Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
John wrote: > But the user should not have to use a less familiar unit of measurement. For the majority of the world --- which means _every_ country but the united states --- the inch is the unknown and much less familiar unit of measurement. [Wondering if South African law still classifies use of the imperial system as aiding and betting terrorism.] >How hard could it be to add some decimal places? The issue is one of correctly translating the unit measurements to the internal representation. More than two decimal places adds noise, rather than signal. xan jonathon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards?
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
Hello John I'm with you on this. It seems such a small thing to correct. When I print documents that have large photos the precise setting is lost at only 2 decimal places. I too am more familiar with inches and I'm not from the US of A - I just happen to be a pre-decimal Brit! (not related to the dinosaur as far as I know) WSP John Hardy wrote: Using Writer with a "Measurement Unit" of "Inch": When trying to set a Tab Stop dimension, there is a limit of 2 decimal places. A dimension of .375" (3/8") gets rounded to .38". The same thing happens when trying to set a Grid Resolution dimension. The same thing happens when trying to set a Fixed Line Spacing in Paragraph mode. The same thing happens when setting Margins in Page mode. It seems that wherever a dimension can be specified, it is limited to 2 decimal places. While this is OK for some things, it would be very helpful to have 3 or 4 or 5 decimal places of accuracy available. Storage space is certainly not an issue. Processing power is certainly not an issue. So why the limit of 2 decimal places? I know that greater accuracy can be achieved by using Millimeters or Points as the Measurement Unit with the limit of 2 decimal places because those units are much smaller than an inch. But the user should not have to use a less familiar unit of measurement. The software is supposed to make things like this easier, not harder. How hard could it be to add some decimal places? Thank you. John Hardy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- OOo 2.0 - Mozilla Suite 1.7.12 - Win XP sp2 = http://www.answersingenesis.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
On Friday 28 October 2005 04:52 am, Wangshanpo wrote: > Hello John > I'm with you on this. It seems such a small thing to correct. > When I print documents that have large photos the precise setting is > lost at only 2 decimal places. I too am more familiar with inches and > I'm not from the US of A - I just happen to be a pre-decimal Brit! (not > related to the dinosaur as far as I know) > WSP > > John Hardy wrote: > > Using Writer with a "Measurement Unit" of "Inch": > > > > When trying to set a Tab Stop dimension, there is a limit of 2 decimal > > places. A dimension of .375" (3/8") gets rounded to .38". > > The same thing happens when trying to set a Grid Resolution dimension. > > The same thing happens when trying to set a Fixed Line Spacing in > > Paragraph mode. > > The same thing happens when setting Margins in Page mode. > > It seems that wherever a dimension can be specified, it is limited to > > 2 decimal places. While this is OK for some things, it would be very > > helpful to have 3 or 4 or 5 decimal places of accuracy available. > > Storage space is certainly not an issue. Processing power is certainly > > not an issue. So why the limit of 2 decimal places? > > I know that greater accuracy can be achieved by using Millimeters or > > Points as the Measurement Unit with the limit of 2 decimal places > > because those units are much smaller than an inch. But the user should > > not have to use a less familiar unit of measurement. The software is > > supposed to make things like this easier, not harder. How hard could > > it be to add some decimal places? > > Thank you. > > John Hardy I am from the USA and use "cm" all the time with OOo. If you stop and think abouit it, all you see on the screen is a bunch of numbers in the ruler. OOo creates the proper dimensions for the page and margin that you have set. (I use letter size and portrait.) So all you are doing is making changes according to the rulers at the top and perhaps the left of your page. It is not as difficult as you might think to adjust using a different system of measure. You learn "metric" measuring the same way you learned the measuring system you are use to: you use it. Measuring is just a matter of comparing a length against some numbers on a ruler. If you want a more accurate reading, you use a smaller scale. That is all. That is not all that hard to do regardless of what system you are using. Try it, you might even like it. Dan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
While changing the unit measurements is probably the best answer (and using points would give the best control -- and is probably easiest for someone used to inches to deal with 27 points is 3/8th). This might be a silly question but the difference between .375 and . 38 would be tough to see, and unless you are outputting to an imagesetter, outside what you can reproduce. Does it really make a difference? On a more general note, how many other compromises to usability are "acceptable"? The "majority" of the world will never user a Swedish version of the program, does that mean that one should not be available? Andy Spitfire Computer Services 441 Beaver Street Suite 202 Sewickley, PA 15143 Phone (412) 749-0162 Fax: (412) 749-0203 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.spitcomp.com On Oct 28, 2005, at 4:49 AM, Jonathon Blake wrote: John wrote: But the user should not have to use a less familiar unit of measurement. For the majority of the world --- which means _every_ country but the united states --- the inch is the unknown and much less familiar unit of measurement. [Wondering if South African law still classifies use of the imperial system as aiding and betting terrorism.] How hard could it be to add some decimal places? The issue is one of correctly translating the unit measurements to the internal representation. More than two decimal places adds noise, rather than signal. xan jonathon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards?
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
Thanks for the input Dan, and for your encouragement for me to broaden and develop my intelligence. The point you are missing here is that I and many others prefer to work in inches - not that we are incapable of thinking outside some prescribed boundary. In every other area of my life I use inch measurements. OpenOffice developers have seen fit to include inches as an option, it seems reasonable therefore that potential users of inches should have minor irritations addressed. If other wordprocessors permit extended decimal point use, then why shouldn't the world's greatest? Dan Lewis wrote: I am from the USA and use "cm" all the time with OOo. If you stop and think abouit it, all you see on the screen is a bunch of numbers in the ruler. OOo creates the proper dimensions for the page and margin that you have set. (I use letter size and portrait.) So all you are doing is making changes according to the rulers at the top and perhaps the left of your page. It is not as difficult as you might think to adjust using a different system of measure. You learn "metric" measuring the same way you learned the measuring system you are use to: you use it. Measuring is just a matter of comparing a length against some numbers on a ruler. If you want a more accurate reading, you use a smaller scale. That is all. That is not all that hard to do regardless of what system you are using. Try it, you might even like it. Dan -- OOo 2.0 - Mozilla Suite 1.7.12 - Win XP sp2 = http://www.answersingenesis.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
Wangshanpo wrote: Thanks for the input Dan, and for your encouragement for me to broaden and develop my intelligence. The point you are missing here is that I and many others prefer to work in inches - not that we are incapable of thinking outside some prescribed boundary. In every other area of my life I use inch measurements. OpenOffice developers have seen fit to include inches as an option, it seems reasonable therefore that potential users of inches should have minor irritations addressed. If other wordprocessors permit extended decimal point use, then why shouldn't the world's greatest? Dan Lewis wrote: I am from the USA and use "cm" all the time with OOo. If you stop and think abouit it, all you see on the screen is a bunch of numbers in the ruler. OOo creates the proper dimensions for the page and margin that you have set. (I use letter size and portrait.) So all you are doing is making changes according to the rulers at the top and perhaps the left of your page. It is not as difficult as you might think to adjust using a different system of measure. You learn "metric" measuring the same way you learned the measuring system you are use to: you use it. Measuring is just a matter of comparing a length against some numbers on a ruler. If you want a more accurate reading, you use a smaller scale. That is all. That is not all that hard to do regardless of what system you are using. Try it, you might even like it. Dan The question is how much accuracy to you really need in a document. The issue here isn't really inch or mm but precision. Housed are built with less precision than what you are asking for. Thousands of an inch? Come on. I have a hard time visualizing a 100th of an inch. Can you purchase a ruler with a 100th of an inch scale? I use inch, cm or mm or whatever works for what I am doing. Most of my home renovations are based on inch to work with the present construction. New designs are in mm or cm. My kids are measured in both but their birth plaques are metric. Again, thousands of an inch? -- Robin Laing - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
I suggest that you enter an Request for Enhancement (RFE) into Issue Tracker as this is the best way to have requests such as this evaluated. If you haven't already registered, do the following: 1. To file an issue you must register with OOo by clicking the My Pages tab and selecting the Register link http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/Join 2. Fill in your information 3. Reply to the confirmation email that will be sent to the address you provided. 4. Once you have confirmed, go to www.openoffice.org again 5. And click on the "My Pages" tab from which you can file and find issues. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. It is important that you file any examples with the issue to ensure your need is understood. On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 16:00 +0100, Wangshanpo wrote: > Thanks for the input Dan, and for your encouragement for me to broaden > and develop my intelligence. The point you are missing here is that I > and many others prefer to work in inches - not that we are incapable of > thinking outside some prescribed boundary. In every other area of my > life I use inch measurements. OpenOffice developers have seen fit to > include inches as an option, it seems reasonable therefore that > potential users of inches should have minor irritations addressed. If > other wordprocessors permit extended decimal point use, then why > shouldn't the world's greatest? > Dan Lewis wrote: > > > I am from the USA and use "cm" all the time with OOo. If you stop and > >think abouit it, all you see on the screen is a bunch of numbers in the > >ruler. OOo creates the proper dimensions for the page and margin that you > >have set. (I use letter size and portrait.) So all you are doing is making > >changes according to the rulers at the top and perhaps the left of your > >page. > >It is not as difficult as you might think to adjust using a different system > >of measure. You learn "metric" measuring the same way you learned the > >measuring system you are use to: you use it. Measuring is just a matter of > >comparing a length against some numbers on a ruler. If you want a more > >accurate reading, you use a smaller scale. That is all. That is not all that > >hard to do regardless of what system you are using. Try it, you might even > >like it. > > > >Dan > > > > > > -- PLEASE KEEP MESSAGES ON THE LIST. OpenOffice.org Documentation Co-Lead http://documentation.openoffice.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
Wangshanpo wrote: Thanks for the input Dan, and for your encouragement for me to broaden and develop my intelligence. The point you are missing here is that I and many others prefer to work in inches - not that we are incapable of thinking outside some prescribed boundary. In every other area of my life I use inch measurements. OpenOffice developers have seen fit to include inches as an option, it seems reasonable therefore that potential users of inches should have minor irritations addressed. If other wordprocessors permit extended decimal point use, then why shouldn't the world's greatest? Dan Lewis wrote: Bravo! Why some people think that those of us who prefer to use Imperial measures are in some way incapable using the more simplistic metric system is beyond me. For what it's worth, I experimented today and concluded that rounding errors in the presentation layer are at the root of the problems with 2 decimal places. If one constructs a template using the metric system, or typographical points, to achieve the required document accuracy and then reverts to Imperial measures in the Options dialogues, the accuracy remains in the template, even though the displayed, rounded, Imperial dimensions are incorrectly calculated. From this it follows that a fix would be trivial to implement, if we could only persuade our metric using developers to do it:-) Peter HB - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
Andrew wrote: > Does it really make a difference? Yes. [I've seen fights break out becuase the line width was 0.002 inches, rather than 0.003 inches. You might not be able to tell the difference, but the layout rtist, the designer, and the printer will all look at that 0.002 line and see that it is wrong. xan jonathon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards?
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 18:33 +, Jonathon Blake wrote: > Andrew wrote: > > > Does it really make a difference? > > Yes. [I've seen fights break out becuase the line width was 0.002 > inches, rather than 0.003 inches. You might not be able to tell the > difference, but the layout rtist, the designer, and the printer will > all look at that 0.002 line and see that it is wrong. > > xan > > jonathon Will someone please enter an RFE and post the issue number back to the list. Earlier I suggested that someone in the thread enter an Request for Enhancement (RFE) into Issue Tracker as this is the best way to have requests such as this evaluated. For those haven't already registered, do the following: 1. To file an issue you must register with OOo by clicking the My Pages tab and selecting the Register link http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/Join 2. Fill in your information 3. Reply to the confirmation email that will be sent to the address you provided. 4. Once you have confirmed, go to www.openoffice.org again 5. And click on the "My Pages" tab from which you can file and find issues. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. It is important that you file any examples with the issue to ensure your need is understood. -- PLEASE KEEP MESSAGES ON THE LIST. OpenOffice.org Documentation Co-Lead http://documentation.openoffice.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
On 28 Oct 2005 at 11:57, Robin Laing wrote: ... > The question is how much accuracy to you really need in a document. > The issue here isn't really inch or mm but precision. Housed are > built with less precision than what you are asking for. Thousands of > an inch? Come on. I have a hard time visualizing a 100th of an inch. > Can you purchase a ruler with a 100th of an inch scale? I've used a metal ruler with 1/64 inch divisions. Not so far off 10 thou -- and even if you can't /measure/ .01 inches accurately by eye, you can still, I suspect, easily /see/ the difference between .01 inch and .015 inch. More to the point, why limit, whether deliberately or accidentally, available precision? I can't see that it costs extra to have it; those who don't need it won't bother, those who do will take it for granted. -- various incoming sites blocked because of spam; see http://www.scottsonline.org.uk for a list and openpgp crypto key (key fingerprint 2ACC 9F21 5103 F68C 7C32 9EA8 C949 81E1 31C9 1364) [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mike Scott, Harlow, Essex, England - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
The issue is not the precison with which Open Office can place an element on a page -- you can only specify 2 decimal place when your default unit is set to points, You get get a much smaller increment (.00014") -- it's just that if you are used to working in inches switching to a different unit of measure is a pain. At the risk of getting abused again -- even though I still say that laser and inkjet printers are not accurate enough for .005 to make a difference and if you are using an imagesetter and have printers and artists involved, I would work on the assumption that yopu would pick the correct tool for the job and use a page layout program with the precison you need. So the real question is how much of a Swiss army Knife should Open Office be -- at what point does the application become so bloated with features and options that it begins to resemble another well know office package. Thanks Andy Spitfire Computer Services 441 Beaver Street Suite 202 Sewickley, PA 15143 Phone (412) 749-0162 Fax: (412) 749-0203 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.spitcomp.com On Oct 29, 2005, at 7:16 AM, mike scott wrote: On 28 Oct 2005 at 11:57, Robin Laing wrote: ... The question is how much accuracy to you really need in a document. The issue here isn't really inch or mm but precision. Housed are built with less precision than what you are asking for. Thousands of an inch? Come on. I have a hard time visualizing a 100th of an inch. Can you purchase a ruler with a 100th of an inch scale? I've used a metal ruler with 1/64 inch divisions. Not so far off 10 thou -- and even if you can't /measure/ .01 inches accurately by eye, you can still, I suspect, easily /see/ the difference between .01 inch and .015 inch. More to the point, why limit, whether deliberately or accidentally, available precision? I can't see that it costs extra to have it; those who don't need it won't bother, those who do will take it for granted. -- various incoming sites blocked because of spam; see http://www.scottsonline.org.uk for a list and openpgp crypto key (key fingerprint 2ACC 9F21 5103 F68C 7C32 9EA8 C949 81E1 31C9 1364) [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mike Scott, Harlow, Essex, England - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
Robin wrote: > Can you purchase a ruler with a 100th of an inch scale? Yes. > and even if you can't /measure/ .01 inches accurately by eye, This depends upon one's trade. I know several people who eye measure (accurately) to the thousandth of an inch. xan jonathon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards?
RE: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
what is the resolution of a standard laser printer these days? @ 1200 dpi, one dot is less than .001 inches!!! -Original Message- From: Jonathon Blake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:05 AM To: users@openoffice.org Subject: Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places Robin wrote: > Can you purchase a ruler with a 100th of an inch scale? Yes. > and even if you can't /measure/ .01 inches accurately by eye, This depends upon one's trade. I know several people who eye measure (accurately) to the thousandth of an inch. xan jonathon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
I have been following this since the beginning. I think an essential point is being missed. If the goal is to have OO used as widely as possible then any artificial barriers are an issue. It appears that it will be very little work, perhaps less than the work exerted in this thread. No universe is perfect. Some people use metric, others use English. My job requires me to constantly go between them as my machine tools are English and many, but not all, semiconductor specs are in metric. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether the extra decimal place has some objective absolute utility, though I believe it does. It is an issue of what we want to force the potential adopters of OO to deal with. I think that it ought to be implemented to the 3 decimal places requested as that makes things like 1/8" = 0.125 comprehensible in a way that people are used to. It is a user friendly issue rather than a profound statement about units. I do not believe that OO is the place to prosylitize metric, There are enough government agencies and the UN to do that. What I believe is desired is an Office Suite that is functional, easy to use and widely adopted. Frank Andrew Fisk wrote: The issue is not the precison with which Open Office can place an element on a page -- you can only specify 2 decimal place when your default unit is set to points, You get get a much smaller increment (.00014") -- it's just that if you are used to working in inches switching to a different unit of measure is a pain. At the risk of getting abused again -- even though I still say that laser and inkjet printers are not accurate enough for .005 to make a difference and if you are using an imagesetter and have printers and artists involved, I would work on the assumption that yopu would pick the correct tool for the job and use a page layout program with the precison you need. So the real question is how much of a Swiss army Knife should Open Office be -- at what point does the application become so bloated with features and options that it begins to resemble another well know office package. Thanks Andy Spitfire Computer Services 441 Beaver Street Suite 202 Sewickley, PA 15143 Phone (412) 749-0162 Fax: (412) 749-0203 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.spitcomp.com On Oct 29, 2005, at 7:16 AM, mike scott wrote: On 28 Oct 2005 at 11:57, Robin Laing wrote: ... The question is how much accuracy to you really need in a document. The issue here isn't really inch or mm but precision. Housed are built with less precision than what you are asking for. Thousands of an inch? Come on. I have a hard time visualizing a 100th of an inch. Can you purchase a ruler with a 100th of an inch scale? I've used a metal ruler with 1/64 inch divisions. Not so far off 10 thou -- and even if you can't /measure/ .01 inches accurately by eye, you can still, I suspect, easily /see/ the difference between .01 inch and .015 inch. More to the point, why limit, whether deliberately or accidentally, available precision? I can't see that it costs extra to have it; those who don't need it won't bother, those who do will take it for granted. -- various incoming sites blocked because of spam; see http://www.scottsonline.org.uk for a list and openpgp crypto key (key fingerprint 2ACC 9F21 5103 F68C 7C32 9EA8 C949 81E1 31C9 1364) [EMAIL PROTECTED]Mike Scott, Harlow, Essex, England - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
Laser printers are not really 1200 DPI -- have you ever noticed that you have "Resolution Enhancement Technology" you get 600 DPI dots that are "Half Stepped" to make for a smoother line. Look at how the paper is handled going though a Laser Do you really think that any two pages feed through with enough accuracy for a 1/1000th of an inch to be relevant, Thanks Andy Spitfire Computer Services 441 Beaver Street Suite 202 Sewickley, PA 15143 Phone (412) 749-0162 Fax: (412) 749-0203 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.spitcomp.com On Oct 29, 2005, at 2:29 PM, Roger Ross wrote: what is the resolution of a standard laser printer these days? @ 1200 dpi, one dot is less than .001 inches!!! -Original Message- From: Jonathon Blake [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:05 AM To: users@openoffice.org Subject: Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places Robin wrote: Can you purchase a ruler with a 100th of an inch scale? Yes. and even if you can't /measure/ .01 inches accurately by eye, This depends upon one's trade. I know several people who eye measure (accurately) to the thousandth of an inch. xan jonathon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
Andrew Fisk wrote: Laser printers are not really 1200 DPI -- have you ever noticed that you have "Resolution Enhancement Technology" you get 600 DPI dots that are "Half Stepped" to make for a smoother line. That is true of some laser printers. Others are true 1200DPI Look at how the paper is handled going though a Laser Do you really think that any two pages feed through with enough accuracy for a 1/1000th of an inch to be relevant, That's not relevant. And neither is relevant to the fact that a plus-or-minus 0.005 inch tolerance amounts to a plus-or-minus one-line-per-page tolerance with normal-size type on normal-size paper. -- John W. Kennedy "But now is a new thing which is very old-- that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer, which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake." -- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford" - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [users] Measurement Unit = Inch: need more than 2 decimal places
mike scott wrote: On 28 Oct 2005 at 11:57, Robin Laing wrote: ... The question is how much accuracy to you really need in a document. The issue here isn't really inch or mm but precision. Housed are built with less precision than what you are asking for. Thousands of an inch? Come on. I have a hard time visualizing a 100th of an inch. Can you purchase a ruler with a 100th of an inch scale? I've used a metal ruler with 1/64 inch divisions. Not so far off 10 thou -- and even if you can't /measure/ .01 inches accurately by eye, you can still, I suspect, easily /see/ the difference between .01 inch and .015 inch. More to the point, why limit, whether deliberately or accidentally, available precision? I can't see that it costs extra to have it; those who don't need it won't bother, those who do will take it for granted. This and all the other responses all give good reasons to allow higher precision in settings. I find that I have to admit that I was wrong. The answer about cumulative errors actually reminded me of problems I have had in the past. -- Robin Laing - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
