Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
You either: 1) Let me know that you want to join the blog (i.e. be a semi-regular contributor), and I add you or 2) You send your single entry to me and I'll add it. The point here was to exercise control over the content and presentation so that it's usable. If you choose to join you can post without sending it through me first. -- http://taoofrunrev.blogspot.com http://taoof4d.blogspot.com http://4dwishlist.blogspot.com On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Just out of interest: does the Rev team contribute to the list? Just wondering. Also I didn't want to contact them yet as we are still evaluating the software and I'm sure they are deep in code land... fixing? Welcome to the Revolution, Peter. Yes, the team does occasionally contribute to this list, but not in general the engineers, who as you surmise are deep in codeland and that¹s where we like to keep them. If you have specific issues you want the team to address, an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] is your second line of exploration, ideally after posting here and letting the community whittle down your issues :) As I'm sure you appreciate, we are a small team, and we need to stay very focussed on getting the important stuff done, like actually fixing the issues the community is concerned about. I'm sure you also would like to visit bugzilla: http://support.runrev.com/bugzilla And post any new and well defined bugs you may have there. We greatly appreciate this feedback. Rev is still working on getting the IDE as user friendly and rock solid as everyone would like, but I think most long term members would agree we've made great strides in this direction. We continue to work on it as our top priority. Thanks for the interesting discussion, and I hope all the clear issues that have emerged are either already residing in bugzilla or about to be added for our engineers attention, Warm regards Heather Customer support and listmom -- ** For a faster response to all licensing, support, and technical issues, please now send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** Heather Nagey ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools Tel +44 (0) 870 747 1165 Fax +44 (0) 845 4588487 ~~~ Check our web site for new Revolution editions special offers ~~~ ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
IT'S THE TAO! Anyway, if I could get some of you to submit some of the well-known (but not-so-well-documented) issues for the Tao Blog it would be nice. You can view the Tao of Runtime Revolution at taoofrunrev.blogspot.com You can email me here, or if you think you might be a more frequent contributor, you can email me and join the project. -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, This is good. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
On 4/10/05 8:48 AM, Mikey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IT'S THE TAO! Anyway, if I could get some of you to submit some of the well-known (but not-so-well-documented) issues for the Tao Blog it would be nice. How do you submit an issue? I went to taoofrunrev.blogspot.com and don't see a way to add a new one. Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
On Apr 8, 2005, at 9:19 PM, Peter Armstrong wrote: Good luck, Ill keep looking out for script editor fixes and improvements. In the meantime, if any serious programmers can tell me how to use BBedit with Rev then Id much appreciate it. Seems the IDE is a very leaky tank but the engine is pretty stable. Download mlxEditor at http://www.mindlube.com/developer/. This will allow you to edit scripts in BBEdit. I have a language module available at http://mangomultimedia.com/developer/revolution/ which provides some basic syntax coloring and populates the function menu. -- Trevor DeVore Blue Mango Multimedia [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Hi Peter, Welcome to Revolution. Sorry you're having so many problems. Reminds me when I first starting trying to integreate VB scripts with the Visual InterDev and not knowing what I was doing, got very upset... Of the many issues you complain about, some are part of learning how to use Rev. Sorry. As Richard says, there are other script editors out there, but all of them come with a learning curve. And, there are also many of us who are developing Professional applications using the IDE you so quickly dismiss. I think a bit of patience and perseverance may go a long way to solving your problems. For instance, this past week I built a font rendering engine and font editor, with full anti-aliasing support. Of course there were some hurdles to deal with. A couple emails to support and this list helped solve the problems. Richard's correct about the ROI, if you can get your head around the technology (which some people have a harder time doing). Now regarding your concerns. One thing to remember, is that unlike most all other script platforms, the RR IDE was built entirely with Transcript. This is a testament to just how powerful the engine is. Peter Armstrong wrote: 01 Going to single handler view, closing the script then opening again, then back to multi-handler view lost ALL MY STACK SCRIPT. EMPTY. THEN OTHER SCRIPTS IN THE STACK APPEARED TO BE EMPTY TOO! ALL EMPTY!? I don't know about this one, as the first thing I do when I open my copy is set it to multi-handler view. Been doing that for years, and I haven't had the need to post in all caps about it ;-) If you're worrying about losing data, check out my free altArchive plugin at http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit2/altPluginCover/about.htm 02 Going to 'single handler' view doesn't parse the last handler, handler name shows but content appears empty. Again, I stay primarily with the multi-handler view. So, this issue isn't a 'deal killer' for me. 03 Syntax coloring doesn't work properly (not everything is parsed correctly) and ends up looking like a handful of colored balloons... I needed to customize colors to make any sense of this. The colorization of scripts is something not supported by the engine, so the RR team creates a custom property set to hold this data. Sometimes, the set is cleared out, especially after building a standalone. I have a plugin altClean which removes all of these custom properties and reduces the file sizes significantly. I, agree, the parsing doesn't always color correctly. Try using the tab key to help auto format. Jerry Daniels has a script editor called 'Constellation' which does a much better job. It's currently in beta and should be released at RevCon West. 04 On some occasions (when a modal dialog is open, an error occurs?) dialog after dialog repeatedly appears warning that 'can't edit while executing'. Seemed to appear three times? Yep, that's a problem, you can't edit a script during execution. You need to control-period and terminate the current script which is running, then edit and save your script. Of course, I'm not aware of any other language which allows you to edit the script which is currently executing. I'm sure Andre or Dar will correct me here :-) 05 Pre-emptive typing seems to only parse some of the keyword tokens? I can't work out what is parsed and what is not: functions, constants...? For example 'openstack' is parsed, 'itemDel' isn't? (Actually it did parse once, then it didn't the second time?) Don't know. Again, not a feature I use, but you can right click on any token in your script to open the Reference manualthough it doesn't always get it right. There are other ref manuals out there too. Daniels and Sanke both have one. 06 On another occasion all my script formatting (bold etc) was lost. Something happened, I opened and all my careful formatting was GONE. Yep, see my comment above. Good idea not to use the formatting capability. 07 Windows all over the place. I found I was constantly opening up the variable watcher, shuffling windows around (I'm on a 22 inch monitor), resizing, closing opening trying to see what is going on. Surely during development these could be organized properly, perhaps with variable watcher attached to the side or bottom of the script window with and expander triangle? I found I had to constantly expand the width of this to see things properly. Most of us settle into a window configuration we like. I prefer using the application browser to the right of the revMenubar, the toolbar along the left, my stack windows just below the revMenubar, the script editor below that, the msg box right below the app browser, and the variable watcher under the msg box. Course, you're mileage may vary. Also, I set it up in Prefs under Script Editor: Hide Palettes OFF Hide Message Box OFF Hide Errors OFF 08 Lots of incorrect errors. I got 'Can't find Handler' when in fact it was an error in the script of the stack handler!!
RE: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Peter, I've mentioned a million times and as usual future complains dont seem to be an issue ;) The script editor, although rather simple, is not so bad once you get used to avoiding its traps. But it's much better than it previously was... I made a much superior editor to the old MetaCard editor years ago and no one really helped or motivated me to make it more competent and runrev 2.5 solved the majority of its pains. But wait a few and I'll release bliss to your scripting senses (debugging features will not be ready yet though). Chipp, Im glad to hear that there is one more editor coming! Competition is healthy and sign of a good market ;) cheers Xavier http://monsieurx.com/runrev -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Armstrong Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 06:20 To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Subject: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES Hello, I'm new to Revolution (Rev 2.5.1: Mac OSX 10.3.8). After a few associates mentioned Rev I thought I'd spend a week or so using the software, looking to migrate a few of our projects and team to Rev. THE SCRIPT EDITOR IS A JOKE AND HAS SERIOUS ISSUES!! How can you expect any programmer to take your product seriously when the bsacred/b script editor has SO MANY BUGS!! I became wary of it when small niggly things went wrong, then I LOST a whole bunch of code! Here's just the top 10 issues I found, most on the 2nd day: 01 Going to single handler view, closing the script then opening again, then back to multi-handler view lost ALL MY STACK SCRIPT. EMPTY. THEN OTHER SCRIPTS IN THE STACK APPEARED TO BE EMPTY TOO! ALL EMPTY!? 02 Going to 'single handler' view doesn't parse the last handler, handler name shows but content appears empty. 03 Syntax coloring doesn't work properly (not everything is parsed correctly) and ends up looking like a handful of colored balloons... I needed to customize colors to make any sense of this. 04 On some occasions (when a modal dialog is open, an error occurs?) dialog after dialog repeatedly appears warning that 'can't edit while executing'. Seemed to appear three times? 05 Pre-emptive typing seems to only parse some of the keyword tokens? I can't work out what is parsed and what is not: functions, constants...? For example 'openstack' is parsed, 'itemDel' isn't? (Actually it did parse once, then it didn't the second time?) Don't know. 06 On another occasion all my script formatting (bold etc) was lost. Something happened, I opened and all my careful formatting was GONE. 07 Windows all over the place. I found I was constantly opening up the variable watcher, shuffling windows around (I'm on a 22 inch monitor), resizing, closing opening trying to see what is going on. Surely during development these could be organized properly, perhaps with variable watcher attached to the side or bottom of the script window with and expander triangle? I found I had to constantly expand the width of this to see things properly. 08 Lots of incorrect errors. I got 'Can't find Handler' when in fact it was an error in the script of the stack handler!! What sort of message is that!? Wasted time trying to work out why the message wasnt being passed down the message path. 09 I found sending more than one parameter in a function call from the message box only accepted the first parameter. Fine if sent from a button but no good if sent from message box. 2nd, 3rd etc parameters are ignored. 10 Escape doesn't close the window, it puts some weird symbol in the script window. The 'double-enter' to accept and save a script is kinda weird, why can't you stick to a more conforming 'save and close' system? After enjoying your software my confidence rating dropped to ZERO. Get it together, these glaring issues make your product look like a beta or late alpha. I don't mind issues in other areas but the SCRIPT EDITOR IS SACRED! Doesn't anyone else notice these things? How long has Rev been around? How can I write code if I can't SAFELY edit without worrying about code loss? I know some will brand me as a 'disgruntled programmer', however I'm just so used to a clean SAFE scripting environment that Rev made me feel VERY UNSURE of the environment. Id love to switch our team over an excellent and extensive set of script functions and commands -- however I dont trust Rev now. Perhaps there is there a way I can edit in BBedit and then save back to Rev??? At least Id know that the script is safe, even if my code has bugs. On the up side: once out of the nightmare script editor/ debugger, code and samples all seemed to execute well. Excellent speed. I see that you keep adding and adding more to Rev, why not SUBTRACT things that dont
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Dear fellow Revolution Programmers. Thank you so much for your kind help! I must thank you all for your positive input. Your understanding has helped my early frustration with this software. I guess the main point of reference is other script editing environments (both scripted and compiled) that I've had to deal with over the past 16 years. Rev has really made me worry about the SAFETY of my code. I'm sitting here testing, learning, then BOOM! Gone. Sure I should have saved two hours ago but I was immersed in an early newbie Rev issue, just some simple code. The backup was several hours of learning ago... This was the SINGLE point that made me churn. I'm sorry to upset the list, not good for a newbie. Thank you Trevor for you help running scripts externally, I'll give that a go shortly, I know BBEdit and that will promise more hope until the Script Editor in the IDE is fixed properly (REV team??). You are very kind. Thanks Chipp, all very helpful comments. I'll try patience (I was until I lost code, that hasn't happened for years!) and perhaps try the BBEdit path. Chipp I'm sorry but I don't feel handlers not appearing and code disappearing is 'part of learning how to use Rev'. Sure I'll never try single handler view ever again, however shouldn't this be disabled or debugged? Poor Dreamcard hopefuls. Richard thanks so much for all the ROI reference. Yes I can see that Rev could be the tool of preference for my team, however I can not see them scripting in the IDE right now. Sure we can figure a way around, but that does not seem to be the correct way, the IDE should be the integrated environment that is supposed to be. I'll try and work out an optimal setup for Rev and see if that works. I know I'm not being flexible in my thinking -- actually I was AMAZED that Rev IDE was built in Rev, an excellent testament to the strength of the Engine -- but I don't usually get a huge list of User Interface issues and bugs after just a few days testing. Maybe Rev IDE has expanded way too far too fast. Anywhere, anywhere in the IDE major bugs are permitted, just not in the script editor. That's all I think. You know I'll probably be one of the converts shortly, once I figure out what I can trust and what I can't. As Richard pointed out the engine is a relative known, an old stable, so maybe that is where we look for stability and security. Thanks so much for helping me out, very very much appreciated. Funnily enough I realized that on day four of frustrations - the frustrations with bugs not to mention my own code - that I needed to see if anyone else felt the same way. Sad song I sent out but really thought this is poor form. I will stay off the soap box, seems that others realize the script editor is in need of an overhaul... thus the alternatives. If I think back to HyperCard, SuperCard, VB, Director, Flash and even early Code Warrior I can't remember my code disappearing. Well maybe with VideoWorks Interactive So enough. I'll keep quiet and hope that one of the Rev team comes back with some sort of validation on this rant. Or maybe not. My team of five is only a five pack but I'm sure there are others out there that may cross your path and find similar issues. Rev you have an amazing engine to build on, you have done an excellent job building a complete IDE inside it, however if you want to compete, get the simple things sorted first. Don't you think? Regards, Peter Armstrong __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Hi, I've been using RunRev on and off for about a year now. I must say this I kind of agree with you about the Script Editor. However I really don't see it as that big an issue if you just follow the following rules: 1. Don't use the Single Handler Mode. It's annoying because I like the locals, globals and parameters tabs that show you what the handler is using. 2. Under Mac OS (9 and X) there seem to be a lot of window refresh problems when switching to Single Handler Mode anyway, e.g. to see the code properly you have to click the window zoom button else the left edges get cut off. 3. I have taken to using the Apply Scrtipt and Save Stack Command from the File Menu (wish I could assign this a Command Key) before running a changed script. I also Copy and Paste the Script into a Text File before before I do a big change or I just copy and Paste the whole object into a temp Stack (I always have a temp stack while I am developing in RunRev and Drop all kinds of temp objects and code into it. You can always just Hide the Stack or Delete it before final distribution. You can also use the Enter key (as apposed to the return key) which will Apply the script and then hitting it again will close the window. So to quickly Apply, Save the Whole Stack and Close the Script Window, Use Apply Script and Save Stack and hit Enter. I would just love it if there were another File Menu Command Apply, Save Stack and Close Script and it had a Command Key assigned to it. Is there any way to patch the IDE to do this. 4. Yes, I agree, loads of windows do seem to appear all over the place. I have two 17 inch monitors and it's really hard to organise and place the IDEs windows where you would like them. For instance I would like all the IDE windows to be on the second screen (which has a higher resoltion) and the App I am working on to be on the Main Monitor (where is is most likely to be when the end user is running the app), but some IDE windows insist on opening on the Main montior instead of the monitor I moved it to last time. This is annoying to say the least! The App Browser does this which is particulary upsetting! 5. I agree, the formatting and colorizations don't work correctly. It's a pain and I wish it were fixed. I don't understand how rect seems always to be colored correctly but rectangle only seems to be colorized at more or less random! I found doing a select all and then manually selecting formatting and colorization sometimes does the trick. 6. There are other editors you could use, I see there is a plugin to allow you to use BBEdit. Does anyone know if there is a plugin available for CodeWarrior. I am looking into this now. I would like to see how I got on using an external editor, it may speed up the whole process, however I don't know how it would work in the debugger 7. Another moan is that the property inspector (and other PopUp windows) do not respond to Command+W, so if you open an inspector by accident and then Command+W to close it again, the wrong window closes!!! Gr If it just ignored the Command+W if a Floating Window had focus it would be nice! I agree that there are some major issues with the Script Editor, and to be honest, the whole way in which scripts are edited, debugged and maintained, should be looked at and completely redesigned/rewritten IMO. The way in which you have grope around in order to find and open a script is not very nice. You can use the revNavigator plug in which helps to EditScripts and takes up much less room on the monitor than the Application Browser. But that only provies fast(er) access to an objects script. The Apply/Save Issues are still there. Also it would be nice to have some kind of Source Control Built into the Scripting Editor/Maintenance System. This is a major advantage of using an IDE/Editor like code warrior. You could create a dummy CodeWarrior Project (and echo it to a source control system) with each file being a script for an RunRev object. The compile/make phase could send these files to RunRev, which would then Compile and Replace the script with the text from the CodeWarrior Compile/Make Process. This would quite a good way of doing things in lue of a better Script Editor/Maintenance system. Is it possible?!! However, with all the issues I have pointed out, it still doesn't put me off using RunRev, I find that I can be much more productive even with there issues and I am sure that they will be addressed and fixed in the fullness of time and I will then be even more productive! I hope that this helped you to get around the annoyances of the Script Editor and that you continue to use RunRev and eventually contribute some useful knowledge to the community. All the Best Dave Hello, I'm new to Revolution (Rev 2.5.1: Mac OSX 10.3.8). After a few associates mentioned Rev I thought I'd spend a week or so using the software, looking to migrate a few of our projects and team to Rev. THE SCRIPT EDITOR IS A JOKE AND HAS SERIOUS ISSUES!! How can you
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
On 9.4.2005 10:11, Chipp Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, that's a problem, you can't edit a script during execution. You need to control-period and terminate the current script which is running, then edit and save your script. Of course, I'm not aware of any other language which allows you to edit the script which is currently executing. I'm sure Andre or Dar will correct me here :-) For example: Smalltalk with VisualWorks.Lovely tool (for its time). Many fond memories. But unfortunately that tool while it exists is a bit dead/comatose at the moment. --h Hannu Kokko 99,5% ain't enough ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Peter,
As Richard suggested, you should contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] and see if
they can help you with any of these issues. There's also a Bugzilla
database you can peruse and add to as well.
Another serious bug to look out for is the 'breakpoints' bug. If you
have set breakpoints ('red dot') in your scripts and rename a stack or
stack file, you can bring the whole thing crashing down. Here's why. RR
stores a list of your breakpoints in a special custom prop set, just
like it does the script formatting. It stores it using the long name of
the stack, and if it get's changed, then when it 'looks it up' it can't
find it and undelicately crashes.
The fix is pretty easy, either get in the habit of removing breakpoints,
or use my altClean plugin anytime you change the name(s) of a stack
(thanks Xavier for helping track this down!).
Sorry there are so many 'gotchas', but once you know where the potholes
are, you get in the habit of not 'stepping' in them. It still doesn't
excuse them, but it's nice to know there are a lot less of them now than
there were a year ago.
As I mentioned, the altArchive plugin saves serialized versions of your
code with a single button press. If you're worried about losing code,
that's one solution which is used by many. I can't remember the last
time I lost any substantial scripts.
Please keep asking questions here. There are lots who have been down the
same road and are eager to help.
best,
Chipp
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Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Dear Peter See what a great group of friendly and helpful people there are using Rev! I would wager that on a lot of lists, your posting would have raised hackles and prompted a lot of less than helpful responses. This list is really one of the strengths of using Rev and if you have any problems, there's always this community of incredibly smart, friendly and helpful people to help you out - I see it happen every day. It sometimes feels like having really good 24/7 tech support - come to think of it, I sometimes wonder when these guys actually sleep! If I were you Peter, I'd give Rev another chance and experience for yourself the excellent support you get from the Rev community by letting them help you work through the problems you described. Best Gordon ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
On 9/4/05 5:55 am, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But for a lot of us the engine has delivered an unmatched ROI that more than makes up for any deficiencies in the IDEs available for it. For myself and my clients, the engine is the only thing that matters. We tend to make a lot of our own tools for working with it anyway. I can't say I've been paticularly enamored of any of the IDEs I've worked with for any scripting language, but at least with the Rev engine I have the power I need to roll my own Well said! John Dixon ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Just to let you know that I've been developing in the IDE for years and have never lost code or had most of the problems you described. Bill Vlahos On Apr 9, 2005, at 4:34 AM, Peter Armstrong wrote: Yes I can see that Rev could be the tool of preference for my team, however I can not see them scripting in the IDE right now. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
At 10:44 AM 4/9/2005, you wrote: Just to let you know that I've been developing in the IDE for years and have never lost code or had most of the problems you described. Bill Vlahos On Apr 9, 2005, at 4:34 AM, Peter Armstrong wrote: Yes I can see that Rev could be the tool of preference for my team, however I can not see them scripting in the IDE right now. Rev is BOSS! I came from VB and I like Rev lots better, I have only lost 1 stack with Rev, well it's not totally lost I still have it on my hard drive but when I try to open it Rev shuts down. It was a small stack when I was learning to write and read the registry. No big deal. Never have load a script as someone stated. Oh Yea, I like Rev because it's not Billy Boy infested. I'll be glad when there is a windows like linux OS complete with point click and easy to install. I have received much more help here than I did on the VB egroups. Paul Salyers PS1 - Senior Rep. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Http://ps1.SoftSeven.org ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Since Microsoft decided to assassinate VB6 about 2 years ago, I have been looking for some kind of satisfactory alternative. I quite soon encountered Transcript, which is even more friendly and user-oriented than Basic. I was overjoyed. But since then I have been bugged (if you will excuse the pun) by what to me is an eccentric and confusing IDE/Script Editor. I fully agree with Peter when he says:- these glaring issues make your product look like a beta or late alpha. I don't mind issues in other areas but the SCRIPT EDITOR IS SACRED! -and for this reason I have been terribly frustrated. I have never wholeheartedly adopted RunRev, and probably never will, unless another of Peter's recommendations is finally adopted: I see that you keep adding and adding more to Rev, why not SUBTRACT things that don't work and get the others working properly. As other List members have pointed out, there have been improvements over the last few years, but it is obvious that you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I will never forget what my mathematics teacher wrote in my school report at the age of 11: Robert should not let a pleasing manner be a substitute for real effort. Unfortunately, much of the very friendly advice Peter has received from the List adds up to Don't waste your time complaining about the dangerous state of the road, just drive around the potholes. I note that Peter is apparently already beginning to feel ashamed of himself, and, who knows, he will eventually become just one more sucker who has involved himself in an unfortunate love affair. As for myself, I will crawl back into my usually silent corner again and pray that at least before the century is out (if I live that long), RunRev will have decided to do something about their IDE. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Dear Revolution Community. Thanks so much again for your comments, it is a truly amazing community! One day I hope to contribute back in. My rather heated comments on the buggy IDE are somewhat appeased by a more than helpful community so very generous with their answers and thoughtful comments. Thanks Trevor, the external edit in BBEdit seems to work nicely! At last I can relax and get down to understanding Rev and not worry about my code. An excellent addition (Transcript terms) to BBEdit. Thanks Alex (?) at Mindlube for the great MLXEditor, seems to be the conduit necessary between Rev and the outside world. Great! Nice and easy, works perfectly as far as I can tell. Maybe Rev should build something like this in to the IDE? Bill thanks for your comment that you have been using the IDE for years no problem. Ill try and create a recipe for the code loss I suffered the other day and post it to Bugzie. Seems like it is the Single Handler view, which I was just exploring (I noticed too that it only sometimes loads the local/global variables correctly). Just out of interest: does the Rev team contribute to the list? Just wondering. Also I didn't want to contact them yet as we are still evaluating the software and I'm sure they are deep in code land... fixing? Chipp thanks too for pointing out how Rev handles scripts. I found that there seems to be a custom property (?) that stores the script, formatted. Getting the script of an object (unformatted) is separate from the custom prop that seems just to store a formatted version of it, with an MD5 fingerprint (I assume as a checksum to see if anything has changed). Seems an odd way to do things. Oh well. So I guess the Script Cleaner removes the extra baggage? Does building a standalone do the same? Xavier: is your editor the UltaEditor plug-in? I couldnt find your editor on your page, perhaps I just missed it. (Unfortunately - or fortunately as I see it - I develop on Mac and port-test on our PCs so UltaEditor isnt really an option.) Many many thanks though. Thanks to everyone else, plus the few that didn't want to comment directly on the list, I agree with you. In the end I need to make a simple and quite serious decision: should we spend time and try and develop a project in Rev? And into the future: should we switch our whole team over to Rev? At least with a stable editor I can and will continue evaluating the product without worry. The list has been more than helpful in helping me to drive around the potholes for the time being. For the record: if the List hadn't been so kind and generous, I would have left Rev with a bad taste in my mouth after about a week of testing. My earlier excitement with the power built in to the Rev engine, and my earlier speed tests, would have been lost on a list of issues that can and should be fixed. If getting new customers is part of the Rev teams aim, then perhaps a bit of tidying up would be in order? It seems from the list things have improved somewhat, so there is hope is what I hear. Feature freeze n fix. As a suggestion perhaps the Rev List could start up a small spec for a new script editor? A basic screen layout showing dock-able Variable and Message watcher and a streamlined interface could be a start point. There are plenty of good editors out there we could use as reference ... optimised functional layout and best real estate use. Id certainly be willing to help, however my Transcript skills are rather lacking at this early stage... ROI is a very valid point. Ill be able to look at this later once I get past first base... but I am very impressed with the engine. I wouldnt feel I had a good ROI if I sat my team down and asked them to write a simple script editor as their first project. The breakpoint issue is a fantastic tip, Ill keep that in mind when I have to return to Rev for debugging. Who is the team than developed the Engine? Hats off to this team! Are they still developing it as a separate company? Seems like Metacard no longer exists? Is there a list that tells me what has been recently added to the Engine (and may be buggy), separate from Rev additions? I guess that any command starting with RevCommandName is a transcript equivalent? Is there a way to turn OFF storing the custom property formatted script? Surely this bloats out the stack considerably and from what I can gather (and guess by my loss of data) may have other issues... just to make the scripts look pretty (pretty wild if you turn on default script colorization!). Id opt for the plain Jane version if it saved all the other issues. BTW thanks Trevor, script colorization in BBEdit works perfectly and is actually useful. Im a programmer and I run a small team so we are very familiar with development cycles. Rev has done an amazing job, no two ways about it. The community is extremely kind and nurtures newbies, rather rare to see. Makes me want to immediately get in and fix
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Peter Armstrong wrote: In the end I need to make a simple and quite serious decision: should we spend time and try and develop a project in Rev? And into the future: should we switch our whole team over to Rev? Do the one project first, then you can decide from an informed place about the efficacy of moving the whole team. :) As a suggestion perhaps the Rev List could start up a small spec for a new script editor? I've been asked to make the script editor from my devolution toolkit open source. (Buried in http://www.fourthworld.com/products/devolution/index.html). My editor is forked from the one in the MC IDE, so it would take some non-trivial work to integrate it with Rev's debugger. And for myself, I'd really rather find a way to move the various subwindows (e.g., Variable Watcher) into one window to relieve what feels like clutter to me now, but I'm sure others feel differently and we'd have to sort out what's best (or have multiple versions). It'll take some work to prepare it for an open source process, but if there's sufficient interest from people willing to do some hefty coding I'll do the groundwork to set that up. Provided that interest turns into actual code, this could be a first step toward an atomic IDE, one in which the IDE itself is really just a shell that holds together any number of interchangeable components -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation __ Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
On Apr 9, 2005, at 4:12 PM, Peter Armstrong wrote: Thanks Trevor, the external edit in BBEdit seems to work nicely! At last I can relax and get down to understanding Rev and not worry about my code. An excellent addition (Transcript terms) to BBEdit. You might want to look at using BBEdit Glossaries. You can create mouseUp, mouseDown handlers, if/then, repeat loops, etc. or just a generic glossary entry which creates a function or command from the selected word. This saves a lot of typing. Thanks Alex (?) at Mindlube for the great MLXEditor, seems to be the conduit necessary between Rev and the outside world. Great! Nice and easy, works perfectly as far as I can tell. Maybe Rev should build something like this in to the IDE? It would be nice if Rev added support for 3rd party editors in the future as part of the package but for now Alex has a plugin that does a great job. I use BBEdit for just about everything I do and so I've become proficient with the BBEdit way of doing things. Not having to switch between different editors makes me much more efficient since I'm not having to switch modes if you will. I also like to command tab between my applications in Rev and my scripts in BBEdit. I think it keeps things a little less cluttered. I only open up the Rev editor when I need to debug (hold down the shift key while opening a script to by-pass BBEdit and open the script in Rev). Is there a way to turn OFF storing the custom property formatted script? Surely this bloats out the stack considerably and from what I can gather (and guess by my loss of data) may have other issues... just to make the scripts look pretty (pretty wild if you turn on default script colorization!). Id opt for the plain Jane version if it saved all the other issues. BTW thanks Trevor, script colorization in BBEdit works perfectly and is actually useful. If you turn off script colorization and formatting and don't edit your scripts in Rev then I don't think the script gets stored by Rev since you are opening and editing in BBEdit. I could be wrong about this though. I use Chipp's plugins and I don't think my stacks ever have script bloat when using altClean. Rev is an excellent development tool. It has quirks and that can sometimes be a hassle, but I feel that I have been the most productive I've ever been using Rev. It really puts a lot of power in your hands and for that reason I'm willing to deal with the quirks. -- Trevor DeVore Blue Mango Multimedia [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Peter, I guess the main point of reference is other script editing environments (both scripted and compiled) that I've had to deal with over the past 16 years. Rev has really made me worry about the SAFETY of my code. I'm sitting here testing, learning, then BOOM! Gone. This is usually know as the enlightment process in scripting. From this process are borned newer generations of scripts and sturdier software that can widthstand crashes for eternity! Just save often or use an auto saver (not hard to do with the send savestack to the topstack in 20 seconds kind of script But it's not always advisable to save continually... ;) There's more than one CVS type solution also that you can build or already available. Im writing a virtual Undo mechanism for example... What do you want to redo in your os later is probably what you didn't want to do and undid before. How many IDEs or apps or OSs have that? I'll try working on it a bit more soon I promess... Then we are all saved! ;)) cheers Xav http://monsieurx.com/runrev ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
I feel pretty strongly about the engine myself. Woah! I like that kind of feeling! Like using a Mac, a Z3 Coupe or RunRev right? :) FWIW, the engine is about 14 years old, and the RunRev IDE much more recent. The engine used to be owned by MetaCard Corp., and after the acquisition of the engine by RunRev Ltd. the old MetaCard IDE was re-released as an open source project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MC_IDE/ Many people consider the MC IDE to be quite primitive, but it's for that reason that I use it: it keeps the minimal distance between my work and the engine. I honor that! I also hope to make Richard glad to hear that TAOO will support Metacard no matter how primitive it may look. Although it may thoughen the competition for Devolution (which I'll gladly test for enhanced compatibility) it will not interfeer and keep that path to the finished app the shortest ever as you like to feel! And add a zillion more primitive features to it! revolutions and competition are so healthy ;) cheers Xav ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: ARE YOU SERIOUS REV TEAM? MAJOR SCRIPT EDITOR ISSUES
Peter Armstrong wrote: After enjoying your software my confidence rating dropped to ZERO. Did you mean to send that to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The users in this discussion forum don't make the script editor. At least not Rev's. Seems the IDE is a very leaky tank but the engine is pretty stable. I feel pretty strongly about the engine myself. FWIW, the engine is about 14 years old, and the RunRev IDE much more recent. The engine used to be owned by MetaCard Corp., and after the acquisition of the engine by RunRev Ltd. the old MetaCard IDE was re-released as an open source project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MC_IDE/ Many people consider the MC IDE to be quite primitive, but it's for that reason that I use it: it keeps the minimal distance between my work and the engine. It may not have the features you're looking for, and I can't say I recommend it. My point is merely agreement about your favorable view of the engine, and to note that it's powerful enough to support any number of IDEs, at least two of which are open source. So if one's not to your liking you can contribute to another, or write your own. Of course whether the engine is valuable enough to make working on IDE for it worthwhile is a subjective choice, and I'd understand if your first reaction was something along the lines of WTF?!?. ;) But for a lot of us the engine has delivered an unmatched ROI that more than makes up for any deficiencies in the IDEs available for it. For myself and my clients, the engine is the only thing that matters. We tend to make a lot of our own tools for working with it anyway. I can't say I've been paticularly enamored of any of the IDEs I've worked with for any scripting language, but at least with the Rev engine I have the power I need to roll my own -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation __ Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
