Re: Uploading: And a Wish List for Struts v1.3 and v2.0 Jericho
The wiki list is for trying to convince the struts developers to take Struts 1.3 chain to a place that alternative upload applications can be submitted? I think this is an irrelevant response to a substantial question. Jacki On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 20:14:28 -0800, Craig McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you describe is pretty much what the Wiki is for (http://wiki.apache.org/struts). There are no limitations on who can post to it (other than having to have a valid login), and nothing that is on topic - i.e. generally related to the development of Struts - is likely to be frowned on. Of course, that won't work any better than mailing lists do until people start writing code instead of writing words. If you want to see some feature constructed, make it so, by doing it! (Among other reasons, this is why you see me focusing more on code than on the mailing lists, for example.) If nobody ever does this, wishes will just remain wishes. Craig On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:59:56 -0500, Frank W. Zammetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You know what might actually make a wish list more interesting (at least to me)? What if we had a site we could go to and see a list of all the pie-in-the-sky kinds of things people wanted, and I as someone who might want to contribute could say gee, X over here sounds very interesting to me, I'd like to do that and I could kind of assign it to myself? This might sound a little bit like Bugzilla or SourceForge, but I think it would serve a different purpose and have some different features... For instance, what it one of the things it did was every week or two sent out an eMail to the person who said they were working on something and requested an update? If no response was recieved in 48 hours lets say, then the person loses their assignment. That doesn't mean they can't still work on it, just that as far as the community knows, no one is actively working on that project. Such a site would serve as something of a central clearing house for the various wish list items people have. A person could go there and see what people want, what is being worked on, what the current status is, etc. This would minimize duplication of effort, and would also help two people interested in the same thing get together and help each other. I don't propose that this would be anything officially sanctioned, certainly not initially, nor would it be anything other than kind of a meeting place and status database (i.e., I'm not talking about storing code or posting releases like SF or anything). It just seems to me that we all have our own wish lists, and some of us are willing to put in some effort to implement some of the ideas. Wouldn't we all help ourselves and each other by introducing some minor level of organization to such efforts? We certainly can't all know what each other is doing all the time, so isn't anything that facilitates communication a Good Thing(tm)? I would be more than willing to put such a site together, and I'd even be willing to host it (assuming it didn't prove to be a financial burden). But I'd like to know if I'm the only one that thinks it might be a good idea or not first. :) -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com Ted Husted wrote: On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:56:02 -0800, Dakota Jack wrote: Hope this is helpful. If not, please understand it was meant to be helpful. Wish lists like this are mildly interesting, but what's helpful is when people give back to the community by creating new extensions. A Struts Upload extension would probably be interesting to a lot of people. But someone who uses one must be the one to create it. Just like when Steve created ssl-ext, and Hubert created FormDef, and Frank created WS, and Don created Scripting, and once upon a time, when David created Validator and Cedric created Tiles. All of us are writing applications. The difference is that a few kind souls package their stuff to share with others. -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Uploading: And a Wish List for Struts v1.3 and v2.0 Jericho
I wish I had never said wish list. I was talking about a KIND OF INTERFACE needed in Struts and the example application is just to show what KIND OF INTERFACE might be helpful. DId no one get that? I try to save space by not spelling out what seems to be obvious and I get these answers from left field. What this upload application needs to utilize ActionForm is something other applications that are not multipart request oriented also need. Can we abstract a little here? This is not a wish list for the upload. I SAID THAT THE UPLOAD WAS BUILT, RUNNING, ETC. The wish list is that Struts could ACCOMMODATE this sort of structure in applications generally. Sheezsch, I must be horrible at communicating and you guys must be horrible at reading. How can the upload application be the wish list when it is built and in production? Sorry, Frank! You ususally read everything very closely and I usually have this same frustration with others. Jack On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:59:56 -0500, Frank W. Zammetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You know what might actually make a wish list more interesting (at least to me)? What if we had a site we could go to and see a list of all the pie-in-the-sky kinds of things people wanted, and I as someone who might want to contribute could say gee, X over here sounds very interesting to me, I'd like to do that and I could kind of assign it to myself? This might sound a little bit like Bugzilla or SourceForge, but I think it would serve a different purpose and have some different features... For instance, what it one of the things it did was every week or two sent out an eMail to the person who said they were working on something and requested an update? If no response was recieved in 48 hours lets say, then the person loses their assignment. That doesn't mean they can't still work on it, just that as far as the community knows, no one is actively working on that project. Such a site would serve as something of a central clearing house for the various wish list items people have. A person could go there and see what people want, what is being worked on, what the current status is, etc. This would minimize duplication of effort, and would also help two people interested in the same thing get together and help each other. I don't propose that this would be anything officially sanctioned, certainly not initially, nor would it be anything other than kind of a meeting place and status database (i.e., I'm not talking about storing code or posting releases like SF or anything). It just seems to me that we all have our own wish lists, and some of us are willing to put in some effort to implement some of the ideas. Wouldn't we all help ourselves and each other by introducing some minor level of organization to such efforts? We certainly can't all know what each other is doing all the time, so isn't anything that facilitates communication a Good Thing(tm)? I would be more than willing to put such a site together, and I'd even be willing to host it (assuming it didn't prove to be a financial burden). But I'd like to know if I'm the only one that thinks it might be a good idea or not first. :) -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com Ted Husted wrote: On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:56:02 -0800, Dakota Jack wrote: Hope this is helpful. If not, please understand it was meant to be helpful. Wish lists like this are mildly interesting, but what's helpful is when people give back to the community by creating new extensions. A Struts Upload extension would probably be interesting to a lot of people. But someone who uses one must be the one to create it. Just like when Steve created ssl-ext, and Hubert created FormDef, and Frank created WS, and Don created Scripting, and once upon a time, when David created Validator and Cedric created Tiles. All of us are writing applications. The difference is that a few kind souls package their stuff to share with others. -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Uploading: And a Wish List for Struts v1.3 and v2.0 Jericho
If you check the discussions I have had with Niall on this on this list, that might be helpful. He understands clearly what I am talking about and where the extension points in 1.3 need to be tweeked in relation to this real problem. This submission was to be a helpful addition to that discussion, and instead has degenerated into this irrelevant whatever stuff. Jack On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:42:38 -0500, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:56:02 -0800, Dakota Jack wrote: Hope this is helpful. If not, please understand it was meant to be helpful. Wish lists like this are mildly interesting, but what's helpful is when people give back to the community by creating new extensions. A Struts Upload extension would probably be interesting to a lot of people. But someone who uses one must be the one to create it. Just like when Steve created ssl-ext, and Hubert created FormDef, and Frank created WS, and Don created Scripting, and once upon a time, when David created Validator and Cedric created Tiles. All of us are writing applications. The difference is that a few kind souls package their stuff to share with others. -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Uploading: And a Wish List for Struts v1.3 and v2.0 Jericho
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:56:02 -0800, Dakota Jack wrote: Hope this is helpful. If not, please understand it was meant to be helpful. Wish lists like this are mildly interesting, but what's helpful is when people give back to the community by creating new extensions. A Struts Upload extension would probably be interesting to a lot of people. But someone who uses one must be the one to create it. Just like when Steve created ssl-ext, and Hubert created FormDef, and Frank created WS, and Don created Scripting, and once upon a time, when David created Validator and Cedric created Tiles. All of us are writing applications. The difference is that a few kind souls package their stuff to share with others. -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Uploading: And a Wish List for Struts v1.3 and v2.0 Jericho
You know what might actually make a wish list more interesting (at least to me)? What if we had a site we could go to and see a list of all the pie-in-the-sky kinds of things people wanted, and I as someone who might want to contribute could say gee, X over here sounds very interesting to me, I'd like to do that and I could kind of assign it to myself? This might sound a little bit like Bugzilla or SourceForge, but I think it would serve a different purpose and have some different features... For instance, what it one of the things it did was every week or two sent out an eMail to the person who said they were working on something and requested an update? If no response was recieved in 48 hours lets say, then the person loses their assignment. That doesn't mean they can't still work on it, just that as far as the community knows, no one is actively working on that project. Such a site would serve as something of a central clearing house for the various wish list items people have. A person could go there and see what people want, what is being worked on, what the current status is, etc. This would minimize duplication of effort, and would also help two people interested in the same thing get together and help each other. I don't propose that this would be anything officially sanctioned, certainly not initially, nor would it be anything other than kind of a meeting place and status database (i.e., I'm not talking about storing code or posting releases like SF or anything). It just seems to me that we all have our own wish lists, and some of us are willing to put in some effort to implement some of the ideas. Wouldn't we all help ourselves and each other by introducing some minor level of organization to such efforts? We certainly can't all know what each other is doing all the time, so isn't anything that facilitates communication a Good Thing(tm)? I would be more than willing to put such a site together, and I'd even be willing to host it (assuming it didn't prove to be a financial burden). But I'd like to know if I'm the only one that thinks it might be a good idea or not first. :) -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com Ted Husted wrote: On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:56:02 -0800, Dakota Jack wrote: Hope this is helpful. If not, please understand it was meant to be helpful. Wish lists like this are mildly interesting, but what's helpful is when people give back to the community by creating new extensions. A Struts Upload extension would probably be interesting to a lot of people. But someone who uses one must be the one to create it. Just like when Steve created ssl-ext, and Hubert created FormDef, and Frank created WS, and Don created Scripting, and once upon a time, when David created Validator and Cedric created Tiles. All of us are writing applications. The difference is that a few kind souls package their stuff to share with others. -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Uploading: And a Wish List for Struts v1.3 and v2.0 Jericho
What you describe is pretty much what the Wiki is for (http://wiki.apache.org/struts). There are no limitations on who can post to it (other than having to have a valid login), and nothing that is on topic - i.e. generally related to the development of Struts - is likely to be frowned on. Of course, that won't work any better than mailing lists do until people start writing code instead of writing words. If you want to see some feature constructed, make it so, by doing it! (Among other reasons, this is why you see me focusing more on code than on the mailing lists, for example.) If nobody ever does this, wishes will just remain wishes. Craig On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:59:56 -0500, Frank W. Zammetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You know what might actually make a wish list more interesting (at least to me)? What if we had a site we could go to and see a list of all the pie-in-the-sky kinds of things people wanted, and I as someone who might want to contribute could say gee, X over here sounds very interesting to me, I'd like to do that and I could kind of assign it to myself? This might sound a little bit like Bugzilla or SourceForge, but I think it would serve a different purpose and have some different features... For instance, what it one of the things it did was every week or two sent out an eMail to the person who said they were working on something and requested an update? If no response was recieved in 48 hours lets say, then the person loses their assignment. That doesn't mean they can't still work on it, just that as far as the community knows, no one is actively working on that project. Such a site would serve as something of a central clearing house for the various wish list items people have. A person could go there and see what people want, what is being worked on, what the current status is, etc. This would minimize duplication of effort, and would also help two people interested in the same thing get together and help each other. I don't propose that this would be anything officially sanctioned, certainly not initially, nor would it be anything other than kind of a meeting place and status database (i.e., I'm not talking about storing code or posting releases like SF or anything). It just seems to me that we all have our own wish lists, and some of us are willing to put in some effort to implement some of the ideas. Wouldn't we all help ourselves and each other by introducing some minor level of organization to such efforts? We certainly can't all know what each other is doing all the time, so isn't anything that facilitates communication a Good Thing(tm)? I would be more than willing to put such a site together, and I'd even be willing to host it (assuming it didn't prove to be a financial burden). But I'd like to know if I'm the only one that thinks it might be a good idea or not first. :) -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com Ted Husted wrote: On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:56:02 -0800, Dakota Jack wrote: Hope this is helpful. If not, please understand it was meant to be helpful. Wish lists like this are mildly interesting, but what's helpful is when people give back to the community by creating new extensions. A Struts Upload extension would probably be interesting to a lot of people. But someone who uses one must be the one to create it. Just like when Steve created ssl-ext, and Hubert created FormDef, and Frank created WS, and Don created Scripting, and once upon a time, when David created Validator and Cedric created Tiles. All of us are writing applications. The difference is that a few kind souls package their stuff to share with others. -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Uploading: And a Wish List for Struts v1.3 and v2.0 Jericho
Craig, just wanted to mention that Thunderbird thought your message was junk. You haven't gotten into a fight with anyone on that development team lately, have you?!? :) (Don't worry, I set it straight regardless!) Craig McClanahan wrote: What you describe is pretty much what the Wiki is for (http://wiki.apache.org/struts). I'm not sure I agree with that... I would certainly agree that the Wiki COULD be used for this purpose, but I know for me at least, when I think of the Wiki I think of a place I can go to find an answer to a question. I view it as something of a FAQ that anyone can contribute to (which I suppose is almost the actual definition of Wiki!). But if I found myself wondering whether an item on my own wish list was an idea shared by others and might be actually in development by someone, I wouldn't think of the Wiki as the place to go for an answer. Maybe its just a matter of me not looking at it properly though :) One could argue that the mailing list(s) serve this purpose, but I think its too easy to miss things on the list. Also, part of what I was proposing, potentially a very valuable part, is the somewhat proactive nature of it (i.e., tickling for status). There's more that could be done in this vein as well, but that's a start. I think this goes to your very valid point about people doing more and saying less (my paraphrasing). I'm guilty of this myself to a degree, but I do have contributions to various projects out there, so not as much as some others at least :) But, my reason for posting the idea was to see what people thought, and if everyone agrees that the Wiki does the job, then that's good enough for me :) This isn't the type of thing I can just go off and do and use it myself even if no one else buys into it... Since buy in by others is integral to what it would be, I don't want to spend time working on it if I don't have that buy in first, so by all means if everyone agrees with you Craig, thats just as valuable a conclusion to me as the other... perhaps not as fun, but I can live with that :) -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:59:56 -0500, Frank W. Zammetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You know what might actually make a wish list more interesting (at least to me)? What if we had a site we could go to and see a list of all the pie-in-the-sky kinds of things people wanted, and I as someone who might want to contribute could say gee, X over here sounds very interesting to me, I'd like to do that and I could kind of assign it to myself? This might sound a little bit like Bugzilla or SourceForge, but I think it would serve a different purpose and have some different features... For instance, what it one of the things it did was every week or two sent out an eMail to the person who said they were working on something and requested an update? If no response was recieved in 48 hours lets say, then the person loses their assignment. That doesn't mean they can't still work on it, just that as far as the community knows, no one is actively working on that project. Such a site would serve as something of a central clearing house for the various wish list items people have. A person could go there and see what people want, what is being worked on, what the current status is, etc. This would minimize duplication of effort, and would also help two people interested in the same thing get together and help each other. I don't propose that this would be anything officially sanctioned, certainly not initially, nor would it be anything other than kind of a meeting place and status database (i.e., I'm not talking about storing code or posting releases like SF or anything). It just seems to me that we all have our own wish lists, and some of us are willing to put in some effort to implement some of the ideas. Wouldn't we all help ourselves and each other by introducing some minor level of organization to such efforts? We certainly can't all know what each other is doing all the time, so isn't anything that facilitates communication a Good Thing(tm)? I would be more than willing to put such a site together, and I'd even be willing to host it (assuming it didn't prove to be a financial burden). But I'd like to know if I'm the only one that thinks it might be a good idea or not first. :) -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com Ted Husted wrote: On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:56:02 -0800, Dakota Jack wrote: Hope this is helpful. If not, please understand it was meant to be helpful. Wish lists like this are mildly interesting, but what's helpful is when people give back to the community by creating new extensions. A Struts Upload extension would probably be interesting to a lot of people. But someone who uses one must be the one to create it. Just like when Steve created ssl-ext, and Hubert created FormDef, and
Re: Uploading: And a Wish List for Struts v1.3 and v2.0 Jericho
On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 23:35:43 -0500, Frank W. Zammetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Craig, just wanted to mention that Thunderbird thought your message was junk. You haven't gotten into a fight with anyone on that development team lately, have you?!? :) (Don't worry, I set it straight regardless!) Talk to the Google folks, since I use Gmail :-). Craig McClanahan wrote: What you describe is pretty much what the Wiki is for (http://wiki.apache.org/struts). I'm not sure I agree with that... I would certainly agree that the Wiki COULD be used for this purpose, but I know for me at least, when I think of the Wiki I think of a place I can go to find an answer to a question. I view it as something of a FAQ that anyone can contribute to (which I suppose is almost the actual definition of Wiki!). But if I found myself wondering whether an item on my own wish list was an idea shared by others and might be actually in development by someone, I wouldn't think of the Wiki as the place to go for an answer. Maybe its just a matter of me not looking at it properly though :) One could argue that the mailing list(s) serve this purpose, but I think its too easy to miss things on the list. I hope you're not missing my main point ... the process by which collaboration occurs is irrelevant if only words and not code is shared. That's why wish lists (in any form) are pretty useless unless they are backed up with action. Mailing lists have served the Struts developers just fine in the almost five years that Struts has been in existence. That doesn't mean other technologies might not have been helpful, or worked better. It just means that Struts is what it is because people acted by creating something, rather than only talking about creating something (or, only talking about something they wish someone *else* would create for them :-). Craig PS: The more formal way to request an enhancement, of course, is to use the issue tracking system: http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Uploading: And a Wish List for Struts v1.3 and v2.0 Jericho
Craig McClanahan wrote: Talk to the Google folks, since I use Gmail :-). They seem to be getting into fights with a lot of people these days. Doesn't seem that do no evil and we're publicly traded now mix very well for very long :) I hope you're not missing my main point ... the process by which collaboration occurs is irrelevant if only words and not code is shared. That's why wish lists (in any form) are pretty useless unless they are backed up with action. I didn't miss that point at all, and I couldn't agree more :) But conversely, I hope your not missing my main point... Virtually everyone you talk to has their own wish list for Struts, but for various reasons they never do anything about them (well, aside from state them on the mailing lists of course). I think one of the reasons is not knowing if their ideas will be met with any interest, or if they might spend three weeks working on something only to have someone else beat them to the punch. No one likes to feel like they have wasted effort, and I think a central communication hub might help alleviate this problem. Mailing lists have served the Struts developers just fine in the almost five years that Struts has been in existence. That doesn't mean other technologies might not have been helpful, or worked better. It just means that Struts is what it is because people acted by creating something, rather than only talking about creating something (or, only talking about something they wish someone *else* would create for them :-). Your main point again :) Still valid a pargraph later! About the mailing lists though... I agree they have worked, and continue to, but why not explore some other alternatives that might raise effiency, espcially in light of an expanded community? I think they have worked in the past because the number of possible contributors hasn't been as great as it is now (not to mention the number of users, which has clearly grown over the years). I don't know that my idea would be any better of course, but I thought it was worth proposing at least :) Craig PS: The more formal way to request an enhancement, of course, is to use the issue tracking system: http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla That's true, but like the Wiki I would make the argumnet that it really isn't what its designed for. I mean, the name itself, BUGzilla, says that its an issue tracking system. I know that everyone in the world seems to use it for enhancement requests too, but is it truly appropriate? Even putting that question aside, I am curious (and this is a legitimate question that you may be able to answer)... do people view those submissions as direct requests of the Struts development team? I know anyone can contribute patches, but how do people really view the target of the requests they make there? The point being that if most people think of it as requests to the Struts team, then its not serving the same purpose as what I propose, which is more coordination of the potential development community OUTSIDE the core Struts development team. The question remains though: what do you believe the perception is? That makes all the difference, as perception usually does :) -- Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies http://www.omnytex.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
