Re: Revolution => Flash

[Richard Miller]

I've not been following this conversation, so this answer may not fit  
the bill. But I regularly use ffmpeg from within Rev to convert from  
various formats to Flash. It's a very versatile and free program.  
Maybe there's a solution in there for this issue.


Richard Miller
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Chipp Walters]

Andreas, I'm not so sure creating a SWF file from Rev is as difficult
as all that. Perhaps it may be.

In any case, on Wikipedia it says about SWF,

"Although a full specification of SWF is available, it is not an open
format, as implementing software that plays the format is disallowed
by the specification's license."

So, I imagine one could build a Rev app which generated SWF files
which could then be opened using the Flash plugin.

Further investigation led me to this page:
http://www.half-serious.com/swf/format/

I imagine writing a SWF maker is more tedious than anything else. I
know there are several 'quickie SWF generator' tools out there today,
which build a small subset of a targeted SWF format--- like a banner.
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Andres Martinez]

Hello Mark

Unfortunately Director does not export SWF files anymore, therefore  
it is necessary to use Flash (the development environment which is  
actually very similar to Director).


Yes, the description of how the SWF file is conformed (even at bit  
level) is within the File Format Specification provided by Adobe. I  
was not familiar with flash format either.


Yes, it would be possible to do it without Flash but I think the  
effort to conform each "tag" (portion of the flash file) without it  
will be too much.


Regards,
Andres Martinez
www.baKno.com


On Oct 20, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Mark Schonewille wrote:


Thanks, Andreas.

Unfortunately, I think that the requirement to have Director  
available makes this method unfeasible.


I am not familiar with the Flash format. What is the byte level and  
how do I find it? Or is that clearly described in the File Format  
specification?


Do you think there would be a possibility to do this without Director?

Best regards and thanks for taking the time to explain this,

Mark Schonewille

--

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

Quickly extract data from your HyperCard stacks with DIFfersifier.  
http://differsifier.economy-x-talk.com



Op 20-okt-2007, om 16:03 heeft Andres Martinez het volgende  
geschreven:



Hello Mark

The process can be automated but it would take too much effort.  
Let me enumerate the steps I took to simplify it...


1- Register and download the "File Format Specification" form  
Adobe (when I did, I agreed not to share it, sorry)

2- Take a look at the document to understand the "Tags" conformation.
3- Use Flash app to generate a simple animation that has the same  
look (background and characters) as your Rev Stack
4- Experiment, experiment and experiment exporting the .SWF movie  
from Director and looking at the byte level file (I used HexEdit  
for this).
5- Code your Stack to generate the sequence of positions of all  
your animated characters
6- Transform those positions to the right byte level format that  
flash understands, and paste them into the file exported from  
Flash app.


If you want to see the functionality in action, you can download  
our game MacPool and press Ctrl-S (Save) when playing a 9-Ball game.
This is a sample animation exported from the game...   http:// 
www.bakno.com/MacPool/animation.html


Regards,
Andres Martinez
www.baKno.com


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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Jim Ault]

Mark,

> Do you think there would be a possibility to do this without Director?
You will find utilities that convert to SWF (like Video2SWF, SWFFork,
png2swf) that may do what you want.

I think what Andreas is describing could also be done by using the 'binary
write' capability of Rev that can generate the file that is the SWF (in this
case).  Flash and other products can export to the SWF format.  Check
version tracker and do a search.
Once you have the SWF file, you can do a hex dump from a word processor or
BBEdit, etc. to reveal the byte level strings that match the format. Use the
>> 1- Register and download the "File Format Specification" form Adobe
>> (when I did, I agreed not to share it, sorry)
>> 2- Take a look at the document to understand the "Tags" conformation.

There are commands in Rev that can work at the byte level,( and even the bit
level of a file format.. binaryDecode, binaryEncode) so the hexcode is your
oyster :-)

If you are always spooling out the same image library, then you could make
the correct file-write to match these in the final SWF.  Store the file
header and other parts of the SWF file in a stack.

However, Andreas may be going through a better process than I have described
to get results.

Hope this helps, and is not too far off a correct, workable answer.

Jim Ault
Las Vegas


On 10/20/07 8:16 AM, "Mark Schonewille" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Thanks, Andreas.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think that the requirement to have Director
> available makes this method unfeasible.
> 
> I am not familiar with the Flash format. What is the byte level and
> how do I find it? Or is that clearly described in the File Format
> specification?
> 
> Do you think there would be a possibility to do this without Director?
> 
> Best regards and thanks for taking the time to explain this,
> 
> Mark Schonewille

> Op 20-okt-2007, om 16:03 heeft Andres Martinez het volgende geschreven:
> 
>> Hello Mark
>> 
>> The process can be automated but it would take too much effort. Let
>> me enumerate the steps I took to simplify it...
>> 
>> 1- Register and download the "File Format Specification" form Adobe
>> (when I did, I agreed not to share it, sorry)
>> 2- Take a look at the document to understand the "Tags" conformation.
>> 3- Use Flash app to generate a simple animation that has the same
>> look (background and characters) as your Rev Stack
>> 4- Experiment, experiment and experiment exporting the .SWF movie
>> from Director and looking at the byte level file (I used HexEdit
>> for this).
>> 5- Code your Stack to generate the sequence of positions of all
>> your animated characters
>> 6- Transform those positions to the right byte level format that
>> flash understands, and paste them into the file exported from Flash
>> app.
>> 
>> If you want to see the functionality in action, you can download
>> our game MacPool and press Ctrl-S (Save) when playing a 9-Ball game.
>> This is a sample animation exported from the game...   http://
>> www.bakno.com/MacPool/animation.html
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Andres Martinez
>> www.baKno.com


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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Mark Schonewille]

Thanks, Andreas.

Unfortunately, I think that the requirement to have Director  
available makes this method unfeasible.


I am not familiar with the Flash format. What is the byte level and  
how do I find it? Or is that clearly described in the File Format  
specification?


Do you think there would be a possibility to do this without Director?

Best regards and thanks for taking the time to explain this,

Mark Schonewille

--

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

Quickly extract data from your HyperCard stacks with DIFfersifier.  
http://differsifier.economy-x-talk.com



Op 20-okt-2007, om 16:03 heeft Andres Martinez het volgende geschreven:


Hello Mark

The process can be automated but it would take too much effort. Let  
me enumerate the steps I took to simplify it...


1- Register and download the "File Format Specification" form Adobe  
(when I did, I agreed not to share it, sorry)

2- Take a look at the document to understand the "Tags" conformation.
3- Use Flash app to generate a simple animation that has the same  
look (background and characters) as your Rev Stack
4- Experiment, experiment and experiment exporting the .SWF movie  
from Director and looking at the byte level file (I used HexEdit  
for this).
5- Code your Stack to generate the sequence of positions of all  
your animated characters
6- Transform those positions to the right byte level format that  
flash understands, and paste them into the file exported from Flash  
app.


If you want to see the functionality in action, you can download  
our game MacPool and press Ctrl-S (Save) when playing a 9-Ball game.
This is a sample animation exported from the game...   http:// 
www.bakno.com/MacPool/animation.html


Regards,
Andres Martinez
www.baKno.com


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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Andres Martinez]

Hello Mark

The process can be automated but it would take too much effort. Let  
me enumerate the steps I took to simplify it...


1- Register and download the "File Format Specification" form Adobe  
(when I did, I agreed not to share it, sorry)

2- Take a look at the document to understand the "Tags" conformation.
3- Use Flash app to generate a simple animation that has the same  
look (background and characters) as your Rev Stack
4- Experiment, experiment and experiment exporting the .SWF movie  
from Director and looking at the byte level file (I used HexEdit for  
this).
5- Code your Stack to generate the sequence of positions of all your  
animated characters
6- Transform those positions to the right byte level format that  
flash understands, and paste them into the file exported from Flash app.


If you want to see the functionality in action, you can download our  
game MacPool and press Ctrl-S (Save) when playing a 9-Ball game.
This is a sample animation exported from the game...   http:// 
www.bakno.com/MacPool/animation.html


Regards,
Andres Martinez
www.baKno.com


On Oct 18, 2007, at 4:51 AM, Mark Schonewille wrote:


Hi Andres,

Please share. It would be especially interesting if we could  
automate the process.


Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

--

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

Quickly extract data from your HyperCard stacks with DIFfersifier.  
http://differsifier.economy-x-talk.com



Op 18-okt-2007, om 5:46 heeft Andres Martinez het volgende geschreven:


Hello

I made the question about how to generate Flash animations with  
Revolution a few days ago, and that email opened a Pandora's box.  
I don't want to touch that subject again.


This email is to tell you that I was able to do it :  ).  
Unfortunately is not a technology but a technique and there are a  
lot of limitations on the elements that you can export, so if any  
of you is ever interested I can share the things that I've learned  
the hard way.


Regards,
Andres



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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Ken Ray]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:46:58 -0400, Andres Martinez wrote:

> This email is to tell you that I was able to do it :  ). 
> Unfortunately is not a technology but a technique and there are a lot 
> of limitations on the elements that you can export, so if any of you 
> is ever interested I can share the things that I've learned the hard 
> way.

I am very much interested too, so please share (either on- or off-list).

:-)


Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software, Inc.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Mark Schonewille]

Hi Andres,

Please share. It would be especially interesting if we could automate  
the process.


Best regards,

Mark Schonewille

--

Economy-x-Talk Consulting and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

Quickly extract data from your HyperCard stacks with DIFfersifier.  
http://differsifier.economy-x-talk.com



Op 18-okt-2007, om 5:46 heeft Andres Martinez het volgende geschreven:


Hello

I made the question about how to generate Flash animations with  
Revolution a few days ago, and that email opened a Pandora's box. I  
don't want to touch that subject again.


This email is to tell you that I was able to do it :  ).  
Unfortunately is not a technology but a technique and there are a  
lot of limitations on the elements that you can export, so if any  
of you is ever interested I can share the things that I've learned  
the hard way.


Regards,
Andres



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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Andres Martinez]

Hello

I made the question about how to generate Flash animations with  
Revolution a few days ago, and that email opened a Pandora's box. I  
don't want to touch that subject again.


This email is to tell you that I was able to do it :  ).  
Unfortunately is not a technology but a technique and there are a lot  
of limitations on the elements that you can export, so if any of you  
is ever interested I can share the things that I've learned the hard  
way.


Regards,
Andres
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Kay C Lan]

On 10/13/07, Richard Gaskin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> But the question is not necessarily limited to "Can we have a browser
> plugin for Rev?"
>
> Maybe a better question would be to step back and look at the bigger
> picture, asking, "How can Rev contribute to my web development?"


That reminds me. What happened to that Rev Survey, I don't remember seeing
the results.
Were they posted for public viewing somewhere? I generally find such results
interesting to peruse, and this one especially as it would be one of the few
where I'm not one of the handful of Mac voters amongst a tidal wave of
Windows users ;-)
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Luis]

The frequency controls are dire and there is no way to control the 
balance. I thought the QT external would help, and it does cover he 
balance aspect, but not the frequency: He's actually posted up a bug 
report for this.


I was going to call an external application to do this or mess around 
with MIDI files, but they are not clean solutions.


Cheers,

Luis.


Richard Gaskin wrote:

Luis wrote:
Something like my gripe with audio (have to drag that back up 
again...): I saw its audio capabilities but didn't check it out fully, 
so I got stuck halfway and then gave it up. It seems like such a small 
step, yet it's not there.


I have my own issues with audio in Rev.  What were yours?


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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Richard Gaskin]

Luis wrote:
Something like my gripe with audio (have to drag that back up again...): 
I saw its audio capabilities but didn't check it out fully, so I got 
stuck halfway and then gave it up. It seems like such a small step, yet 
it's not there.


I have my own issues with audio in Rev.  What were yours?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
 ___
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Luis]

Oops, forgot to mention this link:

http://blog.reindel.com/2007/10/11/adobe-air-answers-a-question-that-nobody-is-asking/ 



Cheers,

Luis.


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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Luis]

Pleasure. Had to be said.

I think most of this might stem from hopeful developers, especially 
newbies looking at the Rev platform and its deployment capabilities, 
hoping that it will also go that extra step.
Something like my gripe with audio (have to drag that back up again...): 
I saw its audio capabilities but didn't check it out fully, so I got 
stuck halfway and then gave it up. It seems like such a small step, yet 
it's not there.
Some may feel, newbies or old hands at Rev, that that little extra step 
onto the web will be all they will need to get their great new idea out 
to millions. I feel for them.
Note the RevBrowser built in to Rev: That can be misleading, and I can 
see many thinking to buy on the possibility that this is like a browser 
plugin.


Cheers,

Luis.



http://blog.reindel.com/2007/10/11/adobe-air-answers-a-question-that-nobody-is-asking/

Richard Gaskin wrote:

Thank you Derek and Luis for the very kind words.

Derek Bump wrote:

Why should a company choose to program in Revolution when they
can use technologies that already work within a web browser?


Same reason they would choose RealBASIC or XCode or Visual Studio:  they 
need to make desktop apps.


When they want to make web apps they often use Dreamweaver with MySQL 
and PHP.




The current software market suggests that "all-in-one" web solutions are
successful. 


Depends on what "all" means.  Adobe Illustrator makes a pretty crappy 
database, and FileMaker Pro is a weak illustration tool. :)


Sometimes it's not so bad for an app to nail a specific domain, 
certainly before it branches out to address new tasks.  I'd much sooner 
see column alignment in fields, reshapable polygons, and a whole lot 
more before we ask RunRev to devote development resources to something 
like a plugin.



It's easy to suggest that due to the popularity of Google
Earth or Widgets that the web is dead, but it's not.


I apologize if my post suggested such a dismissal.  Of course the web is 
the single most important technology to have appeared in our lifetime, 
and it's driving much of the modern world.


But the question is not necessarily limited to "Can we have a browser 
plugin for Rev?"


Maybe a better question would be to step back and look at the bigger 
picture, asking, "How can Rev contribute to my web development?"


All of the web apps you listed are important, but it's equally important 
to note that none of them are driven by a plugin.




I feel that developers need to realize that the web itself has become a
psudo-platform.  Revolution embodies the "Build Once, Deploy Everywhere"
motto, I think that the Web should be included in the 'Everywhere' part.


The web is definitely an important platform, and has been since the late 
'90s.  Participation in the web is critical for any forward-thinking 
company, but a plugin is not the answer.


Andre's two posts on the subject this morning point to a much more 
valuable approach.  And more importantly, what he proposes can be done 
right now with what we have in our hands today.



Later this quarter I'll be porting an established desktop product to a 
true zero-install web application.   For some background on the app:



We'll be using a combination of HTML, JavaScript, MySQL, Rev CGI, and 
PHP.  We're doing this because IT departments are asking for a 
zero-install solution, and we're delivering it, and most of it with Rev. 
 We'll maintain the content management system we created for the app as 
a Rev application, and will still ship the desktop app.  But we're 
adding exporters to generate the web pages (using parts of my WebMerge 
product, also built with Rev), and migrating our custom search algorithm 
to the server intact using Rev CGI.


It's also important to note that we're keeping one of the most critical 
parts of the application in desktop form only.  This module is a 
decision support system used in emergency clinics, and those clinics who 
rely on it can't risk potential network outage anywhere between their 
terminal and our server due to earthquake etc.  Indeed, it's precisely 
during such catastrophic events that the software will be most 
critically needed, since the emergency rooms will be full.


My hope in outlining this project is to illustrate one approach to web 
deployment, a real-world example that demonstrates the sorts of ideas 
Andre's brining up.


And in addition, it also provides an example of why some projects make 
good sense on the web, and others make better sense on the desktop. This 
project has components that work best in each.



We could summarize deployment options available to us today in three 
categories:


- Desktop app
  The traditional application experiences that still drives
  most computing.

- Web app
  An application that lives entirely in the browser, ideally
  requiring no additional software on the client side.

- Hybrid/Custom Browser/Helper app
  Standalone

Re: Revolution => Flash

[Luis]

What about a Rev cgi running the Rev web UI? It shouldn't need 
translation to JavaScript. And the Rev web UI: From what I've seen the 
cards are XML. I've given some time to try to translate these but didn't 
bother after a while.


Cheers,

Luis.


Andre Garzia wrote:

Hello Friends,
Again we touch the topic of revolution, plugins, flash and the web. This
topic always appear, not because we're stubborn but because it is hot and
current. I'll not repeat all things the other mails said but will try to
propose a simple solution that can be attained now with the resources we
have, it just take a group of developers engaged to make this happen.

Exporting from Rev to Flash or Java is not feasible because it ties Rev to a
third party product that can take directions that completelly break rev
compatibility. Creating such exporter would require a new engine that would
run inside the flash or java plugin or it would require a translator that
would convert revolution logic to actionscript or java. This poses a problem
since the three languages have unique features. It's not that it can't be
done, it's that it is not worth being done.

What people appear to want here is something that would enable them to build
AJAX application with Revolution. Create the next 37signals or something
like that. Nothing is stopping anyone here from building Revolution based
web applications, the problem is that one of the biggest advantages of Rev
is lost when building web application, which is the presentation layer.
Revolution UI elements are not transferable to the web. So even as if we can
code in transcript our web application, we can't build the interface in Rev,
we need another set of skills like css, javascript, html to build the UI.

So in the end the problem is very simple, our only problem is: "how do we
map revolution UI to the Web?", if we could map this, then a pure transcript
solution for converting stacks to the web would be born in a couple thousand
lines.

Every web application is divided in the following components: UI, UI logic,
Server Side Logic. The UI logic makes the connection between the UI layer
and the server side components. This is a variation of the MVC paradigm also
called model2 by Sun. We can already create the server side logic, we need
to create tools to work out the UI and UI Logic component.

The User interface is mostly HTML + CSS + some javascript in some cases
(rollover and animation effects). The UI logic is pure javascript (XHR calls
and the like). I know we all love Transcript but allow me to say that
Javascript is a very nice language supporting some very nice features. It's
actually pleasant to code in javascript once you know. The thing is that Rev
coder should not be forced to learn javascript or at least that Rev could
create basic javascript for the developer so that the end job is just a
fine tuning one (like ruby on rails skeletons).

To programatically convert UI logic and UI components from Rev to the web is
not an easy task. The models are completely different.

Rev -> Stacks, Cards, Groups, Objects. Most based on fields and buttons.
Web -> The DOM, CSS, nested nature of HTML. Most based on text and images.

Mapping from Rev to the Web is a daunting task, for example, how do you map
"go next card" to the web, what should happen? go to a new page? display a
hidden div?

What we need is a new tools palette with WEB ELEMENTS and a converter
plugin. This plugin would know how to convert those elements to the web.
Then Revolution becomes like Apple Interface Builder, you have a set of
palettes to build an interface that can be accessed later by your web
application. Instead of trying to convert a stack app to the web, we begin
from the start building a web application using web safe elements and web
safe code. This can be created inside revolution right now, it just take
time and effort.

This web safe environment would have conventions like "stack script" goes to
server side component, "card script" goes to UI Logic component. The stack
controls disposition is converted to CSS using absolute positioning. We
don't even need the build-upload-debug cycle, we can keep testing all this
at runtime by a combination of RevBrowser and RevHTTP inside the IDE.

This is easier shown than explained. I'll build something to show in the
next two days...
andre
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Richard Gaskin]

Thank you Derek and Luis for the very kind words.

Derek Bump wrote:

Why should a company choose to program in Revolution when they
can use technologies that already work within a web browser?


Same reason they would choose RealBASIC or XCode or Visual Studio:  they 
need to make desktop apps.


When they want to make web apps they often use Dreamweaver with MySQL 
and PHP.




The current software market suggests that "all-in-one" web solutions are
successful. 


Depends on what "all" means.  Adobe Illustrator makes a pretty crappy 
database, and FileMaker Pro is a weak illustration tool. :)


Sometimes it's not so bad for an app to nail a specific domain, 
certainly before it branches out to address new tasks.  I'd much sooner 
see column alignment in fields, reshapable polygons, and a whole lot 
more before we ask RunRev to devote development resources to something 
like a plugin.



It's easy to suggest that due to the popularity of Google
Earth or Widgets that the web is dead, but it's not.


I apologize if my post suggested such a dismissal.  Of course the web is 
the single most important technology to have appeared in our lifetime, 
and it's driving much of the modern world.


But the question is not necessarily limited to "Can we have a browser 
plugin for Rev?"


Maybe a better question would be to step back and look at the bigger 
picture, asking, "How can Rev contribute to my web development?"


All of the web apps you listed are important, but it's equally important 
to note that none of them are driven by a plugin.




I feel that developers need to realize that the web itself has become a
psudo-platform.  Revolution embodies the "Build Once, Deploy Everywhere"
motto, I think that the Web should be included in the 'Everywhere' part.


The web is definitely an important platform, and has been since the late 
'90s.  Participation in the web is critical for any forward-thinking 
company, but a plugin is not the answer.


Andre's two posts on the subject this morning point to a much more 
valuable approach.  And more importantly, what he proposes can be done 
right now with what we have in our hands today.



Later this quarter I'll be porting an established desktop product to a 
true zero-install web application.   For some background on the app:



We'll be using a combination of HTML, JavaScript, MySQL, Rev CGI, and 
PHP.  We're doing this because IT departments are asking for a 
zero-install solution, and we're delivering it, and most of it with Rev. 
 We'll maintain the content management system we created for the app as 
a Rev application, and will still ship the desktop app.  But we're 
adding exporters to generate the web pages (using parts of my WebMerge 
product, also built with Rev), and migrating our custom search algorithm 
to the server intact using Rev CGI.


It's also important to note that we're keeping one of the most critical 
parts of the application in desktop form only.  This module is a 
decision support system used in emergency clinics, and those clinics who 
rely on it can't risk potential network outage anywhere between their 
terminal and our server due to earthquake etc.  Indeed, it's precisely 
during such catastrophic events that the software will be most 
critically needed, since the emergency rooms will be full.


My hope in outlining this project is to illustrate one approach to web 
deployment, a real-world example that demonstrates the sorts of ideas 
Andre's brining up.


And in addition, it also provides an example of why some projects make 
good sense on the web, and others make better sense on the desktop. 
This project has components that work best in each.



We could summarize deployment options available to us today in three 
categories:


- Desktop app
  The traditional application experiences that still drives
  most computing.

- Web app
  An application that lives entirely in the browser, ideally
  requiring no additional software on the client side.

- Hybrid/Custom Browser/Helper app
  Standalones empowered with Internet connectivity, which may
  include HTTP but can also use a wide range of other common
  protocols, such as FTP, IRC, and even custom protocols if
  needed.  They can store persistant data locally, and even
  provide an offline mode if desired (I spend a lot of time
  on trains).

Each type of application has its own strengths and weaknesses, and no 
single model will be best for all cases.  So we just take a good look at 
our application and what we want to do with it, and choose the model 
which best serves our goals.


These aren't mutually exclusive, but instead compliment one another by 
giving us a very broad range of options.


But best of all, all three can be built with Rev in a central role today.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
 ___
 Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com

Re: Revolution => Flash

[Stephen Barncard]

Brilliant paper, Andre!

Since you are fast becoming one of the leading authorities on 
connecting things Rev and the Web, shouldn't it be you, Andre, that 
does what Jerry Daniels and Chipp Walters have done: Made a product 
so important, unique and compelling that Revolution, Inc. would have 
no choice but to buy it and eventually integrate or bundle it into 
their product?


Or if you set up a project fund method, whatever. I'd pay good money 
for such a product.


It appears you've done tons of reading, research and practical 
applications.  We who've met you know what an intense amount of 
energy and knowledge you have so... congratulations.. perhaps this is 
a 'killer app' for you.


Web Safe elements!! Web Safe Code.  Great idea.






What we need is a new tools palette with WEB ELEMENTS and a converter
plugin. This plugin would know how to convert those elements to the web.
Then Revolution becomes like Apple Interface Builder, you have a set of
palettes to build an interface that can be accessed later by your web
application. Instead of trying to convert a stack app to the web, we begin
from the start building a web application using web safe elements and web
safe code. This can be created inside revolution right now, it just take
time and effort.

This web safe environment would have conventions like "stack script" goes to
server side component, "card script" goes to UI Logic component. The stack
controls disposition is converted to CSS using absolute positioning. We
don't even need the build-upload-debug cycle, we can keep testing all this
at runtime by a combination of RevBrowser and RevHTTP inside the IDE.

This is easier shown than explained. I'll build something to show in the
next two days...
andre


--


stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -



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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Andre Garzia]

Hello Friends,
Again we touch the topic of revolution, plugins, flash and the web. This
topic always appear, not because we're stubborn but because it is hot and
current. I'll not repeat all things the other mails said but will try to
propose a simple solution that can be attained now with the resources we
have, it just take a group of developers engaged to make this happen.

Exporting from Rev to Flash or Java is not feasible because it ties Rev to a
third party product that can take directions that completelly break rev
compatibility. Creating such exporter would require a new engine that would
run inside the flash or java plugin or it would require a translator that
would convert revolution logic to actionscript or java. This poses a problem
since the three languages have unique features. It's not that it can't be
done, it's that it is not worth being done.

What people appear to want here is something that would enable them to build
AJAX application with Revolution. Create the next 37signals or something
like that. Nothing is stopping anyone here from building Revolution based
web applications, the problem is that one of the biggest advantages of Rev
is lost when building web application, which is the presentation layer.
Revolution UI elements are not transferable to the web. So even as if we can
code in transcript our web application, we can't build the interface in Rev,
we need another set of skills like css, javascript, html to build the UI.

So in the end the problem is very simple, our only problem is: "how do we
map revolution UI to the Web?", if we could map this, then a pure transcript
solution for converting stacks to the web would be born in a couple thousand
lines.

Every web application is divided in the following components: UI, UI logic,
Server Side Logic. The UI logic makes the connection between the UI layer
and the server side components. This is a variation of the MVC paradigm also
called model2 by Sun. We can already create the server side logic, we need
to create tools to work out the UI and UI Logic component.

The User interface is mostly HTML + CSS + some javascript in some cases
(rollover and animation effects). The UI logic is pure javascript (XHR calls
and the like). I know we all love Transcript but allow me to say that
Javascript is a very nice language supporting some very nice features. It's
actually pleasant to code in javascript once you know. The thing is that Rev
coder should not be forced to learn javascript or at least that Rev could
create basic javascript for the developer so that the end job is just a
fine tuning one (like ruby on rails skeletons).

To programatically convert UI logic and UI components from Rev to the web is
not an easy task. The models are completely different.

Rev -> Stacks, Cards, Groups, Objects. Most based on fields and buttons.
Web -> The DOM, CSS, nested nature of HTML. Most based on text and images.

Mapping from Rev to the Web is a daunting task, for example, how do you map
"go next card" to the web, what should happen? go to a new page? display a
hidden div?

What we need is a new tools palette with WEB ELEMENTS and a converter
plugin. This plugin would know how to convert those elements to the web.
Then Revolution becomes like Apple Interface Builder, you have a set of
palettes to build an interface that can be accessed later by your web
application. Instead of trying to convert a stack app to the web, we begin
from the start building a web application using web safe elements and web
safe code. This can be created inside revolution right now, it just take
time and effort.

This web safe environment would have conventions like "stack script" goes to
server side component, "card script" goes to UI Logic component. The stack
controls disposition is converted to CSS using absolute positioning. We
don't even need the build-upload-debug cycle, we can keep testing all this
at runtime by a combination of RevBrowser and RevHTTP inside the IDE.

This is easier shown than explained. I'll build something to show in the
next two days...
andre
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Derek Bump]

Richard,

I agree with Luis, very well written!  Regarding a compelling must-have
business case to give you, well, there are a LOT of talented programmers
in this forum and I'd hate to miss out on a good idea (if you catch my
drift).

So, a simple question:  Why should Runtime Revolution build a plugin to
allow Revolution projects to be viewable on the web?

Answer:  Why should a company choose to program in Revolution when they
can use technologies that already work within a web browser?


The current software market suggests that "all-in-one" web solutions are
successful.  It's easy to suggest that due to the popularity of Google
Earth or Widgets that the web is dead, but it's not.  People still use
the web, and companies are still banking on 'web' products...

   Google Docs, http://docs.google.com
   Zoho, http://writer.zoho.com
   ThinkFree, http://www.thinkfree.com

   - And the not so obvious 'web products' -

   MySpace, http://www.myspace.com
   Facebook, http://www.facebook.com
   Google, http://www.google.com

I feel that developers need to realize that the web itself has become a
psudo-platform.  Revolution embodies the "Build Once, Deploy Everywhere"
motto, I think that the Web should be included in the 'Everywhere' part.


Derek Bump
Dreamscape Software
http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com


Richard Gaskin wrote:
> Ken's post raised the question of the cost/benefit ratio of developing a
> Rev plugin, and while it touched on many of the highlights on the cost
> side it didn't address much of the benefit side.
> 
> I can't really call that an omission from his post, as I don't believe
> there are many, if any at all.
> 
> The few ostensible benefits are seductive but generally haven't held up
> well to analysis in previous discussions.  Let's take a look at them:
> 
> The main ostensible benefit of a plugin is that it lightens the load for
> deploying Rev-based media.  Just hand out a URL, the story goes, and
> that's all the user needs to run your stuff.
> 
> That's true only to the degree that someone takes up the suggestion of
> building a JavaScript library for common Rev tasks, and writes an
> exporter to translate Rev stuff for true browser-only deployment.  Thus
> far no one has pursued this, and it remains the only option that truly
> addresses the central issue of zero-installation.
> 
> Even if a browser plugin were available, you still wouldn't be able to
> run Rev media until you first convince IT staffers among your target
> audience that they should locate, download, and install this plugin on
> all systems expected to run Rev.
> 
> If you could win that argument with IT over plugins in the future, you
> can win it today to deploy a standalone that acts as a browser's helper
> app, downloading and running any Rev stacks it needs, right now.
> 
> But if you can't win that argument, whether it's a plugin or a helper
> app standalone won't matter: it won't get installed, and your user still
> won't be able to run your Rev stacks.
> 
> Rev-based helper app standalones provide all of the benefits of a
> plugin, and much more.  They aren't limited by the browser UI, can
> retain state information locally, can provide an offline mode if
> desired, can have multiple windows, etc. etc.
> 
> And best of all, there's nothing stopping any of us from deploying such
> systems with the technology we have in hand right now.  Many of us do.
> 
> Details on this issue have been covered in depth before -- these three
> posts may serve as a reasonable summary:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what about sites where IT requires true zero-install?  Well, even if
> RunRev saddled themselves with the expense of such a venture, taking
> time away from more critical priorities to put this in our hands, it
> still wouldn't be zero-install, and you'd be having the same
> installation discussion with your customers that you can have today,
> leaving RunRev free to pursue things with a higher cost/benefit ratio.
> 
> I have one client whose product market is expanding into segments which
> require a true zero-install solution.  For that product we're writing an
> exporter which splits the program's logic into two halves, so that on
> the client we'll deliver the UI and content in HTML/JavaScript, and use
> a combination of Rev CGI and MySQL providing the other half of the
> functionality on the server side.
> 
> Translating the UI to JavaScript, Java, or Flash is the only option for
> delivering media in a browser which doesn't require an additional
> installation.
> 
> If there's a compelling must-have business case to be made for a plugin
> I'd like to hear it.  Over the many years this has been discussed I
> haven't seen it yet.  Sure, it'd be nice to have, but there are a lot of
> nice-

Re: Revolution => Flash

[Mikey]

I agree with Ken, but for a different reason, unless I slept partway
through his post.

Ajax, AIR, Flash.  All are ways to make rich internet apps, and all
are being accepted as reasonable ways and standards.  So, if RR was
going to develop a way to move apps to the web, I would argue that it
is far easier to gain acceptance if one uses an established method
rather than inventing a new one, unless the new one is so
revolutionary that it is simply accepted as the reasonable choice.  I
would argue that at this time there is no such method on the horizon
for RR.
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Andres Martinez]

Hello again

I have made some research and progress towards the export to flash  
"SWF" files.


However I got stuck into the creation of the file where it is needed  
to have bit level access and editing capabilities.


The simple question is   Within Revolution how can I edit a  
string of characters "bitwise"? For example, if I need to insert or  
delete 1 bit at any position.


Regards,
Andres Martinez
www.baKno.com

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[OT] Re: Revolution => Flash

[Luis]

Hiya,

Content aside, that's one of the best written texts I've seen in a  
long while.
If this comes naturally to you, that's a gift. If you've worked at  
it, the craftsmanship shows.


This is written regardless of personal opinion (that's should not be  
taken to imply anything).


Cheers,

Luis.



On 12 Oct 2007, at 01:51, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Ken's post raised the question of the cost/benefit ratio of  
developing a Rev plugin, and while it touched on many of the  
highlights on the cost side it didn't address much of the benefit  
side.


I can't really call that an omission from his post, as I don't  
believe there are many, if any at all.


The few ostensible benefits are seductive but generally haven't  
held up well to analysis in previous discussions.  Let's take a  
look at them:


The main ostensible benefit of a plugin is that it lightens the  
load for deploying Rev-based media.  Just hand out a URL, the story  
goes, and that's all the user needs to run your stuff.


That's true only to the degree that someone takes up the suggestion  
of building a JavaScript library for common Rev tasks, and writes  
an exporter to translate Rev stuff for true browser-only  
deployment.  Thus far no one has pursued this, and it remains the  
only option that truly addresses the central issue of zero- 
installation.


Even if a browser plugin were available, you still wouldn't be able  
to run Rev media until you first convince IT staffers among your  
target audience that they should locate, download, and install this  
plugin on all systems expected to run Rev.


If you could win that argument with IT over plugins in the future,  
you can win it today to deploy a standalone that acts as a  
browser's helper app, downloading and running any Rev stacks it  
needs, right now.


But if you can't win that argument, whether it's a plugin or a  
helper app standalone won't matter: it won't get installed, and  
your user still won't be able to run your Rev stacks.


Rev-based helper app standalones provide all of the benefits of a  
plugin, and much more.  They aren't limited by the browser UI, can  
retain state information locally, can provide an offline mode if  
desired, can have multiple windows, etc. etc.


And best of all, there's nothing stopping any of us from deploying  
such systems with the technology we have in hand right now.  Many  
of us do.


Details on this issue have been covered in depth before -- these  
three posts may serve as a reasonable summary:








So what about sites where IT requires true zero-install?  Well,  
even if RunRev saddled themselves with the expense of such a  
venture, taking time away from more critical priorities to put this  
in our hands, it still wouldn't be zero-install, and you'd be  
having the same installation discussion with your customers that  
you can have today, leaving RunRev free to pursue things with a  
higher cost/benefit ratio.


I have one client whose product market is expanding into segments  
which require a true zero-install solution.  For that product we're  
writing an exporter which splits the program's logic into two  
halves, so that on the client we'll deliver the UI and content in  
HTML/JavaScript, and use a combination of Rev CGI and MySQL  
providing the other half of the functionality on the server side.


Translating the UI to JavaScript, Java, or Flash is the only option  
for delivering media in a browser which doesn't require an  
additional installation.


If there's a compelling must-have business case to be made for a  
plugin I'd like to hear it.  Over the many years this has been  
discussed I haven't seen it yet.  Sure, it'd be nice to have, but  
there are a lot of nice-to-haves and a long list of must-haves  
too.  I'd prefer to see RunRev address this nice-to-have after all  
the must-haves are shipping.



And while we wait another few years for RunRev to clear their  
plates to get into a position where a plugin could be responsibly  
considered, take a look at all the energy Adobe's putting into AIR:



Web 2.0 was about moving ever more functionality into the browser.   
But as AIR, Google Earth, and other significant initiatives  
suggest, Web 3.0 is taking place beyond the browser.


You can join that revolution right now, 'cause Rev's been doing  
that extremely well for years.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
 ___
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http

Re: Revolution => Flash

[Richard Gaskin]

Ken's post raised the question of the cost/benefit ratio of developing a 
Rev plugin, and while it touched on many of the highlights on the cost 
side it didn't address much of the benefit side.


I can't really call that an omission from his post, as I don't believe 
there are many, if any at all.


The few ostensible benefits are seductive but generally haven't held up 
well to analysis in previous discussions.  Let's take a look at them:


The main ostensible benefit of a plugin is that it lightens the load for 
deploying Rev-based media.  Just hand out a URL, the story goes, and 
that's all the user needs to run your stuff.


That's true only to the degree that someone takes up the suggestion of 
building a JavaScript library for common Rev tasks, and writes an 
exporter to translate Rev stuff for true browser-only deployment.  Thus 
far no one has pursued this, and it remains the only option that truly 
addresses the central issue of zero-installation.


Even if a browser plugin were available, you still wouldn't be able to 
run Rev media until you first convince IT staffers among your target 
audience that they should locate, download, and install this plugin on 
all systems expected to run Rev.


If you could win that argument with IT over plugins in the future, you 
can win it today to deploy a standalone that acts as a browser's helper 
app, downloading and running any Rev stacks it needs, right now.


But if you can't win that argument, whether it's a plugin or a helper 
app standalone won't matter: it won't get installed, and your user still 
won't be able to run your Rev stacks.


Rev-based helper app standalones provide all of the benefits of a 
plugin, and much more.  They aren't limited by the browser UI, can 
retain state information locally, can provide an offline mode if 
desired, can have multiple windows, etc. etc.


And best of all, there's nothing stopping any of us from deploying such 
systems with the technology we have in hand right now.  Many of us do.


Details on this issue have been covered in depth before -- these three 
posts may serve as a reasonable summary:







So what about sites where IT requires true zero-install?  Well, even if 
RunRev saddled themselves with the expense of such a venture, taking 
time away from more critical priorities to put this in our hands, it 
still wouldn't be zero-install, and you'd be having the same 
installation discussion with your customers that you can have today, 
leaving RunRev free to pursue things with a higher cost/benefit ratio.


I have one client whose product market is expanding into segments which 
require a true zero-install solution.  For that product we're writing an 
exporter which splits the program's logic into two halves, so that on 
the client we'll deliver the UI and content in HTML/JavaScript, and use 
a combination of Rev CGI and MySQL providing the other half of the 
functionality on the server side.


Translating the UI to JavaScript, Java, or Flash is the only option for 
delivering media in a browser which doesn't require an additional 
installation.


If there's a compelling must-have business case to be made for a plugin 
I'd like to hear it.  Over the many years this has been discussed I 
haven't seen it yet.  Sure, it'd be nice to have, but there are a lot of 
nice-to-haves and a long list of must-haves too.  I'd prefer to see 
RunRev address this nice-to-have after all the must-haves are shipping.



And while we wait another few years for RunRev to clear their plates to 
get into a position where a plugin could be responsibly considered, take 
a look at all the energy Adobe's putting into AIR:



Web 2.0 was about moving ever more functionality into the browser.  But 
as AIR, Google Earth, and other significant initiatives suggest, Web 3.0 
is taking place beyond the browser.


You can join that revolution right now, 'cause Rev's been doing that 
extremely well for years.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
 ___
 Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Derek Bump]

Ken,

I understand exactly what you are saying, and I do agree that advancing
any product into another "arena" can be expensive, time consuming, and
may ultimately fail.  But at the same time I feel that today's market is
very web-centric, and not having a plugin or control is a missed
opportunity for Revolution to become a serious competitor with both
Flash and Java, as well as many other new web technologies.

Revolution grew out of MetaCard and I know it's support and user-base is
growing every day.  Flash grew out of FutureSplash Animator in the 80's,
and look where it is now.  ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash )

I can see many uses for Revolution within a browser platform and I hope
to get as much support for it as possible.  Maybe one day the folk's in
Scotland will decide to start it's development, and then myself and
others can begin creating some of the projects we've been dreaming of.


Derek Bump
Dreamscape Software
http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com


Ken Ray wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:33:41 -0500, Derek Bump wrote:
> 
>> I feel that instead of trying to convert Revolution into other things
>> like Flash, PDF, SVG and other technologies, that it would instead be a
>> better idea to try to expand the usability of Revolution on the Web.
>>
>> AKA: A Browser Plugin or Extension for displaying Revolution content
>> within Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari or any other browser!
> 
> Its funny, Derek, I feel exactly the opposite... apart from the time 
> and effort needed to even create a Rev browser plugin, you then have 
> all sorts of other issues to deal with both from the technical and 
> deployment ends. Many companies will not just allow new plugins to be 
> used on their IT-managed corporate machines. Personally, I'd feel that 
> the time would be better spent in outputting Rev code to an already 
> ubiquitous (or soon to be) existing plugin like Flash, or the upcoming 
> Silverlight.
> 
> I say this from a unique vantage point - I was working for Allegiant 
> Technologies when they owned SuperCard and this was during the 
> development and deployment of their "Roadster" web plugin. Getting an 
> initial prototype of an interpreter in the plugin was pretty quick to 
> develop, but when the time came to really make it happen, there were 
> lots of platform/browser issues to deal with that dragged it out. It 
> was never really completed... it was released in an unfinished state 
> and didn't last too long (since Allegiant didn't last too long), but it 
> was not for the faint of heart. 
> 
> Now of course the Rev code is different than the SuperCard code, and 
> has less dependencies (I would think), so it might be more doable, but 
> I still see deployment/acceptance/installation issues that make me 
> think it would better to let someone else handle that mess.
> 
> Just my 2 cents,
> 
> Ken Ray
> Sons of Thunder Software, Inc.
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Ken Ray]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:33:41 -0500, Derek Bump wrote:

> I feel that instead of trying to convert Revolution into other things
> like Flash, PDF, SVG and other technologies, that it would instead be a
> better idea to try to expand the usability of Revolution on the Web.
> 
> AKA: A Browser Plugin or Extension for displaying Revolution content
> within Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari or any other browser!

Its funny, Derek, I feel exactly the opposite... apart from the time 
and effort needed to even create a Rev browser plugin, you then have 
all sorts of other issues to deal with both from the technical and 
deployment ends. Many companies will not just allow new plugins to be 
used on their IT-managed corporate machines. Personally, I'd feel that 
the time would be better spent in outputting Rev code to an already 
ubiquitous (or soon to be) existing plugin like Flash, or the upcoming 
Silverlight.

I say this from a unique vantage point - I was working for Allegiant 
Technologies when they owned SuperCard and this was during the 
development and deployment of their "Roadster" web plugin. Getting an 
initial prototype of an interpreter in the plugin was pretty quick to 
develop, but when the time came to really make it happen, there were 
lots of platform/browser issues to deal with that dragged it out. It 
was never really completed... it was released in an unfinished state 
and didn't last too long (since Allegiant didn't last too long), but it 
was not for the faint of heart. 

Now of course the Rev code is different than the SuperCard code, and 
has less dependencies (I would think), so it might be more doable, but 
I still see deployment/acceptance/installation issues that make me 
think it would better to let someone else handle that mess.

Just my 2 cents,

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software, Inc.
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
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Re: Revolution => Flash

[Derek Bump]

I feel that instead of trying to convert Revolution into other things
like Flash, PDF, SVG and other technologies, that it would instead be a
better idea to try to expand the usability of Revolution on the Web.

AKA: A Browser Plugin or Extension for displaying Revolution content
within Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari or any other browser!

If you want it, vote for it...

Enhancement Report #3940
http://quality.runrev.com/qacenter/show_bug.cgi?id=3940


Derek Bump
Dreamscape Software
http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com


Andres Martinez wrote:
> Hello
> 
> When you create a Flash animation in Director, let's say a bouncy ball,
> the generated file is very small because it is not created frame by
> frame but instead (the same way as Revolution does) is has layers of
> graphics and small code about position (and other info) for each graphic
> at any point in the timeline. I hope you can understand me.
> 
> I want to know if any of you have worked with this to export small flash
> animations from Revolution. Any advice is welcome.
> 
> Regards,
> Andres Martinez
> www.baKno.com
> 
> 
> On Oct 9, 2007, at 9:25 AM, Ian Wood wrote:
> 
>>
>> On 9 Oct 2007, at 14:19, Andres Martinez wrote:
>>
>>> Erik wrote this yesterday and I want to know if it is possible to
>>> export a Rev animation as a video (any format) via scripts, not with
>>> external capturing software.
>>
>> As always, 'Trevor's wonderful EnhancedQT External'. :-)
>>
>> 
>>
>> You would have to export each frame as an image file, then load them
>> up using the external and turn them into a movie file.
>>
>> Ian
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