Re: Top-posting & list guidelines (was: alternative to skype)

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2018-05-17 at 10:32 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Wed, 2018-03-21 at 12:02 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> > > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2018-03-20 at 22:20 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> > > > > With the move to mailman3, the list footer cannot be set via
> > > > > the web-based admin interface.  I dug into the mailman3
> > > > > documentation and filed an infrastructure ticket to see
> > > > > about adding guidelines link back to the list footer for
> > > > > this list.
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/6794
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks. I tried to bring this up recently (in the thread at:
> > > > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/EP7DQ36TJB5G3KGV4FPUQ7D6TKOF24NV/
> > > > but nothing happened.
> > > 
> > > Ahh.  I happened to be traveling at that time and wasn't
> > > following the list closely.  Generally, anything that needs
> > > the attention of a list admin should get sent to the
> > > users-owner address.  Otherwise it's likely to simply fall
> > > through the cracks. :)
> > 
> > I guess, though one of the admins did take part.
> > 
> > > > I'd also like to suggest an explicit URL for the list
> > > > archive in the message footer, which did used to be there.
> > > > I know it's in the message headers, but these aren't
> > > > clickable in many MUAs.
> > > 
> > > Yep.  The discussion in the ticket I filed includes a
> > > suggestion (and example text) for adding the archive link to
> > > the footer.  So it's likely that will be added when that
> > > ticket is addressed.
> > 
> > Here's hoping.
> 
> Following up on an old item, I'm pleased to say there is now
> a customized list footer for all Fedora lists (not just this
> list).  This is thanks to the combined effort of a few folks
> on the Fedora Infrastructure team (Kevin Fenzi and Aurélien
> Bompard).  There were a few change freezes and other work
> which took precedence.  But this change was not forgotten.
> 
> One minor things we're likely to adjust is that the list
> archives link points to the URL of the message being sent
> rather than the generic archive URL.  (Both links are in the
> headers as "Archived-At:" and "List-Archives:" for anyone
> curious.)

Thanks Todd and others, much appreciated.

BTW it's "List-Archive:" not "List-Archives:", but whatever.

poc
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines (was: alternative to skype)

[Todd Zullinger]

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-03-21 at 12:02 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
>> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>>> On Tue, 2018-03-20 at 22:20 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
 With the move to mailman3, the list footer cannot be set via
 the web-based admin interface.  I dug into the mailman3
 documentation and filed an infrastructure ticket to see
 about adding guidelines link back to the list footer for
 this list.
 
 https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/6794
>>> 
>>> Thanks. I tried to bring this up recently (in the thread at:
>>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/EP7DQ36TJB5G3KGV4FPUQ7D6TKOF24NV/
>>> but nothing happened.
>> 
>> Ahh.  I happened to be traveling at that time and wasn't
>> following the list closely.  Generally, anything that needs
>> the attention of a list admin should get sent to the
>> users-owner address.  Otherwise it's likely to simply fall
>> through the cracks. :)
> 
> I guess, though one of the admins did take part.
> 
>>> I'd also like to suggest an explicit URL for the list
>>> archive in the message footer, which did used to be there.
>>> I know it's in the message headers, but these aren't
>>> clickable in many MUAs.
>> 
>> Yep.  The discussion in the ticket I filed includes a
>> suggestion (and example text) for adding the archive link to
>> the footer.  So it's likely that will be added when that
>> ticket is addressed.
> 
> Here's hoping.

Following up on an old item, I'm pleased to say there is now
a customized list footer for all Fedora lists (not just this
list).  This is thanks to the combined effort of a few folks
on the Fedora Infrastructure team (Kevin Fenzi and Aurélien
Bompard).  There were a few change freezes and other work
which took precedence.  But this change was not forgotten.

One minor things we're likely to adjust is that the list
archives link points to the URL of the message being sent
rather than the generic archive URL.  (Both links are in the
headers as "Archived-At:" and "List-Archives:" for anyone
curious.)

-- 
Todd
~~
Most economic fallacies derive - from the tendency to assume that
there is a fixed pie, that one party can gain only at the expense of
another
-- Milton Friedman



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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 20:29:27 -0700
Dave Stevens  wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 17:07:01 -0700
> Samuel Sieb  wrote:
> 
> > On 03/20/2018 07:49 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:  
  
> > > 
> > > yes, in my client I highlight a point as I've done here then hit
> > > reply and get no cruft and just the point I want to discuss. Claws
> > > mail. (if it's good enough for Richard Stallman it's good enough
> > > for me!)
> > 
> > The problem with that is demonstrated by your example.  The quoting
> > is somewhat incorrect or at least misleading.  The quote heading says
> > "Todd ...", but the quote was actually something that Todd quoted.  I
> > do note that there is an extra level of quote markers, so someone
> > could realize that, but it's not obvious and there's no indication
> > who was being quoted. _  
> 
> 
> yes, that's right, I was only concerned about the reply-to-a-point
> issue.

The rub might lie in a missing capability to select multiple
separate regions in some MUA: with ctrl- I can
do such selections easily on a web page in firefox, but not in
Evolution and Claws Mail ..  But maybe I simple missed the
correct key combo for the MUAs ..

-- 
Wolfgang Pfeiffer
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Top-posting & list guidelines (was Re: alternative to skype)

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sun, 2018-03-25 at 14:17 +, chicago wrote:

> Don't quote the entire email. In fact, don't quote anything at all when you 
> reply. On k-9 mail there's a little x button (in the default config) that I 
> can click to get rid of all the quotes text. 

No, *do* quote the part you are commenting on. It makes no sense to
omit this. Of course it's all there in the archives but making your
readers open a browser just to get the context of what you are talking
about is poor practice.

I note that posts via HyperKitty seem to do this but don't know if
that's the way it works by default. If so it's a bug and should be
fixed.

poc
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines

[Dave Stevens]

On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 17:07:01 -0700
Samuel Sieb  wrote:

> On 03/20/2018 07:49 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 22:29:29 -0400
> > Todd Zullinger  wrote:
> >   
> >>> If there's something you're replying to in particular,
> >>> maybe quote that one line but there's no need to quote the
> >>> entire thread so far in every email in the thread.  
> > 
> > yes, in my client I highlight a point as I've done here then hit
> > reply and get no cruft and just the point I want to discuss. Claws
> > mail. (if it's good enough for Richard Stallman it's good enough
> > for me!)  
> 
> The problem with that is demonstrated by your example.  The quoting
> is somewhat incorrect or at least misleading.  The quote heading says
> "Todd ...", but the quote was actually something that Todd quoted.  I
> do note that there is an extra level of quote markers, so someone
> could realize that, but it's not obvious and there's no indication
> who was being quoted. _


yes, that's right, I was only concerned about the reply-to-a-point
issue.

Dave
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines

[Samuel Sieb]

On 03/21/2018 11:47 AM, chicago wrote:

yes, in my client I highlight a point as I've done here then hit
reply

and get no cruft and just the point I want to discuss. Claws mail.

(if

it's good enough for Richard Stallman it's good enough for me!)


Same in Evolution. In fact even the Gmail web client used to do this
when properly configured


I was kind of afraid everyone would yell at me but I'm very pleasantly 
surprised. Thank you!


It is helpful though if you leave the quote attributions intact...
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines

[Samuel Sieb]

On 03/20/2018 07:49 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 22:29:29 -0400
Todd Zullinger  wrote:


If there's something you're replying to in particular,
maybe quote that one line but there's no need to quote the
entire thread so far in every email in the thread.


yes, in my client I highlight a point as I've done here then hit reply
and get no cruft and just the point I want to discuss. Claws mail. (if
it's good enough for Richard Stallman it's good enough for me!)


The problem with that is demonstrated by your example.  The quoting is 
somewhat incorrect or at least misleading.  The quote heading says "Todd 
...", but the quote was actually something that Todd quoted.  I do note 
that there is an extra level of quote markers, so someone could realize 
that, but it's not obvious and there's no indication who was being quoted.

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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines

[Federico Bruni]

Il giorno gio 22 mar 2018 alle 0:47, Richard England 
<"pdx.limey"@gmail.com> ha scritto:

On 03/21/2018 02:02 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Same in Evolution. In fact even the Gmail web client used to do this
when properly configured, but Google seem to have broken it now.


Same in Thunberbird.



Same in Geary. (well, not in current master for me.. the project moved 
from Cmake to Meson recently and this is the most annoying regression, 
not fixed yet)


Gmail used to have an extensione which allowed "selective reply", but 
they dropped it:

https://www.lifewire.com/how-to-reply-quoting-only-highlighted-text-in-gmail-1172095


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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On 21 March 2018 at 23:49, Richard Shaw  wrote:

> On 03/21/2018 02:02 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>>
>>> Same in Evolution. In fact even the Gmail web client used to do this
>>> when properly configured, but Google seem to have broken it now.
>>
>>
> It's a bit of a pain in gmail but I've gotten used to it. After clicking
> reply I use Ctl-A which expands the previous message, Ctl-Home to cancel
> out the select all, and then Delete twice to bring the last message to the
> top and then edit/trim as usual.
>

(Trying this from Gmail). Interesting, but that still doesn't allow
selective quoting in the reply, other than by manually deleting the
unwanted bits. The previous behaviour was to quote only the selected text,
as happens with the other MUAs mentioned.

poc
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines

[Richard Shaw]

>
> On 03/21/2018 02:02 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>
>> Same in Evolution. In fact even the Gmail web client used to do this
>> when properly configured, but Google seem to have broken it now.
>
>
It's a bit of a pain in gmail but I've gotten used to it. After clicking
reply I use Ctl-A which expands the previous message, Ctl-Home to cancel
out the select all, and then Delete twice to bring the last message to the
top and then edit/trim as usual.

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines

[Richard England]

On 03/21/2018 02:02 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Same in Evolution. In fact even the Gmail web client used to do this
when properly configured, but Google seem to have broken it now.


Same in Thunberbird.
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines (was: alternative to skype)

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 19:49:26 -0700
Dave Stevens  wrote:

> yes, in my client I highlight a point as I've done here then hit reply
> and get no cruft and just the point I want to discuss. Claws mail. (if
> it's good enough for Richard Stallman it's good enough for me!)

Wow - using Claws Mail since quite some time, but didn't even know
about the feature ... Thanks!
-- 
Wolfgang Pfeiffer
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines

[Rick Stevens]

On 03/21/2018 11:47 AM, chicago wrote:
>> yes, in my client I highlight a point as I've done here then hit
>> reply
>>> and get no cruft and just the point I want to discuss. Claws mail.
>> (if
>>> it's good enough for Richard Stallman it's good enough for me!)
>>
>> Same in Evolution. In fact even the Gmail web client used to do this
>> when properly configured
> 
> I was kind of afraid everyone would yell at me but I'm very pleasantly 
> surprised. Thank you! 

(tongue planted firmly in cheek)

We never yell here on the list. We just discuss things..sometimes
LOUDLY!

That being said, we have been known to occasionally cast doubts upon a
poster's ancestry, but that's different. :-p
--
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 22643734Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
-   "Yeah, but you're taking the universe out of context."   -
--
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines (was: alternative to skype)

[chicago]

> yes, in my client I highlight a point as I've done here then hit
>reply
>> and get no cruft and just the point I want to discuss. Claws mail.
>(if
>> it's good enough for Richard Stallman it's good enough for me!)
>
>Same in Evolution. In fact even the Gmail web client used to do this
>when properly configured

I was kind of afraid everyone would yell at me but I'm very pleasantly 
surprised. Thank you! 

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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines (was: alternative to skype)

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2018-03-21 at 12:02 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > On Tue, 2018-03-20 at 22:20 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> > > With the move to mailman3, the list footer cannot be set via
> > > the web-based admin interface.  I dug into the mailman3
> > > documentation and filed an infrastructure ticket to see
> > > about adding guidelines link back to the list footer for
> > > this list.
> > > 
> > > https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/6794
> > 
> > Thanks. I tried to bring this up recently (in the thread at:
> > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/EP7DQ36TJB5G3KGV4FPUQ7D6TKOF24NV/
> > but nothing happened.
> 
> Ahh.  I happened to be traveling at that time and wasn't
> following the list closely.  Generally, anything that needs
> the attention of a list admin should get sent to the
> users-owner address.  Otherwise it's likely to simply fall
> through the cracks. :)

I guess, though one of the admins did take part.

> > I'd also like to suggest an explicit URL for the list
> > archive in the message footer, which did used to be there.
> > I know it's in the message headers, but these aren't
> > clickable in many MUAs.
> 
> Yep.  The discussion in the ticket I filed includes a
> suggestion (and example text) for adding the archive link to
> the footer.  So it's likely that will be added when that
> ticket is addressed.

Here's hoping.

poc
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines (was: alternative to skype)

[Todd Zullinger]

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Tue, 2018-03-20 at 22:20 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
>> With the move to mailman3, the list footer cannot be set via
>> the web-based admin interface.  I dug into the mailman3
>> documentation and filed an infrastructure ticket to see
>> about adding guidelines link back to the list footer for
>> this list.
>> 
>> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/6794
> 
> Thanks. I tried to bring this up recently (in the thread at:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/EP7DQ36TJB5G3KGV4FPUQ7D6TKOF24NV/
> but nothing happened.

Ahh.  I happened to be traveling at that time and wasn't
following the list closely.  Generally, anything that needs
the attention of a list admin should get sent to the
users-owner address.  Otherwise it's likely to simply fall
through the cracks. :)

> I'd also like to suggest an explicit URL for the list
> archive in the message footer, which did used to be there.
> I know it's in the message headers, but these aren't
> clickable in many MUAs.

Yep.  The discussion in the ticket I filed includes a
suggestion (and example text) for adding the archive link to
the footer.  So it's likely that will be added when that
ticket is addressed.

-- 
Todd
~~
A fool's brain digests philosophy into folly, science into
superstition, and art into pedantry.  Hence University education.
-- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines (was: alternative to skype)

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2018-03-20 at 22:20 -0400, Todd Zullinger wrote:
> Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > Top-posting is specifically discouraged by the Guidelines
> > of this and other lists hosted by Fedora, not to mention
> > many other mailing lists of a technical nature. Please
> > read:
> > 
> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines#Proper_posting_style
> 
> This reminded me that we used to include a link to the
> guidelines in the list footer (and in the list welcome
> message).  Not everyone reads it no matter how often we may
> include it, but it surely helps raise awareness a little.
> 
> With the move to mailman3, the list footer cannot be set via
> the web-based admin interface.  I dug into the mailman3
> documentation and filed an infrastructure ticket to see
> about adding guidelines link back to the list footer for
> this list.
> 
> https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/6794

Thanks. I tried to bring this up recently (in the thread at:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/EP7DQ36TJB5G3KGV4FPUQ7D6TKOF24NV/
but nothing happened. You've gone the extra mile and looked into how it
can be done. I'd also like to suggest an explicit URL for the list
archive in the message footer, which did used to be there. I know it's
in the message headers, but these aren't clickable in many MUAs.

(I also think the new archive system is significantly less useful than
the old one, but that's a different topic).

poc
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines (was: alternative to skype)

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2018-03-20 at 19:49 -0700, Dave Stevens wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 22:29:29 -0400
> Todd Zullinger  wrote:
> 
> > > If there's something you're replying to in particular,
> > > maybe quote that one line but there's no need to quote the
> > > entire thread so far in every email in the thread.   
> 
> yes, in my client I highlight a point as I've done here then hit reply
> and get no cruft and just the point I want to discuss. Claws mail. (if
> it's good enough for Richard Stallman it's good enough for me!)

Same in Evolution. In fact even the Gmail web client used to do this
when properly configured, but Google seem to have broken it now.

poc
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Re: Top-posting & list guidelines (was: alternative to skype)

[Dave Stevens]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 22:29:29 -0400
Todd Zullinger  wrote:

> > If there's something you're replying to in particular,
> > maybe quote that one line but there's no need to quote the
> > entire thread so far in every email in the thread.   

yes, in my client I highlight a point as I've done here then hit reply
and get no cruft and just the point I want to discuss. Claws mail. (if
it's good enough for Richard Stallman it's good enough for me!)

d
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Top-posting & list guidelines (was: alternative to skype)

[Todd Zullinger]

chicago wrote:
> I think both top posting and bottom posting are asinine.
> The correct answer is to delete the quoted text and reply. 
>
> If there's something you're replying to in particular,
> maybe quote that one line but there's no need to quote the
> entire thread so far in every email in the thread. 

The list guidelines ask folks to use "bottom, interleaved
posting." and to "not over-quote by the hierarchy level in
the correspondence."

It's a shame that many popular email clients make this
require more effort than necessary and that many users come
from work/school environments which encourage top-posting,
over-quoting, HTML mail, etc.

Overall, I'd say the list members here do a reasonable job
and many of the list regulars give helpful, friendly nudges
to new members.

-- 
Todd
~~
I don't mean to sound cold, or cruel, or vicious,
but I am, so that's the way it comes out.
-- Bill Hicks



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Top-posting & list guidelines (was: alternative to skype)

[Todd Zullinger]

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Top-posting is specifically discouraged by the Guidelines
> of this and other lists hosted by Fedora, not to mention
> many other mailing lists of a technical nature. Please
> read:
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines#Proper_posting_style

This reminded me that we used to include a link to the
guidelines in the list footer (and in the list welcome
message).  Not everyone reads it no matter how often we may
include it, but it surely helps raise awareness a little.

With the move to mailman3, the list footer cannot be set via
the web-based admin interface.  I dug into the mailman3
documentation and filed an infrastructure ticket to see
about adding guidelines link back to the list footer for
this list.

https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/6794

-- 
Todd
~~
If barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?
-- Jack Handy



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