Re: Getting Answers on the User List
On 4/18/08, Angelo Turetta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And why your hypothetical 1.0 need not to be compatible with 2.0, whereas just because Tapestry 4.0 is not compatible with 5.0 you feel like defending someone deliberately insulting Howard? In my humble opinion, Yura is not defending Rob, he/she's saying that Rob has some valid arguments. Rob is a troll because he always repeats the same arguments, some valid, some not, over and over. Yura is not a troll (at least not yet, hehehe :)) because he/she made some reasonable criticisms about Tapestry, not just bashing it mindlessly like Rob. -- Thiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting Answers on the User List
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. 2008/4/11, Rob Smeets [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And especially, Howard himself recently participates in the answering of questions. Thanks to the stiff competition out there in the webframework space that has triggered this. His ego went too high and I'm glad he is finally humbling himself. It's rather unfortunate he got awaken only after Tapestry's popularity, status and image have drastically diminished in the community. Many high profile Tapestry users have dissapeared and have embrased really compelling frameworks such as Wicket. Take for example Kent Tong, the former Tapestry commiter. He has now even written a book on Wicket. Another example is Geoff Longman, the creator of Spindle who left and embrased GWT. I can go on and on and on. Tapestry is now just another dead horse, I'm sorry. Your's friendly, Rob On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's what I'm talkin' about! Francois Armand wrote: Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Just want to say thanks to everyone whose providing answers and support on the users list. I'm really impressed by how much Tapestry 5 knowledge is out there. Not to forget the irc channel on freenode: #tapestry ;) -- http://thegodcode.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting Answers on the User List
And especially, Howard himself recently participates in the answering of questions. Thanks to the stiff competition out there in the webframework space that has triggered this. His ego went too high and I'm glad he is finally humbling himself. It's rather unfortunate he got awaken only after Tapestry's popularity, status and image have drastically diminished in the community. Many high profile Tapestry users have dissapeared and have embrased really compelling frameworks such as Wicket. Take for example Kent Tong, the former Tapestry commiter. He has now even written a book on Wicket. Another example is Geoff Longman, the creator of Spindle who left and embrased GWT. I can go on and on and on. Tapestry is now just another dead horse, I'm sorry. Your's friendly, Rob On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's what I'm talkin' about! Francois Armand wrote: Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Just want to say thanks to everyone whose providing answers and support on the users list. I'm really impressed by how much Tapestry 5 knowledge is out there. Not to forget the irc channel on freenode: #tapestry ;) -- http://thegodcode.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting Answers on the User List
Yawn. On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Rob Smeets [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And especially, Howard himself recently participates in the answering of questions. Thanks to the stiff competition out there in the webframework space that has triggered this. His ego went too high and I'm glad he is finally humbling himself. It's rather unfortunate he got awaken only after Tapestry's popularity, status and image have drastically diminished in the community. Many high profile Tapestry users have dissapeared and have embrased really compelling frameworks such as Wicket. Take for example Kent Tong, the former Tapestry commiter. He has now even written a book on Wicket. Another example is Geoff Longman, the creator of Spindle who left and embrased GWT. I can go on and on and on. Tapestry is now just another dead horse, I'm sorry. Your's friendly, Rob On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's what I'm talkin' about! Francois Armand wrote: Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Just want to say thanks to everyone whose providing answers and support on the users list. I'm really impressed by how much Tapestry 5 knowledge is out there. Not to forget the irc channel on freenode: #tapestry ;) -- http://thegodcode.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting Answers on the User List
Howard, Do like I do - just laugh at his remarks. At first I thought it was annoying, now I think they're actually quite funny. Not that they have any technical merit. -J. Yawn. On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Rob Smeets [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And especially, Howard himself recently participates in the answering of questions. Thanks to the stiff competition out there in the webframework space that has triggered this. His ego went too high and I'm glad he is finally humbling himself. It's rather unfortunate he got awaken only after Tapestry's popularity, status and image have drastically diminished in the community. Many high profile Tapestry users have dissapeared and have embrased really compelling frameworks such as Wicket. Take for example Kent Tong, the former Tapestry commiter. He has now even written a book on Wicket. Another example is Geoff Longman, the creator of Spindle who left and embrased GWT. I can go on and on and on. Tapestry is now just another dead horse, I'm sorry. Your's friendly, Rob On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's what I'm talkin' about! Francois Armand wrote: Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Just want to say thanks to everyone whose providing answers and support on the users list. I'm really impressed by how much Tapestry 5 knowledge is out there. Not to forget the irc channel on freenode: #tapestry ;) -- http://thegodcode.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting Answers on the User List
Take for example Kent Tong, the former Tapestry commiter. He has now even written a book on Wicket. ..and he has written yet another one on JSF after that. So clearly he must not like Wicket very much :o) Seriously though: I have used Tapestry 3 on several projects. I've used Tapestry 4 on several projects and I'm currently learning my way around Tapestry 5. Inbetween I've also done a couple of projects using Wicket. I think Wicket is much easier to learn, even than Tapestry 5. Howard often claims everything is easy in T5 and for him that's probably true. Not only is Howard very intelligent and talented, but he also knows everything there is to know about Tapestry. But T5 uses naming-conventions and annotations for methods, properties and parameters instead of simply extending a base-class. It also injects all kinds of stuff into the components using annotations and if you want to use a service, you'll have to know how to get to it. All of this means your IDE won't help you much when you get started and you have have to learn an awful lot (annotations, naming conventions, services and a little about the inner workings of Tapestry) before you can actually really build something other than an HelloWorld application. I still find myself going back to the documentation all the time. Once you have learned all those things though, Tapestry is extremely productive and powerful. And even though I claimed Wicket is much easier to learn, once I started creating more complex web-applications with it, I've also lost many days trying to figure out how I could make Wicket components do the things I wanted them to do and often I found that I was writing a lot of code for simple things (especially a lot of simple models, where Tapestry only expected me to write a getter on the page). You repeatedly stated that you don't like Tapestry. Mostly because of the lack of backward compatibility. I understand that and I have old projects in T3 and T4 as well and migrating them over to T5 would take months or even years. Supporting them requires knowledge of old versions of Tapestry. This is indeed a problem. But I also have customers that still have old applications written with plain servlets. Applications written with JSP's (and scriptlets) and applications written with Struts. I don't like those technologies but it's basically the same thing: Time moves on and so does technology. Old stuff that works doesn't get migrated simply because I happen to prefer the latest and greatest tools. I now prefer Wicket over T3 and T4, but I am starting to prefer T5 over Wicket again. Every framework has its pros and cons and fits a different audience and target. I have advised different customers to use Tapestry in one situation and Wicket in another (different projects, different requirements). They are all still happy with those choices. Each framework has its place and is just another tool in your toolbox. You can choose to either use Tapestry or to use something else. Just be glad that a group of people is willing to share their work with the rest of world. Frameworks like Click or Wicket probably wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for Tapestry. And Tapestry 5 probably would have looked different if Wicket and Rails hadn't been around. All frameworks are important because they push innovation, making each other a little better over time. regards, Onno
RE: Getting Answers on the User List
Rob, You're here! I was getting concerned when you didn't reply to my question on another thread. I feared that some tragedy had befallen you. It would be impolite of you to simply disregard a simple question. So, back to the fundamental and simple question... Given that you have no intention of using Tapestry for serious work, you do not give assistance to users, nor do you request assistance from other users, why do you post to this list? It's an odd hobby. Jonathan -Original Message- From: Rob Smeets [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 10:34 AM To: Tapestry users Subject: Re: Getting Answers on the User List And especially, Howard himself recently participates in the answering of questions. Thanks to the stiff competition out there in the webframework space that has triggered this. His ego went too high and I'm glad he is finally humbling himself. It's rather unfortunate he got awaken only after Tapestry's popularity, status and image have drastically diminished in the community. Many high profile Tapestry users have dissapeared and have embrased really compelling frameworks such as Wicket. Take for example Kent Tong, the former Tapestry commiter. He has now even written a book on Wicket. Another example is Geoff Longman, the creator of Spindle who left and embrased GWT. I can go on and on and on. Tapestry is now just another dead horse, I'm sorry. Your's friendly, Rob On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Chris Lewis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's what I'm talkin' about! Francois Armand wrote: Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Just want to say thanks to everyone whose providing answers and support on the users list. I'm really impressed by how much Tapestry 5 knowledge is out there. Not to forget the irc channel on freenode: #tapestry ;) -- http://thegodcode.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Getting Answers on the User List
Great post Onno! +1 Like Jan, I also find Rob pretty amusing. You never know, maybe one day his messages about the version incompatibilities will help someone who has somehow managed to miss the statements on the Tapestry site, however unlikely that might be. Take for example Kent Tong, the former Tapestry commiter. He has now even written a book on Wicket. ..and he has written yet another one on JSF after that. So clearly he must not like Wicket very much :o) Seriously though: I have used Tapestry 3 on several projects. I've used Tapestry 4 on several projects and I'm currently learning my way around Tapestry 5. Inbetween I've also done a couple of projects using Wicket. I think Wicket is much easier to learn, even than Tapestry 5. Howard often claims everything is easy in T5 and for him that's probably true. Not only is Howard very intelligent and talented, but he also knows everything there is to know about Tapestry. But T5 uses naming-conventions and annotations for methods, properties and parameters instead of simply extending a base-class. It also injects all kinds of stuff into the components using annotations and if you want to use a service, you'll have to know how to get to it. All of this means your IDE won't help you much when you get started and you have have to learn an awful lot (annotations, naming conventions, services and a little about the inner workings of Tapestry) before you can actually really build something other than an HelloWorld application. I still find myself going back to the documentation all the time. Once you have learned all those things though, Tapestry is extremely productive and powerful. And even though I claimed Wicket is much easier to learn, once I started creating more complex web-applications with it, I've also lost many days trying to figure out how I could make Wicket components do the things I wanted them to do and often I found that I was writing a lot of code for simple things (especially a lot of simple models, where Tapestry only expected me to write a getter on the page). You repeatedly stated that you don't like Tapestry. Mostly because of the lack of backward compatibility. I understand that and I have old projects in T3 and T4 as well and migrating them over to T5 would take months or even years. Supporting them requires knowledge of old versions of Tapestry. This is indeed a problem. But I also have customers that still have old applications written with plain servlets. Applications written with JSP's (and scriptlets) and applications written with Struts. I don't like those technologies but it's basically the same thing: Time moves on and so does technology. Old stuff that works doesn't get migrated simply because I happen to prefer the latest and greatest tools. I now prefer Wicket over T3 and T4, but I am starting to prefer T5 over Wicket again. Every framework has its pros and cons and fits a different audience and target. I have advised different customers to use Tapestry in one situation and Wicket in another (different projects, different requirements). They are all still happy with those choices. Each framework has its place and is just another tool in your toolbox. You can choose to either use Tapestry or to use something else. Just be glad that a group of people is willing to share their work with the rest of world. Frameworks like Click or Wicket probably wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for Tapestry. And Tapestry 5 probably would have looked different if Wicket and Rails hadn't been around. All frameworks are important because they push innovation, making each other a little better over time. regards, Onno - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting Answers on the User List
A big hello and thanks to Rob! Reading this post it came to my mind through Rob's playing the devils advocate here he is really improving this user-list's community. And there are one personal experience and one common though to share with you. 1. Personal experience with Wicket Long before I knew of Tapestry I was evaluating webframeworks. I came from cocoon, which in fact was and is a web-publishing-framework but back in 2000 nobody cared about that. Huge efforts where made to make it a webframework and doing simple webapps was a real PITA. Through a collegue of mine I found Wicket and from reading the marketing stuff on their page - they where the first framework that had this comparison matrix online - I found it interesting and started to evaluate. Hello world was easy and also the demo application was quite interesting. When you have some experience with browser applications you usually have ideas on what you need and so I tried to make my first own Wicket app. Things got nasty, documentation was not present and my claim was to not follow another mailing list. Though Eclipse would help me with the Java part the concepts of Wicket haven't been connected with what I see as the basis - HTML. Finally I dropped it. The quickstart was to hard to take for me. Compare this to Tapestry 5! You get 5 screencasts that speed you up in an instant. The maven quickstart where you immediately can start your own work. I was really impressed. Project Layout is well documented, the concept is HTML visible/ invisible instrumented, so 50% of the lease already payed! Every Java programmer knows Beans and the IOC concept in 2007 is not new. Of course the deeper you step into the framework the more fancy things you have to learn. One ambivalent thing is this magical javassist stuff. On the one side - not sure if this is the technical reason - it helps you keep your code clean. I like @Property annotation because I see no intellectual challenge in generating getters and setters. The price is payed in debugging where paramters get set somehow invisible. Anyway, compared to Wicket or Struts and Cocoon I need the debugger in 5% of the time I used to use it back then! Besides T5 notedly supports you in getting a clear cut between business and web logic so the tiers can be developed completely separate. 2. A common thought One marketing problem of T5 as I see it is it's superb readyness. It really is easy to develop applications with it after you learned the basics - and that's easy too, thanks to the user-list (!) and the nightly-docs(!). Let me give you an example. I have a contact form for my webpage developed with Spring MVC. When I decided to switch to T5 I let it live side by side. Yesterday I decided to write the T5 version of it. I think it was done in 10 minutes. Ok, I of course reused the spring stuff through IoC. But isn't that cool to? Back to the readiness. Because T5 is so ready, users usually do their thing with it. And it was said on the list some weeks before when an insult from Rob was shaking this list for the very first time. But think of it. We also have to market T5. Not only to our bosses or clients and programmer collegues but also in the huge webframework market. And to do that we need some flesh - this is the user stories. So honestly Rob, thank you for your razor-sharp comments. Somehow you are able to awake us to make the next step for T5 in a bright future. My 2 cents, Michael Onno Scheffers schrieb: Take for example Kent Tong, the former Tapestry commiter. He has now even written a book on Wicket. ..and he has written yet another one on JSF after that. So clearly he must not like Wicket very much :o) regards, Onno - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting Answers on the User List
Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Just want to say thanks to everyone whose providing answers and support on the users list. I'm really impressed by how much Tapestry 5 knowledge is out there. Not to forget the irc channel on freenode: #tapestry ;) -- Francois Armand Etudes Développements J2EE Groupe Linagora - http://www.linagora.com Tél.: +33 (0)1 58 18 68 28 --- InterLDAP - http://interldap.org FederID - http://www.federid.org/ Open Source identities management and federation - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting Answers on the User List
That's what I'm talkin' about! Francois Armand wrote: Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Just want to say thanks to everyone whose providing answers and support on the users list. I'm really impressed by how much Tapestry 5 knowledge is out there. Not to forget the irc channel on freenode: #tapestry ;) -- http://thegodcode.net - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Getting Answers on the User List
Hi Howard, Tapestry mailing is a very active forum, I learned a lot from it, answers are usually relevant. second to this is is, usenet's java language, you will get more answers than you need, lately I asked a simple question and I got 125 responses, and the number still growing: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.java.programmer/browse_thread/thread/cb4d31b429fdb02a?hl=en# Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Just want to say thanks to everyone whose providing answers and support on the users list. I'm really impressed by how much Tapestry 5 knowledge is out there. Many hands make light work. Keep up the great effort! -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator Apache Tapestry and Apache HiveMind - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Getting-Answers-on-the-User-List-tp16595432p16601549.html Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
