Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/14/2011 11:43 PM, Joe Zeff wrote: On 06/14/2011 03:01 PM, Marcus D. Leech wrote: Which of those four items do you think should show up automatically when you plug in the drive? All four seems reasonable. Again, however, your missing my main complaint. It's not that the USB services don't report the label, it's that the devs claim falsely that it does and refused to look at the proof that they are wrong. Simply telling me shut up and go away! isn't a rational response; it's more like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand and hoping that the problem will go away. If you mean the threads Simple USB/Linux question and more on flash drives from a linux-usb a couple of years back I don't think I share your interpretation of the responses you received. http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/linux-usb/2009/12/26/6256324/thread http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/linux-usb/2009/12/27/6256335/thread The statement the kernel drivers make all the data available to the window manager, and it decides how to show the device. /includes/ data that is stored inside the device (when it is a block device like a USB mass storage device). This is also what was meant with the comment It's probably pulling the information directly from the device, or via udev.. The kernel provides basic standardised hardware properties directly via the sysfs virtual file system. This includes the attributes listed above (Vendor, Product etc.) - in short, anything that shows up in the output of udevadm info -a for a given piece of hardware. In modern Linux distributions programs like udev and udisks call out to lower-level userspace programs like scsi_id, blkid etc. to retrieve additional information about what is stored on the device. These programs open the device from userspace and read whatever information they need to via I/O calls, ioctl commands etc. This includes the filesystem-specific label, UUID and other metadata - Linux has long had a policy of handling this type of data in userspace and for good reasons (it's part of the UNIX heritage of separating mechanism from policy - the kernel provides the mechanisms to access the information but applies no particular policy as to what to do with it or how to present it). Partition tables are one ugly exception to this but there have even been discussions in recent years (and at least one patch set) to remove those from the kernel and handle them in user space instead. Reading, reporting and interpreting labels are not the job of the USB drivers or their maintainers. The right people to help really are the maintainers of the user space hardware abstraction subsystems and the various desktop environments. Regards, Bryn. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
Am 15.06.2011 05:57, schrieb James McKenzie: On 6/14/11 10:20 AM, Jon Ingason wrote: 2011-06-13 04:26, James McKenzie skrev: And before MacOX, there was Lisa and before Lisa was Star ;-) Not to forget: GS/OS (for the Apple IIgs) --- which influenced MacOS design. And before AppleDOS and a lot of others, CP/M, ... But that was lng ago! Lisa bombed, it was the first major failure for Apple. Never heard of Star (and if it was anything like Lisa, I don't want to.) Lisa bombed that's right, but it was the best you could do with hardware at these days. But a lot to expensive (and to late some say). -- Thomas -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 20:57 -0700, James McKenzie wrote: On 6/14/11 10:20 AM, Jon Ingason wrote: 2011-06-13 04:26, James McKenzie skrev: And before MacOX, there was Lisa and before Lisa was Star ;-) But that was lng ago! Lisa bombed, it was the first major failure for Apple. Never heard of Star (and if it was anything like Lisa, I don't want to.) Star was an attempt by Xerox to make some money out of what the PARC people were doing (you know, the people who invented window systems, Ethernet, laser printers, etc.). I actually saw one in a demo in the early 80's. It was basically a document processor -- the first commercial system with a WYSIWYG interface -- but the base price was around $15,000 per workstation IIRC and they sold very few. All this was before Steve Jobs visited PARC and picked up some interesting ideas ... See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star poc -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 07:36 -0500, Dave Ihnat wrote: We need to get more beginner docco out there--and get it to people. Maybe downloading a Linux distro results in an E-Mail to the user with a link to How Linux is Different from Windows--which is a video, and a text document, and maybe a downloadable E-Book--that describes what they're going to see, and how to do the same things in Linux they commonly have to do in Windows, and how to solve common installation problems--and avoids fanboi/religious rants while doing so. (No, this doesn't exist, AFAIK). A beginner's guide will have to be explicit. You can't throw a theory of operation, at them. You've got to show them exactly how to do certain tasks. Which means: There'll need to be specific guides for each release of Linux. Or, Linux releasers will have to stop changing how things are done. Even such things as applications changing names, positions in menus, or going from menus to some other choosing apparatus destroys instructions and user understanding. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun, 2011-06-12 at 20:04 -0700, James McKenzie wrote: Yes. To grow the desktop, we need to start embracing the common user. There are a limited number of geeks and they cannot sustain Linux. Not at a financially viable level... Hmm, well, you really *need* to be a geek to sustain Windows. What with all the security flaws, and it continually shooting itself in the foot.. The un-geek just doesn't understand how to use it, nor know how to deal with its problems. That's why the world is chock-o-block full of Windows viruses, trojans, and other nefarious malware. I would love to see the folks in Redmond squirm. Windows has so many problems that it should be banned from anywhere where reliability is key. Go to your local hospital and see what they are running. It scares me that they are running WindowsXP/Vista/Seven on the front end and WindowsServer on the back. I would, from a security viewpoint, love to see this replaced with Linux and running a secure UI program. This is easier on Linux than Windows... And this is an entirely different kettle of fish. A commercial installation can be anything, it doesn't have to be an OS that the users are already familiar with. And it's almost guaranteed that applications that employees use will be specialised, there will only be a limited number of different applications installed, and they'll be different from what they're used to, so training would be required. Go to a bank, and you may find that they're using ordinary PCs at the teller stations. But what they're running is a telnet client, or remote GUI, for their special application. So while booting up a machine may seem familiar, actually using it for the job isn't standard Windows territory. The operator just needs to know how to fill in their form. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 19:27 +0200, Jon Ingason wrote: I have used Linux since 1993 (0.98) and I am not a geek. Which of the five steps is that? -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Wed, 2011-06-15 at 11:38 +0100, Bryn M. Reeves wrote: Reading, reporting and interpreting labels are not the job of the USB drivers or their maintainers. The right people to help really are the maintainers of the user space hardware abstraction subsystems and the various desktop environments. And how about giving the devices a label? That's something that really sucks on all the Linux desktops I've tried. Other OS's let you select a device and rename it through the GUI. Don't like it being called USBdisc? Then rename it to musicdrive, the same way as you'd rename any other file or folder (usually: right-click, rename). -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/15/2011 02:02 PM, Tim wrote: On Wed, 2011-06-15 at 11:38 +0100, Bryn M. Reeves wrote: Reading, reporting and interpreting labels are not the job of the USB drivers or their maintainers. The right people to help really are the maintainers of the user space hardware abstraction subsystems and the various desktop environments. And how about giving the devices a label? That's something that really sucks on all the Linux desktops I've tried. Well, I'm an old fashioned terminal user and I don't mind reading the man page for mkfs.vfat to find out how to set the volume name of a file system (it's -n volume-name btw) but I see your point. Luckily udisks, the component that implements the disk abstractions used by the higher level desktop environment UIs appears to have thought of this: # rpm -ql udisks | grep label /usr/libexec/udisks-helper-change-filesystem-label If I launch gnome-disk-utility (Disk utility in the menu, palimpsest from the command line) either while the volume is unmounted, or unmount using the gui and select a USB key from the device tree I am presented with a Edit file system label button that allows me to change the label and hence the mountpoint name. The only part of all of this that gave me any cause to scratch my head was working out how to unmount the device using just the GUI (I didn't spot the Unmount Volume button in disk utility at first). Seriously - it took me about five minutes to figure this out. I wouldn't say that sucks too hard. Other OS's let you select a device and rename it through the GUI. Don't like it being called USBdisc? Then rename it to musicdrive, the same way as you'd rename any other file or folder (usually: right-click, rename). I agree it would be nice to have nautilus wired up to do this and it makes a lot of sense but the only bug report that I could find upstream was this: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=413172 Which is asking for a way to change the displayed (icon) name without changing the volume name.. Regards, Bryn. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
Tim: And how about giving the devices a label? That's something that really sucks on all the Linux desktops I've tried. Bryn M. Reeves: Well, I'm an old fashioned terminal user and I don't mind reading the man page for mkfs.vfat to find out how to set the volume name of a file system (it's -n volume-name btw) but I see your point. Things have probably improved since I last tried (still on Fedora 9, here). But my point was with a GUIfied system, one that's being touted as the bees knees, and doesn't require geek/guru status to use, everything should be do-able through the GUI, and the GUI should be self-documenting. If one has to resort to the command line, or even additional instructions, then the GUI design has failed. The last time I tried to do this with a DOS/FAT formatted drive, I had to figure out how to assign a drive letter to the drive, before I could use the DOS commands to apply a drive label (because those commands could only make use of DOS drive letters, rather than Linux device names). Other OS's let you select a device and rename it through the GUI. Don't like it being called USBdisc? Then rename it to musicdrive, the same way as you'd rename any other file or folder (usually: right-click, rename). I agree it would be nice to have nautilus wired up to do this and it makes a lot of sense but the only bug report that I could find upstream was this: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=413172 Which is asking for a way to change the displayed (icon) name without changing the volume name.. I miss the way this was handled back on my Amiga. In the root of a disc partition (or whole disk), was placed a disc.info file. Not only did it hold various bits of info about the disc (the same as file .info files did for their associated files or directories), it could also hold the icon image. Giving any disc a custom icon was simply a matter of putting a file into its root directory. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/14/2011 11:34 PM, James McKenzie wrote: On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Marcus D. Leech mle...@ripnet.com wrote: mount point and the desktop icon (on my F13/GNOME system). The problem continued to exist when I went to F14, and is still there now that I've switched to XFCE. My main complaint isn't that it doesn't work, it's that the USB devs refused to even admit that their software wasn't reporting the label, even when presented with evidence directly contradicting their claim. Yes, it's up to the DE to make use of the label but claiming that it's reported when it is not, isn't the best way to go, IMO. There are four items that are inherent to a USB Flash drive, regardless of what type of filesystem you've formatted it for: P: Vendor=0781 ProdID=5406 Rev= 0.10 S: Manufacturer=SanDisk S: Product=U3 Cruzer Micro On my XP installation this is EXACTLY what shows up when I plug in my USB drive. No other labels but what the device is. Some folks would love to see Mikey's USB Thingie but that is not what is written in hardware at the first glance and is only picked up if a device specific driver is loaded. That's not the case on a modern Linux desktop for most file systems that allow volume names/labels. Interpreting labels is done in user space (needs no special device drivers) and the use of that information is down to the desktop environment. For e.g. if I set the volume name (label) of a vfat USB key with either mkfs.vfat or the graphical gnome-disk-utility then Gnome3 in f15 mounts the key using the volume namer as the mount point name (and displays in in Computer/nautilus). Regards, Bryn. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/15/2011 04:14 PM, Tim wrote: Things have probably improved since I last tried (still on Fedora 9, here). But my point was with a GUIfied system, one that's being touted as the bees knees, and doesn't require geek/guru status to use, everything should be do-able through the GUI, and the GUI should be self-documenting. If one has to resort to the command line, or even additional instructions, then the GUI design has failed. I see you snipped out all the text where I described how I figured out how todo this using only the GUI in a couple of minutes on f15. Smooth. Please give it a try once you have updated to a release that has been supported some time in recent history. I hope that it will be to your liking. The last time I tried to do this with a DOS/FAT formatted drive, I had to figure out how to assign a drive letter to the drive, before I could use the DOS commands to apply a drive label (because those commands could only make use of DOS drive letters, rather than Linux device names). Huh?!? I miss the way this was handled back on my Amiga. In the root of a disc partition (or whole disk), was placed a disc.info file. Not only did it hold various bits of info about the disc (the same as file .info files did for their associated files or directories), it could also hold the icon image. Giving any disc a custom icon was simply a matter of putting a file into its root directory. Yeah I miss my Amigas too but the fact is that Commodore's leadership ensured that the platform was going to die out a long, long time ago. These days I have much more fun with my Linux boxes. Regards, Bryn. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
2011-06-15 05:57, James McKenzie skrev: On 6/14/11 10:20 AM, Jon Ingason wrote: 2011-06-13 04:26, James McKenzie skrev: And before MacOX, there was Lisa and before Lisa was Star ;-) But that was lng ago! Lisa bombed, it was the first major failure for Apple. Never heard of Star (and if it was anything like Lisa, I don't want to.) Star came from Xerox PARC 1981. See URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star An before Star came Alto 1973. See URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto James McKenzie -- Jon Ingason -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
Tim: The last time I tried to do this with a DOS/FAT formatted drive, I had to figure out how to assign a drive letter to the drive, before I could use the DOS commands to apply a drive label (because those commands could only make use of DOS drive letters, rather than Linux device names). Bryn M. Reeves: Huh?!? This is going back a long way, but as I recall it was the mlabel command that allowed you to add a volume name to a FAT drive. But you couldn't just do something like: mlabel /dev/sdb2 crapos First you had to use one command to associate /dev/sdb2 with a psuedo-drive letter e: (for example's sake), then you'd use the mlabel command with that psuedo drive letter, and your desired volume name. Intuitive it wasn't, and a real pain the neck to have to do. Particularly if you needed to customise several things. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
we have a Windows-free home! -- So you can't look outside because you have no Windows :( You could at least use curtains, shutters, or tint them to protect from the hot sun if your house would not be windows-free:) Could not resist! :( :) :) :) Regards, Antonio -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon June 13 2011, suvayu ali wrote: (snip) Isn't this easy to follow? Maybe there could be a one time splash screen reminding a new user on first login that the documentation is already on their system. that's a very good idea... and maybe put a shortcut on the desktop to it...labeled documentation or something similar. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun, 2011-06-12 at 19:26 -0700, James McKenzie wrote: Linux, although much superior, has a major problem and that is the UI. The 'best' UI out there at present is MacOSX. And I don't just say that because I use one, its because just about everyone out there is trying to imitate it. If you are trying to copy Windows7, you are trying to copy the functionality of MacOSX Aqua. It is simple and basically hides most functions most users will never want to touch and in most cases, should not touch. I guess I don't understand why people think the OSX UI is so good. I find myself swearing at it every day for really stupid crap that it does like terminal key bindings, case-insensitive file naming, etc. Basically all UI's suck at this point but you pick what you pick and adapt to using what's there as best as you can. For me, KDE 4 presents the least amount of interference. Now that the corporate e-mails have come out on what we need to do to protects ourselves against 'Mac Defender', I'm convinced that OSX is toast. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 07:14 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/13/2011 06:08 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I'll still keep an eye on Fedora for old time's sake. And 12 will stay on the system as a back up. So, it's not exactly farewell, just . . . Auf Wiedersehen, I've recently switched from briefs to boxers. Somehow I don't think that is worthy of an announcement either. :-) :-) I for one am far more interested in knowing the motivation for the switch than in debating Linux vs Windows. I'm suspecting it was the pink hearts. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/14/2011 05:42 AM, John Aldrich wrote: On Mon June 13 2011, suvayu ali wrote: (snip) Isn't this easy to follow? Maybe there could be a one time splash screen reminding a new user on first login that the documentation is already on their system. that's a very good idea... and maybe put a shortcut on the desktop to it...labeled documentation or something similar. I can see Documentation being intimidating for new users. A Tour could potentially be much friendlier. It also has the potential to be scripted in concert with the shell, so it can e.g. highlight the Activities hotspot when discussing it rather than just showing screenshots. Possibly have two versions: one for new users (fresh install, clean home directory) and one for upgraders (first run of new version in existing home dir). - Michael -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
--- On Mon, 6/13/11, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 06/13/2011 12:25 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: After all, most of the hardware is at least 6 years old. So, by today's standards, for a desktop, it's OLD, and I need it to maintain usability for another 2 to 3 years. The mobo and CPU on my main desktop box go back to '03, and I'm not in a position to consider an upgrade. F14 works fine for me, although it's starting to slow down a tad as things get more memory intensive. (The biggest problem is that the mobo is maxed out at 1Gig, even though the chip can handle twice that.) Of course, your needs are probably significantly different, and a merely 6 year old box may well be too old for you. Not too old, yet, but showing its age. My previous system was from the same era as yours--1GHz Duron, up to 1.5 GB RAM, although I only had 768MB in it. Fairly modern and speedy for its day. But 6 years ago, due to my work, I was forced to upgrade. The old system was just taking too long to do what needed to be done. I'm a commercial photographer, and work with large image files, some up to 100+ MB, but the average is 6 to 12. My current system was the optimum build--cost vs speed--6 years ago, but since that time the newer digital cameras have increased their image resolution, and, thus, exponentially their file sizes. It's taking longer and longer to do things that a few years ago was accomplished almost immediately. And since time is money . . . I figure I've got about 2 or, maybe, 3 years before I need to replace it as my primary work machine. Such is the price of progress. B -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
-- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 06/14/2011 04:38 AM, Craig White wrote: Basically all UI's suck at this point but you pick what you pick and adapt to using what's there as best as you can. They are software, therefore they suck. hey, hardware sucks too! charles zeitler Love is the law, love under will. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
2011-06-13 04:26, James McKenzie skrev: On 6/12/11 7:08 PM, nomnex wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:07:10 -0700 James McKenziejjmckenzi...@gmail.com wrote: snip all, not worth reading again I've been using computers since the 1970s. Hollerith cards, JCL and the whole bunch. Me too ;-) Again, the big breakthrough for home computer ownership was and remains Windows95. Not Linux, not MacOSX, but a cobbled together Piece of Bovine Excrement. But it brought the masses to computing. Linux, although much superior, has a major problem and that is the UI. The 'best' UI out there at present is MacOSX. And I don't just say that because I use one, its because just about everyone out there is trying to imitate it. And before MacOX, there was Lisa and before Lisa was Star ;-) But that was lng ago! James McKenzie -- Jon Ingason -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
2011-06-13 04:42, David skrev: Linux has always been the geek OS. And the directions have always been written in Geek for Geeks. No! Not any more! I have used Linux since 1993 (0.98) and I am not a geek. -- Jon Ingason -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
--- On Mon, 6/13/11, Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: Not all that old. I'm running kernel 2.6.32-5-amd64 on the Debian 6 VM, which I haven't checked lately to see if there's an update. My current kernel for F12 is 2.6.32.26-175 64-bit. Not that much difference. Remember, my hardware is 6 years old. Plus, I can always recompile. For pure Debian 6, you'll have 2.6.32 until Debian 7's released in the same way that RHEL 6 and Ubuntu 10.04 are pegged to 2.6.32 for their lifetimes. I don't have a problem with that. Once a system is built, it rarely is changed. I usually only change it when hardware breaks. So, I don't need the latest, most current kernel as long as everything works. ASIDE: I don't know where this almost pathological compulsion by some to have the newest, latest of something or they'll just die came from. I'm certainly not afflicted with it. I replace things when they break, but don't just because a newer version has been released. If you want a newer kernel (or newer anything else), you can either use the backport repositories or enable the testing/unstable ones (unless you want to recompile). I stay away from the testing/unstable repos. Stability is my number one requirement. Sometimes I'll recompile a kernel for efficiency to get rid of unneeded modules, but that's it. However, I don't know if it does any real good these days with gigahertz, multi-core CPUs and gigabytes of RAM, but I don't like having anything on a system that is not needed. Thanks for your input. B -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
--- On Tue, 6/14/11, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: From: Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com Subject: Re: Adieu, Fedora To: users@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Tuesday, June 14, 2011, 4:48 AM On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 07:14 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/13/2011 06:08 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I'll still keep an eye on Fedora for old time's sake. And 12 will stay on the system as a back up. So, it's not exactly farewell, just . . . Auf Wiedersehen, I've recently switched from briefs to boxers. Somehow I don't think that is worthy of an announcement either. :-) :-) I for one am far more interested in knowing the motivation for the switch than in debating Linux vs Windows. I'm suspecting it was the pink hearts. Craig -- There is a story at distrowatch comment # 66 about a person who used linux for a while and like it still does, but went back to windows because of several problems. Here's link: http://batsov.com/Linux/Windows/Rant/2011/06/11/linux-desktop-experience-killing-linux-on-the-desktop.html This is sad in some ways :(, the world is not perfect. While many users like and enjoy Fedora and other versions of Linux out there, not everything works as it could and in a place close to home several folks complain to me that * driver does not work that what a great system I use. I tell him that it might get there :( Regards, Antonio -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 14/06/2011 3:47 PM, Antonio Olivares wrote: There is a story at distrowatch comment # 66 about a person who used linux for a while and like it still does, but went back to windows because of several problems. Here's link: http://batsov.com/Linux/Windows/Rant/2011/06/11/linux-desktop-experience-killing-linux-on-the-desktop.html This is sad in some ways :(, the world is not perfect. While many users like and enjoy Fedora and other versions of Linux out there, not everything works as it could and in a place close to home several folks complain to me that * driver does not work that what a great system I use. I tell him that it might get there :( Regards, Antonio MANY of the comments in that article relate to driver support for various hardware--be it video or audio. The problem is that Linux is often at the mercy of the hardware manufacturers, who prioritize their development efforts on Windows, and usually add Linux as an afterthought. Some hardware vendors don't support Linux at all, and only release the bare-minimum of hardware documentation necessary to get *basic* functionality working. In an environment like that, it's hard for Linux to compete on things like hardware compatibility. The decks are cleared stacked against Linux desktop in that case. Which is a shame, but it's not like there's some kind of active conspiracy of mediocrity going on. The comments about Linux GUIs suck are, as far as I can tell, noise. See my comments of yesterday about how there's no such thing as a universally-wonderful UI. Sound is an ongoing problem--but again, it's very often the case that the problems exist either because the hardware vendors own offerings are rather lame, or they won't release sufficient information to allow proper (full-featured) drivers to be developed. On the USB front, there are also instances of devices claiming compliance with the standard protocols, but in fact, lying. Which means that the standard USB UAC-1 and UAC-2 class drivers in Linux are *doomed* to malfunction in certain ways, because they're being lied to by the hardware. On windows some proprietary driver gets loaded that knows where the incompatibilities are, and works around them. But a standards-compliant audio class driver in Linux doesn't have the necessary information, sometimes. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/14/2011 01:06 PM, Marcus D. Leech wrote: USB front, there are also instances of devices claiming compliance with the standard protocols, but in fact, lying. Which means that the standard USB UAC-1 and UAC-2 class drivers in Linux are *doomed* to malfunction in certain ways, because they're being lied to by the hardware. In some cases, it's worse than that. As you probably know, when you hook up a flash drive under Windows, it shows it in My Computer, named by the drive's label if it has one. In Linux, it shows up on the desktop, named for its brand, even if it has a label. I asked about this on the USB dev's list and they told me that when the drive's detected, the software tells the system everything and it's up to the DE's devs to fix this. I mounted a drive that I know had a label, then ran: dmesg | grep USB and saw that the detection software was not, in fact, reporting the label. I posted this to the list, and was told in no uncertain terms to shut up and go away! I think it's fair to say that in this case, not only didn't they know about the problem, they didn't want to know; they just wanted to point their finger at Somebody Else, and pretend that it wasn't their responsibility. If this is their attitude when the hardware's known to respond correctly if queried, it's not hard to imagine how they're going to respond in cases like what you're describing. And, in case any of you are wondering, I would have hoped that their response to my second post was more along the lines of, Oh, I guess it isn't reporting the label. We'll have to look into that one of these days. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
Once upon a time, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us said: In some cases, it's worse than that. As you probably know, when you hook up a flash drive under Windows, it shows it in My Computer, named by the drive's label if it has one. In Linux, it shows up on the desktop, named for its brand, even if it has a label. I asked about this on the USB dev's list and they told me that when the drive's detected, the software tells the system everything and it's up to the DE's devs to fix this. I mounted a drive that I know had a label, then ran: dmesg | grep USB and saw that the detection software was not, in fact, reporting the label. I posted this to the list, and was told in no uncertain terms to shut up and go away! The label is not a function of the hardware, it is part of the filesystem on the device. The kernel does not (and should not) read filesystem labels on randomly attached devices (the kernel doesn't care about filesystem labels at all). Detecting a filesystem label, mounting the filesystem, and presenting it to the user are all functions of the desktop environment; the USB hardware drivers are simply about presenting the block device to the kernel. I think it's fair to say that in this case, not only didn't they know about the problem, they didn't want to know; they just wanted to point their finger at Somebody Else, and pretend that it wasn't their responsibility. If this is their attitude when the hardware's known to respond correctly if queried, it's not hard to imagine how they're going to respond in cases like what you're describing. Since what you are talking about is NOT a hardware or driver function, you were asking the wrong people. If you had a similar attitude in your post to their list, it wouldn't be surprising for you to get a negative response. In any case, since you didn't say which desktop environment you are using, it is hard to know what your problem is. If I attach a flash drive with a FAT32 filesystem with a label, the label is used for the mount point and the desktop icon (on my F13/GNOME system). -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:06:30 -0400 Marcus D. Leech wrote: The problem is that Linux is often at the mercy of the hardware manufacturers, who prioritize their development efforts on Windows I have never understood why no one ever built a binary compatible windows driver environment for linux. Then you just run the dadgum windows drivers and be done with it :-). [Well, actually, I did once spend some time looking at the Windows DDK documentation, and I'd guess that anyone who tried to replicate the environment it provides would run screaming into the night - I don't actually understand how anyone is able to develop Windows drivers at all after looking at it]. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/14/2011 01:48 PM, Chris Adams wrote: Since what you are talking about is NOT a hardware or driver function, you were asking the wrong people. If you had a similar attitude in your post to their list, it wouldn't be surprising for you to get a negative response. The response to my first post was a (demonstrably false) claim that the detection software did, in fact, report the label, followed by the statement that I had to talk to my DE's devs. At the time, I was using F13 and Gnome, and had ample experience with the lack of response the Gnome devs were giving to users. In any case, since you didn't say which desktop environment you are using, it is hard to know what your problem is. If I attach a flash drive with a FAT32 filesystem with a label, the label is used for the mount point and the desktop icon (on my F13/GNOME system). The problem continued to exist when I went to F14, and is still there now that I've switched to XFCE. My main complaint isn't that it doesn't work, it's that the USB devs refused to even admit that their software wasn't reporting the label, even when presented with evidence directly contradicting their claim. Yes, it's up to the DE to make use of the label but claiming that it's reported when it is not, isn't the best way to go, IMO. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/14/2011 03:58 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:06:30 -0400 Marcus D. Leech wrote: The problem is that Linux is often at the mercy of the hardware manufacturers, who prioritize their development efforts on Windows I have never understood why no one ever built a binary compatible windows driver environment for linux. Then you just run the dadgum windows drivers and be done with it :-). ndiswrapper does exactly that for wireless drivers. On a couple of my previous laptops it was the only way to get reliable wireless. - Michael -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
--- On Tue, 6/14/11, charles zeitler cfzeit...@gmail.com wrote: From: charles zeitler cfzeit...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Adieu, Fedora To: Community support for Fedora users users@lists.fedoraproject.org Date: Tuesday, June 14, 2011, 10:14 AM -- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: On 06/14/2011 04:38 AM, Craig White wrote: Basically all UI's suck at this point but you pick what you pick and adapt to using what's there as best as you can. They are software, therefore they suck. hey, hardware sucks too! charles zeitler -- Some folks think that PCs will be a thing of the past :( that it will be Adieu PC http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2076571,00.html?xid=feed-yahoo-full-mostpopular Regards, Antonio -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [SPAM] Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011, Michael Ekstrand wrote: that's a very good idea... and maybe put a shortcut on the desktop to it...labeled documentation or something similar. I can see Documentation being intimidating for new users. A Tour could potentially be much friendlier. It also has the potential to be scripted in concert with the shell, so it can e.g. highlight the Activities hotspot when discussing it rather than just showing screenshots. Possibly have two versions: one for new users (fresh install, clean home directory) and one for upgraders (first run of new version in existing home dir). FWIW, as someone who's been upgrading Fedora since FC1, one of the things that does get lost in the noise is just exactly what is functionally different between versions. Yes, there's plenty of Change Logs and New Features and Gee, this is really cool readme's, but they don't give any practical type this, click that, info on the functional changes. Having a simple doc or web page for the changes would be a helpful thing, IMO. Joe -- And if I claim to be a wise man, well, it surly means that I don't know. -- Kansas, Carry on Wayward Son -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
Antonio Olivares wrote: There is a story at distrowatch comment # 66 about a person who used linux for a while and like it still does, but went back to windows because of several problems. Here's link: http://batsov.com/Linux/Windows/Rant/2011/06/11/linux-desktop-experience- killing-linux-on-the-desktop.html I must be lucky/unlucky, as I am a 95% Fedora/CentOS/5% Windows user, but find Windows problems take at least 50% of my time. I spent almost two days installing Windows XP on an HP MicroServer, where it had taken about an hour to install CentOS-5.6. The MicroServer has no CD driver, so Windows had to be installed from a USB stick. This is several times as difficult as the same thing for Linux. I used the bizarrely-named USB_MultiBoot_10.cmd, after trying WinToFlash, the most popular application for this. When I put in the USB stick and re-booted, all went well for a few minutes, and then the machine crashed with a warning that the problem might be due to a virus. After reading around, I found that one had to make a change in the BIOS, specifying IDE rather than Sata for the Sata disk. After this the machine booted into Windows, but neither the in-built Broadcom NIC, nor the Intel CT adaptor that I had installed, worked - though both had worked without any issue under CentOS. It was relatively easy to find the Intel driver, but the Broadcom driver was more difficult. After downloading them under CentOS I had Windows running at last. So in this case at least it was Linux 10, Windows 0. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
mount point and the desktop icon (on my F13/GNOME system). The problem continued to exist when I went to F14, and is still there now that I've switched to XFCE. My main complaint isn't that it doesn't work, it's that the USB devs refused to even admit that their software wasn't reporting the label, even when presented with evidence directly contradicting their claim. Yes, it's up to the DE to make use of the label but claiming that it's reported when it is not, isn't the best way to go, IMO. There are four items that are inherent to a USB Flash drive, regardless of what type of filesystem you've formatted it for: P: Vendor=0781 ProdID=5406 Rev= 0.10 S: Manufacturer=SanDisk S: Product=U3 Cruzer Micro S: SerialNumber=183B6773F834 Which of those four items do you think should show up automatically when you plug in the drive? I'll note that my desktop environment seems to automatically display the volume label, which for mkfsed volumes appears to be a long hexadecimal volume label. The fact that the above items show up when you look at /proc/bus/usb/devices, means that the driver has them, and likely exposes them via an IOCTL. Whether the desktop environment actually *uses* that IOCTL to query the device is another matter. But it isn't the *drivers* responsibility to read and understand the data that is stored on the device--that's up to higher layers in the system. Devices drivers, in general, know very little about the meaning of the data on the devices they control. They're function in life is to dutifully shuffle data back and forth, and provide interfaces to control the attributes of the device. Now, I'm not going to excuse rudeness on the part of the USB device driver guys, but higher-layer understanding of the data on a drive is clearly not the domain of a device driver or the writers of same. So, when your can't get any label information drive is plugged in, can you find it under /proc/bus/usb/devices? And if so, what device information is available for it? If there's some type of non-standard data blob that contains the information you seek, then unless the USB driver is taught how to understand said blob, then it remains a blob of unkown purpose and shape to the driver. Even if the driver said dear USB drive, tell me all the blobs you have, it can only do sensible things with the blobs it understands, and said blobs are typically encapsulated in a documented standard somewhere. Non-standard blobs are kind of hit and miss. If there are non-standard blobs that everyone just knows, then support for them in the driver is much more likely than blobs that are deeply proprietary, or require unpleasant legal machinations to discover the semantics of such blobs. -- Marcus Leech Principal Investigator Shirleys Bay Radio Astronomy Consortium http://www.sbrac.org -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 23:56:17 +0200 Timothy Murphy wrote: So in this case at least it was Linux 10, Windows 0. My new Dell Zino HTPC is a mixed bag. I have yet to discover any way to get sound to come out the HDMI connection on Fedora, so that makes it just a tad useless as a home theatre box :-). On the other hand, the video drivers default settings were horrible on Windows 7. I spent a good week or two discovering how to get ATI to stop protecting me from the overscan problem that no LCD display actually has. And even though I can get sound on Windows 7, the Windows Media Center software has no way to adjust audio/video sync, so there is about a 400 millisecond offset (I don't know if it is the HDMI audio, the TV, or what). I can run the Windows build of mplayer/smplayer and get the sync adjusted, but I can't seem to get the media center remote to control smplayer, so I have a choice of watching properly synced videos or being able to use the remote. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: [SPAM] Re: Adieu, Fedora
Joe Klemmer wrote: Having a simple doc or web page for the changes would be a helpful thing, IMO. Fedora Weekly News used to contain short, useful, informal articles. I enjoyed it very much. Then it suddenly changed to a kind of in-house data-sheet, with information about committee meetings of various kinds. I thought it was a great loss. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Marcus D. Leech mle...@ripnet.com wrote: mount point and the desktop icon (on my F13/GNOME system). The problem continued to exist when I went to F14, and is still there now that I've switched to XFCE. My main complaint isn't that it doesn't work, it's that the USB devs refused to even admit that their software wasn't reporting the label, even when presented with evidence directly contradicting their claim. Yes, it's up to the DE to make use of the label but claiming that it's reported when it is not, isn't the best way to go, IMO. There are four items that are inherent to a USB Flash drive, regardless of what type of filesystem you've formatted it for: P: Vendor=0781 ProdID=5406 Rev= 0.10 S: Manufacturer=SanDisk S: Product=U3 Cruzer Micro On my XP installation this is EXACTLY what shows up when I plug in my USB drive. No other labels but what the device is. Some folks would love to see Mikey's USB Thingie but that is not what is written in hardware at the first glance and is only picked up if a device specific driver is loaded. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/14/2011 03:01 PM, Marcus D. Leech wrote: Which of those four items do you think should show up automatically when you plug in the drive? All four seems reasonable. Again, however, your missing my main complaint. It's not that the USB services don't report the label, it's that the devs claim falsely that it does and refused to look at the proof that they are wrong. Simply telling me shut up and go away! isn't a rational response; it's more like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand and hoping that the problem will go away. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote: In any case, since you didn't say which desktop environment you are using, it is hard to know what your problem is. If I attach a flash drive with a FAT32 filesystem with a label, the label is used for the mount point and the desktop icon (on my F13/GNOME system). The problem continued to exist when I went to F14, and is still there now that I've switched to XFCE. My main complaint isn't that it doesn't work, it's that the USB devs refused to even admit that their software wasn't reporting the label, even when presented with evidence directly contradicting their claim. Yes, it's up to the DE to make use of the label but claiming that it's reported when it is not, isn't the best way to go, IMO. Are you sure its not a problem with your setup or hardware itself? It works for me here. When I mount my USB external HDD or USB flash drive, they are mounted as /media/partition_label/ and shortcuts are placed on my desktop. This is with F14 and F15 (XFCE). As far as I recall, this has worked ever since I can recall (that would be sometime around F10). -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/14/2011 03:53 PM, suvayu ali wrote: Are you sure its not a problem with your setup or hardware itself? Well, I'll be danged. It works now. It never did before, either on my desktop or my laptop. Still, that doesn't address the attitude of the devs when I pointed out to them that their claim was false, does it? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/14/2011 03:34 PM, James McKenzie wrote: Some folks would love to see Mikey's USB Thingie but that is not what is written in hardware at the first glance and is only picked up if a device specific driver is loaded. That's fine. And, if the USB devs had said that, and told me that they don't feel it's their responsibility to show it, I might have asked their reasons, but I wouldn't have been too upset. Simply claiming that it did show the label and refusing to examine the evidence is what I'm upset with. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Tue June 14 2011, Michael Ekstrand wrote: I can see Documentation being intimidating for new users. A Tour could potentially be much friendlier. It also has the potential to be scripted in concert with the shell, so it can e.g. highlight the Activities hotspot when discussing it rather than just showing screenshots. Possibly have two versions: one for new users (fresh install, clean home directory) and one for upgraders (first run of new version in existing home dir). Sure... that sounds like a great idea. Now all we have to do is get someone to do it. :D -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/14/11 10:20 AM, Jon Ingason wrote: 2011-06-13 04:26, James McKenzie skrev: And before MacOX, there was Lisa and before Lisa was Star ;-) But that was lng ago! Lisa bombed, it was the first major failure for Apple. Never heard of Star (and if it was anything like Lisa, I don't want to.) James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/12/2011 05:07 PM, James McKenzie wrote: he decision has been made, for us by others, that the desktop will move into the 21st Century. I would rather say that certain people have decided what the desktop of the 21st Century will be and have also decided that the rest of us will have no choice but to go along with them. Who knows; they may be right, but if so, I'll stick with the desktop of the Second Millennium, TYVM, and if that means no longer using Gnome, then that's what I'll do. However, I do hope that all of you who continue with Gnome are happy with it because, as has been pointed out many times, Linux is all about choice, and there's room for many different ways of doing things. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/12/2011 07:54 PM, James McKenzie wrote: People are tired of using poor quality software written to a broken OS. Say rather that most people are so used to badly written software and a broken OS that they don't realize how bad things are; they think it's normal. Right now, I'm house sitting for Jerry Pournelle (http://www.jerrypournelle.com) the BYTE columnist and SF author. For years he's been calling both Unix and Linux an employment program for gurus. Mind you, he does stuff on his Windows boxes that most power users couldn't understand, but that's different; he understands DOS commands. I'm still trying, off and on, to get him to take another look at Linux. Not Fedora, Ubuntu, because if he's going to try Linux, he's going to need a distro that's as easy to use as possible because he has neither the time nor the inclination for the learning curve that Fedora would require. Still, if I can get him to see how good it is, we'll have a vocal and highly-visible advocate on our side. (Please note that he's not too much of a Windows fanatic. I think he has at least one Linux server here, and I know he's experimented with recent Macs and had good things to say about them.) So getting a Good Word about Linux from his is worth getting because there are a lot of people out there who heed his word. The point is, you have to match the distro to the user, not the other way around. If the OP isn't happy with Fedora, I hope he finds a distro he likes better. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Marcus D. Leech mle...@ripnet.com wrote: Yup, man pages aren't very friendly for newbs. But they aren't really intended for that audience. They're intended as handy reference documents, rather than tutorials. Some of them are better written than others. Unfortunately, not all software developers are also skilled technical writers. Sad fact. In a well-funded corporate effort, there'd be tech writers working alongside the developers. The fact is that more competent software developers are drawn to the open-source world than tech writers. A lot of information on how to do things in linux actually comes from lists exactly like this one! There is a need for some simple startup tips for the new user, and to a large extent a new user will likely have had his/her system installed by someone else who knows how to do the install, rather than converting from Windows themselves (though it does happen of course) - and remember that the vast majority of Windows users never did or ever will do an install themselves - they buy a laptop or desktop, and hit the power button - and it all comes to life. If a Linux geek installs a system, be it F14, F15, or any other, on behalf of an existing Windows user, and then gives the new Fedora system to the user they will largely be able to work with it with only a little help initially - they may need help with configuring a mail client, but that would be the same for Windows users too. Many people would be happy with a web browser, a music player, and a picture viewer, plus printer - after that many programs for a typical user get much less use time. I think that in that instance an average Windows user confronted with a new linux system, and shown how to login would be off and running quite quickly - the problem arises when something does not work - and in the case of Windows that is also where the user gets very stuck and often then either calls in an expert, or tries to fix it him/her-self - often producing a broken system that needs an expert calling in also! Much the same for inexperienced linux users too! I have installed linux for friends and relatives, and remain the expert helping hand for when things go wrong. For a Windows system there is always the fallback to take the machine down to the local PCworld or similar where technicians will try to fix the machine or re-install the system - that commercial route is not usually available to linux noobs. However there are wiki pages for linux, as well as the Fedora lists and similar and are a superb and valuable resource, and also some very excellent help written on dedicated web pages (such as the kde web pages) - and although we often grumble when something is broken in linux, and specifically Fedora, we are actually in a very fortunate position that we have bugzilla to which not only other users respond, but also developers - it may take time but usually there is a solution in the end - and we always have to remember that we are riding the cutting edge! Quite often linux experts provide wonderful levels of direct help and advice on Fedora lists and similar. Show me rapid responses to Windows bugs? Where and how do Windows problems get fixed with an interactive dialogue with the reporter? It doesn't! So despite the Fedora issues with systemd, and gnome3, currently - these are being worked on - and although it may take a release cycle to fix some of the issues we are actually still the best in the business, so let's not forget our real position. -- mike c -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:11 AM, Antonio Olivares olivares14...@yahoo.com wrote: Why? There are many people out there that play games, and for gaming no OS out there, no Crossover, wine, ..., Virtual machines out there beat windows. Most of the games are for windows and till linux creates games that are on par with the ones that are played in windows. It is perfectly possible to run Fedora, with a Windows VM, and then play the games in the VM! That way you get the security of linux with the wonderful fallback if the Windows VM get messed up - just pull the VM back from that backup file that you of course always keep up to date - and you are done - none of that install, reboot, update, reboot, update, reboot, install new game package, reboot, update, reboot, reboot, reboot - oh dear have I overused the reboot word by one! Despite the problems Fedora still rocks! -- mike c -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
The point is, you have to match the distro to the user, not the other way around. If the OP isn't happy with Fedora, I hope he finds a distro he likes better. The primary end user Linux UI is Android. In that sense the argument is over for the moment. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 08:42:57AM +0100, mike cloaked wrote: A lot of information on how to do things in linux actually comes from lists exactly like this one! Well, yes. As does a lot of help for Windows, and Mac... But the newbies won't see them. And they won't do the Tour in XP, or Vista, or 7--I've been a consultant for over 30 years, and nobody I've helped or worked with has *ever* done the Tour that they've admitted to me. They ask me, or others. They look for books; just looking on Amazon in books with the keyword Windows gives top choices (just picking the starter books): Windows 7 For Dummies Microsoft Operating Systems Windows 7: The Missing Manual Windows 7 Inside Out Windows 7 Step by Step Windows 7 For Seniors for Dummies And it goes on...and on...for pages. 54,050 results (although we all know what counts such as that mean, it's apples to apples for similar searches.) Now, look for Linux--again, only picking the starter books: Linux in a Nutshell Beginning Ubuntu Linux Linux for Dummies Practical Guide to Ubuntu Linux Linux All-in-One For Dummies Practical Unix/Linux (For the Rest of Us) But there are 7,391 results. Differences? Well, clearly, far fewer hits than for Windows. But qualitatively: o The first couple of pages of the Linux search show far, far more guru/kernel/CLI/development hits, fewer general-user beginner hits (I had to go more pages in to get the same count of six beginner books.) o The distro that shows up most often is Ubuntu. They're doing something right--that's getting the attention of the authors. So if they're inclined to learn about a system, most often I've been asked Is there a book?, not Should I take the Tour? (well, the latter, never.) But the other problem is simple familiarity--by now, Windows 7, almost all users have gone through at least one Windows OS (XP--I'm not counting Vista); many have worked on two or more. There *is* a continuity in behavior, operation, and expectation; even Windows 7 shows its roots going back to Windows 95 in the UI. And users crave that comfortable familiarity; when trying something new, abnormal behavior will strike hardest, and frustration with what should be simple tasks will cost much more. An excellent example--just this weekend, a friend who's technologically savvy in her field (oceanographic research) and very well-inclined to Linux decided to try to install a dual-boot Ubuntu/Windows XP system. We all know that graphics support has been the bugaboo (right ahead of wireless); recent Ubuntu distros (and probably others) have gotten pretty darn good at detecting and properly setting up adapters. Unfortunately, hers wasn't one of them--so there was an immediate Arrgh! from her. Worse, Grub didn't properly see her USB keyboard, so now she's not able to go back to her XP installation. Sure, the Grub thing is (probably) a BIOS configuration problem--legacy USB probably needs to be turned on--but the tolerance for such problems is low in a new installation, especially with the fear of losing the current working OS installation. And yes, xrandr helped--once she reached out--and, well, let her tell it: I finally found the xwindows manager - that did recognize the Sony monitor and allowed me to change the resolution so that I can see the entire desktop. The boot problem remains. And I have a new problem... after watching me go through this, the other member of the household is not keen on this OS experiment, so I may just use that new disk I have for an XP reinstall. We noticed Ubuntu is not much faster booting or running at all than the old installation of XP it does shut down faster. So here's a well-disposed, intelligent but non-CS user who's actually worked through the first major problem, and has a probable solution for the second--but even so, is thinking of giving up because of those issues--partly because of pressure from others in the house, partly because she hasn't been able to get to the point of investigating the system because of starter's unfamiliarity and initial problems that colored the experience. We need to get more beginner docco out there--and get it to people. Maybe downloading a Linux distro results in an E-Mail to the user with a link to How Linux is Different from Windows--which is a video, and a text document, and maybe a downloadable E-Book--that describes what they're going to see, and how to do the same things in Linux they commonly have to do in Windows, and how to solve common installation problems--and avoids fanboi/religious rants while doing so. (No, this doesn't exist, AFAIK). Cheers, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:36:20 -0500 Dave Ihnat wrote: And users crave that comfortable familiarity; when trying something new, abnormal behavior will strike hardest, and frustration with what should be simple tasks will cost much more. This problem extends even to phones :-). It was several weeks before I discovered long press on my first (android) smart phone. Apparently everyone just knows that long press is the equivalent on a touch screen of right click with a mouse. There was a tutorial app on the phone, but the only thing it talked about was the onscreen keyboard. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Phil Savoie psavoie1...@rogers.com wrote: On 12/06/2011 11:12 PM, David wrote: I see. Now I understand you completely. Since Linux is user supported. I am sure that the developers would welcome any tutorials that you would write and provide. That is the way the Linux works. As for the folks in Redmond? I doubt that they will loose a minute of sleep over your efforts unless you really, really put forth major efforts in this respect. Have a good day. James, No point in arguing with this guy. I'm not going to argue with him. I'm pointing out why Linux is not the rage on the desktop. I know that RH folks lurk here and I will respond to their messages in a civil and clear tone. Remember, some folks need training wheels on their bikes. Some just crash until they get it right (I was the latter.) Some have their parents hold their hands/seat. Computer users are cut from the same silk and thus I am one of those that charges ahead and if the system crashes, I rebuild and start over... James -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun, 2011-06-12 at 20:04 -0700, James McKenzie wrote: el... I would love to see the folks in Redmond squirm. Windows has so many problems that it should be banned from anywhere where reliability is key. Go to your local hospital and see what they are running. It scares me that they are running WindowsXP/Vista/Seven on the front end and WindowsServer on the back. I would, from a security viewpoint, love to see this replaced with Linux and running a secure UI program. This is easier on Linux than Windows... James McKenzie Not only do I agree with this, but I recently purchased a new laptop for work. It came with Windows 7 Home Premium. I then began bringing up the utilities for my work. The first one took two days to get working. The second took 3 weeks, and I ended up having to go to the top version of windows 7, an additional 100+US$. I haven't upgraded to F15 yet, but the other tools I use on a daily basis are all installed and working, and the reload time to get everything going on F14 was 8 hours, not counting the download time. If you add the download time and the upgrade time over DSL, it took a total of 23.5 hours. I routinely use over 30 applications on Linux, and only 6 on windows. So guess which I prefer. My Linux systems are still the best in my work, in my hobbies, and only fall short in gaming, but mostly I haven't looked up any Linux gaming sites, because I only really like one game, Age of Empires III, which I play on Windows by dual booting my computer. Regards, Les H -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 7:37 PM, David wrote: I disagree. He makes a very valid point. New installs of Windows always come up with a tutorial and helper app. I have never seen anything like that on Linux Really? Seriously? What New installs of Windows of Windows are you referring to? None that I have seen do this. Version numbers of Windows? Dates of install? I can't think of any. I don't really have a horse in this race, but I remember such apps and popups myself. And it didn't take me but ten seconds to google an example: http://techsalsa.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/take-tour-windows-xp.png Arguments about the usefulness of this are perhaps in order, but to argue that it didn't exist at all seems silly to me. -Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun June 12 2011, Stephen Bunn wrote: Seriously? You aren't really trying to argue the point that windows has better documentation than GNU/Linux. That and the *goal* shouldn't be who has the most users. The *goal* should be a desktop that does what the user base needs it to do. The GNU/Linux user communities need to stop this nonsense of trying to compete with Windows and/or OS X. Instead we should be focusing on building an operating system that works for the existing user base. If its good other people *will* learn it. No, I think that Windows is just more user-friendly and does more hand- holding than Linux. I think we need to get out of the mindset of we don't want 'everybody' using linux because then it wouldn't be cool. It often seems that's the attitude that a lot of people have, and I think we ought to be doing more to encourage joe 6pack to pick up a copy of Linux and install it over Windows. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 13/06/2011 3:01 PM, John Aldrich wrote: No, I think that Windows is just more user-friendly and does more hand- holding than Linux. I think we need to get out of the mindset of we don't want 'everybody' using linux because then it wouldn't be cool. It often seems that's the attitude that a lot of people have, and I think we ought to be doing more to encourage joe 6pack to pick up a copy of Linux and install it over Windows. Well sure. But let's not go down the path of lobotomizing it to the point where it has achieved glorified typewriter status. Which is, I'm afraid, where most people's mindset is about computers in general, and Windows in particular. If we make the system so stupid that it can't be used for further development of the system, then we've failed gloriously. It should never reach the point that the Fedora developer feels tempted to reach for something else, because the system he's developing for is inadequate for the task of developing. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Alan Cox a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote: The point is, you have to match the distro to the user, not the other way around. If the OP isn't happy with Fedora, I hope he finds a distro he likes better. The primary end user Linux UI is Android. In that sense the argument is over for the moment. Alan I agree. Android is growing and has more eyeballs/users. Due to sheer numbers it will become the de facto GUI. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
--- On Sun, 6/12/11, Andras Simon sza...@gmail.com wrote: On 6/13/11, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: [...] Considered XFCE and LXDE instead, but decided the best option was to abandon the Desktop GUI environment all-together in favor of a well-featured window manager, simple launch bar for most used apps, floating menus for the others, and a terminal or two. I don't really need all the other crap. Not even 3D. Welcome to the club :-) I never understood what these desktop environments give mankind that a window manager doesn't. But then I never launch programs; they are either running all the time (Firefox, Emacs, c) or are started from the command line (mplayer, xpdf, ...). (I'm nevertheless using Xfce on a netbook, because I was too lazy to fight the system :-)) My primary choice is Debian 6, 64-bit, and Openbox. I've been testing both in VirtualBox for a few months. So far, so good. I think the difference between running a distro virtualized and on your real computer is like the difference between dating someone and marrying her :-) But I hope it turns out well for you! Running Debian in a VM was not for check system compatibility (That's already been done), but to experiment with doing a Base install and then adding and configuring the rest of the system piece by piece to gain the leanest, most efficient system without resorting to the Linux-From-Scatch approach. After all, most of the hardware is at least 6 years old. So, by today's standards, for a desktop, it's OLD, and I need it to maintain usability for another 2 to 3 years. At that time, I'll decide whether to build another or abandon the traditional box concept entirely. Good luck, Thanks. B -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
--- On Sun, 6/12/11, Digimer li...@alteeve.com wrote: On 06/12/2011 06:08 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: It's been a nice ride these past 7 years with Fedora as my primary OS, but it's time to move on. My current [snip] Every distro exists to fit a niche. That Fedora is not the one for your needs is fine, and I hope Debian 6 works well for you. As a former Debian/Ubuntu user now on CentOS/RHEL and Fedora, I've moved around, too. The strength on Linux is the choice available to it's users. One of the reasons I chose Linux 10 years ago when I switched from the Amiga. B -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon June 13 2011, Marcus D. Leech wrote: Well sure. But let's not go down the path of lobotomizing it to the point where it has achieved glorified typewriter status. Which is, I'm afraid, where most people's mindset is about computers in general, and Windows in particular. If we make the system so stupid that it can't be used for further development of the system, then we've failed gloriously. It should never reach the point that the Fedora developer feels tempted to reach for something else, because the system he's developing for is inadequate for the task of developing. No, I would not advocate lobotomizing linux either. I just think it would be extremely helpful if we had something similar to the tour that XP takes you on (if you let it) when you first install. Not to mention the helper that comes up when you're installing it and finishing the configuration. I just think we need some n00b tools to help ease new users into Linux that advanced users can ignore or at least tell to go away. I mean, can you imagine handing some random person on the street a laptop with Fedora installed and saying here you go... Most of them would probably have no idea what to do. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/13/2011 12:25 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: After all, most of the hardware is at least 6 years old. So, by today's standards, for a desktop, it's OLD, and I need it to maintain usability for another 2 to 3 years. The mobo and CPU on my main desktop box go back to '03, and I'm not in a position to consider an upgrade. F14 works fine for me, although it's starting to slow down a tad as things get more memory intensive. (The biggest problem is that the mobo is maxed out at 1Gig, even though the chip can handle twice that.) Of course, your needs are probably significantly different, and a merely 6 year old box may well be too old for you. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
RE: Adieu, Fedora
- Visite o estande da Itautec no CIAB, maior evento de Tecnologiapara o setor financeiro, e conheça soluções inovadoras 15 a 17 de junho - Transamérica Expo Center - São Paulo - SP Inscreva-se no site www.ciab.com.br www.itautec.com.br twitter.com/itautec facebook.com/itautec - -Original Message- No, I would not advocate lobotomizing linux either. I just think it would be extremely helpful if we had something similar to the tour that XP takes you on (if you let it) when you first install. Not to mention the helper that comes up when you're installing it and finishing the configuration. Yes, and a cute little dog when you do a file search would be nice too! 0 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
--- On Sun, 6/12/11, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.com wrote: Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: It's been a nice ride these past 7 years with Fedora as my primary OS, but it's time to move on. This reminds me of OS/2 users on oS/2 maling list who often decided that not only they had to change OS, they had to write a long tirade telling others why they decided to leave, and why their once-favorite OS was doomed. As is sharing their grief with the rest of the community were of some use for anyone. No grief. No tirade. No insults. Just a polite good-bye and an explanation of why. Any organization deserves at least that much from one of its members. I say: good riddance! Why does my switching distros bother you so much that you need to resort to insults to slake that animosity? B -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
OT: RE: Adieu, Fedora
Yes, and a cute little dog when you do a file search would be nice too! Speaking of cute little dogs...maybe someone should redo M$ Bob for Linux...we could call it Linux Boob :-) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
--- On Sun, 6/12/11, JD jd1...@gmail.com wrote: On 06/12/2011 03:08 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: It's been a nice ride these past 7 years with Fedora as my primary OS, but it's time to move on. My current [snip] As was stated in a recent response on this list, Fedora is always in test mode, so will always change rapidly. You will find that Debian uses very old releases of kernel and user apps and libs, thus much of the new advances are not available for it from it's vanilla repos. Not all that old. I'm running kernel 2.6.32-5-amd64 on the Debian 6 VM, which I haven't checked lately to see if there's an update. My current kernel for F12 is 2.6.32.26-175 64-bit. Not that much difference. Remember, my hardware is 6 years old. Plus, I can always recompile. Also, if you are looking for support over many years, are you sure that it is actively supported and new bugs fixed in this release version you have chosen? One of the reasons I chose Debian. Support usually lasts around 4 to 5 years for everything. They just stopped support on Debian 4 this past February. 4 was released April 2007. So, 4 years. A nice run. All I'll need for now. B -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon June 13 2011, Dave Ihnat wrote: We need to get more beginner docco out there--and get it to people. Maybe downloading a Linux distro results in an E-Mail to the user with a link to How Linux is Different from Windows--which is a video, and a text document, and maybe a downloadable E-Book--that describes what they're going to see, and how to do the same things in Linux they commonly have to do in Windows, and how to solve common installation problems--and avoids fanboi/religious rants while doing so. (No, this doesn't exist, AFAIK). That's a VERY good idea... maybe even have a beginner's setup and an advanced user setup where the beginner setup asks things like what's your email address and automatically sets up a default email client for them so they can *receive* the email. :D -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:36 AM, Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com wrote: We need to get more beginner docco out there--and get it to people. Maybe downloading a Linux distro results in an E-Mail to the user with a link to How Linux is Different from Windows--which is a video, and a text document, and maybe a downloadable E-Book--that describes what they're going to see, and how to do the same things in Linux they commonly have to do in Windows, and how to solve common installation problems--and avoids fanboi/religious rants while doing so. (No, this doesn't exist, AFAIK). file:///usr/share/doc/HTML/fedora-release-notes/en-US/index.html or, file:///usr/share/doc/HTML/fedora-release-notes/your_lang_env/index.html Isn't this easy to follow? Maybe there could be a one time splash screen reminding a new user on first login that the documentation is already on their system. -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: Not all that old. I'm running kernel 2.6.32-5-amd64 on the Debian 6 VM, which I haven't checked lately to see if there's an update. My current kernel for F12 is 2.6.32.26-175 64-bit. Not that much difference. Remember, my hardware is 6 years old. Plus, I can always recompile. For pure Debian 6, you'll have 2.6.32 until Debian 7's released in the same way that RHEL 6 and Ubuntu 10.04 are pegged to 2.6.32 for their lifetimes. If you want a newer kernel (or newer anything else), you can either use the backport repositories or enable the testing/unstable ones (unless you want to recompile). -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/13/2011 12:21 PM, Kam Leo wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Alan Coxa...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote: The point is, you have to match the distro to the user, not the other way around. If the OP isn't happy with Fedora, I hope he finds a distro he likes better. The primary end user Linux UI is Android. In that sense the argument is over for the moment. Alan I agree. Android is growing and has more eyeballs/users. Due to sheer numbers it will become the de facto GUI. So, how do I get it as my Fedora desktop on my Intel/AMD based PC? John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Adieu, Fedora
It's been a nice ride these past 7 years with Fedora as my primary OS, but it's time to move on. My current and future needs are for a support life measured in years, not months. And CentOS and Scientific Linux didn't fulfill my other requirements. Neither did the Rolling Release distros: At some point, support for older hardware must be dropped to make way for new, and the old system breaks. I can't have that. So, with the release of 15 (I'm still using 12), which would have traditionally been my next upgrade, my decision was finalized. GNOME 3 was really what did it. After using it for a while to get familiar with it, I decided I just didn't like it. And KDE is still a resource gluten--the primary reason I left it years ago. Considered XFCE and LXDE instead, but decided the best option was to abandon the Desktop GUI environment all-together in favor of a well-featured window manager, simple launch bar for most used apps, floating menus for the others, and a terminal or two. I don't really need all the other crap. Not even 3D. My primary choice is Debian 6, 64-bit, and Openbox. I've been testing both in VirtualBox for a few months. So far, so good. I'll still keep an eye on Fedora for old time's sake. And 12 will stay on the system as a back up. So, it's not exactly farewell, just . . . Auf Wiedersehen, B -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/13/11, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: [...] Considered XFCE and LXDE instead, but decided the best option was to abandon the Desktop GUI environment all-together in favor of a well-featured window manager, simple launch bar for most used apps, floating menus for the others, and a terminal or two. I don't really need all the other crap. Not even 3D. Welcome to the club :-) I never understood what these desktop environments give mankind that a window manager doesn't. But then I never launch programs; they are either running all the time (Firefox, Emacs, c) or are started from the command line (mplayer, xpdf, ...). (I'm nevertheless using Xfce on a netbook, because I was too lazy to fight the system :-)) My primary choice is Debian 6, 64-bit, and Openbox. I've been testing both in VirtualBox for a few months. So far, so good. I think the difference between running a distro virtualized and on your real computer is like the difference between dating someone and marrying her :-) But I hope it turns out well for you! Good luck, Andras -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/13/2011 06:08 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote: I'll still keep an eye on Fedora for old time's sake. And 12 will stay on the system as a back up. So, it's not exactly farewell, just . . . Auf Wiedersehen, I've recently switched from briefs to boxers. Somehow I don't think that is worthy of an announcement either. :-) :-) Good luck to you FWIW, I did find that boxers still bunch up from time to time too. :-) :-) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 19:08, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: It's been a nice ride these past 7 years with Fedora as my primary OS, but it's time to move on. This reminds me of OS/2 users on oS/2 maling list who often decided that not only they had to change OS, they had to write a long tirade telling others why they decided to leave, and why their once-favorite OS was doomed. As is sharing their grief with the rest of the community were of some use for anyone. I say: good riddance! FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 20:14, Ed Greshko ed.gres...@greshko.com wrote: I've recently switched from briefs to boxers. Somehow I don't think that is worthy of an announcement either. :-) :-) Heh what a great alternative way to ay what I replied in another post. Good riddance, good luck, but most important: who cares?. :) FC -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 4:36 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote: On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 19:08, Patrick Bartekbartek...@yahoo.com wrote: It's been a nice ride these past 7 years with Fedora as my primary OS, but it's time to move on. This reminds me of OS/2 users on oS/2 maling list who often decided that not only they had to change OS, they had to write a long tirade telling others why they decided to leave, and why their once-favorite OS was doomed. The funny thing is that OS/2 is still in use, it has not died and IBM no longer has technical control over it. If IBM had not abandoned the SOHO environment, I would still be using it today. Could not and still cannot find anything as bullet proof. I ran a BBS on it that had an uptime messured in YEARS. Cannot say that for Linux/UNIX/MacOSX. However, I have found the desktop wars amusing to say the least. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 20:14, Ed Greshko ed.gres...@greshko.com wrote: I've recently switched from briefs to boxers. Somehow I don't think that is worthy of an announcement either. :-) :-) Heh what a great alternative way to ay what I replied in another post. Good riddance, good luck, but most important: who cares?. :) The people who create distributions should care. Both about who adopts their distribution and why and about who abandons it and why. John -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 3:36 PM, Andras Simon wrote: On 6/13/11, Patrick Bartekbartek...@yahoo.com wrote: [...] Considered XFCE and LXDE instead, but decided the best option was to abandon the Desktop GUI environment all-together in favor of a well-featured window manager, simple launch bar for most used apps, floating menus for the others, and a terminal or two. I don't really need all the other crap. Not even 3D. Welcome to the club :-) I never understood what these desktop environments give mankind that a window manager doesn't. Soapbox drug out of the corner, and James steps up on it Give you a wonderful clue. Look at DOS/Windows 3.1 and then look at WindowsNT. That is what most users are looking for. They don't care about the command line and really don't want to even mess with it. For those of use 'smart' enough to figure our way around the CLI, we are either considered: 1. Geniuses. 2. Snobs. 3. Arrogant bastards who want the days of the 'Green Door' to come back. Most of the people that I work with are Computer Scientists or Computer Engineers. We are constantly answering questions and most people consider us either 1 or 2. However, if you go out and read the other Linuxes forums you will find a group that is slowly but surely calling us, with increasingly poor wording, number 3. The thing is, either you embrace change and adapt to it or you will be crushed. I'll give you a really good example that most of us live with today: Airbags in your automobile. When they were introduced by Mercedes Benz in their 1973 autos, they were considered a death device and were actually banned from sale in the United States. Today, try buying an auto, in most countries without one. Good luck. They are now required in the United States for all passenger type vehicles. This is the same with the desktop system. Either we can embrace and learn how they work and how to work around them, or we can sit there and watch what happens. I, for one, embrace a technology that gives people with less skills the ability to use a superior operating system. Linux can either be the OS/2 of the computing world or the replacement for Microsoft's Windows products. Which do YOU want? I want the latter. I want people to use, with ease, a vastly better OS. We, the community have to be willing to assist those who want that goal. And remember, we have variety. We can CHOOSE to use Gnome3, KDE 4, XFCE or a number of frontends. If we want, we don't have to use ANY of them. That is called convenience, and I like that. Soupbox off Folks, we can discuss this to the end. The decision has been made, for us by others, that the desktop will move into the 21st Century. Our thoughts, comments and other such are not even under consideration. In other words, we are wasting our time even talking about it. The best use of our time is to find and report problems that will affect those who do not have the skills we do. We can choose to use other desktop/windowing systems and be happy. All of the grumbling I've read did not and cannot stop RedHat from adopting Gnome 3 or KDE 4 as the primary desktop for Fedora and RHEL. That is and will remain a fact of life. If you feel otherwise, that is your feeling/opinion. Have a great life. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 4:58 PM, inode0 wrote: On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Fernando Cassiafcas...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 20:14, Ed Greshkoed.gres...@greshko.com wrote: I've recently switched from briefs to boxers. Somehow I don't think that is worthy of an announcement either. :-) :-) Heh what a great alternative way to ay what I replied in another post. Good riddance, good luck, but most important: who cares?. :) The people who create distributions should care. Both about who adopts their distribution and why and about who abandons it and why. John: Read my lengthy post. Most, if not all, Linux distributions are FREE. If I abandon a distribution because they adopted a desktop that will bring in 100 for 1, I really am not going to care why you left. If it were more like 2 to 1 or 4 to 1, I might. The goal is to capture folks who are tired of the claptrap and garbage from our competitors. We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. That is the goal of the two major desktop projects. I for one applaud their efforts. Remember they have to work around legal requirements that we don't have to deal with. One day, I will install CentOS 6 on one of the Macs that I have here and then continue computing, which is what I like doing. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. When you run pretty much any flavor of any new and improved, super wizz-bang, this time we'll capture the desktop for sure, linux interface, you are confronted with anything from a maze of meaningless icons (none of which resemble a help button :-), to maybe just a vast expanse of empty space that leaves you equally clueless. As long as Windows has the Hey! Get your clues here! attitude and Linux has the Our awesome designers have better things to do than provide documentation. attitude, the Linux designers will continue to remain puzzled by why the masses aren't flocking to their clearly superior works of intellectual brilliance. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD -- David -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/13/2011 08:48 AM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. When you run pretty much any flavor of any new and improved, super wizz-bang, this time we'll capture the desktop for sure, linux interface, you are confronted with anything from a maze of meaningless icons (none of which resemble a help button :-), to maybe just a vast expanse of empty space that leaves you equally clueless. As long as Windows has the Hey! Get your clues here! attitude and Linux has the Our awesome designers have better things to do than provide documentation. attitude, the Linux designers will continue to remain puzzled by why the masses aren't flocking to their clearly superior works of intellectual brilliance. I haven't run MS-Windows for the first time in a long time. So, I don't know what it may or may not offer. However, what you've said seems (at least to me) to be confusing and contradictory. You seem to be saying that what Windows does is incessant and annoying. Those would seem to be attributes Linux should strive to avoid. But, it seems that you are advocating that approach since you seem to be saying that what they do is a form of documentation lacking in Linux that keeps people from discovering Linux desktops. For something like GNOME 3, would a pointer to http://library.gnome.org/ be something that should be presented the first time a user accesses their GNOME 3 desktop? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 6:36 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD No, truth. When you run Linux for the first time, does it have a built-in take you step by step tutorial? I've never been 'badgered' by one. Remember, the key is Lowest Common Denominator (LCD). If you hit that, then you've pissed off the upper levels, but as one I just dismiss it and go about my business. This is one of those areas that Linux desktop designers could learn from their Windows and MacOSX counterparts. I've been down this road before and I don't want the flames that are coming back. Not everyone is a 'genius' and not everyone can understand what each icon does. Remember, Einstein could not make change nor did he understand the monetary system, but he still managed to buy his groceries, when they were not bought for him. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 6:54 PM, Ed Greshko wrote: On 06/13/2011 08:48 AM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. When you run pretty much any flavor of any new and improved, super wizz-bang, this time we'll capture the desktop for sure, linux interface, you are confronted with anything from a maze of meaningless icons (none of which resemble a help button :-), to maybe just a vast expanse of empty space that leaves you equally clueless. As long as Windows has the Hey! Get your clues here! attitude and Linux has the Our awesome designers have better things to do than provide documentation. attitude, the Linux designers will continue to remain puzzled by why the masses aren't flocking to their clearly superior works of intellectual brilliance. I haven't run MS-Windows for the first time in a long time. So, I don't know what it may or may not offer. However, what you've said seems (at least to me) to be confusing and contradictory. You seem to be saying that what Windows does is incessant and annoying. Those would seem to be attributes Linux should strive to avoid. But, it seems that you are advocating that approach since you seem to be saying that what they do is a form of documentation lacking in Linux that keeps people from discovering Linux desktops. For something like GNOME 3, would a pointer to http://library.gnome.org/ be something that should be presented the first time a user accesses their GNOME 3 desktop? Good start, Ed. Maybe a short tutorial that can be dismissed by those of us that know how the thing works would be better. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:07:10 -0700 James McKenzie jjmckenzi...@gmail.com wrote: snip all, not worth reading again The last comment comes from a OSX Mac user. if I recall, you can only re-size the windows using the bottom left side on Mac, not to confuse the user-base=BIG ego, poor skills. And then the lecture goes on: if you don't follow the cheeps, you will get crushed?! - Says how? Jobs or Ballmer? -- nomnex nom...@gmail.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/2011 10:06 PM, James McKenzie wrote: On 6/12/11 6:36 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD No, truth. When you run Linux for the first time, does it have a built-in take you step by step tutorial? I've never been 'badgered' by one. Remember, the key is Lowest Common Denominator (LCD). If you hit that, then you've pissed off the upper levels, but as one I just dismiss it and go about my business. This is one of those areas that Linux desktop designers could learn from their Windows and MacOSX counterparts. I've been down this road before and I don't want the flames that are coming back. Not everyone is a 'genius' and not everyone can understand what each icon does. Remember, Einstein could not make change nor did he understand the monetary system, but he still managed to buy his groceries, when they were not bought for him. I said FUD instead of bull$hit because Windows does not do what he said. So what are you trying to say? -- David -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/12/2011 03:08 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: It's been a nice ride these past 7 years with Fedora as my primary OS, but it's time to move on. My current and future needs are for a support life measured in years, not months. And CentOS and Scientific Linux didn't fulfill my other requirements. Neither did the Rolling Release distros: At some point, support for older hardware must be dropped to make way for new, and the old system breaks. I can't have that. So, with the release of 15 (I'm still using 12), which would have traditionally been my next upgrade, my decision was finalized. GNOME 3 was really what did it. After using it for a while to get familiar with it, I decided I just didn't like it. And KDE is still a resource gluten--the primary reason I left it years ago. Considered XFCE and LXDE instead, but decided the best option was to abandon the Desktop GUI environment all-together in favor of a well-featured window manager, simple launch bar for most used apps, floating menus for the others, and a terminal or two. I don't really need all the other crap. Not even 3D. My primary choice is Debian 6, 64-bit, and Openbox. I've been testing both in VirtualBox for a few months. So far, so good. I'll still keep an eye on Fedora for old time's sake. And 12 will stay on the system as a back up. So, it's not exactly farewell, just . . . Auf Wiedersehen, B As was stated in a recent response on this list, Fedora is always in test mode, so will always change rapidly. You will find that Debian uses very old releases of kernel and user apps and libs, thus much of the new advances are not available for it from it's vanilla repos. Also, if you are looking for support over many years, are you sure that it is actively supported and new bugs fixed in this release version you have chosen? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Sun June 12 2011, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD I disagree. He makes a very valid point. New installs of Windows always come up with a tutorial and helper app. I have never seen anything like that on Linux. It's as if the developers are too busy with programming the next iteration of their favorite app to be bothered with documentation, and NO ONE has yet come up with a grand-unified help document (trust me man $appname doesn't always work...) -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 7:08 PM, nomnex wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:07:10 -0700 James McKenziejjmckenzi...@gmail.com wrote: snip all, not worth reading again The last comment comes from a OSX Mac user. if I recall, you can only re-size the windows using the bottom left side on Mac, not to confuse the user-base=BIG ego, poor skills. I've been using computers since the 1970s. Hollerith cards, JCL and the whole bunch. Again, the big breakthrough for home computer ownership was and remains Windows95. Not Linux, not MacOSX, but a cobbled together Piece of Bovine Excrement. But it brought the masses to computing. Linux, although much superior, has a major problem and that is the UI. The 'best' UI out there at present is MacOSX. And I don't just say that because I use one, its because just about everyone out there is trying to imitate it. If you are trying to copy Windows7, you are trying to copy the functionality of MacOSX Aqua. It is simple and basically hides most functions most users will never want to touch and in most cases, should not touch. And then the lecture goes on: if you don't follow the cheeps, you will get crushed?! - Says how? Jobs or Ballmer? Neither. Try Nash. Yes, the Economics professor from Princeton. Marketing is what is it is all about. You could make the best gizmo in the business, but if you cannot get folks to use it, you just wasted your time and alot of someone else's money. This happened with OS/2 when Microsoft introduced WindowsNT 3.1. This is also the beginnings of the Wine project back in the mid-1990s. If Linux were the leader, rather than the follower, we would not be in this state, correct? I see Gnome3 and KDE4 as an attempt to lure Windows users to the Linux flock. I hope they succeed. Those people need a better OS than one riddled with security holes and that has difficulties running more than 24 hours. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 7:17 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 10:06 PM, James McKenzie wrote: On 6/12/11 6:36 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD No, truth. When you run Linux for the first time, does it have a built-in take you step by step tutorial? I've never been 'badgered' by one. Remember, the key is Lowest Common Denominator (LCD). If you hit that, then you've pissed off the upper levels, but as one I just dismiss it and go about my business. This is one of those areas that Linux desktop designers could learn from their Windows and MacOSX counterparts. I've been down this road before and I don't want the flames that are coming back. Not everyone is a 'genius' and not everyone can understand what each icon does. Remember, Einstein could not make change nor did he understand the monetary system, but he still managed to buy his groceries, when they were not bought for him. I said FUD instead of bull$hit because Windows does not do what he said. So what are you trying to say? I've installed XP, Vista and Seven. All of them start with a tour of the operating system. Even Windows Server 2003/2008 has the Manage Your Server window that comes up. When I start XP/Vista/Seven for the first time, there is a 'Would You Like to Take a Tour item that shows up. Does Linux do the same thing? Last time I started up Gnome, it did not. That is what I'm trying to say. My Mac had a very nice introduction and really fancy setup system. I did not find such a thing when I installed Fedora 13 on my Thinkpad. Remember, the system has to be really easy. Linux has not. The phrase Linux has friends, it is just picky as to who they are is not where we need to be if Linux is to grow on the Workstation desktop. I know there are folks who don't care, but there are only so many servers in the world and Linux is presently the winner in that category but is slipping. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 11:22 AM, John Aldrich jmaldr...@yahoo.com wrote: On Sun June 12 2011, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD I disagree. He makes a very valid point. New installs of Windows always come up with a tutorial and helper app. I have never seen anything like that on Linux. It's as if the developers are too busy with programming the next iteration of their favorite app to be bothered with documentation, and NO ONE has yet come up with a grand-unified help document (trust me man $appname doesn't always work...) Seriously? You aren't really trying to argue the point that windows has better documentation than GNU/Linux. That and the *goal* shouldn't be who has the most users. The *goal* should be a desktop that does what the user base needs it to do. The GNU/Linux user communities need to stop this nonsense of trying to compete with Windows and/or OS X. Instead we should be focusing on building an operating system that works for the existing user base. If its good other people *will* learn it. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 7:20 PM, JD wrote: On 06/12/2011 03:08 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: It's been a nice ride these past 7 years with Fedora as my primary OS, but it's time to move on. My current and future needs are for a support life measured in years, not months. And CentOS and Scientific Linux didn't fulfill my other requirements. Neither did the Rolling Release distros: At some point, support for older hardware must be dropped to make way for new, and the old system breaks. I can't have that. So, with the release of 15 (I'm still using 12), which would have traditionally been my next upgrade, my decision was finalized. GNOME 3 was really what did it. After using it for a while to get familiar with it, I decided I just didn't like it. And KDE is still a resource gluten--the primary reason I left it years ago. Considered XFCE and LXDE instead, but decided the best option was to abandon the Desktop GUI environment all-together in favor of a well-featured window manager, simple launch bar for most used apps, floating menus for the others, and a terminal or two. I don't really need all the other crap. Not even 3D. My primary choice is Debian 6, 64-bit, and Openbox. I've been testing both in VirtualBox for a few months. So far, so good. I'll still keep an eye on Fedora for old time's sake. And 12 will stay on the system as a back up. So, it's not exactly farewell, just . . . Auf Wiedersehen, B As was stated in a recent response on this list, Fedora is always in test mode, so will always change rapidly. You will find that Debian uses very old releases of kernel and user apps and libs, thus much of the new advances are not available for it from it's vanilla repos. Also, if you are looking for support over many years, are you sure that it is actively supported and new bugs fixed in this release version you have chosen? Squeeze (Debian six) was just recently released and they still support Debian four. Much like RedHat has a ten year policy that they will support. RedHat is still supporting RHEL 4 for some companies that cannot or will not move to RH 5. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/2011 10:22 PM, John Aldrich wrote: On Sun June 12 2011, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD I disagree. He makes a very valid point. New installs of Windows always come up with a tutorial and helper app. I have never seen anything like that on Linux. It's as if the developers are too busy with programming the next iteration of their favorite app to be bothered with documentation, and NO ONE has yet come up with a grand-unified help document (trust me man $appname doesn't always work...) Really? Seriously? What New installs of Windows of Windows are you referring to? None that I have seen do this. Version numbers of Windows? Dates of install? I can't think of any. What helper apps are you referring to here? Applications names? Version numbers of those applications? Again none that I have seen do this. Other than 'Mr Clippy' from Microsoft Office that is. And he went away some time ago. Still FUD without this missing information that you refer to here. -- David -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/2011 10:31 PM, James McKenzie wrote: On 6/12/11 7:17 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 10:06 PM, James McKenzie wrote: On 6/12/11 6:36 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD No, truth. When you run Linux for the first time, does it have a built-in take you step by step tutorial? I've never been 'badgered' by one. Remember, the key is Lowest Common Denominator (LCD). If you hit that, then you've pissed off the upper levels, but as one I just dismiss it and go about my business. This is one of those areas that Linux desktop designers could learn from their Windows and MacOSX counterparts. I've been down this road before and I don't want the flames that are coming back. Not everyone is a 'genius' and not everyone can understand what each icon does. Remember, Einstein could not make change nor did he understand the monetary system, but he still managed to buy his groceries, when they were not bought for him. I said FUD instead of bull$hit because Windows does not do what he said. So what are you trying to say? I've installed XP, Vista and Seven. All of them start with a tour of the operating system. Even Windows Server 2003/2008 has the Manage Your Server window that comes up. When I start XP/Vista/Seven for the first time, there is a 'Would You Like to Take a Tour item that shows up. Does Linux do the same thing? Last time I started up Gnome, it did not. That is what I'm trying to say. My Mac had a very nice introduction and really fancy setup system. I did not find such a thing when I installed Fedora 13 on my Thinkpad. Remember, the system has to be really easy. Linux has not. The phrase Linux has friends, it is just picky as to who they are is not where we need to be if Linux is to grow on the Workstation desktop. I know there are folks who don't care, but there are only so many servers in the world and Linux is presently the winner in that category but is slipping. James McKenzie James. Now I am confused. Are you saying that Linux *should* have a tutorial? Linux has always been the geek OS. And the directions have always been written in Geek for Geeks. -- David -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 7:30 PM, Stephen Bunn wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 11:22 AM, John Aldrich jmaldr...@yahoo.com mailto:jmaldr...@yahoo.com wrote: On Sun June 12 2011, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD I disagree. He makes a very valid point. New installs of Windows always come up with a tutorial and helper app. I have never seen anything like that on Linux. It's as if the developers are too busy with programming the next iteration of their favorite app to be bothered with documentation, and NO ONE has yet come up with a grand-unified help document (trust me man $appname doesn't always work...) Seriously? You aren't really trying to argue the point that windows has better documentation than GNU/Linux. That and the *goal* shouldn't be who has the most users. The *goal* should be a desktop that does what the user base needs it to do. So, we should deliberately make the system hard to use so that people like you can 'rub their noses in it'. No. Sorry, but the user base needs to grow. People are tired of using poor quality software written to a broken OS. However, Linux is appropriately though of as being a 'genius' operating system. Until we move it from that position, people will 'stay away'. Ubuntu was an attempt to move Linux to the masses. Given the current state of the UI, this became harder and harder. With a new UI, this may become easier. And for those of us 'power users' the bells and whistles are still there. You just have to change the way you do things. And on a Mac, root still exists, it just takes six steps to enable it. The GNU/Linux user communities need to stop this nonsense of trying to compete with Windows and/or OS X. Then what should they do? Stand around the coffee machine saying I have this wonderful Operating System, but no one will use it because the UI sucks? No. They need to move forward and develop a UI that EVERYONE can understand and use. Instead we should be focusing on building an operating system that works for the existing user base. If its good other people *will* learn it. If that were true, everyone would be using OS/2 today. For its time, it was the best operating system. It was bullet-proof and was used in both the banking and nuclear industries. Tell me of one bank today that is using it on their teller machines? Bank of America was the last major bank that received an exception from the U.S. Federal Reserve to put WindowsXP on their teller machines. You can build the best mousetrap, but I'll still go to the local hardware store and buy a mousetrap that was patented in the 1800s and is made by the Victory Trap company. Why? Because the damn thing works. And that is what a majority of the Desktop users want. They don't care if they have to hit the 'Big Red Button' two or three times a day. When the thing starts, they want to use it. Not play with it all day. And that is why Windows sells and Linux doesn't. Sad to say, but Gnome3 may be the step in the right direction for the 'common ordinary user'. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 7:37 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 10:22 PM, John Aldrich wrote: On Sun June 12 2011, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD I disagree. He makes a very valid point. New installs of Windows always come up with a tutorial and helper app. I have never seen anything like that on Linux. It's as if the developers are too busy with programming the next iteration of their favorite app to be bothered with documentation, and NO ONE has yet come up with a grand-unified help document (trust me man $appname doesn't always work...) Really? Seriously? What New installs of Windows of Windows are you referring to? None that I have seen do this. Version numbers of Windows? Dates of install? I can't think of any. WindowsXP and recently Windows Vista installed from media that was produced by Microsoft that you can buy at places like Staples.com. The operating system even gives you at tour when you start it. And if you need to go back to it, it's there for you. Now for the programs, there is this thing called pushing the F1 key. It brings up a help system. I know that OpenOffice.org's was a joke and most other Linux programs do this thing called 'read the man page'. Interesting. Get the man page for something like tar. Simple program and the document is confusing at best. Love info pages too. Would love to see something like hypertexted documentation. And you can purchase video tapes for Windows and Office, if you really, really need them. Office's help is on-line. Still have to find that for OpenOffice. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 7:42 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 10:31 PM, James McKenzie wrote: On 6/12/11 7:17 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 10:06 PM, James McKenzie wrote: On 6/12/11 6:36 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD No, truth. When you run Linux for the first time, does it have a built-in take you step by step tutorial? I've never been 'badgered' by one. Remember, the key is Lowest Common Denominator (LCD). If you hit that, then you've pissed off the upper levels, but as one I just dismiss it and go about my business. This is one of those areas that Linux desktop designers could learn from their Windows and MacOSX counterparts. I've been down this road before and I don't want the flames that are coming back. Not everyone is a 'genius' and not everyone can understand what each icon does. Remember, Einstein could not make change nor did he understand the monetary system, but he still managed to buy his groceries, when they were not bought for him. I said FUD instead of bull$hit because Windows does not do what he said. So what are you trying to say? I've installed XP, Vista and Seven. All of them start with a tour of the operating system. Even Windows Server 2003/2008 has the Manage Your Server window that comes up. When I start XP/Vista/Seven for the first time, there is a 'Would You Like to Take a Tour item that shows up. Does Linux do the same thing? Last time I started up Gnome, it did not. That is what I'm trying to say. My Mac had a very nice introduction and really fancy setup system. I did not find such a thing when I installed Fedora 13 on my Thinkpad. Remember, the system has to be really easy. Linux has not. The phrase Linux has friends, it is just picky as to who they are is not where we need to be if Linux is to grow on the Workstation desktop. I know there are folks who don't care, but there are only so many servers in the world and Linux is presently the winner in that category but is slipping. James McKenzie James. Now I am confused. Are you saying that Linux *should* have a tutorial? Linux has always been the geek OS. And the directions have always been written in Geek for Geeks. Yes. To grow the desktop, we need to start embracing the common user. There are a limited number of geeks and they cannot sustain Linux. Not at a financially viable level... I would love to see the folks in Redmond squirm. Windows has so many problems that it should be banned from anywhere where reliability is key. Go to your local hospital and see what they are running. It scares me that they are running WindowsXP/Vista/Seven on the front end and WindowsServer on the back. I would, from a security viewpoint, love to see this replaced with Linux and running a secure UI program. This is easier on Linux than Windows... James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/2011 11:04 PM, James McKenzie wrote: On 6/12/11 7:42 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 10:31 PM, James McKenzie wrote: On 6/12/11 7:17 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 10:06 PM, James McKenzie wrote: On 6/12/11 6:36 PM, David wrote: On 6/12/2011 8:48 PM, Tom Horsley wrote: On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:20:39 -0700 James McKenzie wrote: We need to make Linux as easy, if not easier to use than the other 'junk' out there. When you run Windows for the first time, annoying tutorials badger you incessantly about learning how to use the Windows interface and/or adapting to changes made in the new version of Windows. FUD No, truth. When you run Linux for the first time, does it have a built-in take you step by step tutorial? I've never been 'badgered' by one. Remember, the key is Lowest Common Denominator (LCD). If you hit that, then you've pissed off the upper levels, but as one I just dismiss it and go about my business. This is one of those areas that Linux desktop designers could learn from their Windows and MacOSX counterparts. I've been down this road before and I don't want the flames that are coming back. Not everyone is a 'genius' and not everyone can understand what each icon does. Remember, Einstein could not make change nor did he understand the monetary system, but he still managed to buy his groceries, when they were not bought for him. I said FUD instead of bull$hit because Windows does not do what he said. So what are you trying to say? I've installed XP, Vista and Seven. All of them start with a tour of the operating system. Even Windows Server 2003/2008 has the Manage Your Server window that comes up. When I start XP/Vista/Seven for the first time, there is a 'Would You Like to Take a Tour item that shows up. Does Linux do the same thing? Last time I started up Gnome, it did not. That is what I'm trying to say. My Mac had a very nice introduction and really fancy setup system. I did not find such a thing when I installed Fedora 13 on my Thinkpad. Remember, the system has to be really easy. Linux has not. The phrase Linux has friends, it is just picky as to who they are is not where we need to be if Linux is to grow on the Workstation desktop. I know there are folks who don't care, but there are only so many servers in the world and Linux is presently the winner in that category but is slipping. James McKenzie James. Now I am confused. Are you saying that Linux *should* have a tutorial? Linux has always been the geek OS. And the directions have always been written in Geek for Geeks. Yes. To grow the desktop, we need to start embracing the common user. There are a limited number of geeks and they cannot sustain Linux. Not at a financially viable level... I would love to see the folks in Redmond squirm. Windows has so many problems that it should be banned from anywhere where reliability is key. Go to your local hospital and see what they are running. It scares me that they are running WindowsXP/Vista/Seven on the front end and WindowsServer on the back. I would, from a security viewpoint, love to see this replaced with Linux and running a secure UI program. This is easier on Linux than Windows... I see. Now I understand you completely. Since Linux is user supported. I am sure that the developers would welcome any tutorials that you would write and provide. That is the way the Linux works. As for the folks in Redmond? I doubt that they will loose a minute of sleep over your efforts unless you really, really put forth major efforts in this respect. Have a good day. -- David -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/12/2011 10:26 PM, James McKenzie wrote: Marketing is what is it is all about. You could make the best gizmo in the business, but if you cannot get folks to use it, you just wasted your time and alot of someone else's money. This happened with OS/2 when Microsoft introduced WindowsNT 3.1. Marketing is great - we all agree - problem is there is a different between marketing a useful, clean wonderful tool and a smelly pile of annoying poo ... From user feedback so far - F15 with Gnome shell and quite a bit of brokenness associated with the introduction of systemd may not be (is not?) ready to market. Change for change sake, of course, is a slow path to where you were last time you turned around ... :-) I do have high hopes for F16 - tho many seem to fear that systemd may not get the love it needs for such a core component - I am hopeful it will ... F15 is pretty much a beta at the moment - lets hope F16 will be marketable ..so you marketing types can really go to town! -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 6/12/11 8:15 PM, Genes MailLists wrote: On 06/12/2011 10:26 PM, James McKenzie wrote: Marketing is what is it is all about. You could make the best gizmo in the business, but if you cannot get folks to use it, you just wasted your time and alot of someone else's money. This happened with OS/2 when Microsoft introduced WindowsNT 3.1. Marketing is great - we all agree - problem is there is a different between marketing a useful, clean wonderful tool and a smelly pile of annoying poo ... From user feedback so far - F15 with Gnome shell and quite a bit of brokenness associated with the introduction of systemd may not be (is not?) ready to market. I will agree that systemd is seriously broken. I don't get the connection between it and the UI, Gnome3. Does Gnome3 need/desire systemd? If so, then it is not ready for market. It is not nice to force users to go from one broken OS to another...(Vista non-withstanding, it is a pile of concentrated dog-poo of the ME variety only higher.) Change for change sake, of course, is a slow path to where you were last time you turned around ... :-) Change should be a good thing, and well thought out and superbly executed. And Fedora is and will remain a testing ground for 'things RedHat, in the future'. I'm glad that this was caught at this level and not by production users. I do have high hopes for F16 - tho many seem to fear that systemd may not get the love it needs for such a core component - I am hopeful it will ... And if it is needed, it must receive much 'love' from what I read here in the User's list. I don't expect to see much from Fedora 15 for at least another year or so. Maybe Gnome3 will be added to RHEL 6.2, but that is a ways off. James McKenzie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 12/06/2011 11:12 PM, David wrote: I see. Now I understand you completely. Since Linux is user supported. I am sure that the developers would welcome any tutorials that you would write and provide. That is the way the Linux works. As for the folks in Redmond? I doubt that they will loose a minute of sleep over your efforts unless you really, really put forth major efforts in this respect. Have a good day. James, No point in arguing with this guy. This *is* the reason why linux in general is the state in which you describe. Responses like his only further prove your points. It's too bad that there are way more David's out there than those like you who have valid arguments for what you were describing. If one gets this kind of reaction for merely suggesting something helpful to bring more into the fold, then it is really no wonder. With attitudes like this, noobs would be scared to ask questions for fear of flames and or RTFM type answers. This elitist type of attitude is something I have always despised but seems to run pretty big in the linux community. If you do not agree with me then you are wrong. If you don't know as much as me then you're dumb and what you say doesn't matter. Just my 2 cents, Phil -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Re: Adieu, Fedora
On 06/13/2011 09:26 AM, James McKenzie wrote: I don't expect to see much from Fedora 15 for at least another year or so. Maybe Gnome3 will be added to RHEL 6.2, but that is a ways off. Umm. No., RHEL 7 will be the earliest that GNOME 3.x will be included. Neither RHEL nor Fedora will update GNOME beyond bug and security fixes for an existing release. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
