Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
Don Saklad wrote on 20/04/21 3:36 am: How do you set nomail for the List? I can't tell if any of the replies to your query actually answered your question because of the various interpretations of "nomail" and the way the thread expanded into a discussion of other mailing list policies. If by "nomail" you are asking about how to be able to post mail to the list without having the list sent to your email address, here is an authoritative answer. I am one of the moderators of this mailing list. To post to this mailing list, you must send your mail from an address that is subscribed to the list. This protects the list from spam and protects subscribers from accidentally sending mail to the list from a private address, exposing it to harvesting by spammers. You can subscribe additional addresses for posting, without receiving another copy of list posts by sending an email from each address to users-allow-subscribe AT spamassassin.apache.org If you read the mailing list using an archiving service on the Web such as Nabble that posts on your behalf using your email address, subscribe that address using users-allow-subscribe as described above. Regards, Sidney
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
Michael Grant wrote: > > > After all, if just anyone, without subscription, can post to a list, then > > > it's > > > open to the entire Internet, and then, as we all know, anarchy ensues... > > The Debian mailing lists too are open for anyone to post regardless if > they are subscribed. Sorry but I don't understand. Because the Debian lists are open and do allow anyone to post there. I'll stipulate that as a fact unless it is refuted. I have become less involved the last few years and perhaps after decades there has been a change? > It's not anarchy but sometimes spam does get posted Yes. Sometimes a spam message will get posted. But it is infrequent enough that it does not cause serious problems. > and some people go and report it to places like spamcop (I've been > guilty here!). Agreed. And understood. That is rather a separate philosophical problem. Being on the mailing list side it feels wrong for people to subscribe to something and then report it to 3rd parties as abuse. In general I don't think any mailing list that someone has subscribed to should have messages from there reported as spam to 3rd parties. Instead I think they should complain (loudly) to the mailing list administrator(s). Get them motivated to improve their policies! An occasional spam is almost inevitable as 1) everything has a non-zero error rate and 2) spammers are humans and humans are very clever. But there is no need to make it easy for them. For my own subscriptions I don't run any mailing list messages to my personal mailbox through SpamAssasssin. I file mailing list messages directly and if there is spam then I will see it. And I will complain about it. (For me the chiark lists are the most problematic in this regard. I would have mentioned them as a 3rd example of open lists but in their case they are a bad example due to lack of anti-spam.) > Debian has a mechanism to flag messages as spam in the archives so > they can be removed. It's far from anarchy that imagine but it's > definitely not zero labor. They claim that it is not very difficult however and they encourage the reporting of it. Therefore I always report spam to them when I see it. Removing spam from the archives prevents a site from being flagged by search engines as harboring malicious content. And reporting spam allows them to keep their anti-spam rules trained up on new attacks. So regardless of the effort on the list admin side it has become a required thing to do. > For me the biggest problem with allowing non-subscribers or > subscribers that don't get mail back from the list is that there is no > way for someone to know if you are reading their replies. I'm never > sure if I should CC the person directly or not on these open lists. > > On the Spamassassin list, I know the person has to be subscribed so I > don't have to CC them. Agreed! And I think this is the strongest argument brought up so far! It makes knowing how to respond easy. And frankly I often cheat on other lists by looking at who is subscribed which is not information available to everyone. Therefore knowing absolutely that one should only ever respond to the list is a good thing. I contemplated pulling this point up to the top and leading with it as I think it is an excellent point for usability of mailing lists. However I note that on this list it does not prevent people from CC'ing anyway. :-( > I doubt most mailing lists are smart enough to CC such > non-subscribers on replies. I don't know of any mailing list that CC's non-subscribers. But that's often desired by the people who post but read an archive of the list instead of being subscribed to it. They are neither subscribed nor do they want a CC either. Unless they have specifically asked for one to be sent to them. > Multiple people I know join lists and then create a filter rule to put > the list directly in to the Trash folder or some folder that they > automatically delete older messages. Then, they read the lists in > that folder. That may be your best option in my opinion. I do that! :-) Or rather I file mailing list messages to a folder, automatically expire them, and read the messages from that folder. It's rather like a newsgroup in flow doing it that way. > A hack comes to mind... maybe something could be written using sieve > or procmail to spot which messages you sent to the list and move them > and replies to it back to your inbox automatically. For the Debian lists that works because they are consistently configured across all of the lists. And actually what you suggest is very similar to something Brian suggested there during a discussion we were having on this very idea! This message and another one after it in the thread you might find at least academically interesting. :-) https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/03/msg00571.html For Mailman lists this is problematic because individually different lists have a "No duplicates" setting where if Mailman th
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
@lbutlr wrote: > On 20 Apr 2021, at 18:29, Bob Proulx wrote: > > Hmm... No. I disagree. It's not if-one-then-the-other. All that is > > needed to disprove it is one example. And as it happens I can list > > two immediately. > > Which does nothing to disprove "most mailing list require subscription" which > is absolutely true. You lost sync and switched topics. My statement that you quoted had nothing to say about whether the list required subscription or not. My statement was refuting the part I had quoted. >>> After all, if just anyone, without subscription, can post to a list, then >>> it's >>> open to the entire Internet, and then, as we all know, anarchy ensues... That's the statement I was refuting. Bob
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
> After all, if just anyone, without subscription, can post to a list, then it's > open to the entire Internet, and then, as we all know, anarchy ensues... But, but, but... SpamAssassin's entire purpose is an anti-spam function! Oh the irony of it! On 21.04.21 06:41, Michael Grant wrote: The Debian mailing lists too are open for anyone to post regardless if they are subscribed. It's not anarchy but sometimes spam does get posted and some people go and report it to places like spamcop (I've been guilty here!). Debian has a mechanism to flag messages as spam in the archives so they can be removed. It's far from anarchy that imagine but it's definitely not zero labor. For me the biggest problem with allowing non-subscribers or subscribers that don't get mail back from the list is that there is no way for someone to know if you are reading their replies. I'm never sure if I should CC the person directly or not on these open lists. imho you should never reply or Cc: personally unless the person asks for it. The point of mailing lists is to discuss issues there. Person posting to mailing list with public archives can browse them. On the Spamassassin list, I know the person has to be subscribed so I don't have to CC them. I doubt most mailing lists are smart enough to CC such non-subscribers on replies. I don't think it's issue of mailing lists, it should be issue of posters. -- Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uh...@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/ Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address. Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu. The only substitute for good manners is fast reflexes.
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
> But, but, but... SpamAssassin's entire purpose is an anti-spam > function! Oh the irony of it! > > > After all, if just anyone, without subscription, can post to a list, then > > it's > > open to the entire Internet, and then, as we all know, anarchy ensues... The Debian mailing lists too are open for anyone to post regardless if they are subscribed. It's not anarchy but sometimes spam does get posted and some people go and report it to places like spamcop (I've been guilty here!). Debian has a mechanism to flag messages as spam in the archives so they can be removed. It's far from anarchy that imagine but it's definitely not zero labor. For me the biggest problem with allowing non-subscribers or subscribers that don't get mail back from the list is that there is no way for someone to know if you are reading their replies. I'm never sure if I should CC the person directly or not on these open lists. On the Spamassassin list, I know the person has to be subscribed so I don't have to CC them. I doubt most mailing lists are smart enough to CC such non-subscribers on replies. Multiple people I know join lists and then create a filter rule to put the list directly in to the Trash folder or some folder that they automatically delete older messages. Then, they read the lists in that folder. That may be your best option in my opinion. A hack comes to mind... maybe something could be written using sieve or procmail to spot which messages you sent to the list and move them and replies to it back to your inbox automatically. Michael Grant signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
On 20 Apr 2021, at 18:29, Bob Proulx wrote: > Hmm... No. I disagree. It's not if-one-then-the-other. All that is > needed to disprove it is one example. And as it happens I can list > two immediately. Which does nothing to disprove "most mailing list require subscription" which is absolutely true. -- The omnipotent eyesight of various supernatural entities is often remarked upon. It is said that they can see the fall of every sparrow. And this may be true. But there is only one who is always there when it hits the ground. --Hogfather
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
Antony Stone wrote: > Bob Proulx wrote: > > I was not aware that this mailing list requires one to be subscribed > > to post to it. Does it? It's not necessary on most technical mailing > > lists. > > I would in fact say the exact opposite: most mailing lists do > require subscription in order to post, primarily in order to reduce > spam from random addresses. But, but, but... SpamAssassin's entire purpose is an anti-spam function! Oh the irony of it! > After all, if just anyone, without subscription, can post to a list, then > it's > open to the entire Internet, and then, as we all know, anarchy ensues... Hmm... No. I disagree. It's not if-one-then-the-other. All that is needed to disprove it is one example. And as it happens I can list two immediately. So as it happens I am actually one of the anti-spam admins for the lists.gnu.org mailing lists. There are some 1,500+ mailing lists there. Most of them are bug reporting mailing lists. Requiring people to subscribe to a mailing list in order to make a report would be much too burdensome. Therefore the bug reporting lists are open lists and anyone may post there and it does not require subscriptions. I know that many will argue that there is nothing but chaos and anarchy there but there is very little spam on the mailing lists! (If people do see spam there I welcome reports so that problem can get addressed. Send reports to the mailman AT gnu.org address please.) One of the major components of the anti-spam to those mailing lists is SpamAssassin. Plus some additional things too of course. Secondly the Debian project mailing lists are extensive and extremely active too. The Debian lists are all open lists. Anyone may post to them. Many do! I am not directly involved there but I have been a long time community participant. If we can do it then why can't SpamAssassin do it for itelf? Don't answer as that's a rhetorical question. I already know the answer. The answer is because SpamAssassin is using the Apache Software Foundation infrastructure and Apache isn't operating their mailing lists that way. The SpamAssassin group could do things differently from Apache if they wanted to do so but using the Apache infrastructure has advantages and that is why they moved under that umbrella in the first place. And closed mailing lists are just one of the trade-offs of that decision and it is okay. Bob
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
On Tuesday 20 April 2021 at 23:27:14, Bob Proulx wrote: > I was not aware that this mailing list requires one to be subscribed > to post to it. Does it? It's not necessary on most technical mailing > lists. I would in fact say the exact opposite: most mailing lists do require subscription in order to post, primarily in order to reduce spam from random addresses. After all, if just anyone, without subscription, can post to a list, then it's open to the entire Internet, and then, as we all know, anarchy ensues... At least if you have to subscribe first: a) the subscription process itself is a barrier to bots b) a list admin can block unwanted posters. Antony. -- I know I always wanted to be somebody, but I guess I should have been more specific. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
Antony Stone wrote: > Incidentally, I had no idea what "a pre-mangled address for the web archive > readers" meant. You are the second person to mention this, the first in a direct message to me. Which means there will be many. Sorry. Let me explain. Due to too much caution about spammers harvesting email addresses from web pages most web mailing list archives block display of anything that looks similar to an email address. I say similar because often false positives are a problem. Which is super annoying! While I am still reading email with an actual mail reader (I am using mutt) I know that the majority of all email users today are using a web-mail interface to email. And many of those people are using mailing list archives to read mailing lists. Therefore I try to write with that reading interface of those other users in mind. This web archive hiding of anything that looks like an email address makes posting email addresses in responses to people more difficult than it should be. I happen to be aware of the problem and sensitive to the breakage and therefore, when I remember to do so, I try to include both the address written plain as it should be and also encoded in the typical way for a human to be able to read it and reconstruct it back into the original. Here are some examples of my message with the email address hidden, obscured, "mangled" by the web mail readers, for the archives listed for this mailing list. So that you can see the problem that is being addressed by including both a plain email address and also a human readable but encoded address to avoid the hiding. says "[hidden email]" http://spamassassin.1065346.n5.nabble.com/How-do-you-set-nomail-for-the-List-td161302.html says "users-unsubscr...@spamassassin.apache.org" with those dots mangling it https://www.mail-archive.com/users@spamassassin.apache.org/msg108060.html says "user...@spamassassin.apache.org" again with different dots mangling it https://markmail.org/search/list:org.apache.spamassassin.users#query:list%3Aorg.apache.spamassassin.users+page:1+mid:5tjzft7smag2433m+state:results Meanwhile other archives show the message plain. https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spamassassin-users/202104.mbox/browser https://marc.info/?l=spamassassin-users&m=161893573926245&w=2 Sorry for perhaps obscure and confusing reference to "pre-mangling" it. I meant I was going to get ahead of the web archive manglers and do it myself so that my "pre-mangled" version would be left un-mangled and therefore still readable and possible to reconstruct. And also even though the OP was asking the question that means there are many more people who would like to know the answer to it too who are wanting to know but not wanting to ask. And some of them will use the web to search for wisdom and find one of the above email archives. If they find a good archive without mangling then they have their answer. If they find a bad archive that mangles then they are left still looking. However in this case, hopefully, my answer is still useful to them even on a bad archive as they can assemble it themselves. https://xkcd.com/979/ Hopefully that explains what I meant there! :-) Bob
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
RW wrote: > I think the question was getting no mail without unsubscribing and > losing the ability to post. This is useful if you read a list by other > means, e.g. via NNTP. I was not aware that this mailing list requires one to be subscribed to post to it. Does it? It's not necessary on most technical mailing lists. I look now at the help file for the apache.org mailing lists and do not find any way to set a "nomail" option (which some other mailing list management software provides). Therefore I think there is no feature to do it. The help file only lists unsubscription. Since it has become part of the discussion I will include the help file at the end. As to your specific case question I can only find this infomration on it and it appears that primarily it requires the list owner to manually handle things. https://www.ezmlm.org/manual/Unsubscribing.html 1.4.1 Posting from an alternative address when post are allowed only to subscribers. When a list is set up to allow posts from subscribers only(*), a post from an address ('jon...@softx.com') may be rejected since this address is not a subscriber (even though mail to the subscriber 'j...@univ.edu' reaches you, ezmlm has no way of knowing this). The easiest way to deal with this is to unsubscribe 'j...@univ.edu' and subscribe 'jon...@softx.com'. If this is not possible/desirable, send the addresses in question with a note to 'mailinglist-ow...@example.org'. The list owner can add your sender address (in this case 'jon...@softx.com') to an extra address lists of non-subscribers allowed to post (and access the archive). The extra addresses are kept in a database much like subscriber addresses. In fact, you can add the address 'jon...@softx.com' as an alias for the list 'mailingl...@example.org' by mailing 'mailinglist-allow-subscribe-jonesj=softx@example.org' and replying to the confirmation request. Again, you're changing the "target" address of the request from the default (the sender address) by adding the target to the command with the '@' replaced by '='. Of course, the "allow" list doesn't send out posts. It is solely a vehicle for storing "allowed" aliases. That last paragraph (I reformated it into these paragraphs for readability) is not clear to me and I do not understand it. But this next makes it clear that it can only be done by an administrator. https://www.ezmlm.org/manual/Adding-Aliases.html 2.4 Adding subscriber aliases(*). ezmlm lists may be set up to only allow subscribers to send messages to the list. This is less secure than moderation, but still keeps most "garbage" off the list. Occasionally, a user may wish to send messages from an address other than the subscription address. As a remote administrator, you can add the user's alias to a special "allow" database. To add 'j...@example.net' as an alias to the 'mailingl...@example.org', send mail to 'mailinglist-allow-subscribe-john=example@example.org'. -unsubscribe and other commands work the same way. The messages ezmlm sends talk about the 'mailinglist-al...@example.org' mailing list, but of course you know that this is just a figure of speech. On lists that do not have subscription moderation, users can add themselves to the "allow" database in the same way. This is documented only briefly in the USER'S manual. Archive access may also be restricted to subscribers. Like subscribers of the list or the digest list, addresses in the "allow" database are allowed to access the archive. Therefore it seems that unsubscribing is the only action a user may take to avoid receiving email. The above requires the mailing list owner to take action. Bob Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the users@spamassassin.apache.org mailing list. This is a generic help message. The message I received wasn't sent to any of my command addresses. --- Administrative commands for the users list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: To subscribe to the list, send a message to: To remove your address from the list, send a message to: Send mail to the following for info and FAQ for this list: Similar addresses exist for the digest list: To get messages 123 through 145 (a maximum of 100 per request), mail: To get an index with subject and author for messages 123-456 , mail: They are always returned as sets of 100, max 2000 per request, so you'll actually get 100-499. To receive all messages with the same subject as message 12345, send a short message to: The messages should contain one line or word of text to avoid being treated as sp@m, but I will ignore their content. Only the ADDRESS you send to is important. You can start a subscription for an
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
On Tuesday 20 April 2021 at 22:54:29, RW wrote: > On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 10:21:57 -0600 Bob Proulx wrote: > > Don Saklad wrote: > > > How do you set nomail for the List? > > > > To unsubscribe send an email message to this address. Followed by a > > pre-mangled address for the web archive readers that hide email > > addresses. > > > > users-unsubscr...@spamassassin.apache.org > > I think the question was getting no mail without unsubscribing and > losing the ability to post. This is useful if you read a list by other > means, e.g. via NNTP. I thought the question was for someone being away for some time and not wanting to build up list emails which wouldn't be replied to, and therefore probably also wouldn't be worth reading upon the return. mailman supports this on its web interface; I can't see the equivalent function on what this list runs on. Incidentally, I had no idea what "a pre-mangled address for the web archive readers" meant. Antony. -- "Can you keep a secret?" "Well, I shouldn't really tell you this, but... no." Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me.
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 10:21:57 -0600 Bob Proulx wrote: > Don Saklad wrote: > > How do you set nomail for the List? > > To unsubscribe send an email message to this address. Followed by a > pre-mangled address for the web archive readers that hide email > addresses. > > users-unsubscr...@spamassassin.apache.org I think the question was getting no mail without unsubscribing and losing the ability to post. This is useful if you read a list by other means, e.g. via NNTP.
Re: How do you set nomail for the List?
Don Saklad wrote: > How do you set nomail for the List? To unsubscribe send an email message to this address. Followed by a pre-mangled address for the web archive readers that hide email addresses. users-unsubscr...@spamassassin.apache.org users-unsubscribe AT spamassassin DOT apache DOT org For general information about the mailing lists: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/SPAMASSASSIN/MailingLists Bob
How do you set nomail for the List?
How do you set nomail for the List?