Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Richard Gaskin]

Jim Hurley wrote:

> SuperCard remains valuable to me for its ability to export vector
> graphics, something not yet available in MC or RR due to
> cross-platform issues. But my fingers  are crossed.

Have you seen the SVG Exporter for Rev?  You'll find it in the Stacks
listing in RevNet.

It's jus a proof-of-concept at the moment, but if you have time on your
hands you could flesh it out into something useful (to the degree that you
can find programs that read SVG, that is ).

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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Jim Hurley]

As many have said, there is one positive aspects to the variety of 
xCard application and that is the variety of features available.

SuperCard remains valuable to me for its ability to export vector 
graphics, something not yet available in MC or RR due to 
cross-platform issues. But my fingers  are crossed.

Jim
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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[curry]

I think it's too bad there's so little "love" shown between different 
xCard environment developers, and to a lesser extent (more goodwill) 
their users. :-)

I've heard about things like Linux desktop conferences where vendors 
of different products work together to inform the public about what's 
available now, to the common good and the advancement of their shared 
interests and market although they have competing products. 
Descendants of HyperCard are certainly receiving less attention than 
they deserve in the world based on their practical merits, so who 
knows, it might be productive sometime if users or even the companies 
which produce the xCard products would do something like this. Why 
not an xCard product and scripting conference for companies, 
developers, and the public? (Of course, the first thing is to find 
good words for calling it, if something is better than "xCard" which 
I don't think is great for consumers.)

Also, from my perspective, I just invest time and money, not my ego 
or sense of self-esteem and security, into the product I use. In 
private conversation I've discussed with others about the need for 
people to convince themselves that they are using the right product 
and have made the right decision in the "road" they've taken with a 
product. I think this probably affects some people in all user 
communities and I've seen confirmation of this behavior in many 
places. I suppose it's a type of loyalty to others which relates back 
to yourself because of investment.

That tendency obviously is there in the mind for a reason and has a 
valid place, as long as it doesn't get out of hand, but as a user 
that has chosen one path I don't mind hearing a bit about the other 
"road" and that could be a good thing if it is productive and not too 
negative, and some of that will depend on responses as well as what 
is being responded to. Just as some collaboration between competitors 
with xTalk products might help to advance xTalk itself and raise 
awareness for customers and developers, some communication between 
users (or even the companies, theoretically although they don't seem 
too friendly looking at their messages toward each other ;-) might 
help users and the products.

SuperCard and Revolution both have strengths and weaknesses that we 
cannot deny, and there's really no reason to feel that one has to be 
vindicated in order to breath easy and continue to use it. Which one 
is better depends on which strengths and weaknesses you are 
enthusiastic about and willing to live with, and what are your needs 
and priorities in using the product. (If you have a lot of money and 
a wide variety of needs, you can have both!) I think everyone will 
benefit by both products improving. Some discussions maybe do not 
belong on the lists and should be elsewhere, and that's up the 
companies and list owners, but it seems some, such as "what's the 
best way for a product to accomplish this task" or "should we have 
this feature, or something else, comparing to the feature of the 
other product" would be very relevant.

As far as RealBasic goes (since it was also mentioned) it has many 
neat and unique features, but if the choice is available, I like to 
work with something based on what I admire and believe is the 
preferable or superior way to do something (the paradigm coming from 
HyperCard) rather than what I see as the standardized but not 
necessarily more deserving way that people have been forced to accept 
(the method coming from Microsoft). You can see the pattern of what 
becomes standardized vs. what is best everywhere--JavaScript was 
mentioned on the Rev list, and in the past there were discussions 
about alternatives to the C language before everyone gave in and shut 
up about it. I see RB as a lot more than the standard because of its 
innovations and style, and think it's a good useful product, but I 
still have to very much prefer using xTalk products and getting the 
benefits of the xTalk advantages as long as they can deliver the 
features I need.

Best wishes to all those using Revolution and SuperCard and I hope 
that xCard in general has increasing success that it deserves 
according to its features!

Curry
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Re: [SC] Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[switchedon]

> As for the SC mailing list, posts that mention competing products
> are specifically prohibited by the list owner (who has censored my
> posts to that list on more than one occasion)

That's certainly not my idea of a public discussion group. Sounds more like
a strictly moderated propaganda vehicle to me. And if that comment
represents the first instance of SuperCard bashing on this list I want the
credit.

Cheers... Bill Lynn
Simtech Publications
www.hsj.com

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Re: [SC] Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Sannyasin Sivakatirswami]

Ditto that from a veteran SC (a decade or so? still got projects 
running, waiting to be ported to rev) user now using Rev.

Oh, and Apple's own "mail.app' unexpectedly quits a lot more under 
Jaguar than Rev ever does even in its latest beta.

We're doin' just fine!

On Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 11:52  AM, David Vaughan wrote:

I appear to be only one of very many Jaguar users who have found 
Revolution quite acceptable ever since Jaguar emerged. That it is open 
to improvement is, in my humble but rather extensive experience, not 
unique to this software, which on balance serves me more effectively 
and more pleasantly than do its principal competitors.
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Re: [SC] Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[David Vaughan]

On Sunday, Mar 16, 2003, at 23:27 Australia/Sydney, Chilton Webb 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

And no, expecting Mac users using Jaguar to set Revolution's UI to use 
OS9's appearance, is NOT acceptable.
Chilton, I presume you were not attempting to be a little deceptive so 
I take it the above simply represents an error or unfamiliarity with 
Rev. You can correct your comment by changing "users" to "developers", 
because users are unaffected, using Appearance Manager under Rev with 
no problems at all. For completeness you should also add a reference to 
yourself after "unacceptable" as I appear to be only one of very many 
Jaguar users who have found Revolution quite acceptable ever since 
Jaguar emerged. That it is open to improvement is, in my humble but 
rather extensive experience, not unique to this software, which on 
balance serves me more effectively and more pleasantly than do its 
principal competitors.

regards
David
-Chilton
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Re: [SC] Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Chilton,

I was a SuperCard beta tester for version 1.0. I knew all those guys,
Charlie Jackson, Chris Watson, Bill Applegate, Stuart Henigson and really
enjoyed using the program. Unfortunately, in 96, because of client demands,
we started using PC's (the MAC CD-ROM market was too small) and had to
switch to a different development environment.

I've always thought SC a fine product -- and have had many off-list
discussions about it with folks like Ken Ray and Richard Gaskin. I've been
using RR for well over a year now, and frankly, I can't remember one SC
bashing comment on this list during that time. Course, I'm not monitoring
the SC list (I assume there is one), and if I were, I sure wouldn't be
trying to bash them. I think all of these tools deserve as much support as
possible! It's not a big market -- and no one I know of has gotten rich
selling development tools ;-)

-Chipp

Chilton writes:
"Once Rev 2.0 actually ships, then this will be a valid discussion. Hey, 
if it sounds like I'm being unfair, keep in mind that until SC4 
actually shipped, the Rev users were saying the same things about the 
SuperCard betas. I'll be glad to compare shipping products to shipping 
products, on the current MacOS. It's just that doing so puts Rev in a 
very unfair place.

-Chilton"


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Re: [SC] Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Scott Raney]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2003 Chilton Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

(snip)

> Once Rev 2.0 actually ships, then this will be a valid discussion.

At least on the RR mailing list.  As for the SC mailing list, posts
that mention competing products are specifically prohibited by the
list owner (who has censored my posts to that list on more than one
occasion), even when their purpose is to correct misinformation posted
by other people.
  Regards,
Scott

> -Chilton


Scott Raney  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.metacard.com
MetaCard: You know, there's an easier way to do that...



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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Wolfgang M. Bereuter]

On Friday, Mar 14, 2003, at 21:09 Europe/Vienna, Richard Gaskin wrote:

My Rev-based product also got a 4.5-mouse review in that magazine just 
a
month earlier, so I read it with great enthusiasm.
If its existing product, what I know becaus its really great... than it 
must have been build with 1.1.1
So I have some questions..:

Is it really revbased, revmade, and revbuild...?
Or revbased, MCmade, and(!)MC-build...?
Or maybee revbased, revmade, and(!)MC-build...?
...
regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Learn easy with trainingsmaps©

INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria
...
http://www.internettrainer.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
Tel: ++43/1/ 961 0418, Fax: ++43/1/ 479 2539
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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Wolfgang M. Bereuter]

On Friday, Mar 14, 2003, at 21:09 Europe/Vienna, Richard Gaskin wrote:

My Rev-based product also got a 4.5-mouse review in that magazine just 
a
month earlier, so I read it with great enthusiasm.
If its existing product, what I know becaus its really great... than it 
must have been build with 1.1.1
So I have some questions..:

Is it really revbased, revmade, and revbuild...?
Or revbased, MCmade, and(!)MC-build...?
Or maybee revbased, revmade, and(!)MC-build...?
...
regards
Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Learn easy with trainingsmaps©

INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter
Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria
...
http://www.internettrainer.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
Tel: ++43/1/ 961 0418, Fax: ++43/1/ 479 2539
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Re: [SC] Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Geoff Canyon]

You know, I got the same hostile reaction from some of the REALbasic 
crowd at the time. Others simply contributed to the wiki.

Responses below:

On Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 07:37 PM, Chilton Webb wrote:

Hi Geoff,

On Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 08:50  PM, Geoff Canyon wrote:

On the Revolution mailing list, on Friday, March 14, 2003, at 06:26 
AM,
Tim Hart wrote:

So now that Supercard 4 is out.  What are your opinions?  I was
reading in MacWorld and they kind of made a stab at Rev for waiting 
so
long to release 2.  I have to say it is funny.  I mean what is the
hold up.  I don't mean to be a jerk but I don't see how they could
possibly miss their original announcement by 4 months of just bug
fixing.  What is going on?
As always happens when a topic like this comes up, there was some
lively debate, a few questions of character, and not much positive
result. When this happened on the REALbasic list last year, I posted a
couple pages on a wiki server with room for opinion. The result was
actually halfway decent, so I've done the same for
SuperCard/Revolution. The home page for discussion is at:
http://wiki.macitworks.com/revdocs/revolutionAndSuperCard
The problem here is that REALBasic's users became apathetic to this 
site a few days after it went live, and Revolution's users did not. 
The arguments became suddenly very one-sided, and still are, to a 
large degree. Furthermore (due to the nature of Wiki, I assume), 
entire sections have been erased to cover up how some people feel 
about the discussion.
It's funny that you say this. The entire history of both pages, 
complete with dates and diff files, is available right there. Unless 
you are accusing me of manipulating the server directly, the entire 
content of _every_ post to those pages is available right now to anyone 
who cares to look. All I ever did was remove the "REALbasic SUX!" 
entries.

If you find a place where I or anyone removed "entire sections," then 
put it back ;-)

I can't help the importance people placed on the debate. There was a 
firestorm on the RB list, and it wasn't the first I had seen, so I put 
up the pages, so that maybe the next time people could just send a 
questioner to the wiki and be done with it.

I have never posted to either list to remind people to update the wiki. 
Until now, that is. I considered cross posting this to the REALbasic 
NUG as well, but it seemed too off-topic for them. The next time 
someone brings up Rev on the RB list if I catch it, I'll point out the 
wiki pages. If you feel the RB crowd needs to be reminded now, then 
post to the RB NUG to do so.

As of right now, there is no shipping version of Revolution that is 
fully compatible with Jaguar. That's the OS that I use on all of my 
systems, and the OS used by all of my clients, and their users. The 
betas do exist, but they are still betas. And no, expecting Mac users 
using Jaguar to set Revolution's UI to use OS9's appearance, is NOT 
acceptable.
Fine, post that to the wiki. That's what it's for. Posting to the 
mailing lists means that someone who shows up tomorrow never sees it.

Once Rev 2.0 actually ships, then this will be a valid discussion. 
Hey, if it sounds like I'm being unfair, keep in mind that until SC4 
actually shipped, the Rev users were saying the same things about the 
SuperCard betas. I'll be glad to compare shipping products to shipping 
products, on the current MacOS. It's just that doing so puts Rev in a 
very unfair place.
How is posting this to the mailing list any better? Either way, you're 
saying that when comparing shipping versions, Rev is inferior. You're 
entitled to your opinion, and there's no reason not to put it on the 
wiki where people have the ability to respond directly instead of 
through a thread.

regards,

Geoff Canyon
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Re: [SC] Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Alex Rice]

Chilton, I enjoy reading the insights of you old-school xtalk 
developers.

On Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 08:37  PM, Chilton Webb wrote:

The problem here is that REALBasic's users became apathetic to this 
site a few days after it went live, and Revolution's users did not. 
The arguments became suddenly very one-sided, and still are, to a 
large degree. Furthermore (due to the nature of Wiki, I assume), 
entire sections have been erased to cover up how some people feel 
about the discussion.
The only sections that were erased, that I am aware of (and I didn't do 
the erasing) was a realbasic user that posted something to the effect 
of "stup1d l00zers... revolution developers are just too dumb to use 
any other tool."

As of right now, there is no shipping version of Revolution that is 
fully compatible with Jaguar. That's the OS that I use on all of my 
systems, and the OS used by all of my clients, and their users. The 
betas do exist, but they are still betas. And no, expecting Mac users 
using Jaguar to set Revolution's UI to use OS9's appearance, is NOT 
acceptable.
I don't understand. Do you mean your clients are working with the IDE, 
or with built apps? If the former, then I can see how it would 
uncomfortable saying "erm... you have to select mac os emulated each 
time you launch it, or it will crash". If the latter, IMHO it's not 
that big of a deal.

It has not stopped me from developing in Rev 1.1.1 on OS X, full-time 
for the last 6 months. I would classify Rev 1.1.1's problems with OS X 
as minor inconveniences. There are 3 things I'm aware of:

1) Select Mac OS emulated when I launch Rev IDE (for built apps, 
running Appearance Mgr is fine)
2) Workaround for the shell() command using applescript
3) Rev does not build app bundles, but app bundles are easy to create 
by hand in the Finder.

All in all, Rev is relatively solid for a 1.x product. 'course I'm 
biased because I'm a recovering realbasic user 

Alex Rice, Software Developer
Architectural Research Consultants, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [SC] Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Ken Ray]

> As of right now, there is no shipping version of Revolution that is 
> fully compatible with Jaguar. That's the OS that I use on all of my 
> systems, and the OS used by all of my clients, and their users. The 
> betas do exist, but they are still betas. And no, expecting Mac users 
> using Jaguar to set Revolution's UI to use OS9's appearance, is NOT 
> acceptable.
> 
> Once Rev 2.0 actually ships, then this will be a valid 
> discussion. Hey, 
> if it sounds like I'm being unfair, keep in mind that until SC4 
> actually shipped, the Rev users were saying the same things about the 
> SuperCard betas. I'll be glad to compare shipping products to 
> shipping 
> products, on the current MacOS. It's just that doing so puts Rev in a 
> very unfair place.

True. Keep in mind that the "shipping version" of Revolution is 1.1.1,
which is a year old, and based on the 2.4.1 MetaCard engine. There have
been a couple of significant upgrades to MetaCard since then (2.4.2 and
2.4.3), along with the 2.5 betas. Rev 2.0 will be based on the latest MC
engine (2.5) which brings the solid Jaguar support that MC users have
been enjoying since it came out with 2.4.3 and it's Mach-O format. 

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ 

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Re: [SC] Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Richard Gaskin]

Chilton Webb wrote:

> Once Rev 2.0 actually ships, then this will be a valid discussion. Hey,
> if it sounds like I'm being unfair, keep in mind that until SC4
> actually shipped, the Rev users were saying the same things about the
> SuperCard betas. 

How many of them went to the SC list and made their only post in that
community a knock of the host product?

The Read Me for SC 4.0.1 also describes "long-standing" crashing bugs.  This
doesn't mean that Mark Lucas is a slacker, nor does Rev's bugs mean that
they are slackers.  It simply means that both are software products, and
just about all software always has at least a few bugs (and if they have to
deal with Apple's schizoid Carbon API, they may have more than a few ).

I tried to present an opportunity for us all to continue this discussion on
common ground, but thus far your only two posts seem to want to take things
in very different direction.  I can't remember the last time a disparaging
comment was made about SC here.

Meanwhile, I'm using MetaCard and my cross-platform product got the same
rating in MacWorld as SC just a month before (March, p45), so clearly any OS
X problems are easily fixable as soon as Rev updates their engine.

What exactly are you here to contribute?

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site
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Re: [SC] Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Chilton Webb]

Hi Geoff,

On Saturday, March 15, 2003, at 08:50  PM, Geoff Canyon wrote:

On the Revolution mailing list, on Friday, March 14, 2003, at 06:26 AM,
Tim Hart wrote:
So now that Supercard 4 is out.  What are your opinions?  I was
reading in MacWorld and they kind of made a stab at Rev for waiting so
long to release 2.  I have to say it is funny.  I mean what is the
hold up.  I don't mean to be a jerk but I don't see how they could
possibly miss their original announcement by 4 months of just bug
fixing.  What is going on?
As always happens when a topic like this comes up, there was some
lively debate, a few questions of character, and not much positive
result. When this happened on the REALbasic list last year, I posted a
couple pages on a wiki server with room for opinion. The result was
actually halfway decent, so I've done the same for
SuperCard/Revolution. The home page for discussion is at:
http://wiki.macitworks.com/revdocs/revolutionAndSuperCard
The problem here is that REALBasic's users became apathetic to this 
site a few days after it went live, and Revolution's users did not. The 
arguments became suddenly very one-sided, and still are, to a large 
degree. Furthermore (due to the nature of Wiki, I assume), entire 
sections have been erased to cover up how some people feel about the 
discussion.

As of right now, there is no shipping version of Revolution that is 
fully compatible with Jaguar. That's the OS that I use on all of my 
systems, and the OS used by all of my clients, and their users. The 
betas do exist, but they are still betas. And no, expecting Mac users 
using Jaguar to set Revolution's UI to use OS9's appearance, is NOT 
acceptable.

Once Rev 2.0 actually ships, then this will be a valid discussion. Hey, 
if it sounds like I'm being unfair, keep in mind that until SC4 
actually shipped, the Rev users were saying the same things about the 
SuperCard betas. I'll be glad to compare shipping products to shipping 
products, on the current MacOS. It's just that doing so puts Rev in a 
very unfair place.

-Chilton

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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Geoff Canyon]

On the Revolution mailing list, on Friday, March 14, 2003, at 06:26 AM, 
Tim Hart wrote:

So now that Supercard 4 is out.  What are your opinions?  I was 
reading in MacWorld and they kind of made a stab at Rev for waiting so 
long to release 2.  I have to say it is funny.  I mean what is the 
hold up.  I don't mean to be a jerk but I don't see how they could 
possibly miss their original announcement by 4 months of just bug 
fixing.  What is going on?
As always happens when a topic like this comes up, there was some 
lively debate, a few questions of character, and not much positive 
result. When this happened on the REALbasic list last year, I posted a 
couple pages on a wiki server with room for opinion. The result was 
actually halfway decent, so I've done the same for 
SuperCard/Revolution. The home page for discussion is at:

http://wiki.macitworks.com/revdocs/revolutionAndSuperCard

Right now there isn't much there, but that's the beauty of a wiki: 
_anyone_ can edit the pages. There is no authorization required, no 
permission needed. There are two pages linked from the above URL: one 
for SuperCard's strengths, and another for Revolution's. Feel free to 
browse, and be sure to click the Edit link and add your two cents.

Please be civil. For those unfamiliar with the concept, a wiki is 
supposed to be a polite commons. We get the respect we give. If you're 
curious, here's the current state of the Revolution and REALbasic 
comparison:

http://wiki.macitworks.com/revdocs/revolutionAndRealbasic

It could stand an update, especially in light of REALbasic 5.0, so if 
you know anything on the subject, dig in there as well.

regards,

Geoff Canyon
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Tuviah M Snyder]

>Remember, SuperCard is not xplatform, so it only has 1/2 the problems to
>account for, and it's been a long time since the last upgrade. OTOH, I
still
>wish Supercard the best. There's still room at the table.
Well Rev does support Unix. There are also a number of mac technologies
such as using QT to display all images that can't be used if it is to
remain ' write once, and run anywhere'. At least we are not as bad a Java
though, and you don't suffer because of it (ie. lowest common
denominator). We are continually adding those platform specific
technologies that people need. We are also not at the mercy of any one
technology. For example the XML stuff was not implemented using Apple's
or Microsoft's new XML parsers but by wrapping classes around a widely
available, standard and popular XML library. I don't think it's any
wonder that Apple has used KHTML in creating Safari.

JavaScript is nice, it's typeless, supports some sort of OOP, but hell to
debug with (at least it was 2 years ago). I remember building web sites
using it, and saying wow-wee look guys the little image is moving up and
down, using a timer!

Tuviah Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Runtime Revolution Limited - The Solution for Software Development
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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Heather Williams]

> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 20:06:58 -0600
> Subject: Re: Supercard vs. Rev
> From: Chilton Webb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

> 
>> Richard Gaskin responded:
>> I'm confident that as a long-time xTalker you recognize, as Mark Lucas
>> himself has said, that it's valuable for all xTalk products to support
>> others in different niches.  As long as your question is motivated by a
>> sincere interest in using Rev 2.0 I'm sure no one here would accuse
>> you of
>> being a "jerk".
> On list, this is probably true. Off list, I'm sure he's received about
> as many flames as I have the few times I've posted anything that puts
> Rev in a bad light. Apparently I'm everything from a 'typical Mac
> (expletive deleted)', to a SuperCard Bigot. Hopefully he'll make off a
> bit better.

Hi Chilton. Welcome. If you've been lurking on this list for so long, you
must have some idea by now of it's ethos. I have no control over what is
said off list. I could wish that everyone would get along in tolerance and
harmony, but this is the real world, people have egos, agendas, and
opinions, all of which they are entitled to.

However, by virtue of being appointed listmom, I do have some control over
what is said onlist. This type of personal discussion is definitely not
welcome, and not part of the remit of this list. We are here to discuss
Revolution. This can encompass discussing other tools, even competing tools,
I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is the kind of
post that makes personal remarks about people, does not advance the cause of
anybody's programming abilities, and is likely to cause a flame war on list.
I object to flame wars on list.

So please, by all means post to the list. If you have useful comparisons to
make with SuperCard, make them. If you have comments on programming style,
syntax, the future of xTalk... Great. Personal remarks, please keep off
list. 
> 
>> Thus far the shift from Rev 1.x to 2.0 is moving faster than SC 3.x to
>> 4.0,
>> so any problem lies more with Rev's rush to announce ship dates
>> prematurely
>> than any actual engineering issue.
> This is true, but there are fewer underlying issues they're faced with
> as well (Raney gets to handle the heavy lifting on the engine), so this
> is likely entirely due to making sure the bugs are worked out. Always a
> good thing, in my book.

This is not entirely an accurate statement. Runtime work very closely with
Scott Raney. We have an engineer entirely dedicated to working on the
engine.

> 
>>> Chilton Webb said...
>>> I believe it's a difference in the demands of the users. Because SC
>>> has
>>> been around so long, if SC4 shipped with *any* major bugs, it would be
>>> seen a major failure on the part of the SuperCard team, so the
>>> development cycle for this version was considerably longer than I
>>> think
>>> anyone hoped it would be. But the finished product was worth the wait.
>>> 
>>> SC's installed user base is not as tolerant of the development team's
>>> mistakes as users are on this list.
>> Richard Gaskin responded:
>> I think you may be underestimating the supportiveness of the SC
>> community:
>> searching for "bug" in the SC list archives brought up a few hundred
>> messages, and the conversations there seemed very friendly and
>> supportive of
>> Mark Lucas' excellent work.
> Yes, but had he shipped SC4 with a bug that crashed everything under
> Jaguar, he'd never hear the end of it. Right now, there is not a
> shipping version of Revolution that is entirely safe in Jaguar, unless
> you can work with the old-style MacOS appearance for things.

Which does render it safe under Jaguar. So you can work with that operating
system, as well as Windows, Linux and Unix systems. We don't have the luxury
of putting one operating system first and making everything perfect only on
that one system. That said, 2.0 will eliminate this particular problem.
> 
>> One nice thing about this community is that posts related to other
>> tools are
>> never filtered out, so sincere posts with information useful to the
>> readers
>> here are always welcome.
> I'd question your use of the word 'welcome' here. This list is just as
> bad about flaming people as any other I've been on, the main difference
> is that the flames are kept off-list.

See remarks above... I guess if someone posts something controversial to the
remit of this list, they can expect to get responses to it. All I can do is
ensure the

Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Ken Norris]

**
> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:19:52 -0800 (PST)
> From: Jan Schenkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Supercard vs. Rev

> I have no
> doubt we'll see a solid upgrade emerging soon.
> And having been dependent on Microsoft development
> tools in the past, I'd rather they take their time to
> do it right, not just ship it.
--
AMEN!!

For myself, I have no problem whacking my patience into submission now for
the benefit of not having it tried over and over down the road.

Remember, SuperCard is not xplatform, so it only has 1/2 the problems to
account for, and it's been a long time since the last upgrade. OTOH, I still
wish Supercard the best. There's still room at the table.

Ken N.

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Re: Ironic [was: Supercard vs. Rev]

[Richard Gaskin]

Roger Kenyon wrote:

> Now tune in on the discussion at
> http://kmirror.deskmod.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=14
> and read through the thread "This will probably be unpopular, but..."
> 
> Discomfort with "Java-lite syntax" raises the specter of VBscript, before
> winding around to x-talk (specifically Revolution).
> 
> There is collective shrug from the creator of Konfabulator that, er, well,
> we used JavaScript because it is the scripting language used by Adobe and
> Macromedia so it should be easier for designer-types.
> 
> Another missed opportunity!

:: sigh ::

That's an interesting thread there.  Thanks for posting that.

Who's the poster there under the screen name "Noreen"?  I don't recall her
here, but she seemed very enthusiastic about Rev.  It's nice to se the word
spreading.

> (Move over for a moment, Rich. Rev. Rog is about to take the pulpit.)
> 
> If x-talk can be integrated with HTML (HTML + CSS + x-talk) and people can
> come to think outside the browser (nod to Richard), then the plain-language
> revolution (!) can flourish.

Amen, Brother Roger.  Testify!

We're partway there with Rev's htmlText and url handling, but there's a ways
to go.  CSS is a bear to get out of Rev, and harder still to put in.

But with XML libraries, built-in CDATA (ISO 8859-1 translation), libURL, and
built-in gzip, there are many, many avenues waiting to be explored even
now

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Ironic [was: Supercard vs. Rev]

[edutec]

> Ironically, the most popular scripting language in the world is JavaScript,
> used not only in Web development but also in the IDEs for a great many major
> packages from Adobe, Macromedia, and others.  I say "ironically" because the
> language was never designed for widespread use: it was a weekend project by
> a Netscape engineer that got rushed into the browser when the marketing
> staff heard about it.  All too C-like, it is a needlessly cumbersome and
> tedious language design, fine for compilation but uniquely inefficient for
> real-time interpretation (see Osterhaut,
> ).

Brendan Eich offers some insights in the foreword to Danny Goodman's
Javascript Bible, 4th edition.

"As JavaScript's creator, I would like to say a few words about where
JavaScript has been, where it is going [...] Although the 'natural language'
syntax of HyperTalk was fresh in my mind after a friend lent me 'The
Complete HyperCard Handbook by some fellow named Goodman, the Next Big Thing
weighed heavier, especially in light of another goal: scripting Java
applets. If the scripting language resembled Java, then those programmers
who made the jump from JavaScript to Java would welcome similarities in
syntax. But insisting on Java's class and type declarations, or on a
semicolon after each statement when a line ending would do, were out of the
question -- scripting for most people is about writing short snippets of
code, quickly and without fuss."

Eich has the opportunity to use a natural language syntax for a scripting
language that would make HTML dynamic. Instead, he opts for a "Java-lite
syntax", as he calls it, to ease the learning curve of those migrating from
JavaScript to Java.

What a missed opportunity!

Now tune in on the discussion at
http://kmirror.deskmod.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=14
and read through the thread "This will probably be unpopular, but..."

Discomfort with "Java-lite syntax" raises the specter of VBscript, before
winding around to x-talk (specifically Revolution).

There is collective shrug from the creator of Konfabulator that, er, well,
we used JavaScript because it is the scripting language used by Adobe and
Macromedia so it should be easier for designer-types.

Another missed opportunity!

(Move over for a moment, Rich. Rev. Rog is about to take the pulpit.)

If x-talk can be integrated with HTML (HTML + CSS + x-talk) and people can
come to think outside the browser (nod to Richard), then the plain-language
revolution (!) can flourish.

-- Roger Kenyon

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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Chilton Webb]

First, Ken says...
Hey, Chilton!

I haven't seen you on this list; I guess you're just lurking, eh? ;-)
How quickly one is forgotten when they are quiet ;-)

I've been here since roughly a week after Rev shipped 1.0. But this is 
one of the lists I read in my spare time, which I don't have a lot of 
these days. For the last two years I've been working on a product for a 
client, the final version of which shipped this morning. So I've got a 
bit of time on my hands again.

Tim Hart wrote:
I mean what is the hold up.  I don't mean to be a jerk but I don't see
how they could possibly miss their original announcement by 4 months
of just bug fixing.  What is going on?

Richard Gaskin responded:
I'm confident that as a long-time xTalker you recognize, as Mark Lucas
himself has said, that it's valuable for all xTalk products to support
others in different niches.  As long as your question is motivated by a
sincere interest in using Rev 2.0 I'm sure no one here would accuse 
you of
being a "jerk".
On list, this is probably true. Off list, I'm sure he's received about 
as many flames as I have the few times I've posted anything that puts 
Rev in a bad light. Apparently I'm everything from a 'typical Mac 
(expletive deleted)', to a SuperCard Bigot. Hopefully he'll make off a 
bit better.

Thus far the shift from Rev 1.x to 2.0 is moving faster than SC 3.x to 
4.0,
so any problem lies more with Rev's rush to announce ship dates 
prematurely
than any actual engineering issue.
This is true, but there are fewer underlying issues they're faced with 
as well (Raney gets to handle the heavy lifting on the engine), so this 
is likely entirely due to making sure the bugs are worked out. Always a 
good thing, in my book.

Chilton Webb said...
I believe it's a difference in the demands of the users. Because SC 
has
been around so long, if SC4 shipped with *any* major bugs, it would be
seen a major failure on the part of the SuperCard team, so the
development cycle for this version was considerably longer than I 
think
anyone hoped it would be. But the finished product was worth the wait.

SC's installed user base is not as tolerant of the development team's
mistakes as users are on this list.
Richard Gaskin responded:
I think you may be underestimating the supportiveness of the SC 
community:
searching for "bug" in the SC list archives brought up a few hundred
messages, and the conversations there seemed very friendly and 
supportive of
Mark Lucas' excellent work.
Yes, but had he shipped SC4 with a bug that crashed everything under 
Jaguar, he'd never hear the end of it. Right now, there is not a 
shipping version of Revolution that is entirely safe in Jaguar, unless 
you can work with the old-style MacOS appearance for things.

One nice thing about this community is that posts related to other 
tools are
never filtered out, so sincere posts with information useful to the 
readers
here are always welcome.
I'd question your use of the word 'welcome' here. This list is just as 
bad about flaming people as any other I've been on, the main difference 
is that the flames are kept off-list. Which is probably a good thing. 
But I've seen a few Rev users flamed by their own, for lesser things 
than pointing out the 4 month slip in the 2.0 release date.

As far as I know, the only person filtered from the SC list is Scott 
Raney, who has a long history of posting blatant ads for MetaCard as a 
'solution' to a problem in SC (while this is funny, it isn't always 
helpful). And it's not limited to SuperCard. He had a bit of a 
reputation for this on other lists as well, especially on Usenet.

Scott Simon's decision to filter Raney was at the request of a number 
of users, and not one he wanted to do, from what I can tell.

Now, it is possible that my above statements paint my perception of 
Raney in a bad way. But that's not actually the case. I have nothing 
but respect for his product and his abilities. It's his method of 
interacting with his competition that I find fault in, but not 
necessarily even that. It's more that he's very good at being a 
competitor, which is something quite lacking in the industry right now. 
One key aspect of being a good competitor is annoying your competition.

-Chilton

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complexity (was: Supercard vs. Rev)

[Kurt Kaufman]

> I've never understood why needless complexity always seems to trump
> elegant
> simplicity in the world of computing.
It may be that people in general are inclined to stay with what is 
initially learned or what is familiar, regardless of its level of 
complexity.

-Kurt

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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Todd Geist]

On Friday, March 14, 2003, at 05:22 PM, Jim Lambert wrote:

Amen, again.
I've never understood why needless complexity always seems to trump 
elegant
simplicity in the world of computing.
Because needless complexity allows more people to make money.

Todd

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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Richard Gaskin]

Tim Hart wrote:

> So now that Supercard 4 is out.  What are your opinions?  I was reading
> in MacWorld and they kind of made a stab at Rev for waiting so long to
> release 2.  I have to say it is funny.

My Rev-based product also got a 4.5-mouse review in that magazine just a
month earlier, so I read it with great enthusiasm.  Yet I couldn't find a
reference to Rev's ship date there, only a reference that Rev and RealBASIC
are also in the market, and the reviewer seemed unclear that Rev has been
shipping for OS X and Windows (he forgot to mention Linux and UNIX) for
quite some time now, and of course relative performance was never brought
up.

> I mean what is the hold up.  I don't mean to be a jerk but I don't see
> how they could possibly miss their original announcement by 4 months
> of just bug fixing.  What is going on?

I'm confident that as a long-time xTalker you recognize, as Mark Lucas
himself has said, that it's valuable for all xTalk products to support
others in different niches.  As long as your question is motivated by a
sincere interest in using Rev 2.0 I'm sure no one here would accuse you of
being a "jerk".

Thus far the shift from Rev 1.x to 2.0 is moving faster than SC 3.x to 4.0,
so any problem lies more with Rev's rush to announce ship dates prematurely
than any actual engineering issue.

What Rev 2.0 features are holding up your work?  I'll bet we could come up
with some acceptable alternatives to keep your project moving forward in the
meantime.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge 2.2: Publish any database on any site
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RE: Supercard vs. Rev

[Ken Ray]

Hey, Chilton!

I haven't seen you on this list; I guess you're just lurking, eh? ;-)

> I believe it's a difference in the demands of the users. 
> Because SC has 
> been around so long, if SC4 shipped with *any* major bugs, it 
> would be 
> seen a major failure on the part of the SuperCard team, so the 
> development cycle for this version was considerably longer 
> than I think 
> anyone hoped it would be. But the finished product was worth the wait.

Since nothing had been heard from SC in the public arena after
Allegiant's demise (if I remember correctly), it was also very important
for media coverage that the next major upgrade be pretty bug free. This
is most likely why Rev 2.0 has been taking so long as well; 1.1.1 was
the last version to be covered in the media, and knowing that 2.0 is a
next major upgrade, it is important to make sure all the major bugs are
squashed.
 
> SC's installed user base is not as tolerant of the development team's 
> mistakes as users are on this list.

That's what I like about the users on this list; they are more forgiving
than most. I know dozens of SC users who "jumped ship" earlier than I
would have expected in the early 3.x days because of Allegiant's failed
Windows promises... I was working for Allegiant at the time, so I had
first hand experience. Of course, this was the marketing team and not
the development team, so I guess it's a bit different... 

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ 


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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Chilton Webb]

Hi Judy,

On Friday, March 14, 2003, at 11:01  AM, Judy Perry 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I guess MacWorld is forgetting how many years it took to get from SC
3.x to SC4 being out the door and shipping.  Not to stab at SC, as I'm
glad that they're alive, well and in the market... but for a while it
looked to the outside observer as if SC 4 was NEVER coming.
I believe it's a difference in the demands of the users. Because SC has 
been around so long, if SC4 shipped with *any* major bugs, it would be 
seen a major failure on the part of the SuperCard team, so the 
development cycle for this version was considerably longer than I think 
anyone hoped it would be. But the finished product was worth the wait.

SC's installed user base is not as tolerant of the development team's 
mistakes as users are on this list.

-Chilton

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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Jan Schenkel]

--- Jan Schenkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Tim Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So now that Supercard 4 is out.  What are your
> > opinions?  I was reading 
> > in MacWorld and they kind of made a stab at Rev
> for
> > waiting so long to 
> > release 2.  I have to say it is funny.  I mean
> what
> > is the hold up.  I 
> > don't mean to be a jerk but I don't see how they
> > could possibly miss 
> > their original announcement by 4 months of just
> bug
> > fixing.  What is 
> > going on?
> > 
> 
> Well, Tim, let's see how a group of developers
> usually
> ends up in this type of situation :
> - have a large number of users all asking for
> extensions for their particular field of work
> - worst-case scenario extension to this is when you
> have a bunch of salespeople promising heaven on
> earth
> without having a clue as to how much work is needed
> - have a huge load of brilliant ideas yourself and
> feel the urge to squeeze them all in
> - make quick prototypes and horribly underestimate
> the
> time needed to not only fully develop them, but also
> to debug them and subsequently polish the thing
> 'till
> it shines
> - realise late in the project that you'll have to
> change the line up for either short-term or
> long-term
> compatibility
> - be dependent on another vendor for core technology
> (MetaCard 2.5 is still in beta, and I don't think
> that
> was exactly planned either)
> - have to find work-arounds for limitations, bugs
> and
> incompatibilities at OS level
> - interrupt your schedule for work that will bring
> in
> cash right away rather than getting sucked dry by a
> project that is already behind schedule
> - feel the competition breathing down your neck and
> the subsequent additional feature creep
> - mix in pressure from a few more angles, and see
> some
> people actually underperforming because of it
> - add bugs because of all this, and you get a very
> tough product development cycle
> 

And in all this, I haven't even touched the surface of
personnel change -- again, no indication of that
happening over at RunRev HQ ; but another factor that
can seriously impact the development cycle.
It's a shame one can't _really_ make software at the
speed of thought. Though some tools make it a lot
easier indeed.

Jan Schenkel.

=
"As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."  (La 
Rochefoucauld)

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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Jan Schenkel]

--- Tim Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So now that Supercard 4 is out.  What are your
> opinions?  I was reading 
> in MacWorld and they kind of made a stab at Rev for
> waiting so long to 
> release 2.  I have to say it is funny.  I mean what
> is the hold up.  I 
> don't mean to be a jerk but I don't see how they
> could possibly miss 
> their original announcement by 4 months of just bug
> fixing.  What is 
> going on?
> 

Well, Til, let's see how a group of developers usually
ends up in this type of situation :
- have a large number of users all asking for
extensions for their particular field of work
- worst-case scenario extension to this is when you
have a bunch of salespeople promising heaven on earth
without having a clue as to how much work is needed
- have a huge load of brilliant ideas yourself and
feel the urge to squeeze them all in
- make quick prototypes and horribly underestimate the
time needed to not only fully develop them, but also
to debug them and subsequently polish the thing 'till
it shines
- realise late in the project that you'll have to
change the line up for either short-term or long-term
compatibility
- be dependent on another vendor for core technology
(MetaCard 2.5 is still in beta, and I don't think that
was exactly planned either)
- have to find work-arounds for limitations, bugs and
incompatibilities at OS level
- interrupt your schedule for work that will bring in
cash right away rather than getting sucked dry by a
project that is already behind schedule
- feel the competition breathing down your neck and
the subsequent additional feature creep
- mix in pressure from a few more angles, and see some
people actually underperforming because of it
- add bugs because of all this, and you get a very
tough product development cycle

Of course I have no clue which of the above applies to
RunRev. However, having been in the business myself
for some time, whilst keeping my eyes open, has shown
that the above in some cases culminates in projects
that have spun out of control and need the plug pulled
(Pink/Taligent/Copland anyone?)

However, the fact that we've seen a steady stream of
pre-beta updates lately goes to show that no panic is
needed. As eager as anyone here on this list to get my
grubby little paws on the final version, I have no
doubt we'll see a solid upgrade emerging soon.
And having been dependent on Microsoft development
tools in the past, I'd rather they take their time to
do it right, not just ship it.

Just my two euro-cents,

Jan Schenkel.

=
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Re: Supercard vs. Rev

[Judy Perry]

I guess MacWorld is forgetting how many years it took to get from SC
3.x to SC4 being out the door and shipping.  Not to stab at SC, as I'm
glad that they're alive, well and in the market... but for a while it
looked to the outside observer as if SC 4 was NEVER coming.

Judy

On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, Tim Hart wrote:

> So now that Supercard 4 is out.  What are your opinions?  I was reading
> in MacWorld and they kind of made a stab at Rev for waiting so long to
> release 2.  I have to say it is funny.  I mean what is the hold up.  I
> don't mean to be a jerk but I don't see how they could possibly miss
> their original announcement by 4 months of just bug fixing.  What is
> going on?

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Supercard vs. Rev

[Tim Hart]

So now that Supercard 4 is out.  What are your opinions?  I was reading 
in MacWorld and they kind of made a stab at Rev for waiting so long to 
release 2.  I have to say it is funny.  I mean what is the hold up.  I 
don't mean to be a jerk but I don't see how they could possibly miss 
their original announcement by 4 months of just bug fixing.  What is 
going on?

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