessed IDE than a court will shortly slap it down.  Count
 on it.  But the battle could rage on a bit if apple is giving
 the blessed IDE away.

It's free as in beer, just not free as in freedom.

In my understanding only portions are FOSS, but all of it needed for
development is available without cost to anything but your time.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World


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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-06 Thread François Chaplais


Le 6 mai 2010 à 21:06, Randall Reetz a écrit :

 This is an interesting Supreme Court subject.  I could write a tight case 
 that shows that code is content.  An executable program is first amendment 
 protected expressive content exactly the same as is expected and enjoyed by a 
 poet or a painter.

Ahh... good I see the possibility of a Godwin point

 
 So, build an ipad and iphone stack runner (using Apple's blessed IDE) and be 
 done with it.  Then the question is how to distribute runrev generated stacks 
 for the iphad?
 
 After that, the question is:  Does apple restrict the distribution of ebooks, 
 movies, sounds or other content as a function of origin, protocol, or content?
 
 If so, they will eventually face the courts on that issue for sure.  Anyone 
 know what the civil liberties people are doing with regard to this topic?  It 
 is one thing to be a media broadcaster or a content source, but to be that 
 and the proprietor of the only equipment through with that same content can 
 be consumed, wow, that is so beyond illegal that it is only a matter of time 
 before Apple gets the big legal spanking it deserves.
 
 Randall Reetz
 



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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Good idea Randall... build it and go tell the Supreme Court. I will wait
here and wonder why tiny Adobe and RunRev team didn't do the same thing.

Now being realistic. It is not that simple Randall...

You CAN'T BUILD AND DISTRIBUTE A PLAYER, now it is the fifth time I tell
that here and the second time I tell it to you. YOU CAN'T and this is not
because the U.S. Constitution, actually, there are other goverments in the
world with different constitutions and there's something called the E.U.
with a whole bunch of cool laws around. It doesn't matter right now because
YOU CAN'T DISTRIBUTE SOFTWARE ON THE IPHONE OUTSIDE OF THE APP STORE. The
only way to distribute your software is thru the app store. And yes, if you
are a member of the iPhone developer program, you can hook up to 100
iDevices to your development machine and install software on them but this
is not reasonable way to distribute software. And yes you can be a member of
university program or enterprise program and be allowed to install pretty
much anything on your university/enterprise iphones/ipads but this still is
no solution for those that want to distribute software to end users, the
only way to do that is thru the app store and they will not allow a player
thru.

Sue them if you want, you will not be the only one.

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.comwrote:

 This is an interesting Supreme Court subject.  I could write a tight case
 that shows that code is content.  An executable program is first amendment
 protected expressive content exactly the same as is expected and enjoyed by
 a poet or a painter.

 So, build an ipad and iphone stack runner (using Apple's blessed IDE) and
 be done with it.  Then the question is how to distribute runrev generated
 stacks for the iphad?

 After that, the question is:  Does apple restrict the distribution of
 ebooks, movies, sounds or other content as a function of origin, protocol,
 or content?

 If so, they will eventually face the courts on that issue for sure.  Anyone
 know what the civil liberties people are doing with regard to this topic?
  It is one thing to be a media broadcaster or a content source, but to be
 that and the proprietor of the only equipment through with that same content
 can be consumed, wow, that is so beyond illegal that it is only a matter of
 time before Apple gets the big legal spanking it deserves.

 Randall Reetz


 On May 6, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

  Randall Reetz wrote:
 
   One way to do this is the old runrev virtual machine idea (build
   and distribute a rev stack player app for iphads).  The world's
   legal systems protect (US first amendment) free speech and content
   authorship such that source content can not be messed with or
   restricted to or tied to exclusive protocol.  No one can tell
   William Shakespeare what type of pen he can write with or printing
   presses he can publish with.
 
  If you write code as prose there is no restriction at play.
 
  The restriction applies only to executable instructions, which include
 all scripting languages.
 
  At this time Python, Perl, Squeak, even languages essential for research
 like R and MatLab, are not allowed in iPhone OS.
 
  According to Apple, researchers must use an Android-powered device to do
 their work. ;)
 
  How does this apply to macros and formulas in Apple's own Numbers app? At
 the moment they may well constitute executable code, and are certainly
 interpreted.  I'll wager the license changes again as soon as someone points
 this out to them.
 
  What time is it now, and what will the iPhone developer license look like
 by 2:12PM?
 
  --
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World
  Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
  revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

What Andre has been trying to tell you, is it is IMPOSSIBLE to run scripts or 
interpreted code on the iPhoneOS. This has been the case from the very start 
and is widely known and not much debated. The original reason given for this 
was to prevent malware, but I suspect it also is seen as a way to get around 
having to pay for an app at the AppStore.

I would suggest you consider reading up on the goings on of this case before 
you try it at the Supreme Court.

Chipp Walters
CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc

On May 6, 2010, at 2:06 PM, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com wrote:

 So, build an ipad and iphone stack runner (using Apple's blessed IDE) and be 
 done with it.  Then the question is how to distribute runrev generated stacks 
 for the iphad?
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

On May 6, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Randall Reetz wrote:

 After that, the question is:  Does apple restrict the distribution of ebooks, 
 movies, sounds or other content as a function of origin, protocol, or content?

How exactly is apple attempting to define a distinction between content that 
isn't and is code?  What is the difference, as they are trying to argue, 
between a page of text, a frame of video, a passage of recorded music, and 
executable code?  Any such distinction would have to be arbitrary at best.

Steve has fully and completely jumped headlong into the public fire pit this 
time.  Wow, he must really hate Adobe!  Willing to kill his own company (again) 
in defense of his own ego and frustrations with others.  There is something to 
be said for the adage that states that entrepreneurs make terrible CEO's.  10 
years ago, apple was a startup again.  Steve came back to play entrepreneur.  
Not it is a global company again.  Will they let him ruin it again?  Then hire 
him back as cowboy again?

Randall

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?


Randall Reetz wrote:

 This is an interesting Supreme Court subject.  I could write a
 tight case that shows that code is content.  An executable program
 is first amendment protected expressive content exactly the same
 as is expected and enjoyed by a poet or a painter.

 So, build an ipad and iphone stack runner (using Apple's blessed IDE)
 and be done with it.  Then the question is how to distribute runrev
 generated stacks for the iphad?

 After that, the question is:  Does apple restrict the distribution of
 ebooks, movies, sounds or other content as a function of origin,
 protocol, or content?

If you want to publish your source code as prose or poetry in an ebook 
there's nothing stopping you.  Some reasonably good poems have been 
written in xTalk.


If you want to deploy that text as scripts along with an engine to 
interpret that text at runtime into executable statements, that's 
another thing.


This seems to be the inverse of the font copyright precedent, where the 
distinction between code and data were clearly established:  font 
designs as bitmaps are not afforded copyright protection because they 
are considered primarily utilitarian and obvious, but when vector 
fonts like PostScript and TrueType came along they were afforded 
copyright protection as executable code, even as the glyphs they 
rendered were not protectable (which explains the thousands of 
knock-offs, fully allowable if the designs contain none of the original 
code).


With the distinction between data and executable code well established, 
I would not imagine it would be too hard for Apple's army of lawyers to 
draw on that to support a case where they've explicitly prohibited 
certain forms of executable code.


But that said, I'm no lawyer.

If you get this to the Supreme Court let us know how it works out for you.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

The EU is even more attentive to anti-trust issues than are US courts.  Believe 
me, these cases are under development in the US and the EU courts.  What Steve 
has done simply accelerates the process and priority of said.  There are ways 
around the app store and these ways will receive more attention shortly.

Is RunRev joining any class action law suits addressing this grievance?  Anyone 
know of any such suits and how to join them?

Randall


On May 6, 2010, at 12:15 PM, Andre Garzia wrote:

 Good idea Randall... build it and go tell the Supreme Court. I will wait
 here and wonder why tiny Adobe and RunRev team didn't do the same thing.
 
 Now being realistic. It is not that simple Randall...
 
 You CAN'T BUILD AND DISTRIBUTE A PLAYER, now it is the fifth time I tell
 that here and the second time I tell it to you. YOU CAN'T and this is not
 because the U.S. Constitution, actually, there are other goverments in the
 world with different constitutions and there's something called the E.U.
 with a whole bunch of cool laws around. It doesn't matter right now because
 YOU CAN'T DISTRIBUTE SOFTWARE ON THE IPHONE OUTSIDE OF THE APP STORE. The
 only way to distribute your software is thru the app store. And yes, if you
 are a member of the iPhone developer program, you can hook up to 100
 iDevices to your development machine and install software on them but this
 is not reasonable way to distribute software. And yes you can be a member of
 university program or enterprise program and be allowed to install pretty
 much anything on your university/enterprise iphones/ipads but this still is
 no solution for those that want to distribute software to end users, the
 only way to do that is thru the app store and they will not allow a player
 thru.
 
 Sue them if you want, you will not be the only one.
 
 On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.comwrote:
 
 This is an interesting Supreme Court subject.  I could write a tight case
 that shows that code is content.  An executable program is first amendment
 protected expressive content exactly the same as is expected and enjoyed by
 a poet or a painter.
 
 So, build an ipad and iphone stack runner (using Apple's blessed IDE) and
 be done with it.  Then the question is how to distribute runrev generated
 stacks for the iphad?
 
 After that, the question is:  Does apple restrict the distribution of
 ebooks, movies, sounds or other content as a function of origin, protocol,
 or content?
 
 If so, they will eventually face the courts on that issue for sure.  Anyone
 know what the civil liberties people are doing with regard to this topic?
 It is one thing to be a media broadcaster or a content source, but to be
 that and the proprietor of the only equipment through with that same content
 can be consumed, wow, that is so beyond illegal that it is only a matter of
 time before Apple gets the big legal spanking it deserves.
 
 Randall Reetz
 
 
 On May 6, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
 
 Randall Reetz wrote:
 
 One way to do this is the old runrev virtual machine idea (build
 and distribute a rev stack player app for iphads).  The world's
 legal systems protect (US first amendment) free speech and content
 authorship such that source content can not be messed with or
 restricted to or tied to exclusive protocol.  No one can tell
 William Shakespeare what type of pen he can write with or printing
 presses he can publish with.
 
 If you write code as prose there is no restriction at play.
 
 The restriction applies only to executable instructions, which include
 all scripting languages.
 
 At this time Python, Perl, Squeak, even languages essential for research
 like R and MatLab, are not allowed in iPhone OS.
 
 According to Apple, researchers must use an Android-powered device to do
 their work. ;)
 
 How does this apply to macros and formulas in Apple's own Numbers app? At
 the moment they may well constitute executable code, and are certainly
 interpreted.  I'll wager the license changes again as soon as someone points
 this out to them.
 
 What time is it now, and what will the iPhone developer license look like
 by 2:12PM?
 
 --
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
 ___
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 use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
 subscription preferences:
 http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
 
 
 ___
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 use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
 subscription preferences:
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 -- 
 http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code.

Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

by the way, if you're in the mood for supreme courts, you can please sue
them here as well:

http://www.stf.jus.br/portal/principal/principal.asp

This is the Brazilian Supreme Federal Court, you can sue apple in here too
if you want. And here we have laws against prejudices and that protects
minorities, if you can convince them that apple is prejudiced against
interpreters and is oppressing xTalk minorities, your case will be a
wonderful success!!!

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Richard Gaskin
ambassa...@fourthworld.comwrote:

 Randall Reetz wrote:

  This is an interesting Supreme Court subject.  I could write a
  tight case that shows that code is content.  An executable program
  is first amendment protected expressive content exactly the same
  as is expected and enjoyed by a poet or a painter.
 
  So, build an ipad and iphone stack runner (using Apple's blessed IDE)
  and be done with it.  Then the question is how to distribute runrev
  generated stacks for the iphad?
 
  After that, the question is:  Does apple restrict the distribution of
  ebooks, movies, sounds or other content as a function of origin,
  protocol, or content?

 If you want to publish your source code as prose or poetry in an ebook
 there's nothing stopping you.  Some reasonably good poems have been written
 in xTalk.

 If you want to deploy that text as scripts along with an engine to
 interpret that text at runtime into executable statements, that's another
 thing.

 This seems to be the inverse of the font copyright precedent, where the
 distinction between code and data were clearly established:  font designs as
 bitmaps are not afforded copyright protection because they are considered
 primarily utilitarian and obvious, but when vector fonts like PostScript
 and TrueType came along they were afforded copyright protection as
 executable code, even as the glyphs they rendered were not protectable
 (which explains the thousands of knock-offs, fully allowable if the designs
 contain none of the original code).

 With the distinction between data and executable code well established, I
 would not imagine it would be too hard for Apple's army of lawyers to draw
 on that to support a case where they've explicitly prohibited certain forms
 of executable code.

 But that said, I'm no lawyer.

 If you get this to the Supreme Court let us know how it works out for you.


 --
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World
  Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
  revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Haven't we passed that yet? If not, I'm more than happy to get us there ;-)
http://mingramjr.com/hitler-shows-his-frustration-for-the-lost-iph

Also see: 
http://shaferwaltersgroup.posterous.com/jobs-pay-attention-to-our-ads-or-we-lockout-y

Chipp Walters
CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc

On May 6, 2010, at 2:14 PM, François Chaplais 
francois.chapl...@mines-paristech.fr wrote:

 
 Le 6 mai 2010 à 21:06, Randall Reetz a écrit :
 
 This is an interesting Supreme Court subject.  I could write a tight case 
 that shows that code is content.  An executable program is first amendment 
 protected expressive content exactly the same as is expected and enjoyed by 
 a poet or a painter.
 
 Ahh... good I see the possibility of a Godwin point
 
 
 So, build an ipad and iphone stack runner (using Apple's blessed IDE) and be 
 done with it.  Then the question is how to distribute runrev generated 
 stacks for the iphad?
 
 After that, the question is:  Does apple restrict the distribution of 
 ebooks, movies, sounds or other content as a function of origin, protocol, 
 or content?
 
 If so, they will eventually face the courts on that issue for sure.  Anyone 
 know what the civil liberties people are doing with regard to this topic?  
 It is one thing to be a media broadcaster or a content source, but to be 
 that and the proprietor of the only equipment through with that same content 
 can be consumed, wow, that is so beyond illegal that it is only a matter of 
 time before Apple gets the big legal spanking it deserves.
 
 Randall Reetz
 
 
 
 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-06 Thread François Chaplais


Le 6 mai 2010 à 21:20, Richard Gaskin a écrit :

 
 If you want to publish your source code as prose or poetry in an ebook 
 there's nothing stopping you.  Some reasonably good poems have been written 
 in xTalk.
 

good thinking. Raymond Queneau did this before in his cent mille milliards de 
poèmes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Thousand_Billion_Poems
I had a printing of it one day. It is like computer poetry, but without a 
computer. What I learned in the Wikipedia article (in the french version too) 
is that the publisher of the book managed to ban its implementation on the 
internet.

When I think of it, it is only poetic justice.




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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Anyone wants to buy me a nexus one phone? They don't sell them in Brazil :-(

I am so going to jump out of apple camp soon...

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Chipp Walters ch...@altuit.com wrote:

 Haven't we passed that yet? If not, I'm more than happy to get us there ;-)
 http://mingramjr.com/hitler-shows-his-frustration-for-the-lost-iph

 Also see:

 http://shaferwaltersgroup.posterous.com/jobs-pay-attention-to-our-ads-or-we-lockout-y

 Chipp Walters
 CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc

 On May 6, 2010, at 2:14 PM, François Chaplais 
 francois.chapl...@mines-paristech.fr wrote:

 
  Le 6 mai 2010 à 21:06, Randall Reetz a écrit :
 
  This is an interesting Supreme Court subject.  I could write a tight
 case that shows that code is content.  An executable program is first
 amendment protected expressive content exactly the same as is expected and
 enjoyed by a poet or a painter.
 
  Ahh... good I see the possibility of a Godwin point
 
 
  So, build an ipad and iphone stack runner (using Apple's blessed IDE)
 and be done with it.  Then the question is how to distribute runrev
 generated stacks for the iphad?
 
  After that, the question is:  Does apple restrict the distribution of
 ebooks, movies, sounds or other content as a function of origin, protocol,
 or content?
 
  If so, they will eventually face the courts on that issue for sure.
  Anyone know what the civil liberties people are doing with regard to this
 topic?  It is one thing to be a media broadcaster or a content source, but
 to be that and the proprietor of the only equipment through with that same
 content can be consumed, wow, that is so beyond illegal that it is only a
 matter of time before Apple gets the big legal spanking it deserves.
 
  Randall Reetz
 
 
 
 
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C source 
translator.  If stacks could be run through an extractor that did this and 
output objective C project document set, then it would be trivial for the user 
to end up with an apple complient app.  Better yet, offer this as a service.  
Rev user would upload stacks to rev's site which would handle the conversion.  
Adobe cares about the format of its protocol.  Rev doesn't or shouldn't.  The 
whole point should be supposing a pathway from rev to iphad app.  The tool 
doesn't matter.  Emulate all you want on the rev user end.  But output 
shouldn't need to be under rev user control.  I know I don't care how my stack 
becomes an app.

-Original Message-
From: Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 11:52 AM
To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

How about distribution rights?  Are those unlocked?  If Rev or someone wanted 
to distribute Apple's iphad IDE could they?

Randall


On May 6, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

 Randall Reetz wrote:
 
  If apple is apples policy is contingent upon the purchase of
  the blessed IDE than a court will shortly slap it down.  Count
  on it.  But the battle could rage on a bit if apple is giving
  the blessed IDE away.
 
 It's free as in beer, just not free as in freedom.
 
 In my understanding only portions are FOSS, but all of it needed for 
 development is available without cost to anything but your time.
 
 --
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?


Randall Reetz wrote:

 Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C
 source translator.  If stacks could be run through an extractor
 that did this and output objective C project document set, then
 it would be trivial for the user to end up with an apple complient
 app.

Unfortunately it would not.

It seems your iPhone's screen is too small, since you're missing about 
half the discussion going on here.


Just a short while ago today in a post you replied to I noted the 
provenance clause, in which Apple controls not only the suitability of 
the deliverable object code, but also the process by which its source is 
created:


http://mail.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2010-May/139234.html

Yes, I know it's hard to believe.  We've never seen anything like it in 
the history of the industry.  But it's there, and is central to this 
whole issue.


Much has been written about it.  You might find it worthwhile to take a 
break here and catch up on some of the blogs about it, starting with the 
links already posted to this and related threads here, like Gruber, 
Williams, Ars Technica, etc.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

OK, SEE YA, BYE-BYE, HAVE FUN, 

I'm am really getting so sick of listening to this crap. Please go join some 
APPLE hating, Steve Jobs hating list. WILL YOU PLEASE.

It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric when the 
comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references and EVIL 
comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH 

I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far beyond 
what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh developers and Windows 
developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to have Google developers 
and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set an example of true 
cross-platform respect towards each others platform of choice. 

PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND AIR YOUR 
PERSONAL VENDETTAS.

I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___ better. I 
don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think it's wrong. 
I don't care what your damn opinions are.

JUST STOP

Tom McGrath

On May 6, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Andre Garzia wrote:

 Anyone wants to buy me a nexus one phone? They don't sell them in Brazil :-(
 
 I am so going to jump out of apple camp soon...
 
 On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Chipp Walters ch...@altuit.com wrote:
 
 Haven't we passed that yet? If not, I'm more than happy to get us there ;-)
 http://mingramjr.com/hitler-shows-his-frustration-for-the-lost-iph
 
 Also see:
 
 http://shaferwaltersgroup.posterous.com/jobs-pay-attention-to-our-ads-or-we-lockout-y
 
 Chipp Walters
 CEO, Shafer Walters Group, Inc
 
 On May 6, 2010, at 2:14 PM, François Chaplais 
 francois.chapl...@mines-paristech.fr wrote:
 
 
 Le 6 mai 2010 à 21:06, Randall Reetz a écrit :
 
 This is an interesting Supreme Court subject.  I could write a tight
 case that shows that code is content.  An executable program is first
 amendment protected expressive content exactly the same as is expected and
 enjoyed by a poet or a painter.
 
 Ahh... good I see the possibility of a Godwin point
 
 
 So, build an ipad and iphone stack runner (using Apple's blessed IDE)
 and be done with it.  Then the question is how to distribute runrev
 generated stacks for the iphad?
 
 After that, the question is:  Does apple restrict the distribution of
 ebooks, movies, sounds or other content as a function of origin, protocol,
 or content?
 
 If so, they will eventually face the courts on that issue for sure.
 Anyone know what the civil liberties people are doing with regard to this
 topic?  It is one thing to be a media broadcaster or a content source, but
 to be that and the proprietor of the only equipment through with that same
 content can be consumed, wow, that is so beyond illegal that it is only a
 matter of time before Apple gets the big legal spanking it deserves.
 
 Randall Reetz
 
 
 
 
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 http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code.
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

I'm am really getting so sick of listening to this crap. Please go join some 
APPLE hating, Steve Jobs hating list. WILL YOU PLEASE.

It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric when the 
comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references and EVIL 
comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH 

I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far beyond 
what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh developers and Windows 
developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to have Google developers 
and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set an example of true 
cross-platform respect towards each others platform of choice. 

PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND AIR YOUR 
PERSONAL VENDETTAS.

I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___ better. I 
don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think it's wrong. 
I don't care what your damn opinions are.

JUST STOP

Tom McGrath


On May 6, 2010, at 4:27 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote:

 Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C source 
 translator.  If stacks could be run through an extractor that did this and 
 output objective C project document set, then it would be trivial for the 
 user to end up with an apple complient app.  Better yet, offer this as a 
 service.  Rev user would upload stacks to rev's site which would handle the 
 conversion.  Adobe cares about the format of its protocol.  Rev doesn't or 
 shouldn't.  The whole point should be supposing a pathway from rev to iphad 
 app.  The tool doesn't matter.  Emulate all you want on the rev user end.  
 But output shouldn't need to be under rev user control.  I know I don't care 
 how my stack becomes an app.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com
 Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 11:52 AM
 To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
 
 How about distribution rights?  Are those unlocked?  If Rev or someone wanted 
 to distribute Apple's iphad IDE… could they?
 
 Randall
 
 
 On May 6, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
 
 Randall Reetz wrote:
 
 If apple is apples policy is contingent upon the purchase of
 the blessed IDE than a court will shortly slap it down.  Count
 on it.  But the battle could rage on a bit if apple is giving
 the blessed IDE away.
 
 It's free as in beer, just not free as in freedom.
 
 In my understanding only portions are FOSS, but all of it needed for 
 development is available without cost to anything but your time.
 
 --
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
 ___
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 use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
 preferences:
 http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
 
 
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 Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

What do you think RevMobile is? It does exactly THAT. It's just that Jobs
doesn't allow for THAT.

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Randall Lee Reetz
rand...@randallreetz.comwrote:

 Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C source
 translator.  If stacks could be run through an extractor that did this and
 output objective C project document set, then it would be trivial for the
 user to end up with an apple complient app.
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

I'm am really getting so sick of listening to this crap. Please go join some 
APPLE hating, Steve Jobs hating list. WILL YOU PLEASE.

It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric when the 
comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references and EVIL 
comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH 

I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far beyond 
what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh developers and Windows 
developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to have Google developers 
and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set an example of true 
cross-platform respect towards each others platform of choice. 

PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND AIR YOUR 
PERSONAL VENDETTAS.

I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___ better. I 
don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think it's wrong. 
I don't care what your damn opinions are.

JUST STOP

Tom McGrath
On May 6, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

 What do you think RevMobile is? It does exactly THAT. It's just that Jobs
 doesn't allow for THAT.
 
 On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Randall Lee Reetz
 rand...@randallreetz.comwrote:
 
 Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C source
 translator.  If stacks could be run through an extractor that did this and
 output objective C project document set, then it would be trivial for the
 user to end up with an apple complient app.
 ___
 use-revolution mailing list
 use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
 preferences:
 http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Tom, having a bad day?

Sorry, but Steve Jobs personal vendetta against Adobe IS creating problems
for RunRev. Have you not been paying attention here?

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Thomas McGrath III mcgra...@mac.com wrote:

 I'm am really getting so sick of listening to this crap. Please go join
 some APPLE hating, Steve Jobs hating list. WILL YOU PLEASE.

 It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric when the
 comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references and EVIL
 comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH

 I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far
 beyond what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh developers and
 Windows developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to have Google
 developers and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set an example
 of true cross-platform respect towards each others platform of choice.

 PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND AIR YOUR
 PERSONAL VENDETTAS.

 I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___ better. I
 don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think it's
 wrong. I don't care what your damn opinions are.

 JUST STOP

 Tom McGrath


 On May 6, 2010, at 4:27 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote:

  Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C source
 translator.  If stacks could be run through an extractor that did this and
 output objective C project document set, then it would be trivial for the
 user to end up with an apple complient app.  Better yet, offer this as a
 service.  Rev user would upload stacks to rev's site which would handle the
 conversion.  Adobe cares about the format of its protocol.  Rev doesn't or
 shouldn't.  The whole point should be supposing a pathway from rev to iphad
 app.  The tool doesn't matter.  Emulate all you want on the rev user end.
  But output shouldn't need to be under rev user control.  I know I don't
 care how my stack becomes an app.
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com
  Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 11:52 AM
  To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
  Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
 
  How about distribution rights?  Are those unlocked?  If Rev or someone
 wanted to distribute Apple's iphad IDE… could they?
 
  Randall
 
 
  On May 6, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
 
  Randall Reetz wrote:
 
  If apple is apples policy is contingent upon the purchase of
  the blessed IDE than a court will shortly slap it down.  Count
  on it.  But the battle could rage on a bit if apple is giving
  the blessed IDE away.
 
  It's free as in beer, just not free as in freedom.
 
  In my understanding only portions are FOSS, but all of it needed for
 development is available without cost to anything but your time.
 
  --
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World
  Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
  revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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  use-revolution mailing list
  use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
  Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
 subscription preferences:
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 subscription preferences:
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

I'm am really getting so sick of listening to this crap. Please go join some 
APPLE hating, Steve Jobs hating list. WILL YOU PLEASE.

It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric when the 
comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references and EVIL 
comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH 

I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far beyond 
what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh developers and Windows 
developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to have Google developers 
and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set an example of true 
cross-platform respect towards each others platform of choice. 

PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND AIR YOUR 
PERSONAL VENDETTAS.

I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___ better. I 
don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think it's wrong. 
I don't care what your damn opinions are.

JUST STOP

Tom McGrath

On May 6, 2010, at 5:03 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

 Tom, having a bad day?
 
 Sorry, but Steve Jobs personal vendetta against Adobe IS creating problems
 for RunRev. Have you not been paying attention here?
 
 On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Thomas McGrath III mcgra...@mac.com wrote:
 
 I'm am really getting so sick of listening to this crap. Please go join
 some APPLE hating, Steve Jobs hating list. WILL YOU PLEASE.
 
 It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric when the
 comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references and EVIL
 comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH
 
 I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far
 beyond what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh developers and
 Windows developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to have Google
 developers and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set an example
 of true cross-platform respect towards each others platform of choice.
 
 PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND AIR YOUR
 PERSONAL VENDETTAS.
 
 I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___ better. I
 don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think it's
 wrong. I don't care what your damn opinions are.
 
 JUST STOP
 
 Tom McGrath
 
 
 On May 6, 2010, at 4:27 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote:
 
 Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C source
 translator.  If stacks could be run through an extractor that did this and
 output objective C project document set, then it would be trivial for the
 user to end up with an apple complient app.  Better yet, offer this as a
 service.  Rev user would upload stacks to rev's site which would handle the
 conversion.  Adobe cares about the format of its protocol.  Rev doesn't or
 shouldn't.  The whole point should be supposing a pathway from rev to iphad
 app.  The tool doesn't matter.  Emulate all you want on the rev user end.
 But output shouldn't need to be under rev user control.  I know I don't
 care how my stack becomes an app.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Randall Reetz rand...@randallreetz.com
 Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 11:52 AM
 To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?
 
 How about distribution rights?  Are those unlocked?  If Rev or someone
 wanted to distribute Apple's iphad IDE… could they?
 
 Randall
 
 
 On May 6, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
 
 Randall Reetz wrote:
 
 If apple is apples policy is contingent upon the purchase of
 the blessed IDE than a court will shortly slap it down.  Count
 on it.  But the battle could rage on a bit if apple is giving
 the blessed IDE away.
 
 It's free as in beer, just not free as in freedom.
 
 In my understanding only portions are FOSS, but all of it needed for
 development is available without cost to anything but your time.
 
 --
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
 ___
 use-revolution mailing list
 use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
 Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
 subscription preferences:
 http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
 
 
 ___
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 Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
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 http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
 
 
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Chipp,

I love ya, but I just don't give a damn..

When RunRev writes back to me and tells me they have a problem with this and 
what their decision on how they are going to handle this is then I WILL CARE. 

But until then this is all hype.

Tom

On May 6, 2010, at 5:03 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

 Tom, having a bad day?
 
 Sorry, but Steve Jobs personal vendetta against Adobe IS creating problems
 for RunRev. Have you not been paying attention here?

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Tom, see below...

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Thomas McGrath III mcgra...@mac.com wrote:


 It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric when the
 comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references and EVIL
 comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH


Tom, the Hitler references are part of an ongoing comment regarding the
Godwin point made by someone else. If you don't know what the Godwin point
is then look here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

It's a joke, get it? haha.


 I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far
 beyond what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh developers and
 Windows developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to have Google
 developers and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set an example
 of true cross-platform respect towards each others platform of choice.


I have no issues with Macintosh running RunRev. But if they decided to wall
it off like they do with the iPhone or iPad, I would voice my opinion here
as well about it.


 PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND AIR YOUR
 PERSONAL VENDETTAS.


You seem to be the one the typing in all caps. The fact is, the 4
SDK license may not be a permanent one, and the more heat placed on Steve
Jobs and Apple over it, the more there is a chance for Apple to change their
mind. It's happened before where they've changed their mind based on outside
pressure-- it can happen again.


 I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___ better. I
 don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think it's
 wrong. I don't care what your damn opinions are.

 JUST STOP


Tom, it's a user list where we discuss issues relative to RunRev. I've paid
significant dollars and invested time for RevMobile in order to program for
iPad, only to have Steve Jobs retroactively change the license agreement
against cross platform tools for iPhone/iPad. I am sorry you're having such
a tough time with this. Why don't you try not reading comments posted by me
from now on?

Maybe that will help.
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-06 Thread Paul Looney


Tom,
I don't always agree with Chipp, but I've found, over the years, that  
when he writes he always has something worthwhile to say - and he  
usually says it well.

You don't have to listen to him - or anyone else.
I will continue to look forward to his comments.
Thanks Chipp.
Paul Looney

On May 6, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:


Tom, see below...

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Thomas McGrath III  
mcgra...@mac.com wrote:



It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric  
when the
comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references  
and EVIL

comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH



Tom, the Hitler references are part of an ongoing comment regarding  
the
Godwin point made by someone else. If you don't know what the  
Godwin point

is then look here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

It's a joke, get it? haha.



I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far
beyond what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh  
developers and
Windows developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to  
have Google
developers and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set  
an example
of true cross-platform respect towards each others platform of  
choice.




I have no issues with Macintosh running RunRev. But if they decided  
to wall
it off like they do with the iPhone or iPad, I would voice my  
opinion here

as well about it.


PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND  
AIR YOUR

PERSONAL VENDETTAS.



You seem to be the one the typing in all caps. The fact is, the 4
SDK license may not be a permanent one, and the more heat placed on  
Steve
Jobs and Apple over it, the more there is a chance for Apple to  
change their
mind. It's happened before where they've changed their mind based  
on outside

pressure-- it can happen again.


I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___  
better. I
don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think  
it's

wrong. I don't care what your damn opinions are.

JUST STOP



Tom, it's a user list where we discuss issues relative to RunRev.  
I've paid
significant dollars and invested time for RevMobile in order to  
program for
iPad, only to have Steve Jobs retroactively change the license  
agreement
against cross platform tools for iPhone/iPad. I am sorry you're  
having such
a tough time with this. Why don't you try not reading comments  
posted by me

from now on?

Maybe that will help.
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subscription preferences:

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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-06 Thread René Micout

Godwin's law

Le 6 mai 2010 à 23:15, Chipp Walters a écrit :

 Tom, the Hitler references are part of an ongoing comment regarding the
 Godwin point made by someone else. If you don't know what the Godwin point
 is then look here.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Thank you Chipp,
After 20 years I learned existence of the Godwin's law...
As I said yesterday, I think, in another post, I learn something every day...
And it is time for today, it is 23:52 in France ;-)
René___
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Paul,

I also enjoy Chipps' comments on and off this list and am glad to have made his 
acquaintance on this list. My reaction was not meant for him specifically but 
about the level to which the comments were taking.

Tom

On May 6, 2010, at 5:43 PM, Paul Looney wrote:

 Tom,
 I don't always agree with Chipp, but I've found, over the years, that when he 
 writes he always has something worthwhile to say - and he usually says it 
 well.
 You don't have to listen to him - or anyone else.
 I will continue to look forward to his comments.
 Thanks Chipp.
 Paul Looney
 
 On May 6, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:
 
 Tom, see below...
 
 On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Thomas McGrath III mcgra...@mac.com wrote:
 
 
 It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric when the
 comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references and EVIL
 comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH
 
 
 Tom, the Hitler references are part of an ongoing comment regarding the
 Godwin point made by someone else. If you don't know what the Godwin point
 is then look here.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
 
 It's a joke, get it? haha.
 
 
 I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far
 beyond what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh developers and
 Windows developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to have Google
 developers and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set an example
 of true cross-platform respect towards each others platform of choice.
 
 
 I have no issues with Macintosh running RunRev. But if they decided to wall
 it off like they do with the iPhone or iPad, I would voice my opinion here
 as well about it.
 
 
 PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND AIR YOUR
 PERSONAL VENDETTAS.
 
 
 You seem to be the one the typing in all caps. The fact is, the 4
 SDK license may not be a permanent one, and the more heat placed on Steve
 Jobs and Apple over it, the more there is a chance for Apple to change their
 mind. It's happened before where they've changed their mind based on outside
 pressure-- it can happen again.
 
 
 I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___ better. I
 don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think it's
 wrong. I don't care what your damn opinions are.
 
 JUST STOP
 
 
 Tom, it's a user list where we discuss issues relative to RunRev. I've paid
 significant dollars and invested time for RevMobile in order to program for
 iPad, only to have Steve Jobs retroactively change the license agreement
 against cross platform tools for iPhone/iPad. I am sorry you're having such
 a tough time with this. Why don't you try not reading comments posted by me
 from now on?
 
 Maybe that will help.
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Thomas,

I had a recent chat with another list member, and he informs me you have
many clients who use Apple products, specifically iPhone, and perhaps you
may be more sensitive to Apple's point of view because of it. I can
certainly understand your desire to not create a sense of fear in all of
this.

Hey, I'm OK with Apple products. I absolutely LOVE my iPhone-- single most
amazing device I've owned since my first 128K Mac. I release all my apps on
both Windows and Mac. I'm just OK with my iPad-- still I use it all the
time.

But, what I'm most concerned about is the very future of our beloved RunRev.
As you may know, I haven't posted on this or the Improve list for quite some
time, but am doing so because this current issue of Apple's revisionist
licensing has the potential to really affect us all in a HUGE way.

After all, this new license is in the iPhone 4.0 SDK, not 1.0 or 2.0 or 3.0.
This decision, however wrong in my eyes, should have been made a very long
time ago. Many existing tools vendors and their customers and THEIR
customers are affected-- to the tune of hundreds of thousands of users and
millions of dollars. If successful, it sets an industry precedence which can
effectively treat all cross-platform dev tools (RunRev included) like
outlaws-- in all industries, on all OS'es.

I'm blogging about this at http://www.chipp.com. I'm commenting about it in
others blogs, too. This is very serious stuff. I'm not trying to spread FUD
but to try and help put pressure on Apple to rethink their very destructive
positioning on all of this.

I really am sorry if you are offended, my intention was not to do so. I
still will defend what I see as a clear injustice by Steve Jobs to the rest
of the cross-platform community in general, and to Rev in particular.
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

-Original Message-
From: Thomas McGrath III mcgra...@mac.com
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 2:02 PM
To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

I'm am really getting so sick of listening to this crap. Please go join some 
APPLE hating, Steve Jobs hating list. WILL YOU PLEASE.

It's getting to be too much, staying out of this freaking rhetoric when the 
comments go down this direction. What with the Hitler references and EVIL 
comments and BLAH BLAH BLAH 

I use a CROSS-PLATFORM tool call RunRev and I think this has gone far beyond 
what I am willing to put up with. We have Macintosh developers and Windows 
developers and Linux developers and soon we are going to have Google developers 
and Maemo developers. We here on this list need to set an example of true 
cross-platform respect towards each others platform of choice. 

PLEASE STOP USING OUR USE REVOLUTION LIST TO ATTACK AND DEFAME AND AIR YOUR 
PERSONAL VENDETTAS.

I don't care it you hate Apple. I don't care if you like ___ better. I 
don't care if you don't like Steve Jobs. I don't care if you think it's wrong. 
I don't care what your damn opinions are.

JUST STOP

Tom McGrath
On May 6, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

 What do you think RevMobile is? It does exactly THAT. It's just that Jobs
 doesn't allow for THAT.

 On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Randall Lee Reetz
 rand...@randallreetz.comwrote:

 Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C source
 translator.  If stacks could be run through an extractor that did this and
 output objective C project document set, then it would be trivial for the
 user to end up with an apple complient app.
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Really?  It takes a rev stack and converts all content into OBJECTIVE C source. 
 Inserts it into the apple blessed ipad IDE, and then compiles an app in the 
apple blessed IDE?  How would apple know or care where the app spent its early 
years?  I don't think that is how revmobile works.  Not exactly.  Am I wrong?  
Does a revmoblile user have to have a mac running the apple blessed IDE?

-Original Message-
From: Chipp Walters ch...@chipp.com
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 2:01 PM
To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

What do you think RevMobile is? It does exactly THAT. It's just that Jobs
doesn't allow for THAT.

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Randall Lee Reetz
rand...@randallreetz.comwrote:

 Years ago I asked why no xtalk environment had built an xtalk to C source
 translator.  If stacks could be run through an extractor that did this and
 output objective C project document set, then it would be trivial for the
 user to end up with an apple complient app.
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-06 Thread Colin Holgate


On May 6, 2010, at 8:04 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote:

 Really?  It takes a rev stack and converts all content into OBJECTIVE C 
 source.  Inserts it into the apple blessed ipad IDE, and then compiles an app 
 in the apple blessed IDE?  How would apple know or care where the app spent 
 its early years?


With your example workflow they would have no way to know where the app started 
its early years, but you would still have gone against the agreement, because 
it didn't originate as Objective-C.
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

When I start any project, I think for a while, I write some things down, I draw 
some flow charts, I go on a bike ride, I talk to people, I write a paper 
prototype, and then I code.

-Original Message-
From: Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 5:12 PM
To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

On May 6, 2010, at 8:04 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote:

 Really?  It takes a rev stack and converts all content into OBJECTIVE C 
 source.  Inserts it into the apple blessed ipad IDE, and then compiles an app 
 in the apple blessed IDE?  How would apple know or care where the app spent 
 its early years?

With your example workflow they would have no way to know where the app started 
its early years, but you would still have gone against the agreement, because 
it didn't originate as Objective-C.
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?


Randall wrote:

 Really?  It takes a rev stack and converts all content into
 OBJECTIVE C source.  Inserts it into the apple blessed ipad
 IDE, and then compiles an app in the apple blessed IDE?  How
 would apple know or care where the app spent its early years?
 I don't think that is how revmobile works.  Not exactly.  Am
 I wrong?

You're iPhone seems to be preventing you from reading many of the posts 
here.


This has been addressed before, twice just today - here's one:
http://mail.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2010-May/139234.html

The rest of the archives from this list are available here:
http://mail.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2010-May/date.html

In the interest of bandwidth I won't answer that question any more.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
 revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-06 Thread David C.

  3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
  prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
  Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++,
  or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and
  only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and
  directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications
  that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation
  or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).

Question:
Is it even possible for folks running Windows to use the Blessed API
as required -or- are they completely locked out of the development
cycle all together, sans Mac hardware ownership?

I no longer on a Mac (sad to say) but have also never found a Windows
version of the Blessed SDK to be downloaded from Apple should I even
want to try.

If that is the case, the new development license is even worse,
requiring a hardware purchase in order to have the ability to create
software for any of their products.

Inquiring minds would like to know... ;-)

Best regards,
David C.
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-06 Thread Sarah Reichelt

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 10:24 AM, David C. davidoco...@gmail.com wrote:
  3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
  prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
  Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++,
  or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and
  only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and
  directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications
  that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation
  or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).

 Question:
 Is it even possible for folks running Windows to use the Blessed API
 as required -or- are they completely locked out of the development
 cycle all together, sans Mac hardware ownership?


No, Apple's development tools are Mac only.

Cheers,
Sarah
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

I read your note richard.  It is very detailed and differs substantially from 
another person's explanation which said it works exactly as I have guessed, 
translating to C source.  Just trying to get to the actual method as that might 
allow compliance.

-Original Message-
From: Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.com
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 5:22 PM
To: How to use Revolution use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall wrote:

  Really?  It takes a rev stack and converts all content into
  OBJECTIVE C source.  Inserts it into the apple blessed ipad
  IDE, and then compiles an app in the apple blessed IDE?  How
  would apple know or care where the app spent its early years?
  I don't think that is how revmobile works.  Not exactly.  Am
  I wrong?

You're iPhone seems to be preventing you from reading many of the posts 
here.

This has been addressed before, twice just today - here's one:
http://mail.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2010-May/139234.html

The rest of the archives from this list are available here:
http://mail.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/2010-May/date.html

In the interest of bandwidth I won't answer that question any more.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World
  Rev training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
  Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
  revJournal blog: http://revjournal.com/blog.irv
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

Randall,

Hopefully the following can lend some perspective to you on this situation.

Previously, I misspoke. RevMobile compiles Rev code to an iPhone standalone,
which then can be run on the Mac only iPhone simulator. If you sign up for
RevMobile, you must also purchase a $99 Apple developer license and of
course have a Mac to run it on.

The key here is that RevMobile compiles to an iPhone compatible binary, just
like the latest CS5 Flash application does (or did, as Adobe has formally
pulled the plug on supporting the iPhone compiler). And just like Flash CS5,
the newly compiled code successfully bypasses the PREVIOUS license
limitation of no interpreted code-- even though many games evidently use Lua
scripts within them. Not sure what Apple thinks of that:
http://blog.anscamobile.com/2010/04/lua-the-lingua-franca-of-iphone-games/

So, while Rev (and Flash and many other dev platforms for iPhone) compile
directly to a binary, they are still in violation of the NEW SDK 4.0
recently released license which now states:

Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or
JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written
in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the
Documented APIs

So, now binary and compiled apps not originally written in Objective-C, C,
C++ will not be accepted by Apple. Platforms which deliver Javascript (web
browser) apps, like PhoneGap are still allowed. A legal interpretation of
the SDK 4.0 as currently written pretty much puts Flash, and Rev, and many
others, out of the business of app development for iPhone/iPad.

So, originally Apple wanted to discourage interpreted languages, like
Revtalk, Actionscript, and others from access to the iPhone. Of course all
the companies understood the rules, and many, like Rev, spent major
resources, and time  trying to comply by creating compatible standalone
binaries. Not an insignificant task. And none of them, or their customers,
or their customers customers had any notion the rules would or even could
change.

As soon as Jobs saw the new Flash CS5 (in the form of Flash CS5-- of which
I'm told there are already a hundred of so apps in the AppStore under the
previous SDK license), he rewrote the license to make sure none of these
applications could now be used. I say Jobs and not Apple, because if you
have followed this closely, you would know Jobs is the one behind it all.
Whether or not you agree with him is up to you.

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Randall Lee Reetz
rand...@randallreetz.comwrote:

 Really?  It takes a rev stack and converts all content into OBJECTIVE C
 source.  Inserts it into the apple blessed ipad IDE, and then compiles an
 app in the apple blessed IDE?  How would apple know or care where the app
 spent its early years?  I don't think that is how revmobile works.  Not
 exactly.  Am I wrong?  Does a revmoblile user have to have a mac running the
 apple blessed IDE?
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Re: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-06 Thread Roger . E . Eller

Sarah Reichelt sarah.reich...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 10:24 AM, David C. davidoco...@gmail.com wrote:
  3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
  prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
... truncated original ...
 Question:
 Is it even possible for folks running Windows to use the Blessed API
 as required -or- are they completely locked out of the development
 cycle all together, sans Mac hardware ownership?


 No, Apple's development tools are Mac only.

 Cheers,
 Sarah

Is it possible on non-Apple hardware?... a google search says
yes (technically), by building a hackintosh.  But we all know that in the
professional world we must follow the rules.  For personal use, most web
sources suggest that the nerdly exercise of hackintosh building should be
limited to that, a learning exercise, and not be started without first
buying OS X from an Apple retailer. They also state that the resulting
non-apple machine should not be used for any kind of professional work when
running OS X. Depending on the machine, reviews vary about the level of
compatibility, but many hobbyists report that it works better than you
might think.  I am in no way suggesting that you consider it because it
would violate the EULA. It makes me wonder however, what would happen if
Microsoft suddenly decided to legally demand that their OS run on anything
BUT Apple hardware. Wouldn't that be a hoot?

~Roger Eller
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How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?

2010-05-06 Thread Kurt Kaufman

Chipp Walters:
...So, while Rev (and Flash and many other dev platforms for iPhone) compile
directly to a binary, they are still in violation of the NEW SDK 4.0
recently released license...

Thanks for the summary, Chipp.  I was unaware that Apple had changed the rules 
**after essentially promising something else**-- not too different from a bait 
and switch.  I can see why developers might hesitate to create applications 
for a platform for which the powers-that-be might set up future additional 
roadblocks.
I guess Apple feels that the general public really doesn't care, and (Apple) is 
not overly-concerned about alienating multi-platform developers.  On a purely 
business level, who am I to question their strategy?  But I do think that it is 
inappropriate of Apple to suddenly shift gears and leave hanging companies who 
have invested significant time and resources to Apple mobile platform 
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RE: How exactly does runrev for ipad/iphone work?