[users] Top posting should be allowed
Good afternoon all, particularly the moderators I have been criticised a few times for top posting on this list. I haven't participated much since the last critic. I started work in 1963. I was told that I just missed out using nibs that you dip into an ink well. My first recollections of keeping records were handwritten notes on plain paper. I progressed to typing and then computerised records. Back to the paper - we wrote down the page (of course). However the pages were filed latest on top. The idea being that when I opened a file I wanted to see the most recent notes to remind me what had happened recently. When I needed to know more history I opened the older pages. When I moved to computerised record keeping this principle has proven better than the concept of scrolling to the bottom of the 'page' to see what happened in my last discussion. I am not alone in this thinking. Some data managers built specially for my work follow this principle. Which leads me to why some dislike top posting. If I am following a long thread the last thing I want to do is page down over the information I have read before. I want to simply read the new bit that some kind person has added. (If I need a reminder of what has gone before, I simply scroll. But if I am interested in the thread this rarely happens.) If a thread becomes complex, answers should be inserted where they are relevant. Surely if I thank somebody for their help, they are entitled to see my thanks quickly. I suspect this will start a flame or two, but I am passionate about this. Comments please. Keith Bainbridge PO Box 324 BELMONT Vic 3216 +61 (0)408 522 706 keithr...@gmail.com
Re: [users] Top posting should be allowed
I must agree with the "top posting" proposition. It would seem very counter intuitive to scroll to the bottom of a message, read the message moving down the script and then scroll up to read the previous message, constantly repeating the process, up down, up down sometimes almost ad infinitum with active lists. It would seem logical to start reading the latest addition to the list and continue scrolling down to read previous posts if required. As far as I can determine the "top posting" was made a "rule" by someone that became annoyed with persons contributing to lists by "top posting" when they had personally decided that "bottom posting" was the right way. Numerous reasons are put forward as to why "bottom posting" is best, most of these reasons are based on pre-internet communication methods, reading books etc. Rules applying to typewriters, fax machines, ticker-tape and verbal conversations shouldn't be used to control the use of internet communications. I personally prefer "top posting" both for reading and replying but I am perfectly able to accommodate either, I certainly would not berate anyone that did not comply with my preference.It would be interesting to know if this the accepted reply format in languages other than US English. On 12/02/2010 6:41 PM, Keith R Bainbridge wrote: Good afternoon all, particularly the moderators I have been criticised a few times for top posting on this list. I haven't participated much since the last critic. I started work in 1963. I was told that I just missed out using nibs that you dip into an ink well. My first recollections of keeping records were handwritten notes on plain paper. I progressed to typing and then computerised records. Back to the paper - we wrote down the page (of course). However the pages were filed latest on top. The idea being that when I opened a file I wanted to see the most recent notes to remind me what had happened recently. When I needed to know more history I opened the older pages. When I moved to computerised record keeping this principle has proven better than the concept of scrolling to the bottom of the 'page' to see what happened in my last discussion. I am not alone in this thinking. Some data managers built specially for my work follow this principle. Which leads me to why some dislike top posting. If I am following a long thread the last thing I want to do is page down over the information I have read before. I want to simply read the new bit that some kind person has added. (If I need a reminder of what has gone before, I simply scroll. But if I am interested in the thread this rarely happens.) If a thread becomes complex, answers should be inserted where they are relevant. Surely if I thank somebody for their help, they are entitled to see my thanks quickly. I suspect this will start a flame or two, but I am passionate about this. Comments please. Keith Bainbridge PO Box 324 BELMONT Vic 3216 +61 (0)408 522 706 keithr...@gmail.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Top posting should be allowed
- Original Message - From: "Keith R Bainbridge" To: users@openoffice.org Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 2:41:36 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [users] Top posting should be allowed Good afternoon all, particularly the moderators I have been criticised a few times for top posting on this list. I haven't participated much since the last critic. I started work in 1963. I was told that I just missed out using nibs that you dip into an ink well. My first recollections of keeping records were handwritten notes on plain paper. I progressed to typing and then computerised records. Back to the paper - we wrote down the page (of course). However the pages were filed latest on top. The idea being that when I opened a file I wanted to see the most recent notes to remind me what had happened recently. When I needed to know more history I opened the older pages. When I moved to computerised record keeping this principle has proven better than the concept of scrolling to the bottom of the 'page' to see what happened in my last discussion. I am not alone in this thinking. Some data managers built specially for my work follow this principle. Which leads me to why some dislike top posting. If I am following a long thread the last thing I want to do is page down over the information I have read before. I want to simply read the new bit that some kind person has added. (If I need a reminder of what has gone before, I simply scroll. But if I am interested in the thread this rarely happens.) If a thread becomes complex, answers should be inserted where they are relevant. Surely if I thank somebody for their help, they are entitled to see my thanks quickly. I suspect this will start a flame or two, but I am passionate about this. Comments please. Keith Bainbridge PO Box 324 BELMONT Vic 3216 +61 (0)408 522 706 keithr...@gmail.com I agree. I don't like bottom posting, for the reasons mentioned above, but you had to read all that again, to see my thoughts. chalcedony Linda - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Top posting should be allowed
Linda L. Hull wrote: - Original Message - From: "Keith R Bainbridge" Good afternoon all, particularly the moderators Keith Bainbridge I agree. I don't like bottom posting, for the reasons mentioned above, but you had to read all that again, to see my thoughts. chalcedony Linda No I didn't. I saw that the top was an unnecessary quoting of the entire original post and just scrolled to the bottom to see what you wrote. Simple and intuitive. -- Gene Y. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Top posting should be allowed
Keith wrote: > why some dislike top posting. If I am following a long thread the > last thing I want to do is page down over the information I have > read before. One of the reasons for bottom posting (on a support mailing list like this, at least) is that half the reason it exists is for people who will read it weeks or months in the future. That is to build over time archives where as many pages as possible are ordered, understandable, stand-alone tips (as in "first the description of the problem, then the solution). Consistent bottom posting makes the archives more useful for people looking for solutions via search engines, which in turn decreases the number of questions to the list (which is particularly important for lists like this, which allow messages from non-members). There are other reasons, but since I already answered to this question on this list, I'll just post the link: http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=users&msgNo=169271 and conclude with two comments: #1 most of the flames about top or bottom posting comes from people in either category who do NOT trim the original message before replying. Do that, and almost nobody will bother if you top post or the opposite. This is explained better in the link above #2 the official guidelines of this mailing list recommend (albeit implicitly) bottom posting. I have explained this here: http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=users&msgNo=169373 As long as that's the case, you may ask that somebody is expelled for top posting, but not the opposite, because only the first practice is against the guidelines of this list. If moderators were really strict, theoretically you couldn't even _complain_ about bottom posters, because they're simply following the rules. I am not saying that top posting is a reason to expel anyone, of course, just describing the current situation. As long as that's the rule, whenever a flamewar starts here on this list, the ones who are on the "wrong" side (guidelines-wise) are the top posters. In practice the best way, if not the only one, to not waste time on this here is that everybody consistently follows tip #1 above. Marco -- Should water be public or private? Australian, of course: http://stop.zona-m.net/node/52 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Top posting should be allowed
On Feb 12, 2010, at 17:03 , M. Fioretti wrote: > Keith wrote: > >> why some dislike top posting. If I am following a long thread the >> last thing I want to do is page down over the information I have >> read before. > > One of the reasons for bottom posting (on a support mailing list like > this, at least) is that half the reason it exists is for people who > will read it weeks or months in the future. That is to build over time > archives where as many pages as possible are ordered, understandable, > stand-alone tips (as in "first the description of the problem, then > the solution). Consistent bottom posting makes the archives more > useful for people looking for solutions via search engines, which in > turn decreases the number of questions to the list (which is > particularly important for lists like this, which allow messages from > non-members). Good point, Marco, and the first really rational - as opposed to religious - justification for bottom-posting. My own position is when in Rome do as the Romans. If I find that the general rule is bottom-posting I bottom-post out of courtesy and live with the inevitable persons who don't trim hard before posting. 90% of what goes on in here I delete on the basis of the subject line. But if nothing is said, then I top-post because this is without doubt the Internet norm. And as someone pointed out, most emails are short and (should) contain only one point, and it's just as easy to read a top-post as a bottom-post. I think the example was an exchange about a lunch date. Just my 2c. //J - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Top posting should be allowed
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 05:24:18PM +0100, James Wilde wrote: > ..snip... > Good point, Marco, and the first really rational - as opposed to religious - > justification for bottom-posting. My own position is when in Rome do as the > Romans. If I find that the general rule is bottom-posting I bottom-post out > of courtesy and live with the inevitable persons who don't trim hard before > posting. 90% of what goes on in here I delete on the basis of the subject > line. But if nothing is said, then I top-post because this is without doubt > the Internet norm. And as someone pointed out, most emails are short and > (should) contain only one point, and it's just as easy to read a top-post as > a bottom-post. I think the example was an exchange about a lunch date. Top posting is the internet norm? Since when? I think you have that backwards. P.S. Check your line wrapping. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 "If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer" signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [users] Top posting should be allowed
On Friday 12 February 2010 20:41, Keith R Bainbridge wrote: > Which leads me to why some dislike top posting. If I am following a long > thread the last thing I want to do is page down over the information I have > read before. I want to simply read the new bit that some kind person has > added. (If I need a reminder of what has gone before, I simply scroll. But > if I am interested in the thread this rarely happens.) If a thread becomes > complex, answers should be inserted where they are relevant. That is why for mailing lists it is recommended to prune non-essential text from the emails (to limit quoted text) and only reply to the relevant portions. If you wish to trace back the discussion then you open old emails. > Surely if I thank somebody for their help, they are entitled to see my > thanks quickly. Indeed, they are. Therefore in a reply to a newbie post - which often raises multiple points - it is better to reply to each relevant point directly beneath the relevant point. This is an inline, interleaved or interspersed reply and is recommended by the mailing list guidelines for OO.o lists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Inline_replying http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html (see Replying) > I suspect this will start a flame or two, but I am passionate about this. Then why post. This is not how you get things changed here; This is however how you start a flamewar which detracts from the main purpose of this list - to help other users in need. Though well-meaning these post often contribute to the anarchic look of the list emails giving nay-sayers ammunition to discount the list as worthless. On a developer list such a post would be heavily flamed to prevent discussion of this type - as all developers understand the principles of a mailing list which is not normal nor business email. To make a suggested change to the mailing list guidelines you need to understand how an open source project works. This is a Request For Enhancement (RFE) wherein you are requesting a change to the mailing guidelines of the lists (plural) including developer lists OR you are requesting this list to be treated differently to the others which would entail separate guidelines for this list only. To place a RFE you need to register on the QA website: http://qa.openoffice.org/ Then open a bug report to get the mailing list guidelines changed. It will be considered (or seen as a duplicate of another report) and in this case probably closed as frivolous immediately. The style of emails in mailing lists and newsgroups has evolved a long time ago. http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html Mailing lists are not like personal emails, nor are they like business emails. Generally business emails are written by people who are not technology savvy but are employed in a business. Thus instead of a well thought out protocol for emailing, business emails tend to adopt personal email techniques. Afterwards businesses may adopt rules which often are aimed at protecting the rights of the business rather than improving the email techniques. HTH -- Michael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
Re: [users] Top posting should be allowed
As Monty Python would say, Keith Bainbridge, "You are a very Naughty Boy". Posted top and bottom so take your choice. On 12/02/2010 6:41 PM, Keith R Bainbridge wrote: Good afternoon all, particularly the moderators I have been criticised a few times for top posting on this list. I haven't participated much since the last critic. I started work in 1963. I was told that I just missed out using nibs that you dip into an ink well. My first recollections of keeping records were handwritten notes on plain paper. I progressed to typing and then computerised records. Back to the paper - we wrote down the page (of course). However the pages were filed latest on top. The idea being that when I opened a file I wanted to see the most recent notes to remind me what had happened recently. When I needed to know more history I opened the older pages. When I moved to computerised record keeping this principle has proven better than the concept of scrolling to the bottom of the 'page' to see what happened in my last discussion. I am not alone in this thinking. Some data managers built specially for my work follow this principle. Which leads me to why some dislike top posting. If I am following a long thread the last thing I want to do is page down over the information I have read before. I want to simply read the new bit that some kind person has added. (If I need a reminder of what has gone before, I simply scroll. But if I am interested in the thread this rarely happens.) If a thread becomes complex, answers should be inserted where they are relevant. Surely if I thank somebody for their help, they are entitled to see my thanks quickly. I suspect this will start a flame or two, but I am passionate about this. Comments please. Keith Bainbridge PO Box 324 BELMONT Vic 3216 +61 (0)408 522 706 keithr...@gmail.com As Monty Python would say, Keith Bainbridge, "You are a very Naughty Boy". Posted top and bottom so take your choice. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@openoffice.org
