Re: [OT] RE: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

[Ted Husted]

At this point, I'd suggest that we are all just "preaching to the choir" :)

S1 and S2 are similar, and anything we can do with S2 we can do with
S1. But the elegant, flexible S2 design makes many things a lot easier
to do.

It's great that S2 is working well for you, Raja, and I hope you'll
post again with any questions, concerns, or helpful hints.

-- HTH, Ted
 * 


On Dec 18, 2007 4:16 AM, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- "Sekhar, Raja" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The above three derive of CalculatorActionSupport,
> > where they support create, read, update and price actions  ( CRUP )
> >
> > This flexibility in struts2 allows me to use the power OOP on server
> > side action methods.
> > Struts1 cannot do the same.
>
> We may just be having a language issue.
>
> I had a class hierarchy in my S1 projects as well, put cross-cutting
> functionality in superclasses, etc.
>
> While I also believe S2 is a better platform, that isn't one of the reasons,
> because there is nothing specific to S2 here.
>
>
> d.

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[OT] RE: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

[Dave Newton]

--- "Sekhar, Raja" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The above three derive of CalculatorActionSupport, 
> where they support create, read, update and price actions  ( CRUP )
> 
> This flexibility in struts2 allows me to use the power OOP on server
> side action methods.
> Struts1 cannot do the same.

We may just be having a language issue.

I had a class hierarchy in my S1 projects as well, put cross-cutting
functionality in superclasses, etc.

While I also believe S2 is a better platform, that isn't one of the reasons,
because there is nothing specific to S2 here.

d.


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RE: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

[Sekhar, Raja]

 Yes technically one could do all this struts1 as well, 

 but only the ease at which we can get it done... But not everything is
leveraged in struts1

 Take this for example,


 
|  ActionSupport |
 
^
|
|
|
 
|CalculatorActionSupport |
 


CRUPSwaptionCRUPSwapCRUPCapFloor


The above three derive of CalculatorActionSupport, 
where they support create, read, update and price actions  ( CRUP )

This flexibility in struts2 allows me to use the power OOP on server
side action methods.
Struts1 cannot do the same.

Sorry planned dates is wrong. I got confused.

https://issues.apache.org/struts/browse/WW?report=com.sourcelabs.jira.pl
ugin.portlet.releases:releases-projecttab

My statement was based on some responses on the mailing list, 
where announcements of releases after testing for GA happen to be
mentioned.




-Original Message-
From: Dave Newton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 10:51 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

--- "Sekhar, Raja" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  -- ability to map multiple actions to diff
>   methods of the same class
> -- tiles integration to reuse gui components

In all fairness, these are not features unique to S2; S1 could do all
that as well.

>   -- continuos release cycles with planned dates,

We have planned dates? I was aware of that. Where are you getting the
dates from?

d.


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RE: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

[Dave Newton]

--- "Sekhar, Raja" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  -- ability to map multiple actions to diff
>   methods of the same class
> -- tiles integration to reuse gui components

In all fairness, these are not features unique to S2; S1 could do all that as
well.

>   -- continuos release cycles with planned dates,

We have planned dates? I was aware of that. Where are you getting the dates
from?

d.



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RE: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

[Sekhar, Raja]

 We have deployed a stable pricing calculators using struts2 ( 2.0.8 )
on jboss 4
 We have moved away from the old jsp architecture to s2

some of the key considerations/features/benefits are
 
- Reusability 
-- ability to map multiple actions to diff
methods of the same class
-- tiles integration to reuse gui components


- Framework featurs
-- use introspection to create beans/class
instances/variables based on the names in gui to ones in srvr
-- validation 
-- tag libs ( this is a highlight of s2 )

- Good user group support
-- active threads on various topics
-- continuos release cycles with planned dates,
JIRA issue tracking

- Dojo support with performance tuning

- Flexibility to play around/modify
Right now I have tweaked the css_xhtml theme for
validation, 
The css_xhtml theme displays the error msgs in a
div, I modified validation.js
to show all the error msgs in a div called error
div, which gives me the ability to show all the errors
at one place, rather than spread the error msg
next each field.
This is lot cleaner interms of user experience

So all in all I would recomment struts2. My knowledge however is
not enough to comment on struts2-jsf integration.
Because I have read one comment in struts2 documenation that
this combination was to enable what each does best.
so the gui tags of jsf leaves a lot to be explored for me.
However, I see that struts2 is powerful enough replicate
complex gui's, on the fly variable creation in gui ( say a
schedule ) and capturing on the server side

I myself havent explored the richness of all the features.

My sincere thanks to the struts2 team, you guys have done a
great job 
Thanks to all the contributors to this user-support mailing
list, without whose help many questions would have
been left unanswered !!! 
Our application is quiet stable, and gives us good performance
too. 
I am gonna encourage my friends to consider struts2 as a
middleware framework for many applications !!

Regarsd




-Original Message-
From: Jeff Amiel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 7:03 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

On Dec 12, 2007 11:28 PM, Jeromy Evans
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I agree with Dave.  S2 has been exceptionally robust. I find the core 
> framework is more productive and even more pleasurable (!) to work 
> with compared to S1.

This is a key for me.  My team and I have been using an ancient version
of struts 1.X for over 3.5 years on the same project and I am evaluating
struts 2 to see if some of the webwork mentality (convention over
configuration) and other elements will make it more 'pleasurable' in our
day-to-day coding.  Sometimes even doing things 'differently' after
doing the same thing the same way over and over again can be
'pleasurable'.  I'm converting over a small struts 1.X system and taking
careful notes of the pros and cons and hope to be done soon.  From a
business perspective I know if something works, don't mess with it.  But
there are real people spending 40-60 hours per week coding and their
ultimate happiness has a great impact on the resulting product.
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designated recipient(s) named above.  If you are not the intended recipient of 
this message you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.  This 
communication is for information purposes only and should not be regarded as an 
offer to sell or as a solicitation of an offer to buy any financial product, an 
official confirmation of any transaction, or as an official statement of Lehman 
Brothers.  Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free.  
Therefore, we do not represent that this information is complete or accurate 
and it should not be relied upon as such.  All information is subject to change 
without notice.




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Re: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

[Ted Husted]

On Dec 13, 2007 5:46 AM, Ian Roughley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Like Ted, I'm also putting together training options - specifically a
> "quick start" for s1 developers who want to get up and running with s2.
> So it would cover all the basics, as well as the more advanced
> features.  I'm also considering running it as public training rather
> than private - if any one has interest (haven't settled on cities yet),
> drop me a line off-list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).

Feel free to use my course materials as a starting point. All the
courseware is under the Apache License, and other people have used the
materials for in-company training.

 * http://www.StrutsUniversity.org/

-Ted.

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Re: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

[Ian Roughley]

Finally, in terms of education, there's some good books out now and 
there's a lot of sites providing tutorials (that reminds me, I'm going 
to order Ian's book today[1]).  However, I don't know of any 
professional training courses yet and there's far fewer developers 
already knowledgeable on S2 than S1.
Like Ted, I'm also putting together training options - specifically a 
"quick start" for s1 developers who want to get up and running with s2.  
So it would cover all the basics, as well as the more advanced 
features.  I'm also considering running it as public training rather 
than private - if any one has interest (haven't settled on cities yet), 
drop me a line off-list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).


/Ian

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Re: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

[Jeff Amiel]

On Dec 12, 2007 11:28 PM, Jeromy Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I agree with Dave.  S2 has been exceptionally robust. I find the core
> framework is more productive and even more pleasurable (!) to work with
> compared to S1.

This is a key for me.  My team and I have been using an ancient
version of struts 1.X for over 3.5 years on the same project and I am
evaluating struts 2 to see if some of the webwork mentality
(convention over configuration) and other elements will make it more
'pleasurable' in our day-to-day coding.  Sometimes even doing things
'differently' after doing the same thing the same way over and over
again can be 'pleasurable'.  I'm converting over a small struts 1.X
system and taking careful notes of the pros and cons and hope to be
done soon.  From a business perspective I know if something works,
don't mess with it.  But there are real people spending 40-60 hours
per week coding and their ultimate happiness has a great impact on the
resulting product.

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Re: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

[Ted Husted]

On Dec 12, 2007 9:28 PM, Jeromy Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Finally, in terms of education, there's some good books out now and
> there's a lot of sites providing tutorials (that reminds me, I'm going
> to order Ian's book today[1]).  However, I don't know of any
> professional training courses yet

:) There's mine  :)

In fact, later today, I'm finishing up a JPA/Struts2 training session
for a leading financial institution.


> Good luck advertising a job for an
> experienced S2 developer, whereas almost everyone trained in Java has
> some familiarity with S1.

Though, some people are. A search on Dice today for (webwork strut2
"struts 2" "struts 2.0") brings back 73 jobs.

For comparison, Tapestry brings back 92, and Wicket 18. JSF or
"JavaServer Faces" brings back 1128, and "plain old" Struts brings
back 2209.

HTH, Ted.
http://husted.com/ted/Home.html

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Re: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

[Jeromy Evans]

Dave Newton wrote:

--- Rubens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

I need to make a decision whether to use Struts vs Struts2.



Even a year ago I would have used S2 over S1; AFAIC there's absolutely no
question whatsoever.

S2 is being used in production apps; I have two running now, will have two
more Q1, and know personally of several others, some in some pretty
mission-critical application spaces.

The issues I've had have been pretty easy to work around so far, although
there haven't been many show-stoppers.

d.
  
I agree with Dave.  S2 has been exceptionally robust. I find the core 
framework is more productive and even more pleasurable (!) to work with 
compared to S1.  The framework itself has never missed a beat for us 
other than allowing a couple of security vulnerabilities sneak in via 
OGNL.  If you value your developers give them an opportunity to play 
with S2.


The issues we do encounter have always related to specific tag libraries 
(eg. dojo integration) and these have never been insurmountable. I now 
take the view that its better to learn client-side libraries properly 
rather than hope a struts2 tag can do everything for you. eg. trying 
to use dojo in a large webapp without genuinely understanding it is 
bound to cause problems.  Interaction between other EL's and OGNL 
has been annoying but I'd rather have OGNL than not.  The source of S2 
is readable and reasonably well documented (javadoc) and the community 
is helpful.


S2 does still suffer a little from being a moving target, particular 
whether to develop against the 2.0 or 2.1 baselines.  The 2.0.x 
increments have been relatively smooth to follow (except 2.0.11 which 
was a pain).  2.1 includes some great improvements but they haven't 
settled down completely for me to commit migrating 2.0 applications to 
it.  I do use 2.1 for new applications and once-again my only issues are 
with specific plugins.


With respect to performance S2 has been adequate for us.  I have no 
evidence but the framework must be significantly slower than S1 though. 
However, for us, the framework has been a negligible contributor to the 
overall time to process requests.


In terms of evolution I'm confident to commit to S2 it on the basis it 
will still be around in several years.  I anticipate some of the tag 
libraries will become stale but it's difficult to fault the architecture 
of the framework itself.  For example, the new rest plugin that delivers 
a response type (html, json, xml, etc) based on the type requested (all 
from the same model) demonstrates S2 has a promising future in SOA 
apps.  My own work is likely to head in that direction and stop using 
server-side tag libraries altogether and S2 is still a strong 
candidate.  The integration of JRuby and Groovy with S2 are also very 
promising developments.


I do have a minor concern that the future of S2 rests solely on the 
interest of a few key developers, but that's probably the case with any 
open source project.  I think there's enough evidence that as people 
drop-off others take up the slack, but it would be sooo good if someone 
was simply paid or motivated to get releases out.  As the dev's are 
volunteers they generally tinker around the leading edge but few have 
the time or inclination to think about pushing forward with the software 
engineering processes (thanks Ted!).  I imagine S1 has the same issue or 
worse.


Finally, in terms of education, there's some good books out now and 
there's a lot of sites providing tutorials (that reminds me, I'm going 
to order Ian's book today[1]).  However, I don't know of any 
professional training courses yet and there's far fewer developers 
already knowledgeable on S2 than S1.  Good luck advertising a job for an 
experienced S2 developer, whereas almost everyone trained in Java has 
some familiarity with S1.  That has to be an important consideration for 
any new project..


I probably would not use S2 where the scale is so huge that I'd be 
treading into uncharted waters, and where Java 1.4 or below is 
mandatory.  In the latter case I'd also charge the client more money due 
to the loss of productivity ;-)


Hope that helps,
Jeromy Evans

[1] A good book: 
http://opensource.atlassian.com/confluence/oss/display/BOOKS/ISBN-1590599039




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Re: Is Struts2 ready for prime time?

[Dave Newton]

--- Rubens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I need to make a decision whether to use Struts vs Struts2.

Even a year ago I would have used S2 over S1; AFAIC there's absolutely no
question whatsoever.

S2 is being used in production apps; I have two running now, will have two
more Q1, and know personally of several others, some in some pretty
mission-critical application spaces.

The issues I've had have been pretty easy to work around so far, although
there haven't been many show-stoppers.

d.

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