Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hallo Regina , I agree, the current grid could be replaced by a "editable grid" who can been adapted to the multiple columns boundaries and to place also "horizontal" boundaries. Very good idea ! Ideal for our workflow New systems and idea's has advantages, but please let us, users, choose the system who fit best to our workflows. This is not very hard to do, 3 buttons in the appearance, - no boundarys >> now use the editabel grid - the new look ( corner boundarys) -the old boundarys Thanks for the interrest Frernand Hi Fernand, hi all, Fernand Vanrie schrieb: [..] When using a multiple column layout, in 95% of the cases the pictures are anchored to the page, because the editor want to fix the images on a specific place in his layout, and most pictures are wider than 1 column, see most of "magazines" layout. We produce 8.000 magazine pages a year, using OO-LO, and yes we positioning the pictures using Macro's etc, but in the end the user want to move the images and then we surly need the colomn bouderies as a guide If I understand it right, the boundaries are only needed to align pictures with the mouse. If that is true, I think, a better solution would be not bringing back the border lines, but add a snapping feature. So that you can not only snap to grid (who uses that and to what purpose?) but snap to layout relevant positions, for example to paragraph border, indent position, page border, explicit tabs. What do you think? Kind regards Regina -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hi Thorsten, Le 17/02/2012 10:24, Thorsten Behrens a écrit : Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: The place where to bring questions to the devs has to be a visible and accessible place. [...] I guess there's some work to be done to resolve those two points. not necessarily - what would be equally workable is a group of change agents (Regina, Cor, NoOp, you in this case, but also UX people like Christoph), who have their eyes& ears here and at the forums and convey to ux-advise or the dev list. Good point and certainly a workable intermediate option. Unfortunately, reading some of the msgs on UX lead me to think the devs aren't ready for that. Also, what would greatly reduce the cost& friction that changes will cause in the future, is early feedback. Granted. We invested quite some resources into providing nightly builds here: http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ (and my, and other hackers' personal time and money to keep those hosts running), so any suggestion to have people actually download& play with those builds greatly appreciated. I, for one, have no time enough to play with all the toys that come up in the Libre software world. I happen to download and test LibO builds, but that's not on a regular basis and much of what I learn is from others' mouths. Cedric blogged his feature here: http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr/wordpress/?p=818 (that's also aggregated on planet.documentfoundation.org), Yes, but that blog article (like most of the msgs that were posted on the lists) was aimed at headers and footers, not text boundaries that I feel are considered as some kind of a "sub-product" from the latter. I did participate on the FR discussion list to the header/footer talks but, at that time, left completely apart the text boundaries. I should have been more vocal about that, certainly, but I stood on topic... :( but possibly we could do better spreading the word - would someone (you?) be interested in compiling a weekly or monthly newsletter for LibreOffice? More simply: give more visibility to the UX list. I share your thoughts that given it's aim, many won't subscribe. But those interested will know of its existence. Thanks for jumping in indeed - well, you *did* it yourself. Let's see where that (constructive) discussion gets us to. Thanks for your time, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hi Regina, I hope you didn't take my previous words as a personal attack, which they weren't. Le 17/02/2012 12:59, Regina Henschel a écrit : If I understand it right, the boundaries are only needed to align pictures with the mouse. If that is true, I think, a better solution would be not bringing back the border lines, but add a snapping feature. So that you can not only snap to grid (who uses that and to what purpose?) but snap to layout relevant positions, for example to paragraph border, indent position, page border, explicit tabs. What do you think? The boundaries are another visual clue to what's on the page. I see them as useful as the unprintable characters are: a necessity when laying a page out. I fail to see any use to the "angles" (don't know the actual name for these things) as they are currently implemented. If others can do with them, it's ok with me, no problem, as much as there are actually people working with hidden unprintable chars. The best of both worlds would be to display the (good ol') text boundaries according to the unprintable chars switch. My two cents. Well, I hope for some more :) -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hi Fernand, hi all, Fernand Vanrie schrieb: [..] When using a multiple column layout, in 95% of the cases the pictures are anchored to the page, because the editor want to fix the images on a specific place in his layout, and most pictures are wider than 1 column, see most of "magazines" layout. We produce 8.000 magazine pages a year, using OO-LO, and yes we positioning the pictures using Macro's etc, but in the end the user want to move the images and then we surly need the colomn bouderies as a guide If I understand it right, the boundaries are only needed to align pictures with the mouse. If that is true, I think, a better solution would be not bringing back the border lines, but add a snapping feature. So that you can not only snap to grid (who uses that and to what purpose?) but snap to layout relevant positions, for example to paragraph border, indent position, page border, explicit tabs. What do you think? Kind regards Regina -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hallo Thorsten , A agree, i also looked over the possible problems with no margins for a page, but there was no communication over the column margins. Like i sayed before there are workarounds for the page margins, but working with columns and pictures covering more than 1 column becomes very problematic (imposible) Greetz Fernand Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: The place where to bring questions to the devs has to be a visible and accessible place. [...] I guess there's some work to be done to resolve those two points. Hi Jean-Francois, not necessarily - what would be equally workable is a group of change agents (Regina, Cor, NoOp, you in this case, but also UX people like Christoph), who have their eyes& ears here and at the forums and convey to ux-advise or the dev list. Also, what would greatly reduce the cost& friction that changes will cause in the future, is early feedback. We invested quite some resources into providing nightly builds here: http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ (and my, and other hackers' personal time and money to keep those hosts running), so any suggestion to have people actually download& play with those builds greatly appreciated. Cedric blogged his feature here: http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr/wordpress/?p=818 (that's also aggregated on planet.documentfoundation.org), but possibly we could do better spreading the word - would someone (you?) be interested in compiling a weekly or monthly newsletter for LibreOffice? BTW, what if many people jump in the ux list and post thousands of messages? ;) Well, ux-advise has a rather narrow topic, that should naturally reduce the breadth of the discussion - otherwise, more participation is a problem I would love to have there. ;) Well, I could do it, yes. In fact, as you might have seen, I did for the first time a few hours ago. I can say that the latest answer my message received is not that encouraging (in short: do it yourself. Doh). Thanks for jumping in indeed - well, you *did* it yourself. Let's see where that (constructive) discussion gets us to. Cheers, -- Thorsten -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: > The place where to bring questions to the devs has to be a visible > and accessible place. > > [...] > > I guess there's some work to be done to resolve those two points. > Hi Jean-Francois, not necessarily - what would be equally workable is a group of change agents (Regina, Cor, NoOp, you in this case, but also UX people like Christoph), who have their eyes & ears here and at the forums and convey to ux-advise or the dev list. Also, what would greatly reduce the cost & friction that changes will cause in the future, is early feedback. We invested quite some resources into providing nightly builds here: http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ (and my, and other hackers' personal time and money to keep those hosts running), so any suggestion to have people actually download & play with those builds greatly appreciated. Cedric blogged his feature here: http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr/wordpress/?p=818 (that's also aggregated on planet.documentfoundation.org), but possibly we could do better spreading the word - would someone (you?) be interested in compiling a weekly or monthly newsletter for LibreOffice? > BTW, what if many people jump in the ux list and post thousands of > messages? ;) > Well, ux-advise has a rather narrow topic, that should naturally reduce the breadth of the discussion - otherwise, more participation is a problem I would love to have there. ;) > Well, I could do it, yes. In fact, as you might have seen, I did for > the first time a few hours ago. I can say that the latest answer my > message received is not that encouraging (in short: do it yourself. > Doh). > Thanks for jumping in indeed - well, you *did* it yourself. Let's see where that (constructive) discussion gets us to. Cheers, -- Thorsten -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hi Thorsten, thanks for your answer. Le 16/02/2012 10:26, Thorsten Behrens a écrit : well, but it's true - *someone* would need to carry the discussion to the relevant list, see below. I would be very surprised if this is different in any other free software project of this size. Sure. If you want the devs to actually work on code, instead of reading emails all day (mind that, typically, the core developer list has some 1000+ postings alone per month), it has to be like this. I can understand that. Someone would need to mine for the bits of developer-relevant information among sometimes rather general discussions, distill it down to actionable content, and bring it to the right place - ux-advise for the question at hand. The place where to bring questions to the devs has to be a visible and accessible place. Visible: the us list is completely hidden (at least it was to me until Cedric brought it to my attention). From what I can see, it is also hidden to most of the public lists members. Accessible: I know of plenty who don't speak or read English. Thus, even if they'd know about ux, they couldn't express themselves. I guess there's some work to be done to resolve those two points. BTW, what if many people jump in the ux list and post thousands of messages? ;) If you're really passionate about this topic, it could be you - Well, I could do it, yes. In fact, as you might have seen, I did for the first time a few hours ago. I can say that the latest answer my message received is not that encouraging (in short: do it yourself. Doh). isn't it always better to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem? ;) :) Thanks for your answer. All the best, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hi Tom, Le 16/02/2012 10:49, Tom Davies a écrit : Regina gives good advice even if it's not always what you want to hear. In general i find that acting on Regina's advice gets the job done. I don't question Regina's answers which I always appreciate. I question *this specific* answer I quoted before. Almost everyone else gets side-tracked from time-to-time. Some more than others. Regina has been criticised quite a lot in the last few days and i think quite unfairly. She is not paid to give advice and help people. I don't think anyone here is. This is completely irrelevant to the topic and doesn't apply to me. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hi :) +1 Regina gives good advice even if it's not always what you want to hear. In general i find that acting on Regina's advice gets the job done. Almost everyone else gets side-tracked from time-to-time. Some more than others. Regina has been criticised quite a lot in the last few days and i think quite unfairly. She is not paid to give advice and help people. I don't think anyone here is. Regards from Tom :) --- On Thu, 16/2/12, Thorsten Behrens wrote: From: Thorsten Behrens Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer To: "Jean-Francois Nifenecker" Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Thursday, 16 February, 2012, 9:26 Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: > What bothers me the more on the users lists (FR is the same for that > matter) is the recurring motto Regina sang: "discussing here will > not make it appear." > Hi Jean-Francois, well, but it's true - *someone* would need to carry the discussion to the relevant list, see below. I would be very surprised if this is different in any other free software project of this size. > To tell the truth, this is a shoking answer. Users may not wish to > register to some "strange" or hidden list for a one-shot message, > non-english speaking users might feel they are set aside. As the > users lists are frequently visited by members of TDF, it would seem > important these knowledgeable people report to the devs, if the devs > themselves don't lurk round here (which is a shame > development-wise). > If you want the devs to actually work on code, instead of reading emails all day (mind that, typically, the core developer list has some 1000+ postings alone per month), it has to be like this. Someone would need to mine for the bits of developer-relevant information among sometimes rather general discussions, distill it down to actionable content, and bring it to the right place - ux-advise for the question at hand. If you're really passionate about this topic, it could be you - isn't it always better to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem? ;) Cheers, -- Thorsten -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: > What bothers me the more on the users lists (FR is the same for that > matter) is the recurring motto Regina sang: "discussing here will > not make it appear." > Hi Jean-Francois, well, but it's true - *someone* would need to carry the discussion to the relevant list, see below. I would be very surprised if this is different in any other free software project of this size. > To tell the truth, this is a shoking answer. Users may not wish to > register to some "strange" or hidden list for a one-shot message, > non-english speaking users might feel they are set aside. As the > users lists are frequently visited by members of TDF, it would seem > important these knowledgeable people report to the devs, if the devs > themselves don't lurk round here (which is a shame > development-wise). > If you want the devs to actually work on code, instead of reading emails all day (mind that, typically, the core developer list has some 1000+ postings alone per month), it has to be like this. Someone would need to mine for the bits of developer-relevant information among sometimes rather general discussions, distill it down to actionable content, and bring it to the right place - ux-advise for the question at hand. If you're really passionate about this topic, it could be you - isn't it always better to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem? ;) Cheers, -- Thorsten -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Dan , Thanks for the tip , page boundary's are a minnor problem , having no COLUMN boundaries can not been worked around On Wed, 2012-02-15 at 14:37 +0100, Fernand Vanrie wrote: Regina , You cut a few corners here, see my remarks inside Hi Fernand, Fernand Vanrie schrieb: Regina , True for "page" layouts, but simple try a multiple column layout and try to position a picture (anchored to the page) The column boundaries are also gone. If you anchor a picture to page, then the reference is the page not a column. Anchoring to a page means, that the picture hovers over the continuous text and stays on that specific page regardless how the continuous text is changed When using a multiple column layout, in 95% of the cases the pictures are anchored to the page, because the editor want to fix the images on a specific place in his layout, and most pictures are wider than 1 column, see most of "magazines" layout. We produce 8.000 magazine pages a year, using OO-LO, and yes we positioning the pictures using Macro's etc, but in the end the user want to move the images and then we surly need the colomn bouderies as a guide . In such a situation an alignment to columns seems questionable to me. If you want your picture inside a column use anchoring to paragraph. Besides that, you know the column width and can set width and position of the picture accordingly. When using a 4 column layout, its problematic to have al this postions in mind 9 mm, 43 mm , 95 mm, ect I know that people like using the mouse, but using the dialog is much more precise and flexible. here i can 100% agree, but we are talking about 5% of the users who understand the allignment techniques, the rest use the mouse , eye and boundarie lines :-) Kind regards Regina Another suggestion: Use F11 to open the Styles& Formating dialog. Click the Page styles icon. The right click the Default page style. Using the Border tab, Set All Four Borders. Then select the width and color of the border. Click OK. This could also be done with a page style you want to use. Granted when printing, it does require opening the page style and selecting Set No Borders in this tab. --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
On Wed, 2012-02-15 at 14:37 +0100, Fernand Vanrie wrote: > Regina , > > You cut a few corners here, see my remarks inside > > > > Hi Fernand, > > > > Fernand Vanrie schrieb: > >> Regina , > >> > >> True for "page" layouts, but simple try a multiple column layout and try > >> to position a picture (anchored to the page) > >> The column boundaries are also gone. > > > > If you anchor a picture to page, then the reference is the page not a > > column. Anchoring to a page means, that the picture hovers over the > > continuous text and stays on that specific page regardless how the > > continuous text is changed > > When using a multiple column layout, in 95% of the cases the pictures > are anchored to the page, because the editor want to fix the images on a > specific place in his layout, and most pictures are wider than 1 column, > see most of "magazines" layout. > We produce 8.000 magazine pages a year, using OO-LO, and yes we > positioning the pictures using Macro's etc, but in the end the user want > to move the images and then we surly need the colomn bouderies as a > guide > > . In such a situation an alignment to columns seems questionable to > > me. If you want your picture inside a column use anchoring to paragraph. > > > > Besides that, you know the column width and can set width and position > > of the picture accordingly. > When using a 4 column layout, its problematic to have al this postions > in mind 9 mm, 43 mm , 95 mm, ect > > I know that people like using the mouse, but using the dialog is much > > more precise and flexible. > here i can 100% agree, but we are talking about 5% of the users who > understand the allignment techniques, the rest use the mouse , eye and > boundarie lines :-) > > > > Kind regards > > Regina Another suggestion: Use F11 to open the Styles & Formating dialog. Click the Page styles icon. The right click the Default page style. Using the Border tab, Set All Four Borders. Then select the width and color of the border. Click OK. This could also be done with a page style you want to use. Granted when printing, it does require opening the page style and selecting Set No Borders in this tab. --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Regina , You cut a few corners here, see my remarks inside Hi Fernand, Fernand Vanrie schrieb: Regina , True for "page" layouts, but simple try a multiple column layout and try to position a picture (anchored to the page) The column boundaries are also gone. If you anchor a picture to page, then the reference is the page not a column. Anchoring to a page means, that the picture hovers over the continuous text and stays on that specific page regardless how the continuous text is changed When using a multiple column layout, in 95% of the cases the pictures are anchored to the page, because the editor want to fix the images on a specific place in his layout, and most pictures are wider than 1 column, see most of "magazines" layout. We produce 8.000 magazine pages a year, using OO-LO, and yes we positioning the pictures using Macro's etc, but in the end the user want to move the images and then we surly need the colomn bouderies as a guide . In such a situation an alignment to columns seems questionable to me. If you want your picture inside a column use anchoring to paragraph. Besides that, you know the column width and can set width and position of the picture accordingly. When using a 4 column layout, its problematic to have al this postions in mind 9 mm, 43 mm , 95 mm, ect I know that people like using the mouse, but using the dialog is much more precise and flexible. here i can 100% agree, but we are talking about 5% of the users who understand the allignment techniques, the rest use the mouse , eye and boundarie lines :-) Kind regards Regina -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hi Fernand, Fernand Vanrie schrieb: Regina , True for "page" layouts, but simple try a multiple column layout and try to position a picture (anchored to the page) The column boundaries are also gone. If you anchor a picture to page, then the reference is the page not a column. Anchoring to a page means, that the picture hovers over the continuous text and stays on that specific page regardless how the continuous text is changed. In such a situation an alignment to columns seems questionable to me. If you want your picture inside a column use anchoring to paragraph. Besides that, you know the column width and can set width and position of the picture accordingly. I know that people like using the mouse, but using the dialog is much more precise and flexible. Kind regards Regina -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Regina , True for "page" layouts, but simple try a multiple column layout and try to position a picture (anchored to the page) The column boundaries are also gone. Greetz Fernand Hi noibs, noibs schrieb: [..] I'm a college professor who writes his own teaching materials. Each course features roughly a 400-page Writer document that contains a variety of inline graphical objects created in Draw or Calc and then pasted in as a GDI Metafile. Usually, I need to resize those images and having visible margins REALLY helps that process. Perhaps you only need a different workflow? Do you want to align the graphic with the left egde of the text area? Rightclick the graphic (or the surrounding frame in case of graphic with caption) and align left. Or do you not use the mouse at all? Then you need only the position&size dialog. You need not to see the page border, but LO will find it for you. I first thought too, I would need that border. But then I find no situation, where it is really needed. So please describe a goal, where you need the border line. Kind regards Regina -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hi :) No worries. We often argue and disagree with each other. It's amazing the things that people get passionate about! At least this one is relevant and on-topic! It's worth posting a feature-request. As you point out it surely isn't too tough although it's a bit of a mystery why it isn't already being given as one. Just post a bug-report and use the drop-downs to make it a feature-request. This guide might help http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport In the mean-time it's well worth trying Regina's advice. Good luck and regards from Tom :) --- On Tue, 14/2/12, noibs wrote: From: noibs Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Tuesday, 14 February, 2012, 23:25 One more workaround that seems to have the least drawbacks for me is to apply a very light shade of gray or some color to the background of the page. It will include the main page, header and footer. Then, if you haven't already done it, set your printing preferences in Writer to not print backgrounds. Create a template for new documents and you are all set. I've been trying to envision working with multiple columns and multiple graphics images with text wrap--basic page payout. Yes, without the margin guides you can get the job done, but I don't think it can be done as quickly and as effortlessly. Like I said above, this seems to be the way of the world right now and I think most of it has been driven by Apple's change to the Mac OS Lion user interface to make it more like iOS (and dumber as a result). Because of Apple's mandatory autosave and versions in iWork Pages, I've now returned 100% to LibreOffice because it was driving me crazy and couldn't be turned off. I think the Ubuntu Unity interface was created for much the same reasons--prettier and dumber. I'm the first to agree that LO Writer documents look way nicer without the layout guides. Because of that, it may attract more novice users. Why knows. But a requirement and an option are two completely different things. Given that the code for the layout guides already exists, I seriously question the wisdom of those who decided to make the change mandatory and not an option. What they are essentially saying is that they know what's best for me. Take it or leave it. When I find a better option, I'll leave it. I'm know I'm probably violating whatever the rules of this forum are in terms of editorializing, so this will be it. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LO-3-5-Can-t-see-page-margins-in-Writer-tp3744148p3745437.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Le 15/02/2012 00:25, noibs a écrit : One more workaround that seems to have the least drawbacks for me is to apply a very light shade of gray or some color to the background of the page. It will include the main page, header and footer. Then, if you haven't already done it, set your printing preferences in Writer to not print backgrounds. Create a template for new documents and you are all set. Yes, but it is just that: a workaround to fix an interface defect. BTW, I've started a new thread in the UX list (libreoffice-ux-adv...@lists.freedesktop.org): "The "no border text" feature in Writer 3.5 is not complete" where I ask for the return of a previously existing option: display or hide the text limits. What they are essentially saying is that they know what's best for me. Take it or leave it. When I find a better option, I'll leave it. I understand your thoughts. I'm know I'm probably violating whatever the rules of this forum are in terms of editorializing, so this will be it. Telling things is better that shutting up. What bothers me the more on the users lists (FR is the same for that matter) is the recurring motto Regina sang: "discussing here will not make it appear." To tell the truth, this is a shoking answer. Users may not wish to register to some "strange" or hidden list for a one-shot message, non-english speaking users might feel they are set aside. As the users lists are frequently visited by members of TDF, it would seem important these knowledgeable people report to the devs, if the devs themselves don't lurk round here (which is a shame development-wise). Best regards, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Le 14/02/2012 21:59, noibs a écrit : Please explain why this change is better? How does it make users more efficient? I now have to hover to see the header/footer line. How is that faster than it was before? How many word processors that offer decent layout capabilities DON'T offer an option to actually see the page layout? Really. How many? Paste a picture into a Writer document. Be in the middle of the page where you can't see the upper and lower corner markers for the page. Drag the picture left and right. How can you tell when the picture is in the margin? You can't Do the same thing vertically. How can you tell when the picture is in the header or footer. You can't. For some operations you need to see the actual page layout. I strongly agree with that. Some time ago, when Cedric introduced that "enhancement" on the FR users list, I did emphasize the drawbacks noibs and some others have explained here. All what I received where names and the suggestion to go to the ux list to discuss that. I think the matter is not unimportant enough to be discussed in some hidden list while most *users* are here. Anyway, that functionality (the text limit suppress) is not complete until some option is added somewhere to get it back if one so desires. This alone stops me from using Writer v.3.5 on a regular basis. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12-02-14 02:36 PM, noibs wrote: > Here's the best workaround that I've discovered so far. [...] You could also enable the grid: Tools > Options > LibreOffice Writer > Grid > Visible Grid I'd consider the lack of an option to make the actual margins visible a regression bug. Cheers, Fabián Rodríguez http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:MagicFab -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGP/Mime available upon request Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk86y6sACgkQfUcTXFrypNVyMgCfQgDj1tPBGdiokR8Q2v3zpU8c WmYAn0TFWOODbVEMt8zV2o2d+LEWk0Ru =Va7q -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 2/14/2012 4:02 PM, Fabian Rodriguez wrote: > You could also enable the grid: Yeah, the grid does work for this purpose, which is why I haven't rolled back to 3.4.5. But the margin lines were so much nicer! - -- Steven Shelton -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk86zJMACgkQXUonIzCvpdMvbgCeMku8ZT2PAD/txPp/L3RbRAH9 4xwAn238EMwO4Gca9nYZgYLDNV7twQVZ =HOj9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 12-02-14 02:36 PM, noibs wrote: > Here's the best workaround that I've discovered so far. [...] You could also enable the grid: Tools > Options > LibreOffice Writer > Grid > Visible Grid I'd consider the lack of an option to make the actual margins visible a regression bug. Cheers, - -- Fabián Rodríguez http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:MagicFab -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: PGP/Mime available upon request Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk86y9gACgkQfUcTXFrypNXMlgCgkEmQAYlV3aOdKwEDJJxO+MXc N2QAoJNUH7w7vwiofs9zMDGk5yl1ippN =zVvt -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hi noibs, noibs schrieb: I have no illusions that I'm going to win this argument; however, I use the visible margins in two ways: 1. When deciding when to add a manual page break, I need to exactly how far until the end of the main page, excluding the space occupied by the footer. Let's say I'm getting ready to begin a third-level heading. Depending upon the visible space near the bottom of the page, I might decide to begin that section on the next page. Let LO decide it. You format your third-level heading with the style "Heading 3". It has the setting "Keep with next paragraph". So it will never happen, that the heading is on one page and the following paragraph on the next page. If you want that the paragraph has at least e.g. 4 lines on the bottom of the page, than set the orphan control to 4, or more extreme use the setting "do not split paragraph". With such settings the layout remains fine, if you insert or delete something before this third-level heading. Right now, I can't accurately guage that space, especially since my footer has some blank space above the text. If I'm beginning a Level 2 heading, I tend to start it on a new page unless there's about 2 inches at the bottom of a page. You can see the exact space in the vertical ruler and you get a delimiter line for the footer, when you hover the footer area with the mouse. But as mentioned above, there is no need to insert manual page breaks for that reason. 2. When adding any kind of graphical object to a Writer document, I sometimes manually expand the size of the object (proportionately) to be as large as the width of the page. I can keep enlarging the size until it's in the margins of the page--but I won't know that with LO 3.5 because I can't see the margins. This is a huge issue for me, because I embed many graphical objects (usually GDI Metafile objects from spreadsheets) in Writer documents and I often want them to be as large as the printed width of the page. If you stop allowing expansion of graphical objects past the margins, then this issue would be taken care of. You find all you need in Right click graphic > "Picture" > dialog page "Type". Mark "Follow textflow", Mark "Keep ratio", set width to "relative" and value to 100%. Just because certain individuals don't make use of certain user-interface features in both applications and operating systems doesn't mean view that issue in the same way. Further, my question is still valid--why should a long-time user-interface feature be completely eliminated as compared to making it a preference setting? I could make the argument that was made to me (justify why I use this)--I don't use about 70% of all preference settings in LibreOffice. My question was not intended to make you defend, but a simple question what you do with this lines, because they are only visual and have no function like snapping or so. Thus, let's eliminate these unless each person can justify why they use them. How would that be? I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but it's pretty insulting when you've been doing serious writing for about 30 years and then get a question like this. 30 years ago I used a typewriter with hard return at every line end ;) Frankly, I view the elimination of visible margins as part of the dumbing down of user interfaces that I'm seeing in Mac OS Lion, Ubuntu 11.10, and now LO. It's the "let's make it pretty to look at even if if compromises the usefulness" school of thought. Clearly, LO Writer is not as pretty to look at with margin guides showing. But, for me, it's more useful. C'mon--this is a "View" menu option if there ever was one. Perhaps you write a feature request to get such switch and/or write to libreoffice-ux-adv...@lists.freedesktop.org to discuss the feature with the developers? Please, don't get me wrong. I'm not against a switch to let the user decide, whether to show the border lines or not. But discussing here will not make it appear. Kind regards Regina -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hi :) I agree that it would be great to have the option of choosing the "page view" as i think it's called in MS Office rather than being forced into whatever fad people happen to want to force you into. Whaat? MS more configurable than OpenSource?? lol Regards from Tom :) --- On Tue, 14/2/12, noibs wrote: From: noibs Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Tuesday, 14 February, 2012, 19:17 I have no illusions that I'm going to win this argument; however, I use the visible margins in two ways: 1. When deciding when to add a manual page break, I need to exactly how far until the end of the main page, excluding the space occupied by the footer. Let's say I'm getting ready to begin a third-level heading. Depending upon the visible space near the bottom of the page, I might decide to begin that section on the next page. Right now, I can't accurately guage that space, especially since my footer has some blank space above the text. If I'm beginning a Level 2 heading, I tend to start it on a new page unless there's about 2 inches at the bottom of a page. 2. When adding any kind of graphical object to a Writer document, I sometimes manually expand the size of the object (proportionately) to be as large as the width of the page. I can keep enlarging the size until it's in the margins of the page--but I won't know that with LO 3.5 because I can't see the margins. This is a huge issue for me, because I embed many graphical objects (usually GDI Metafile objects from spreadsheets) in Writer documents and I often want them to be as large as the printed width of the page. If you stop allowing expansion of graphical objects past the margins, then this issue would be taken care of. Just because certain individuals don't make use of certain user-interface features in both applications and operating systems doesn't mean view that issue in the same way. Further, my question is still valid--why should a long-time user-interface feature be completely eliminated as compared to making it a preference setting? I could make the argument that was made to me (justify why I use this)--I don't use about 70% of all preference settings in LibreOffice. Thus, let's eliminate these unless each person can justify why they use them. How would that be? I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but it's pretty insulting when you've been doing serious writing for about 30 years and then get a question like this. Frankly, I view the elimination of visible margins as part of the dumbing down of user interfaces that I'm seeing in Mac OS Lion, Ubuntu 11.10, and now LO. It's the "let's make it pretty to look at even if if compromises the usefulness" school of thought. Clearly, LO Writer is not as pretty to look at with margin guides showing. But, for me, it's more useful. C'mon--this is a "View" menu option if there ever was one. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LO-3-5-Can-t-see-page-margins-in-Writer-tp3744148p3744673.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LO 3.5 - Can't see page margins in Writer
Hi noibs, noibs schrieb: [..] I'm a college professor who writes his own teaching materials. Each course features roughly a 400-page Writer document that contains a variety of inline graphical objects created in Draw or Calc and then pasted in as a GDI Metafile. Usually, I need to resize those images and having visible margins REALLY helps that process. Perhaps you only need a different workflow? Do you want to align the graphic with the left egde of the text area? Rightclick the graphic (or the surrounding frame in case of graphic with caption) and align left. Or do you not use the mouse at all? Then you need only the position&size dialog. You need not to see the page border, but LO will find it for you. I first thought too, I would need that border. But then I find no situation, where it is really needed. So please describe a goal, where you need the border line. Kind regards Regina -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
