Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 09/14/2011 04:14 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote: On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 22:15, Steven Shelton wrote: This is the only comment that I will make on this, and I think it's pretty self-explanatory as to why MS formats need to be supported. I work as an attorney. One of the frequent requirements from judges is that we deliver copies of our proposed orders to them in MS Word format. I am in no position to tell a judge that he is using the "wrong" format and needs to install a plug-in on his county-owned and -maintained computer--which he may not even have the authority, let alone the know-how, to do--so that he can read the files I send him. If LibO stops supporting MS Office files, I will have no choice and will be forced to discontinue using LibO. I suspect the same is true of people who work in a more corporate setting, as opposed to a judicial one. This is also valid in an academic setting. My experience with Open Office while in university: the professors made available Word documents. If your computer could not read it, then use the computer in the library to print it. End of story. DO NOT worry. LibreOffice will not stop using Word formats for loading and saving. LibreOffice wants to be your MSO alternative. If it does not support MSO formats, then it cannot be, thus it should not happen. Actually, every new 3.4.x update reads/writes the newest MSO formats better than the previous one [as far as I can tell and heard from others]. I do not like the idea of people wanting LO to dump its main compatibility feature that is needed if we want LO to gain market share as a replacement to MSO in businesses and governments. MSO file formats are the business standard. LO will support that standard. I would like to see ODF become the standard, now that is the ISO for office file formats. MSO formats will still be used by businesses even if ODF takes over, so at that point LO will still need to support MSO formats. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 22:15, Steven Shelton wrote: > This is the only comment that I will make on this, and I think it's > pretty self-explanatory as to why MS formats need to be supported. > > I work as an attorney. One of the frequent requirements from judges is > that we deliver copies of our proposed orders to them in MS Word format. > > I am in no position to tell a judge that he is using the "wrong" format > and needs to install a plug-in on his county-owned and -maintained > computer--which he may not even have the authority, let alone the > know-how, to do--so that he can read the files I send him. > > If LibO stops supporting MS Office files, I will have no choice and will > be forced to discontinue using LibO. I suspect the same is true of > people who work in a more corporate setting, as opposed to a judicial one. > This is also valid in an academic setting. My experience with Open Office while in university: the professors made available Word documents. If your computer could not read it, then use the computer in the library to print it. End of story. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 9/10/2011 3:28 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote: > I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret format like the Office ones. > > Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. > > Thoughts? This is the only comment that I will make on this, and I think it's pretty self-explanatory as to why MS formats need to be supported. I work as an attorney. One of the frequent requirements from judges is that we deliver copies of our proposed orders to them in MS Word format. I am in no position to tell a judge that he is using the "wrong" format and needs to install a plug-in on his county-owned and -maintained computer--which he may not even have the authority, let alone the know-how, to do--so that he can read the files I send him. If LibO stops supporting MS Office files, I will have no choice and will be forced to discontinue using LibO. I suspect the same is true of people who work in a more corporate setting, as opposed to a judicial one. - -- Steven Shelton -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk5uWjoACgkQXUonIzCvpdOE6ACghvwI3cct2rdDs6aK39ssPv7a AWgAn0Gka8jTabkRgH/bkN+F+M+PVlaI =LKnj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 22:50, e-letter wrote: > On 11/09/2011, Dotan Cohen wrote: >> >> Which MS Office file format is secret? They are all published here: >> http://www.microsoft.com/interop/docs/officebinaryformats.mspx >> > > The original poster chose the wrong word; replace "secret" with "proprietary" > Office Open XML is an ISO standard. It is neither a secret nor proprietary. If you want LO to support it, then support a coder who will code it. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Edwin On Sun, 2011-09-11 at 20:28 -0400, Edwin Powell wrote: > If LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org did not support M$ Office file > formats, nobody would support them. Like it or not, the M$ Office > file formats, both the older ones and the newer XML based ones, are > the defacto industry standards. The greatest marketing point that OOo > and its variants, including LibreOffice, have is reasonably good > compatibility with M$ Office. That's what makes them a viable > alternative for most users. They can download this software for free > that does most everything M$ Office does and does it reasonably well. > It doesn't do it 100 percent perfectly, but it does it reasonably > well and and that's good for most people who choose the free > alternatives. They can get their work done and they can share files > fairly seamlessly with others, most of whom are using M$ Office. I think you hit the nail on the head, MSO is the defacto standard in the corporate world. The issue is whether LO has good enough compatibility for most users. For me the answer is yes it does. As you noted below many have to share files with other users who may not even be aware of someone using LO. > I actually have both M$ Office and LibreOffice on my computer but > most of the time I choose to use LibreOffice because I like the way > the software works. I like the integrated approach as opposed to > separate applications and I like the fact it's not a M$ product. I > share files with M$ Office users on a regular basis and most are > unaware that I'm using something other than M$ Office. That's just > how good it is. But if it didn't support the M$ Office file formats, > I would have no use for it because file sharing is a necessity. > > That's the bottom line as I see it. > > Edwin > -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
If LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org did not support M$ Office file formats, nobody would support them. Like it or not, the M$ Office file formats, both the older ones and the newer XML based ones, are the defacto industry standards. The greatest marketing point that OOo and its variants, including LibreOffice, have is reasonably good compatibility with M$ Office. That's what makes them a viable alternative for most users. They can download this software for free that does most everything M$ Office does and does it reasonably well. It doesn't do it 100 percent perfectly, but it does it reasonably well and and that's good for most people who choose the free alternatives. They can get their work done and they can share files fairly seamlessly with others, most of whom are using M$ Office. I actually have both M$ Office and LibreOffice on my computer but most of the time I choose to use LibreOffice because I like the way the software works. I like the integrated approach as opposed to separate applications and I like the fact it's not a M$ product. I share files with M$ Office users on a regular basis and most are unaware that I'm using something other than M$ Office. That's just how good it is. But if it didn't support the M$ Office file formats, I would have no use for it because file sharing is a necessity. That's the bottom line as I see it. Edwin -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 11/09/2011, Dotan Cohen wrote: > > Which MS Office file format is secret? They are all published here: > http://www.microsoft.com/interop/docs/officebinaryformats.mspx > The original poster chose the wrong word; replace "secret" with "proprietary" -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 11/09/2011, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: > When you have a deliverable in a MSO format, then you must deliver in an > MSO format. This is often not negotiable. > Surely this is accounted for in the costs of you conducting such business (i.e. buying a legal copy of each m$ product). -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
I'm still bemused by the persistence of the "secret Microsoft formats" meme. As a matter of fact, which formats that matter for OpenOffice are believed to be secret? I can't find any that OpenOffice converts that are not public and licensed under the Open Specification Promise as well. That may not be enough assurance for some folks, but it is definitely not because they are "secret." - Dennis PS: The only three formats that I encounter and that would be good to know are (1) Microsoft Money - since it has been abandoned, (2) Windows Live Writer drafts format, and (3) OneNote format. These might not be secret, but I haven't found where they are documented. Somehow, I don't think those are the ones that are meant. -Original Message- From: jorge [mailto:jrodrigue...@cpcecr.com] Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 10:55 To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? Hi I agree with you Regards, Jorge Rodríguez El sáb, 10-09-2011 a las 15:08 -0500, Anthony Papillion escribió: > I agree, but is not supporting saving in secret formats really isolating them > from the rest of the world? > Especially if the other software can read the open format, wouldn't it be > preferable to just tell them 'don't worry about > it, you're compatible' and leave it at that? Besides, I'd think that creating > a plugin that helps Microsoft Offices users read > .odf files is a lot easier than constantly playing catchup with the secret > Microsoft formats. > > Anthony > > ---------------- > > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft > > secret formats? > > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > > From: twoho...@gmail.com > > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 19:45:02 + > > > > Makes sense but u need to be able to reach others. I think the edge is in > > supporting a broader range of options not just the vendors. Those moving to > > opensource solutions need an air of security that they are not isolated > > from the rest of the world > > > > - > > from twohot@device.mobile :) > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Anthony Papillion > > Sender: > > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 14:28:27 > > To: LibreOffice Mailing List > > Reply-To: users@global.libreoffice.org > > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft > > secret formats? > > > > > > I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming > > to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a > > bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is > > to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's > > actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering > > about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret > > format like the Office ones. > > > > Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document > > format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed > > it? IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the > > problem. They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a > > different way. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Cheers, > > Anthony > > > > -- > > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > > deleted > > > > > > -- > > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > > deleted > > > -- Atentamente, Jorge Rodríguez -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wik
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 9/11/2011 9:54 AM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: On 2011-09-11, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 09/10/2011 04:08 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote: Microsoft changes formats as a market strategy. As explained by Carl Shapiro and Hal Varian (1998) Information rules: a strategic guide to the network economy (Harvard U. Pr.). A second subtitle for this book is, "How to wage and win a standards war." Microsoft has won for now. The Document Foundation needs to continue trying to make LibreOffice as easy as possible for people to support. Gradually, more people are coming to understand the value of Free Open-Source Software (FOSS). MSFT peaked at just under $60 per share on Dec. 31, 1999, and has been between 15 and 40 for the past decade. Companies like Google now pay people full time to support FOSS, and I expect that some governments will soon also pay people to support FOSS if they don't already. The future belongs to LibreOffice, MySQL, Linux, R, etc.: We just need to continue to deal with the world as it is, and the trend to FOSS will continue. Best Wishes, Spencer -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Hi I agree with you Regards, Jorge Rodríguez El sáb, 10-09-2011 a las 15:08 -0500, Anthony Papillion escribió: > I agree, but is not supporting saving in secret formats really isolating them > from the rest of the world? > Especially if the other software can read the open format, wouldn't it be > preferable to just tell them 'don't worry about > it, you're compatible' and leave it at that? Besides, I'd think that creating > a plugin that helps Microsoft Offices users read > .odf files is a lot easier than constantly playing catchup with the secret > Microsoft formats. > > Anthony > > ------------ > > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft > > secret formats? > > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > > From: twoho...@gmail.com > > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 19:45:02 + > > > > Makes sense but u need to be able to reach others. I think the edge is in > > supporting a broader range of options not just the vendors. Those moving to > > opensource solutions need an air of security that they are not isolated > > from the rest of the world > > > > - > > from twohot@device.mobile :) > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Anthony Papillion > > Sender: > > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 14:28:27 > > To: LibreOffice Mailing List > > Reply-To: users@global.libreoffice.org > > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft > > secret formats? > > > > > > I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming > > to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a > > bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is > > to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's > > actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering > > about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret > > format like the Office ones. > > > > Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document > > format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed > > it? IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the > > problem. They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a > > different way. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Cheers, > > Anthony > > > > -- > > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > > deleted > > > > > > -- > > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > > deleted > > > -- Atentamente, Jorge Rodríguez -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 2011-09-11, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: > On 09/10/2011 04:08 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote: >> I agree, but is not supporting saving in secret formats really >> isolating them from the rest of the world? Especially if the other >> software can read the open format, wouldn't it be preferable to just >> tell them 'don't worry about it, you're compatible' and leave it at >> that? Besides, I'd think that creating a plugin that helps Microsoft >> Offices users read .odf files is a lot easier than constantly playing >> catchup with the secret Microsoft formats. > > When you have a deliverable in a MSO format, then you must deliver in > an MSO format. This is often not negotiable. > > If I spend you a document and then tell you "yeah, now here is a list > of steps to download and install a plug-in that I sure hope works on > your version of MSO and operating system", well, you just the > non-technical people. That's more or less what happens (if the recipient is lucky) when someone sends an OOXML file to an MS Office 2000 user. > The only company that I have seen successfully do this is Photo > Shop. I understand that if you have photo shop deliverables, then you > really need to use exactly the same version as that used by the > client. Pretty much everyone else that does this seems to have > problems in the market. I guess in the PSP case, their file format is not supposed to be used for deliverables and information interchange. But the issue with Microsoft, and that's why Tony is right when he says creating a plugin is easier, is that Microsoft changes formats as a market strategy. What changed is that in the recent years some governments finally understood you can't rely on closed formats, and as "open standard" became a buzzword, Microsoft built their own standard. This probably doesn't prevent Microsoft from designing a new, incompatible version of the standard for the next release of their office suite. Hence the catching up problem. -- Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg) gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 22:28, Anthony Papillion wrote: > > I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming > to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a > bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is > to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's > actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering > about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret > format like the Office ones. > > Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document > format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? > IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. > They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Anthony > Which MS Office file format is secret? They are all published here: http://www.microsoft.com/interop/docs/officebinaryformats.mspx LibreOffice does not support them because there are not enough LO contributors, not because the formats are secret. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 09/10/2011 04:08 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote: I agree, but is not supporting saving in secret formats really isolating them from the rest of the world? Especially if the other software can read the open format, wouldn't it be preferable to just tell them 'don't worry about it, you're compatible' and leave it at that? Besides, I'd think that creating a plugin that helps Microsoft Offices users read .odf files is a lot easier than constantly playing catchup with the secret Microsoft formats. When you have a deliverable in a MSO format, then you must deliver in an MSO format. This is often not negotiable. If I spend you a document and then tell you "yeah, now here is a list of steps to download and install a plug-in that I sure hope works on your version of MSO and operating system", well, you just the non-technical people. I know people that still use Word Perfect, so then we would need an ODF reader for them as well. Even well established products have issues when they do not support legacy formats. As an example, look at Apple when they released their latest video editing software and did not support previous file formats. MSO even had issues when there was no support for the DOCX format between other versions. The only company that I have seen successfully do this is Photo Shop. I understand that if you have photo shop deliverables, then you really need to use exactly the same version as that used by the client. Pretty much everyone else that does this seems to have problems in the market. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
yes;in an ideal world.but then in an ideal world proprietary software would not have existed On 11 September 2011 01:38, Anthony Papillion wrote: > > I agree, but is not supporting saving in secret formats really isolating > them from the rest of the world? Especially if the other software can read > the open format, wouldn't it be preferable to just tell them 'don't worry > about it, you're compatible' and leave it at that? Besides, I'd think that > creating a plugin that helps Microsoft Offices users read .odf files is a > lot easier than constantly playing catchup with the secret Microsoft > formats. > > Anthony > > ------------ > > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support > Microsoft secret formats? > > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > > From: twoho...@gmail.com > > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 19:45:02 + > > > > Makes sense but u need to be able to reach others. I think the edge is in > supporting a broader range of options not just the vendors. Those moving to > opensource solutions need an air of security that they are not isolated from > the rest of the world > > > > - > > from twohot@device.mobile :) > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Anthony Papillion > > Sender: > > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 14:28:27 > > To: LibreOffice Mailing List > > Reply-To: users@global.libreoffice.org > > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft > secret formats? > > > > > > I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are > coming to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages > quite a bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is > set up is to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to > .odf. It's actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been > wondering about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a > secret format like the Office ones. > > > > Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document > format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? > IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. > They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Cheers, > > Anthony > > > > -- > > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: > users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > > > > > -- > > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: > users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > -- Dr soumalya ray <http://drsoumalya.blogspot.com> MBBS,MD(PGT-C.Medicine),Ex-HousePhysician(Medicine) Skype: som3776 | Twitter: @docbkp <http://twitter.com/docbkp> -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
I agree, but is not supporting saving in secret formats really isolating them from the rest of the world? Especially if the other software can read the open format, wouldn't it be preferable to just tell them 'don't worry about it, you're compatible' and leave it at that? Besides, I'd think that creating a plugin that helps Microsoft Offices users read .odf files is a lot easier than constantly playing catchup with the secret Microsoft formats. Anthony ------------ > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft > secret formats? > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > From: twoho...@gmail.com > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 19:45:02 + > > Makes sense but u need to be able to reach others. I think the edge is in > supporting a broader range of options not just the vendors. Those moving to > opensource solutions need an air of security that they are not isolated from > the rest of the world > > - > from twohot@device.mobile :) > > -Original Message- > From: Anthony Papillion > Sender: > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 14:28:27 > To: LibreOffice Mailing List > Reply-To: users@global.libreoffice.org > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret > formats? > > > I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming > to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a > bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is > to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's > actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering > about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret > format like the Office ones. > > Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document > format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? > IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. > They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Anthony > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 22:28, Anthony Papillion wrote: > > I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming > to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a > bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is > to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's > actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering > about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret > format like the Office ones. > > Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document > format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? > IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. > They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. > > Thoughts? > Which MS Office file format is secret? They are all published here: http://www.microsoft.com/interop/docs/officebinaryformats.mspx LibreOffice does not support them because there are not enough LO contributors, not because the formats are secret. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
See the following proposal: http://www.mail-archive.com/website@global.libreoffice.org/msg05999.html -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 09/10/2011 03:28 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote: I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret format like the Office ones. Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. Thoughts? I know very few people that are able to function without the ability to read or produce a DOC type file. Consider how it would affect you if you could no longer read/write text files, CSV files, PDF files, any graphic image other than say PNG. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
This question was studied in considerable detail by Carl Shapiro and Hal Varian (1998) Information rules: a strategic guide to the network economy (Harvard U. Pr.). In brief, Shapiro and Varian say that organizations with a small market share need to make the effort to make it as easy as possible for others to use their product. Organizations with a dominant market share may make more money being arrogant, making it as difficult as possible for their customers to try a competitor's product. Spencer On 9/10/2011 1:51 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote: Hi Dennis, While I haven't looked at the list, I'd have to guess that the entirety of the MSO file formats probably isn't documented since we don't have 100% MSO compatibility in any open source office suite. Microsoft has done a good job of opening up a lot of their specifications, but there is still more work to be done. Anthony From: dennis.hamil...@acm.org To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 13:14:57 -0700 Which formats to you consider to still be secret? Microsoft has provided free-to-the-public, downloadable specifications for a great number of formats and protocols. Have you checked the lists of those? [I am not objecting to the plug-in strategy either way, just wondering whether secrecy of formats applies these days.] - Dennis -Original Message- From: anth...@cryptofreaks.tk [mailto:anth...@cryptofreaks.tk] On Behalf Of Anthony Papillion Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 12:28 To: LibreOffice Mailing List Subject: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret format like the Office ones. Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. Thoughts? Cheers, Anthony -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
To be honest, MSO is not going to go away. So the question would be if you want LO to be able to be used in the modern office environment? I remember when OOo did not read .doc files. No one wanted to use it [among my group of people] if it could not read/write MSO files. When OOo was able to read MSO files, then people were willing to try it. So now with the modern office, the ability to read/write any files your people are using with MSO with your open source office package gives that package an edge. I use LO by default, since MSO does not work on Ubuntu. Also, the newest version of MSO I have used/owned was 2003. The next thing is that I never really thought that MSO's "x" formats were something they really needed. I tell people not to use those formats that came out with MSO 2007. Now that LO reads and writes most of the MSO file formats, people can use it instead of MSO in their offices and still will be able to deal with these type of files from their workers and the people who send them these office files. IF LO, OOo, or any other FOSS office package, did not read/write MSO formats, then people would never want to use it in the office or at home if they ever would need to read/write these formats. SO FOSS office packages must read/write MSO files. Without it, the market for LO [and OOo] would go down to almost ZERO. On 09/10/2011 04:51 PM, Anthony Papillion wrote: Hi Dennis, While I haven't looked at the list, I'd have to guess that the entirety of the MSO file formats probably isn't documented since we don't have 100% MSO compatibility in any open source office suite. Microsoft has done a good job of opening up a lot of their specifications, but there is still more work to be done. Anthony From: dennis.hamil...@acm.org To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 13:14:57 -0700 Which formats to you consider to still be secret? Microsoft has provided free-to-the-public, downloadable specifications for a great number of formats and protocols. Have you checked the lists of those? [I am not objecting to the plug-in strategy either way, just wondering whether secrecy of formats applies these days.] - Dennis -Original Message- From: anth...@cryptofreaks.tk [mailto:anth...@cryptofreaks.tk] On Behalf Of Anthony Papillion Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 12:28 To: LibreOffice Mailing List Subject: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret format like the Office ones. Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. Thoughts? Cheers, Anthony -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Hi Dennis, While I haven't looked at the list, I'd have to guess that the entirety of the MSO file formats probably isn't documented since we don't have 100% MSO compatibility in any open source office suite. Microsoft has done a good job of opening up a lot of their specifications, but there is still more work to be done. Anthony > From: dennis.hamil...@acm.org > To: users@global.libreoffice.org > Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft > secret formats? > Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 13:14:57 -0700 > > > Which formats to you consider to still be secret? Microsoft has provided > free-to-the-public, downloadable specifications for a great number of formats > and protocols. > > Have you checked the lists of those? > > [I am not objecting to the plug-in strategy either way, just wondering > whether secrecy of formats applies these days.] > > - Dennis > > -Original Message- > From: anth...@cryptofreaks.tk [mailto:anth...@cryptofreaks.tk] On Behalf Of > Anthony Papillion > Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 12:28 > To: LibreOffice Mailing List > Subject: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret > formats? > > > I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming > to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a > bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is > to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's > actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering > about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret > format like the Office ones. > > Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document > format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? > IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. > They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. > > Thoughts? > > Cheers, > Anthony > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted > > > -- > For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Which formats to you consider to still be secret? Microsoft has provided free-to-the-public, downloadable specifications for a great number of formats and protocols. Have you checked the lists of those? [I am not objecting to the plug-in strategy either way, just wondering whether secrecy of formats applies these days.] - Dennis -Original Message- From: anth...@cryptofreaks.tk [mailto:anth...@cryptofreaks.tk] On Behalf Of Anthony Papillion Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 12:28 To: LibreOffice Mailing List Subject: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret format like the Office ones. Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. Thoughts? Cheers, Anthony -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
On 10/09/2011 20:28, Anthony Papillion wrote: I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret format like the Office ones. Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. Thoughts? Cheers, Anthony There was an ENORMOUS discussion about this on the tdf-discuss list on 20 July this year. You can see the thread here: http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@documentfoundation.org/msg07427.html -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats?
Makes sense but u need to be able to reach others. I think the edge is in supporting a broader range of options not just the vendors. Those moving to opensource solutions need an air of security that they are not isolated from the rest of the world - from twohot@device.mobile :) -Original Message- From: Anthony Papillion Sender: Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 14:28:27 To: LibreOffice Mailing List Reply-To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: [libreoffice-users] Should LibreOffice even support Microsoft secret formats? I've been thinking a lot about this lately as many of my clients are coming to LibreOffice from Microsoft Office and I deal with both packages quite a bit. Many times, one of the first things I do once LibreOffice is set up is to show clients how to save in Microsoft format as opposed to .odf. It's actually one of the first questions they ask. Lately, I've been wondering about the wisdom of an open source package actively supporting a secret format like the Office ones. Would it not be preferable to support *only* saving in the open document format and then providing a plugin for Microsoft Office users who needed it? IMHO, allowing users to save in secret formats just continues the problem. They're still using proprietary software, just packaged a different way. Thoughts? Cheers, Anthony -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
