Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Kay C Lan]

On 2/16/07, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Question, how long did it take the first Mac to boot using those 400K
Twiggy drives?
Answer: Less than 30 seconds, unbelievable.

Bummer...Seems like 3 steps forward, 4 steps back.



Also trying to steer the thread away from Mac v Win but more just computers
generally, I put forward an argument recently, on another list, that we are
actually taking big steps backward as far as our computer experience is
concerned. This is based purely on the 'max RAM' to 'maximum document size'
ratio.

Although Moore's Law might convince us that computers are getting faster and
faster, we all actually know that it is RAM that provides the best bang for
the buck.

Back in '87 I bought a computer which had a max RAM of 512K and most
documents I produced were normally 16K to 32K, occasionally ending up a
whopping 64K.

Today my desktop has a max RAM of 8GB, but I regularly work on 16GB+ video
files!

So the ratios are:

87 - 8/1
07 - 1/2

Which of course explains why it takes forever to render video but back in
'87 it never took more than a moment to do anything.

Thankfully though Rev projects and most everything else we do are much
smaller so we generally do have a very healthy Ram/document size ratio:-)
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Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, Chipp Walters wrote:

> Oh, that's great...let's talk about politics and religion now. I'm
> sure Stephen and I are aligned on all that too (him being in CA and me
> in TX ;-)
> 
> IOW, him drinking the Kool Aid Jobs is selling, while I'm slugging
> down W's version.

Wait a minute -- nobody told me Kool Aid was being served.  Where are the
cups?

Oh well, there's always room for Jell-O.

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com


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Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Chipp Walters]

Oh, that's great...let's talk about politics and religion now. I'm
sure Stephen and I are aligned on all that too (him being in CA and me
in TX ;-)

IOW, him drinking the Kool Aid Jobs is selling, while I'm slugging
down W's version. Takes all kinds to make this world go 'round. BTW,
this isn't meant as an invite to start jumping out at our president or
religion of choice, just I thought Joe's response pretty insightful.

Good one, Joe! :-)

On 2/15/07, Joe Lewis Wilkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Isn't it fun? Of course we don't do such things with the important
issues in life, such as religion and politics; do we? Obviously,
Brian makes a good point.

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Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Jim Carwardine]

I still use MacProject II (circa 1988) on SheepShaver on my MacPro... Jim


on 2/15/07 4:58 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

> Yeah,
> 
> What ever happened to all those great apps? Claris Cad, my personal
> favorite, has yet been surpassed for power and ease of use. And
> PowerDraw, was just as good. And Claris Impact, what a great program.
> In fact all of those Claris products were IMO substantially better
> than what exists today. Even MacProject was easy to use and one could
> quickly setup a small project with it. Don't even get me started on a
> WriteNow, MacWrite vs Word debate.
> 
> Yep, what ever happened to quick and easy solutions to everyday needs?
> Nowdays, you have to Pony up multiple hundreds of dollars for a
> bloated, slow, and over-featured product, to just knock out a memo, or
> a quick map to your house, or a small project flowchart.
> 
> Question, how long did it take the first Mac to boot using those 400K
> Twiggy drives?
> Answer: Less than 30 seconds, unbelievable.
> 
> Bummer...Seems like 3 steps forward, 4 steps back.
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Own Your Future Consulting Services Limited,
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Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Joe Lewis Wilkins]

Isn't it fun? Of course we don't do such things with the important  
issues in life, such as religion and politics; do we? Obviously,  
Brian makes a good point.


Joe Wilkins

On Feb 15, 2007, at 4:58 PM, Brian Yennie wrote:


Guys,

I'm guilty of this myself in the past, so I don't mean to call  
anyone out - but even in an off-topic thread I think we'd all be  
happier avoiding the tired Mac vs. PC debate. I'm sure virtually  
every list member has an opinion, but there is zero chance of  
really swaying anyone to the other side.


Remember, this is why we love Revolution, no? Because for a little  
while we can forget about platforms and just write software?


I think it's fair to say that it's just one of those things where  
you have to admit that an awful lot of smart people are going to  
both agree and disagree with you, so the whole issue must run a  
little deeper than we are going to touch here.


Best,

Brian


Macs are better
No PCs are, obviously
No really, Macs are better
If by "better" you mean cost more
But they last longer and Windows sucks
MacOS is just eye candy
Windows has viruses
Macs would too if anyone cared about them
Not true
Is so true
Microsoft is evil
Apple is too, they just get underdog treatment
Microsoft has secret APIs to screw you
Apple has public APIs that screw you
Macs just work
Yeah if you just want to make photo albums for grandma
No way we have Office too
Yeah, MICROSOFT Office
Windows is just a crappy trick on unsuspecting consumers
Kind of like iPods
But iPods win on quality
So does Windows
No it doesn't
Yes is does
No it doesn't
Yes it does
Macs change everything every 12 months
Windows copies them every 5 years
No they don't, Apple just thinks they invent everything
Microsoft only invented Clippy
Apple just copied other Mp3 players
No they perfected it
Macs suck
PCs suck


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Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Brian Yennie]

Guys,

I'm guilty of this myself in the past, so I don't mean to call anyone  
out - but even in an off-topic thread I think we'd all be happier  
avoiding the tired Mac vs. PC debate. I'm sure virtually every list  
member has an opinion, but there is zero chance of really swaying  
anyone to the other side.


Remember, this is why we love Revolution, no? Because for a little  
while we can forget about platforms and just write software?


I think it's fair to say that it's just one of those things where you  
have to admit that an awful lot of smart people are going to both  
agree and disagree with you, so the whole issue must run a little  
deeper than we are going to touch here.


Best,

Brian


Macs are better
No PCs are, obviously
No really, Macs are better
If by "better" you mean cost more
But they last longer and Windows sucks
MacOS is just eye candy
Windows has viruses
Macs would too if anyone cared about them
Not true
Is so true
Microsoft is evil
Apple is too, they just get underdog treatment
Microsoft has secret APIs to screw you
Apple has public APIs that screw you
Macs just work
Yeah if you just want to make photo albums for grandma
No way we have Office too
Yeah, MICROSOFT Office
Windows is just a crappy trick on unsuspecting consumers
Kind of like iPods
But iPods win on quality
So does Windows
No it doesn't
Yes is does
No it doesn't
Yes it does
Macs change everything every 12 months
Windows copies them every 5 years
No they don't, Apple just thinks they invent everything
Microsoft only invented Clippy
Apple just copied other Mp3 players
No they perfected it
Macs suck
PCs suck


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Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Stephen Barncard]

I don't think that's true - the bastards are the major record 
companies who insist on DRM. Didn't you see Job's statement regarding 
this last week? He called for the record companies to end the 
Draconian DRM schemes, as CDs are not protected. Apple is required to 
use DRM by the record companies..


the product is dominant because they did it better and sooner than anyone else.



Joe,

I certainly don't want to rain on your current Mac fanboy leanings,
but Apple's no better than MS with regard to their current dominant
position and unwillingness to play nicely with others in the digital
music business. Just Google "Apple iPod lawsuit" and you should get a
quick picture of a few of Apple's antitrust trangressions across the
world.


--


stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -



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Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Joe Lewis Wilkins]

Chip, no parade to rain on; we all eventually get what we deserve,  
though it may not seem so at the moment. Just based on past  
performance and products, and the way we, as Apple users, get  
treated, M$ gets a thumbs-down in my book, and Apple gets a thumbs- 
up! In twenty years (knock on wood) using Macs, I've never had one go  
bad. They all gracefully retire and are given honorable burials  
somewhere. It's because of great OSs, even when they are buggy, as  
some have been. My cost of doing business is as low as it gets. I  
can't say that about owners of PCs using Windows OS.


Just my HO!

Joe Wilkins

On Feb 15, 2007, at 3:24 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:


Joe,

I certainly don't want to rain on your current Mac fanboy leanings,
but Apple's no better than MS with regard to their current dominant
position and unwillingness to play nicely with others in the digital
music business. Just Google "Apple iPod lawsuit" and you should get a
quick picture of a few of Apple's antitrust trangressions across the
world.
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Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Chipp Walters]

Joe,

I certainly don't want to rain on your current Mac fanboy leanings,
but Apple's no better than MS with regard to their current dominant
position and unwillingness to play nicely with others in the digital
music business. Just Google "Apple iPod lawsuit" and you should get a
quick picture of a few of Apple's antitrust trangressions across the
world.
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Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Dave Cragg]

On 15 Feb 2007, at 20:58, Chipp Walters wrote:

Yep, what ever happened to quick and easy solutions to everyday needs?


I know what you mean. But just occasionally you come across something  
like that. For vector drawing, I enjoy using Intaglio. (http:// 
www.purgatorydesign.com/Intaglio/) This is an unashamed "tradional  
Mac drawing tool", and even looks like MacDraw. But it gives access  
to many of the modern built-in goodies of the OS.  Light and fast.


It costs $89, which may seem a lot considering what you get for free  
these days. But sometimes it's nice to pay for a lack of features. :-)


Cheers
Dave
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Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Joe Lewis Wilkins]

Hi Stephen,

Your experience with CADs in the late 80s was mainly why I had  
originally chosen the Mac as my computer of choice. Also one of the  
reasons that I have such bad feelings toward M$. It was at this point  
in time that Gates was pilfering stuff from Apple to create his soon  
to be "Windows" applications. Apple let him in on all their secrets  
and he probably stole some of their programmers as well. Anyway, had  
Gates taken the knowledge he gained and developed a CAD program to go  
along with Word and Excel, AutoCAD would have never gotten a strangle- 
hold, such as it did, on the entire industry when it moved up to  
Windows from DOS. It has taken years for the likes of ArchiCAD to  
make a dent in the AC market. Eventually, I hope, AC will die a  
painful death when the other programs finally show how terrible, ugly  
and expensive it really is. I haven't used all of them, but I've  
briefly viewed a few. As you said, MacDraft can do everything that  
99% of the users need done. 3D is its one failing, though I think  
they may even have their foot in that door soon.


One of the major advantages that the Mac has had over PCs, from day  
one, is the ability of the users to get their various applications to  
work together. If one won't do it, then try some combination. To a  
certain extent, I've even been able to accomplish this using Virtual  
PC, though it is off my list now that M$ has acquired it. They try to  
get a piece of you - going or coming!


All IMHO,

Joe Wilkins

On Feb 15, 2007, at 12:13 PM, Stephen Barncard wrote:

In 1988 I had the same need in building studios at A&M Records. We  
had yet to decide on what platform to use, and what software.  
Hypercard was just on the horizion. I was an old Apple guy - and  
leaning toward the Mac anyway, but I thought I'd try to level the  
playing field.


First I went into a PC store in Simi Valley and asked to see a  
working demo of the 'best' CAD software. I think they put up  
Autocad. The background was black, the lines were white and some  
other basic colors, and although there was a mouse, the whole  
interface seemed clunky and non-intuitive. I hated it. The PC  
wasn't ready then.


Then I went to an Egghead software store (remember them?) and found  
MacDraft. I asked if I could try it out (! try that today !) and  
they let me play with it for an hour. I could work with it  
immediately. I bought it on the spot, even before I had a Mac.  
Great, classic MacDraw interface. We used it to build everything.  
Studios, track sheets, equipment notations,forms, etc.


They're still around - and the product is at the $290 price point.  
Just bought an new copy last year. It ain't Powerdraw, but it  
covers 99 percent of most needs.




Not a bad option, and I love MacDraft (I once made my living  
drawing facilities diagram with it).


 Richard Gaskin


--


stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -



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Re: OT: MACDRAFT story/endorsement

[Chipp Walters]

Yeah,

What ever happened to all those great apps? Claris Cad, my personal
favorite, has yet been surpassed for power and ease of use. And
PowerDraw, was just as good. And Claris Impact, what a great program.
In fact all of those Claris products were IMO substantially better
than what exists today. Even MacProject was easy to use and one could
quickly setup a small project with it. Don't even get me started on a
WriteNow, MacWrite vs Word debate.

Yep, what ever happened to quick and easy solutions to everyday needs?
Nowdays, you have to Pony up multiple hundreds of dollars for a
bloated, slow, and over-featured product, to just knock out a memo, or
a quick map to your house, or a small project flowchart.

Question, how long did it take the first Mac to boot using those 400K
Twiggy drives?
Answer: Less than 30 seconds, unbelievable.

Bummer...Seems like 3 steps forward, 4 steps back.
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