Re: Confession and rage
I'm still torn on whether to show up for my appointment at 1pm. I think just because I was treated with contempt by the person I spoke to earlier, I don't want to give them my money... Absolutely not. Vote with your wallet.
Re: Confession and rage
On 5/6/05, List Mail User [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Again, there is an unfortunate exception provided by Sec 3.17 which allows Transactional or relationship message- and in particular clause A.iii.I specifically allows notification concerning a change in the terms or features of. This has specifically been taken by courts to allow the sending of email notifying you of a change in price(s) Eh? When? Where? Case reference, please. (iii) a valid physical postal address of the sender. [...] It is unfortunate that both P.O. Boxes and Agents for service of a holding company would clearly qualify under this clause (i.e. a physical postal address != physical address). I've actually spoken to an attorney specifically about this point, and it was his contention that this was not at all clear.
RE: Confession and rage
*snip* Cliffs: Hairdresser is spamming anyone with an account. Do I: - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing? Yup. - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs? Yup. And tell her you will. Tell her she is about to get all her emails blocked from 3/4 of the earth. Do NOT place false appointments. Do not hack site. DO Educate. Note: Make sure you do all this AFTER they cut your hair :) Chris Santerre System Admin and SARE/URIBL Ninja http://www.rulesemporium.com http://www.uribl.com
Re: OT: Confession and rage
Just think communication is the best issue - talk to the owner of the saloon, and if it continues, blacklist them (report them or whatever) and never go back to them and tell your mates about them. Word of mouth is scarily powerful. Yes what they are doing is bad, but they probably are learners - probably using AOL or similar to set up the website, or paying a friend's son/daughter to do it - education (i.e. prevention) is better than getting angry and chewing them up, messing with their website (i.e. cure). You never know, maybe they'll improve the website and stop the spam. I agree with you totally, spamming without being able to opt out is evil and comparable to what you've said, but as I say, better do things calmly and euducate people. Of course as I've learnt, there's no educating people though. That's just my two cents anyway. Cheers - Piers Stewart, John wrote: So, I was taking a shower this morning and was thinking I might send out a confessional email to this list... and then something else happened that has changed my outlook. The story is this... in my town, I've not been able for the longest time to find a reliable person to cut my hair. The choices have always been Supercuts/Costcutters where for very cheap you can have a blind person suffering from seizures cut your hair, or you can pay out the nose for a decent haircut at a snooty salon. A year or so ago, I found a salon where not only could you make an appointment online (through a very kludgy web interface, mind you), but the cut was very cheap in comparison to a normal salon cut (not Costcutters price, but also no worries about coming out looking like an escaped convict who cut his own hair with a sharpened spoon). Well, a couple of weeks ago, I got a spam from this salon about frickin' pedicure specials or some garbage. There was no link to opt out, and so I replied to the sender address saying please take me off, etc. The very next day I get another spam from them. At this point, I was *livid*, enraged, off my rocker pissed. I emailed them again and to every possible alias I could think of (postmaster, webmaster, etc...) saying how totally unacceptable it was, etc. I also called them, and made a couple of fake appointments to get their attention. I did get a voice mail back from the owner of the salon apologizing and saying we were trying out some stuff. It's all very obviously very amateurish and low tech, by the way. I even got into a big argument with my wife about this. She said she didn't mind the spams, since Apple and every other vendor she deals with also sends them out. I blew up over this; I think I may have even compared the salon to the Nazis in the resulting conflagration. In the past couple of weeks, though, my ire has faded and I have grown increasingly in bad need of a haircut (and my sister's wedding is coming up, so I really kind of need to get one). So I made an appointment yesterday online, where suspiciously I had to create a new account. I also thought this morning about confessing all of this to y'all. I do feel it is immoral to do business with any company which sends spam, and especially so ones where you can't get off. Well, guess what was in my inbox this morning? Another one... apparently their method of opting me out was to simply nuke my account; their spam seems to go out to everyone they have an address for, every time. Why I signed up with a valid email address, I'm not sure (tempting them?). I did put down Please Don't Spam Me; Thank you! for my snail mail address, though apparently no one sees these before the spam goes out. So I've replied again to this spam (I'm not sure anyone actually reads them, though, as the only response I have received over this was over the phone, and she might have just been responding to my call). So I have a 1pm haircut appointment today with the owner of the salon. I've also emailed her (don't know if it will be read) and left a voice mail for her (she is not in until noon). Do I: - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email? - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing? - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc? - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs? johnS
Re: OT: Confession and rage
* Stewart, John wrote (05/06/05 15:55): [... excellent story chopped ...] Do I: - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email? - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing? - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc? - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs? Or... - Offer them some consultancy, in return for a haircut (is this the same as option 2?) -- Chris
Re: OT: Confession and rage
Stewart, John wrote: So I've replied again to this spam (I'm not sure anyone actually reads them, though, as the only response I have received over this was over the phone, and she might have just been responding to my call). So I have a 1pm haircut appointment today with the owner of the salon. I've also emailed her (don't know if it will be read) and left a voice mail for her (she is not in until noon). Do I: - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email? - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing? - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc? - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs? Hi, Personally, I try to educate the poor lusers who use spam without really knowing the consequences, Better to have them understand why it is a bad thing than to have them keep doing it. Regards, Rick
Re: Confession and rage
Chris Santerre writes: *snip* Cliffs: Hairdresser is spamming anyone with an account. Do I: - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing? Yup. FWIW I had a similar experience. I thought I'd convinced the person I talked to that spamming was a losing proposition. What I discovered was that they'd stopped doing the spams themselves. And about a year later had hired professional spammers. Sigh. Still won't do business with them and (as I pointed out to them initially) I'd really like to. - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs? Yup. And tell her you will. Tell her she is about to get all her emails blocked from 3/4 of the earth. Do NOT place false appointments. Do not hack site. DO Educate. Note: Make sure you do all this AFTER they cut your hair :) Coward. I think he'd look good in a pink Mohawk.
RE: Confession and rage
Well, I just got a call from the person at the store who is responsible for setting up the technical side of things. It was not a good conversation. I was very calm (until the end) and tried to explain why it was a bad idea, what they needed to do to make it work ethically, etc, how they could handle it in a way that would be better for them. Basically, she said that they couldn't do anything about it, it was just a feature of the software they use, and she suggested I not use the online reservation system, and should just send their emails into the spam filter. I'm certainly going to report them to RBLs. I'm trying to resist the urge to sign up multiple email addresses on their spam list (no validation whatsoever; you simply enter an email address and name, and that person is added to the list). johnS
RE: Confession and rage
-Original Message- From: Stewart, John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 11:30 AM To: 'Chris Santerre'; 'users@spamassassin.apache.org' Subject: RE: Confession and rage - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs? Yup. And tell her you will. Tell her she is about to get all her emails blocked from 3/4 of the earth. As I've never actually submitted a domain to any RBLs before, any suggestions on good ones to use? thanks! LOL yeah, just post her domain name here, and I'll add it to uribl.com ;) (Thats a URI-BL, not an RBL. The greatest antispam technique since blah blah blah.) Spamcop is always a good place. --Chris
Re: OT: Confession and rage
Do I: - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email? - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing? - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc? - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs? johnS Do they not have a barber shop where you live? They are usually cheaper and more knowledgeable in cutting men's hair in my experience. I definitely would not go to the salon where you have made fake appointments for a haircut. I agree w/Chris about educating them/letting them know they are about to be reported to RBLs. Great story/rant! -- Andy Hester Network Engineer Galactic LTD
Re: OT: Confession and rage
On Friday May 6 2005 10:55 am, Stewart, John wrote: So, I was taking a shower this morning and was thinking I might send out a confessional email to this list... and then something else happened that has changed my outlook. The story is this... in my town, I've not been able for the longest time to find a reliable person to cut my hair. The choices have always been Supercuts/Costcutters where for very cheap you can have a blind person suffering from seizures cut your hair, or you can pay out the nose for a decent haircut at a snooty salon. A year or so ago, I found a salon where not only could you make an appointment online (through a very kludgy web interface, mind you), but the cut was very cheap in comparison to a normal salon cut (not Costcutters price, but also no worries about coming out looking like an escaped convict who cut his own hair with a sharpened spoon). Well, a couple of weeks ago, I got a spam from this salon about frickin' pedicure specials or some garbage. There was no link to opt out, and so I replied to the sender address saying please take me off, etc. The very next day I get another spam from them. At this point, I was *livid*, enraged, off my rocker pissed. I emailed them again and to every possible alias I could think of (postmaster, webmaster, etc...) saying how totally unacceptable it was, etc. I also called them, and made a couple of fake appointments to get their attention. I did get a voice mail back from the owner of the salon apologizing and saying we were trying out some stuff. It's all very obviously very amateurish and low tech, by the way. I even got into a big argument with my wife about this. She said she didn't mind the spams, since Apple and every other vendor she deals with also sends them out. I blew up over this; I think I may have even compared the salon to the Nazis in the resulting conflagration. In the past couple of weeks, though, my ire has faded and I have grown increasingly in bad need of a haircut (and my sister's wedding is coming up, so I really kind of need to get one). So I made an appointment yesterday online, where suspiciously I had to create a new account. I also thought this morning about confessing all of this to y'all. I do feel it is immoral to do business with any company which sends spam, and especially so ones where you can't get off. Well, guess what was in my inbox this morning? Another one... apparently their method of opting me out was to simply nuke my account; their spam seems to go out to everyone they have an address for, every time. Why I signed up with a valid email address, I'm not sure (tempting them?). I did put down Please Don't Spam Me; Thank you! for my snail mail address, though apparently no one sees these before the spam goes out. So I've replied again to this spam (I'm not sure anyone actually reads them, though, as the only response I have received over this was over the phone, and she might have just been responding to my call). So I have a 1pm haircut appointment today with the owner of the salon. I've also emailed her (don't know if it will be read) and left a voice mail for her (she is not in until noon). Do I: - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email? - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing? - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc? - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs? johnS John, Not to add insult to your injury, but you said this is a budget salon. Well, it's just another example of you get what you pay for :-) Dimitri
Re: Confession and rage
On Fri, May 06, 2005 at 10:28:38AM -0500, Stewart, John wrote: Well, I just got a call from the person at the store who is responsible for setting up the technical side of things. It was not a good conversation. I was very calm (until the end) and tried to explain why it was a bad idea, what they needed to do to make it work ethically, etc, how they could handle it in a way that would be better for them. Basically, she said that they couldn't do anything about it, it was just a feature of the software they use, and she suggested I not use the online reservation system, and should just send their emails into the spam filter. I'm certainly going to report them to RBLs. Hey, give us their email address and all of this list then should send them a mail like this: This is an automated mail to inform you that your domain (foobar.com) has been barred from our mail servers as a result of you being black- listed. The reason for this is that it has been reported that you are sending our unsolicited mail (SPAM) without any possibility to opt-out. If you disagree with this, then write to blah blah postbox etc. etc (email won't work anymore). Well, you make something up ;). If they get that from all over the world, they might start to think that they are indeed being severly blocked now ;) heheh. At least they'll start to rethink their policy of spamming people. -- Carlo Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confession and rage
Mike Jackson wrote: [snipped - um, pun intended] Okay, I'm going to take the devil's advocate approach here. By signing up with them, you created a business relationship. While their emails may be unwanted, they're not unsolicited. Your righteous indignation is unfounded - as much as I hate spam, this is not spam, or at least it's only spam in the most liberal definition thereof. Find a creative and positive solution. Educate, be polite, offer to set up a less amateurish mail system that would provide a way for customers to opt out of the emailings, ask your wife to learn to cut your hair. But for the love of Elvis don't act like a adolescent who's been dissed on the playground. It won't make you feel better, it won't help any other customers who don't want the emails, it won't help the business do things properly. If the OP has already asked (politely) to be removed, then they are indeed spamming. The first mail, I would say is warranted, the mails after the opt-out are not. If they are in the US, remind them of the CAN-SPAM act, and they are in violation of it. A little scare from big gov on a small biz can usually get action. Tho, if this isn't the us, you may be in trouble. On their site, did they have a publicly accessible policy on how they use your information? My $.02 -- Thanks, James
RE: Confession and rage
LOL yeah, just post her domain name here, and I'll add it to uribl.com ;) (Thats a URI-BL, not an RBL. The greatest antispam technique since blah blah blah.) Spamcop is always a good place. Well, I just got another call from the co-owner in charge of the software side. She is having a disclaimer added to the site so that if you log in and create an account, it tells you that you will get notified of special offers, etc. Of course, if you don't want the spam, you can't book online. Although not the ideal solution, it will suffice, I suppose. I wouldn't think at this point (assuming they make this change) that it warrants submission to any RBLs. I'm still torn on whether to show up for my appointment at 1pm. I think just because I was treated with contempt by the person I spoke to earlier, I don't want to give them my money... johnS
RE: Confession and rage
If the OP has already asked (politely) to be removed, then they are indeed spamming. The first mail, I would say is warranted, the mails after the opt-out are not. Exactly; I did ask. However, it appears that they rarely check the account they have for sender address. If they are in the US, remind them of the CAN-SPAM act, and they are in violation of it. A little scare from big gov on a small biz can usually get action. Tho, if this isn't the us, you may be in trouble. Definitely US. I just looked up CAN-SPAM, and it appears they have 10 business days to respond. They didn't technically violate this, but I'm sure they would have had I not phoned them up. I will send them a URL, at least. On their site, did they have a publicly accessible policy on how they use your information? Absolutely NOT. johnS
RE: Confession and rage
At 09:17 AM Friday, 5/6/2005, John wrote -= Well, I just got another call from the co-owner in charge of the software side. She is having a disclaimer added to the site so that if you log in and create an account, it tells you that you will get notified of special offers, etc. Of course, if you don't want the spam, you can't book online. Although not the ideal solution, it will suffice, I suppose. I wouldn't think at this point (assuming they make this change) that it warrants submission to any RBLs. I do. I think that if they don't offer an opt out then it becomes unsolicited. I'm still torn on whether to show up for my appointment at 1pm. I think just because I was treated with contempt by the person I spoke to earlier, I don't want to give them my money... I can recommend a good stylist in LA ;-) Ed Kasky ~ Randomly Generated Quote (365 of 477): Man is the only animal that can remain on friendly terms with the victims he intends to eat until he eats them. --Samuel Butler
RE: Confession and rage
Although not the ideal solution, it will suffice, I suppose. I wouldn't think at this point (assuming they make this change) that it warrants submission to any RBLs. I do. I think that if they don't offer an opt out then it becomes unsolicited. The opt-out was to email back to the address and ask to be removed. The problem was that no one was regularly checking this address. I spoke to the co-owner again about this and it sounds like they are putting in a procedure to check this account regularly. johnS
Re: Confession and rage
On Friday May 6 2005 12:45 pm, Stewart, John wrote: Although not the ideal solution, it will suffice, I suppose. I wouldn't think at this point (assuming they make this change) that it warrants submission to any RBLs. I do. I think that if they don't offer an opt out then it becomes unsolicited. The opt-out was to email back to the address and ask to be removed. The problem was that no one was regularly checking this address. I spoke to the co-owner again about this and it sounds like they are putting in a procedure to check this account regularly. johnS Good on ya for taking the time and patience to educate those folks. One spammer down, hundreds to go. Dimitri
Re: OT: Confession and rage
Chris Lear wrote: * Stewart, John wrote (05/06/05 15:55): [... excellent story chopped ...] Do I: - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email? - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing? - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc? - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs? Or... - Offer them some consultancy, in return for a haircut (is this the same as option 2?) Simply telling them your consultancy billing rate ought to influence them to stop the SPAM. OTOH, after you disclose your billing rate, they may raise their rates. -- Chris -- Martin
Re: Confession and rage
Chris Santerre wrote: *snip* Cliffs: Hairdresser is spamming anyone with an account. Do I: - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing? Yup. Yes ... if you show up in person ... as a client ... she will react differently than to eMail or telephone. - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs? Yup. And tell her you will. Tell her she is about to get all her emails blocked from 3/4 of the earth. Do NOT place false appointments. Do not hack site. DO Educate. Note: Make sure you do all this AFTER they cut your hair :) That's the same rule as ... Never insult the waiter before the main course is served. Chris Santerre System Admin and SARE/URIBL Ninja http://www.rulesemporium.com http://www.uribl.com -- Martin
Re: Confession and rage
Stewart, John wrote: Well, I just got a call from the person at the store who is responsible for setting up the technical side of things. It was not a good conversation. I recall a telephone solicitation ... I was getting calls from a cemetery about their great real estate deals ... on the same unlisted telephone number that was setup for my father to use when he was visiting me. He was in his late 80's at the time ... I did NOT want him getting one of those calls. It took a call to my local Police Department to get that to stop. ... but only for 6 months!!! One day, I got a call from them, but from a different phone number ... one that someone answered. I'll just have to let you guess how much fun my return call was for them. The sad thing was that they claimed that it wasn't their fault ... they gave the abysmally poor, lame, stupid, feckless, otiose excuse that the software in the autodialer cleared the 'Do Not Call' list every 6 months. I generously pointed out that in that case they should expect to loose a lawsuit every 6 months. ... And furthermore, that while I could sue them in small claims court without an attorney, since they were a corporation, they would be required to bring their attorney to each court appearance ... or risk a contempt of court citation ... AND have to pay their attorney. That's when those harassing calls stopped. Forever. [NOTE: those terms, abysmally poor, lame, feckless, otiose, are all real words ... when you LART someone with those and they ask what they mean ... get them to use a dictionary ... imagine someone having the dictonary tell them they are stupid in 4 or 5 different ways. g] I was very calm (until the end) and tried to explain why it was a bad idea, what they needed to do to make it work ethically, etc, how they could handle it in a way that would be better for them. Basically, she said that they couldn't do anything about it, it was just a feature of the software they use, and she suggested I not use the online reservation system, and should just send their emails into the spam filter. I'm certainly going to report them to RBLs. I'm trying to resist the urge to sign up multiple email addresses on their spam list (no validation whatsoever; you simply enter an email address and name, and that person is added to the list). Of course you can't do that. Besides being wrong ... it would violate your ISP's TOS/AUP ... and you would have no defense. That having been said ... I recall a time in about 1994 when I was subscribed to the cypherpunks eMail list (where I learned a lot about netiquette). One day, I got a copy of the welcome message ... and another copy of the welcome message ... and then a question about that welcome message followed by another copy of the question ... followed by ... it looked as if _everyone_ got a copy of that, and another, and ... Then I saw these 3 messages ... Damn! Someone subscribed the list to itself! A curse on them!!! ... and finally ... And a recurse on them! johnS -- Martin
