Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
About point 2. : As long as on-rev give us a total control on both our document-root directory and our rev-application's .irev code, why would we need root access to a mutualised server ? Just would be an inacceptable security hole and the direct way to loose the best sand-box the server integrity need. I have to remember to take time to sign-in ;-) Just my 2 cts, -- Pierre Sahores mobile : 06 03 95 77 70 www.sahores-conseil.com Le 21 avr. 09 à 02:28, George C Brackett a écrit : I had a couple of questions that Heather answered, and others may be interested: 1. On-Rev will ultimately include domain registration services, as many other hosts do. 2. On-Rev will NOT offer root access (or near root access using sudo) to an account via SSH. I'm glad to hear the first answer, but not the second. Still thinking... George ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
Can we use ssh to compile and install binaries? I've had to do this a number of times with my Dreamhost account for instance - mainly to compile command line programs to be used with (Rev) cgi's. I can;t remember the details - but I must have used my user account and not sudo / root. For instance if I were to fully move over Id have 2 command line aplications i'd want to comile from soure and then I'd need to install MediaWiki - I should be able to do that with the existing ssh access - no? 2009/4/22 Pierre Sahores psaho...@free.fr As long as on-rev give us a total control on both our document-root directory and our rev-application's .irev code, why would we need root access to a mutualised server ? Just would be an inacceptable security hole and the direct way to loose the best sand-box the server integrity need. So would like to know if there are any limitations regarding ssh access - as Ill have to decide between Dreamhost and On-Rev - or to keep both :) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
Yes, you can. I can do without sudo/root, but I can't do without SSH access. I've been thinking through what I actually use to manage my multiple domains, and command-line access -- to run scripts directly, to execute shell commands, to be sure I know for sure the contents of any directory, to easily edit such things as .htaccess files and other . files, in short, to have Unix/Linux/Darwin available -- is the minimum ability I want. George On Apr 22, 2009, at 10:14 AM, David Bovill wrote: Can we use ssh to compile and install binaries? I've had to do this a number of times with my Dreamhost account for instance - mainly to compile command line programs to be used with (Rev) cgi's. I can;t remember the details - but I must have used my user account and not sudo / root. For instance if I were to fully move over Id have 2 command line aplications i'd want to comile from soure and then I'd need to install MediaWiki - I should be able to do that with the existing ssh access - no? 2009/4/22 Pierre Sahores psaho...@free.fr As long as on-rev give us a total control on both our document-root directory and our rev-application's .irev code, why would we need root access to a mutualised server ? Just would be an inacceptable security hole and the direct way to loose the best sand-box the server integrity need. So would like to know if there are any limitations regarding ssh access - as Ill have to decide between Dreamhost and On-Rev - or to keep both :) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
On 22.04.09 at 10:59 -0400 George C Brackett apparently wrote: Yes, you can. I can do without sudo/root, but I can't do without SSH access. I've been thinking through what I actually use to manage my multiple domains, and command-line access -- to run scripts directly, to execute shell commands, to be sure I know for sure the contents of any directory, to easily edit such things as .htaccess files and other . files, in short, to have Unix/Linux/Darwin available -- is the minimum ability I want. George You can edit .htaccess and other files through cpanel. Not as comfy as using the tools you are used to but works. Robert ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
Thanks -- I didn't know that. George On Apr 22, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Robert Brenstein wrote: On 22.04.09 at 10:59 -0400 George C Brackett apparently wrote: Yes, you can. I can do without sudo/root, but I can't do without SSH access. I've been thinking through what I actually use to manage my multiple domains, and command-line access -- to run scripts directly, to execute shell commands, to be sure I know for sure the contents of any directory, to easily edit such things as .htaccess files and other . files, in short, to have Unix/Linux/ Darwin available -- is the minimum ability I want. George You can edit .htaccess and other files through cpanel. Not as comfy as using the tools you are used to but works. Robert ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
On 22/4/09 16:59, George C Brackett gbrack...@luceatlux.com wrote: Yes, you can. I can do without sudo/root, but I can't do without SSH access. I've been thinking through what I actually use to manage my multiple domains, and command-line access -- to run scripts directly, to execute shell commands, to be sure I know for sure the contents of any directory, to easily edit such things as .htaccess files and other . files, in short, to have Unix/Linux/Darwin available -- is the minimum ability I want. A little more on this one: its basically about security. We have to administer the systems via SSH. This means that simply opening SSH to all users would pose a security risk. Obviously its perfectly possibly to secure SSH and we want to take the time to make sure that get this right, providing the functionality that you need, with the security you expect. We are going to provide a shell experience within the On-Rev client, which should answer your needs and help provide the complete web- management experience we're envisaging from the client. However, that's not arrived yet, and we appreciate that you need server access. Short term we will provide SSH access on a request basis to customers on an IP address restricted basis: if you can't live without it, simply drop us a note with your username and IP address to supp...@on-rev.com and we'll enable SSH for you. Longer term expect the On-Rev client to provide shell access. We'll also keep the option of SSH under review. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ ke...@runrev.com ~ http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
Thanks so much, Kevin, for taking time out from getting ready for your very important opportunity to present at the International World Wide Web Conference in Madrid! I appreciate the time and the thinking, and look forward to working with On-Rev. Break a leg at the Conference! George On Apr 22, 2009, at 11:59 AM, Kevin Miller wrote: On 22/4/09 16:59, George C Brackett gbrack...@luceatlux.com wrote: Yes, you can. I can do without sudo/root, but I can't do without SSH access. I've been thinking through what I actually use to manage my multiple domains, and command-line access -- to run scripts directly, to execute shell commands, to be sure I know for sure the contents of any directory, to easily edit such things as .htaccess files and other . files, in short, to have Unix/Linux/Darwin available -- is the minimum ability I want. A little more on this one: its basically about security. We have to administer the systems via SSH. This means that simply opening SSH to all users would pose a security risk. Obviously its perfectly possibly to secure SSH and we want to take the time to make sure that get this right, providing the functionality that you need, with the security you expect. We are going to provide a shell experience within the On-Rev client, which should answer your needs and help provide the complete web- management experience we're envisaging from the client. However, that's not arrived yet, and we appreciate that you need server access. Short term we will provide SSH access on a request basis to customers on an IP address restricted basis: if you can't live without it, simply drop us a note with your username and IP address to supp...@on-rev.com and we'll enable SSH for you. Longer term expect the On-Rev client to provide shell access. We'll also keep the option of SSH under review. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ ke...@runrev.com ~ http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
Hi George, I had a couple of questions that Heather answered, and others may be interested: 1. On-Rev will ultimately include domain registration services, as many other hosts do. That'ws very good news! I must confess I am a bit lost in my switch... Any timeframe for this service? Or should I also write a mail to Heather? ... George Best Klaus -- Klaus Major kl...@major-k.de http://www.major-k.de ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
Heather didn't give a time-frame, or I would have included it in my message. It was 'soon,' as I recall. George On Apr 21, 2009, at 3:31 AM, Klaus Major wrote: Hi George, I had a couple of questions that Heather answered, and others may be interested: 1. On-Rev will ultimately include domain registration services, as many other hosts do. That'ws very good news! I must confess I am a bit lost in my switch... Any timeframe for this service? Or should I also write a mail to Heather? ... George Best Klaus -- Klaus Major kl...@major-k.de http://www.major-k.de ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
On Apr 21, 2009, at 1:16 AM, Phil Davis wrote: Colin Holgate wrote: What does SSH give you that you don't get with the secure disk image access? I assume when you say secure disk image access you're talking about WebDAV, which is what on-rev offers. I think I was probably thinking more of SFTP rather than SSH itself. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
Phil's answer is a very good one; I'd like to expand on it a bit. When you log in to a server via SSH, you have command-line access to it, meaning that in essence you are sitting in front of it running the equivalent of Terminal on the Mac or Run on Windows (I think that's right). Many things that I normally do using SSH can be done via WebDAV or even in an FTP client, in particular copying, moving, renaming, deleting and changing the permissions or owners of files. I would feel hampered, however, by the inability to execute shell scripts directly (they could be executed indirectly using Rev shell scripting in a web page thoug) and to use the full panoply of unix commands to manage my site(s). The speed of operations is also usually much greater, since very little communication is involved and repetitive actions, like deleting a directory full of sub-directories, are virtually instantaneous. That power comes with considerable risk, however, and the risk greatly increases when you are able to assume, temporarily or permanently, the power of the 'root' user, who can do ANYTHING. (To become the 'root' user temporarily, one prefaces commands with 'sudo', meaning Switch User to DO as root, more or less.) I have that power on my own Macbook Pro machine, and I'm accustomed to it. But I can certainly understand when a host decides to limit root access, use of sudo, or even SSH: it greatly decreases the possibility that one user's mistake -- or malevolence -- will bring about disaster. Some hosts, such as the one I use, offer virtual hosting environments, where the user's space is segregated by some clever programming from everyone else's, so the user is in effect using a completely separate server. In those environments, root access or limited sudo use can be provided, with the caveat that the user had better be knowledgeable and careful if she wants to keep from destroying everything. (As an example, a root user typing rm -rf / on the command line and pressing return will delete the entire operating system and all data.) An even greater power comes with the leasing of an actual server computer maintained by the host: in this situation, you have the same power you would have if the server was located in your basement. So, if you need more power and access, there are ways to get it, but you and the host have to assume substantial additional responsibility and risk. For many and probably most website owners/ developers, a more limited environment such as On-Revs is perfectly adequate. I hope this makes my interest in SSH and root/sudo more clear! George On Apr 21, 2009, at 1:16 AM, Phil Davis wrote: Colin Holgate wrote: What does SSH give you that you don't get with the secure disk image access? Hi Colin, I assume when you say secure disk image access you're talking about WebDAV, which is what on-rev offers. In a nutshell: - SSH gives you the ability to execute any line command known to the server. You have a user account on the server and can log into it and do whatever you know how to do via the command line, including the setting of server properties, the running of scripts, etc. - WebDAV lets you mount a server-side folder on your computer as though it were an external HD, and you can use it like one (except upload/download speeds are are subject to your internet connection speed, unlike an external HD!). So WebDAV's functionality is limited to file services, but you have a GUI for it. I wish on-rev had SSH. However, its absence is partially compensated for by the power of Rev code in irev pages, if indeed the server version of Rev will give us abilities like those of the desktop versions to sense and control similar kinds of things. -- Phil Davis PDS Labs Professional Software Development http://pdslabs.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
Thanks for that info George. I can understand not giving root access via SSH on a shared hosting environment but do you actually get any SSH access with on-rev? Can't find a reference on the website. regards alex George C Brackett wrote: I had a couple of questions that Heather answered, and others may be interested: 1.On-Rev will ultimately include domain registration services, as many other hosts do. 2.On-Rev will NOT offer root access (or near root access using sudo) to an account via SSH. I'm glad to hear the first answer, but not the second. Still thinking... George ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
I don't think so - my attempts get this response: ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host Best, Mark Smith On 21 Apr 2009, at 02:00, Alex Shaw wrote: Thanks for that info George. I can understand not giving root access via SSH on a shared hosting environment but do you actually get any SSH access with on-rev? Can't find a reference on the website. regards alex George C Brackett wrote: I had a couple of questions that Heather answered, and others may be interested: 1.On-Rev will ultimately include domain registration services, as many other hosts do. 2.On-Rev will NOT offer root access (or near root access using sudo) to an account via SSH. I'm glad to hear the first answer, but not the second. Still thinking... George ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
What does SSH give you that you don't get with the secure disk image access? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
Hi Colin In this case, I'm not sure what you mean by secure disk image access but SSH is useful for debugging traditional scripting languages (bash, php, ruby etc). You could compile debug on your own install of Linux and then upload to on-rev but as anyone who has used Linux knows, not all Linux installs are equal. Library dependencies are the main issue. regards alex Colin Holgate wrote: What does SSH give you that you don't get with the secure disk image access? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Deciding about On-Rev
Colin Holgate wrote: What does SSH give you that you don't get with the secure disk image access? Hi Colin, I assume when you say secure disk image access you're talking about WebDAV, which is what on-rev offers. In a nutshell: - SSH gives you the ability to execute any line command known to the server. You have a user account on the server and can log into it and do whatever you know how to do via the command line, including the setting of server properties, the running of scripts, etc. - WebDAV lets you mount a server-side folder on your computer as though it were an external HD, and you can use it like one (except upload/download speeds are are subject to your internet connection speed, unlike an external HD!). So WebDAV's functionality is limited to file services, but you have a GUI for it. I wish on-rev had SSH. However, its absence is partially compensated for by the power of Rev code in irev pages, if indeed the server version of Rev will give us abilities like those of the desktop versions to sense and control similar kinds of things. -- Phil Davis PDS Labs Professional Software Development http://pdslabs.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
