Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Ball, James (jmb4aw)]

Excellent!  Glad you want to play.  I was proposing a pricing model as a new 
paradigm for doing business rather than something that's more of a limited time 
special offer.  No titles from the last two years, order in by Labor Day?  
Still, let's talk on Tuesday when I get back to the office.

Matt

__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812

On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:45 PM, "Meredith Miller" 
mailto:mered...@icarusfilms.com>> wrote:

Hi Matt,

We’ll play! By my calculations your offer means, based on your purchases from 
us last year, that you are ready to order 290 titles from us for $60 each (and 
without PPR).  Our only stipulations would be a) no titles from this or last 
year, and b) place your order before Labor Day!

Deal?

Meredith Miller
Icarus Films
32 Court St, 21st Floor
Brooklyn, NY 11201
P: 1.718.488.8900
F: 1.718.488.8642
E:  
mered...@icarusfilms.com
www.icarusfilms.com
www.twitter.com/icarusfilms
www.facebook.com/icarusfilms







From: 
videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu 
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James (jmb4aw)
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 12:39 PM
To: mailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible 
pricing.  Who else is interested?

Matt

__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812

On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, "Ball, James (jmb4aw)" 
<jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu>
 wrote:
"If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they 
will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a 
pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance."


It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, 
but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial.  It 
is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few 
distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 
with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year 
than I did from the other distributors.


As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise.  And I'm even 
flexible on the price.  How about $60.00 with no PPR?


Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too.  Anybody want to take a test drive?


Matt




__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812

On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, "Jessica Rosner" 
<jessicapros...@gmail.com>
 wrote:
Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies 
at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never 
happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not 
otherwise, but  many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and 
they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also 
require a lot more time & money from a company and the real kicker is they 
would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order 
for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies 
since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price.
Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle 
ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I 
believe it was something  $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per 
title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200   at $50 each( or less as a 
set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. 
Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I 
thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold 
them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the 
institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some 
that would not have.

If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they 
will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a 
pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be 
especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is 
just not realistic for the vast majority of educational

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?

[Ball, James (jmb4aw)]

Hi Larry,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful 
response.  You'll find my comments below.

As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get
our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to
buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time,
we  think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which
reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more
films, so you'll have more than  "Twilight" to buy.   

MATT SAYS: 
I'm on board with that.

So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind. 

1. I trust "Twilight" is not widely used in the curriculum of the
University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen
what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and,
if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media
for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to
buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10
to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00
for an i-Tunes.

MATT SAYS:  
Actually, we have Twilight and Glee because they were requested by faculty for 
their classes.  Even if students are required to purchase copies of required 
videos we would still likely purchase copies for the library's collection if 
they aligned with UVa's curricular priorities.  I'm so bad at analogies, but 
maybe it's akin to having copies of Jane Eyre and The Bluest Eye in the library 
even though it's easy, cheap, and likely that students will buy them for 
themselves.  As librarians, our mission is to collect, preserve, and provide 
access to "the cultural record," not to sound too high-faulted(sp), and with a 
media studies department that means collecting all kinds of things.

2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts
(to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their
parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious
educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license
300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price
at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in
the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a
$150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time
more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than
economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? 

MATT SAYS: 
LOL, don't get me started on valuing print more than video, or anything more 
than video for that matter.  And as for why students and their larents are 
willing to lay for some things but not others, that's as big a mystery to me as 
it is to you.

As for cost-per-use, I try to save that kind of calculus for database 
subscriptions rather than for items that the library purchases outright.  As i 
mentioned, part of our mission as librarians, and my mission as the head of a 
media center, is to collect and preserve the "cultural record," regardless of 
it's perceived value or how often it's used.  However, I have a limited budget 
so the more expensive an item is the more I do think about how much use it 
might get.  Which is exactly my point.  When something costs $30.00 I'm less 
likely to worry about that than if it costs $300.00.

3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph,
(in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection "just in case" someone
needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that
case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per
screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe
that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to
pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but
unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by
hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference
collection.   

MATT SAYS:
This is not how libraries operate.  At least, not for items that the library 
owns outright.  We buy something and as many people who want to can check it 
out as many times as they want.  I've learned that many distributors *do* think 
in terms of cost-per-use, but it's simply not how we operate.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "for reference use."

4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90%
discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted
to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia
Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity
provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you
had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your
telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would
make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are
r

Re: [Videolib] videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 22

[Jonathan Miller]

Nice. I count four (4) so far - to keep the momentum going, I will cut the #
of orders required to only 50. 

 

So, just 46 to go!

 

JM

 

 

 

From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Deborah Benrubi
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 5:25 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 22

 

I'm in.

On 7/1/2011 2:13 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: 

Count me in.  97 left.
 
gary
 
 
 

Jon,
 
I pitched this to our Entymology Librarian, and we are in for "The Strange
Disappearance of Bees".  So 98 more to go for the $200 price? ;)  I don't
want to play my hand but one of our Entymology faculty, Dr. Marla Spivak,
just won a MacArthur Genius grant and I'm told we have this new Bee Lab to
study this monumental problem, so we will likely need to purchase the 3 or
4
bee disappearance films.   Come on folks, just need 98 more...  Jon, we'll
be in touch :-)
 
-Scott
 
 
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:04 PM,


wrote:
 

Send videolib mailing list submissions to
   videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
 
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
 
https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/video...@lists.berkeley.ed
u
 
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
   videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu
 
You can reach the person managing the list at
   videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu
 
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of videolib digest..."
 
 
Today's Topics:
 
  1. Re: Groupon suggestion.. (Linda Gottesman)
 
 
--
 
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 15:42:06 -0400
From: Linda Gottesman   
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Message-ID:  

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
 
 
In response to the Groupon suggestion and Gary's query, Filmakers
Library would love to participate. We'll put our heads together and
come up with a specific offer either for NMM or before, but consider
us interested!
 
Linda
 
 
 
On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:22 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote:
 

I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from
Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman
from WMM,
and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors
 
Gary
 
 
 

I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a
Vanity Fair
profile on Groupon.
 
I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with
current &
older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting
upset,
but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this
with new
releases would be a way to start.
 
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer  

wrote:
 

Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on
post.
I
am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica
reached
a
similar conclusion at the same time:
 
Just a thought experiment here...
 
I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially
lowered
costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices
would not
necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You
gotta give
us
video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for
creative
solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the
spirit of
Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for
Indies/educational media.
 
Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of
Bees
is
$200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if
needed).
Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50
units,
offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any given
point,
and
only once a year.  Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the
academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for
promotion
and
maintenance).
 
Thoughts?
 
-Scott
 
--
Scott Spicer
Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian
University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities
341 Walter Library
spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
 
 
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
issues
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
control,
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
libraries
and
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
effective
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
communication
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
distributors.
 
 

 
 
--
Jessica Rosner
Media Consultant
224-545-3897 (c

Re: [Videolib] videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 22

[Deborah Benrubi]

  
  
I'm in.

On 7/1/2011 2:13 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote:

  Count me in.  97 left.

gary




  
Jon,

I pitched this to our Entymology Librarian, and we are in for "The Strange
Disappearance of Bees".  So 98 more to go for the $200 price? ;)  I don't
want to play my hand but one of our Entymology faculty, Dr. Marla Spivak,
just won a MacArthur Genius grant and I'm told we have this new Bee Lab to
study this monumental problem, so we will likely need to purchase the 3 or
4
bee disappearance films.   Come on folks, just need 98 more...  Jon, we'll
be in touch :-)

-Scott


On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:04 PM, 
wrote:



  Send videolib mailing list submissions to
   videolib@lists.berkeley.edu

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkeley.edu

or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
   videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu

You can reach the person managing the list at
   videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of videolib digest..."


Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Groupon suggestion.. (Linda Gottesman)


--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 15:42:06 -0400
From: Linda Gottesman 
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


In response to the Groupon suggestion and Gary's query, Filmakers
Library would love to participate. We'll put our heads together and
come up with a specific offer either for NMM or before, but consider
us interested!

Linda



On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:22 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote:


  
I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from
Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman
from WMM,
and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors

Gary





  I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a
Vanity Fair
profile on Groupon.

I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with
current &
older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting
upset,
but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this
with new
releases would be a way to start.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer 
wrote:


  
Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on
post.
I
am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica
reached
a
similar conclusion at the same time:

Just a thought experiment here...

I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially
lowered
costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices
would not
necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You
gotta give
us
video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for
creative
solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the
spirit of
Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for
Indies/educational media.

Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of
Bees
is
$200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if
needed).
Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50
units,
offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any given
point,
and
only once a year.  Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the
academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for
promotion
and
maintenance).

Thoughts?

-Scott

--
Scott Spicer
Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian
University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities
341 Walter Library
spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
issues
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
control,
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
libraries
and
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
effective
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
communication
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
distributors.



  
  

--
Jessica Rosner
Media Consultant
224-545-3897 (cell)
212-627-1785 (land line)
jessicapros...@gmail.com
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
acquisition,bibliographic
control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video
formats in
libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
serve
as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a
channel of
communication be

Re: [Videolib] videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 22

[ghandman]

Count me in.  97 left.

gary



> Jon,
>
> I pitched this to our Entymology Librarian, and we are in for "The Strange
> Disappearance of Bees".  So 98 more to go for the $200 price? ;)  I don't
> want to play my hand but one of our Entymology faculty, Dr. Marla Spivak,
> just won a MacArthur Genius grant and I'm told we have this new Bee Lab to
> study this monumental problem, so we will likely need to purchase the 3 or
> 4
> bee disappearance films.   Come on folks, just need 98 more...  Jon, we'll
> be in touch :-)
>
> -Scott
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:04 PM, 
> wrote:
>
>> Send videolib mailing list submissions to
>>videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>
>> https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of videolib digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. Re: Groupon suggestion.. (Linda Gottesman)
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 15:42:06 -0400
>> From: Linda Gottesman 
>> Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
>> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>> Message-ID: 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>
>> In response to the Groupon suggestion and Gary's query, Filmakers
>> Library would love to participate. We'll put our heads together and
>> come up with a specific offer either for NMM or before, but consider
>> us interested!
>>
>> Linda
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:22 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote:
>>
>> > I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from
>> > Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman
>> > from WMM,
>> > and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors
>> >
>> > Gary
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a
>> >> Vanity Fair
>> >> profile on Groupon.
>> >>
>> >> I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with
>> >> current &
>> >> older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting
>> >> upset,
>> >> but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this
>> >> with new
>> >> releases would be a way to start.
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on
>> >>> post.
>> >>> I
>> >>> am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica
>> >>> reached
>> >>> a
>> >>> similar conclusion at the same time:
>> >>>
>> >>> Just a thought experiment here...
>> >>>
>> >>> I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
>> >>> collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially
>> >>> lowered
>> >>> costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices
>> >>> would not
>> >>> necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You
>> >>> gotta give
>> >>> us
>> >>> video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for
>> >>> creative
>> >>> solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the
>> >>> spirit of
>> >>> Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for
>> >>> Indies/educational media.
>> >>>
>> >>> Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of
>> >>> Bees
>> >>> is
>> >>> $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if
>> >>> needed).
>> >>> Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50
>> >>> units,
>> >>> offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any given
>> >>> point,
>> >>> and
>> >>> only once a year.  Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the
>> >>> academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for
>> >>> promotion
>> >>> and
>> >>> maintenance).
>> >>>
>> >>> Thoughts?
>> >>>
>> >>> -Scott
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Scott Spicer
>> >>> Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian
>> >>> University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities
>> >>> 341 Walter Library
>> >>> spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
>> >>> Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
>> >>> SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> >>> issues
>> >>> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> >>> control,
>> >>> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
>> >>> libraries
>> >>> and
>> >>> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
>> >>> effective
>> >>> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
>> >>> communication
>> >>> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>> >>> distribut

Re: [Videolib] videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 22

[scott spicer]

Jon,

I pitched this to our Entymology Librarian, and we are in for "The Strange
Disappearance of Bees".  So 98 more to go for the $200 price? ;)  I don't
want to play my hand but one of our Entymology faculty, Dr. Marla Spivak,
just won a MacArthur Genius grant and I'm told we have this new Bee Lab to
study this monumental problem, so we will likely need to purchase the 3 or 4
bee disappearance films.   Come on folks, just need 98 more...  Jon, we'll
be in touch :-)

-Scott


On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:04 PM,  wrote:

> Send videolib mailing list submissions to
>videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
> https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of videolib digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Groupon suggestion.. (Linda Gottesman)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 15:42:06 -0400
> From: Linda Gottesman 
> Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> In response to the Groupon suggestion and Gary's query, Filmakers
> Library would love to participate. We'll put our heads together and
> come up with a specific offer either for NMM or before, but consider
> us interested!
>
> Linda
>
>
>
> On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:22 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote:
>
> > I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from
> > Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman
> > from WMM,
> > and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> >> I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a
> >> Vanity Fair
> >> profile on Groupon.
> >>
> >> I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with
> >> current &
> >> older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting
> >> upset,
> >> but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this
> >> with new
> >> releases would be a way to start.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on
> >>> post.
> >>> I
> >>> am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica
> >>> reached
> >>> a
> >>> similar conclusion at the same time:
> >>>
> >>> Just a thought experiment here...
> >>>
> >>> I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
> >>> collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially
> >>> lowered
> >>> costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices
> >>> would not
> >>> necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You
> >>> gotta give
> >>> us
> >>> video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for
> >>> creative
> >>> solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the
> >>> spirit of
> >>> Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for
> >>> Indies/educational media.
> >>>
> >>> Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of
> >>> Bees
> >>> is
> >>> $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if
> >>> needed).
> >>> Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50
> >>> units,
> >>> offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any given
> >>> point,
> >>> and
> >>> only once a year.  Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the
> >>> academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for
> >>> promotion
> >>> and
> >>> maintenance).
> >>>
> >>> Thoughts?
> >>>
> >>> -Scott
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Scott Spicer
> >>> Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian
> >>> University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities
> >>> 341 Walter Library
> >>> spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
> >>> Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
> >>> SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> >>> issues
> >>> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> >>> control,
> >>> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> >>> libraries
> >>> and
> >>> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
> >>> effective
> >>> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> >>> communication
> >>> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> >>> distributors.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jessica Rosner
> >> Media Consultant
> >> 224-545-3897 (cell)
> >> 212-627-1785 (land line)
> >> jessicapros...@gmail.com
> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encour

Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

[Linda Gottesman]

In response to the Groupon suggestion and Gary's query, Filmakers  
Library would love to participate. We'll put our heads together and  
come up with a specific offer either for NMM or before, but consider  
us interested!


Linda



On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:22 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote:


I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from
Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman  
from WMM,

and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors

Gary



I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a  
Vanity Fair

profile on Groupon.

I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with  
current &

older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting
upset,
but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this  
with new

releases would be a way to start.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer   
wrote:


Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on  
post.

I
am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica  
reached

a
similar conclusion at the same time:

Just a thought experiment here...

I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially
lowered
costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices  
would not
necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You  
gotta give

us
video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for  
creative
solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the  
spirit of

Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for
Indies/educational media.

Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of
Bees
is
$200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if  
needed).

Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50
units,
offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any given  
point,

and
only once a year.  Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the
academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for  
promotion

and
maintenance).

Thoughts?

-Scott

--
Scott Spicer
Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian
University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities
341 Walter Library
spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
issues
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
control,
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in  
libraries

and
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
effective
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of  
communication

between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
distributors.





--
Jessica Rosner
Media Consultant
224-545-3897 (cell)
212-627-1785 (land line)
jessicapros...@gmail.com
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
issues relating to the selection, evaluation,  
acquisition,bibliographic
control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video  
formats in
libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will  
serve
as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a  
channel of

communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
producers and distributors.




Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley

510-643-8566
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
--Francois Truffaut


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion  
of issues relating to the selection, evaluation,  
acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current  
and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions.  
It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool  
for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between  
libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and  
distributors.


Linda Gottesman
Filmakers Library, Inc.
124 E 40th Street
NY, NY  10016
212-808-4980
li...@filmakers.com





VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

[Videolib] Attend the National Media Market - negotiate video pricing

[Bergman, Barbara J]

Hi folks,
We seemed to have branched from circulation to pricing...

I'm throwing in a plug here encouraging folks to attend the National Media 
Market.  The NMM really is a great way to get to talk about these issues with 
librarians and video vendors.
It isn't the exhibit hall hell of ALA. You literally get to sit down and talk 
about your library's needs. Ask the vendors about discounts.  Most can't sell 
you new releases for $30, but most have room to negotiate.

http://nmm.net/

Barb Bergman | Media Services & Interlibrary Loan Librarian | Minnesota State 
University, Mankato | (507) 389-5945 | barbara.berg...@mnsu.edu
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?

[Steve Ladd]

Everyone,

This is a really important discussion to have that goes to the core 
of so much, though perhaps difficult to have it effectively on a 
listserv  -- and right before a long weekend.  We might need to take 
this into another forum to try to come up with some solutions that 
work for all  --   media librarians, distributors and producers.  All 
parties need to better understand the changing financial realities 
and other forces that we must adapt to.

I've worked with a number of  producers and distributors over the 
years, most recently The Video Project.  Pricing has always been a 
really troubling issue, as you know.  Many distributors have 
experimented with home video level pricing and it hasn't produced 
nearly enough return to warrant substantially reducing pricing. And 
now, there are new challenges with budget cuts, the web, digital 
options, and many producer opting for limited or full 
self-distribution (and not knowing what they're doing, in many cases, 
unfortunately).

I think it needs to be said that college and university media 
purchases have been the primary revenue base for smaller doc 
distributors.  In effect, they've supported the making and 
distribution of independent documentaries, not to mention being the 
lifeblood of distributors.  Without that base of support, I don't 
think we'd see for much longer the kind of documentaries that are 
currently being made. And it's already a serious challenge.  Few 
filmmakers ever make back the hundreds of thousands of dollars they 
may put into producing a film.

So, we need to come up with some collective solutions that will work 
for all parties.

Anyone have a suggestion for how and where we can best pursue this? 
NMM is one option of course. Maybe there could be some in person 
regional discussion before that.  And is there another online forum 
that would work better?

Best,

Steve Ladd
-- 

-- 925.254-2052
-- st...@laddmedia.com
-- http://www.laddmedia.com/
-- http://www.videoproject.com




VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

[Ursula Schwarz]

I would be happy to organize some kind of offer at NMM!

Ursula Schwarz

National Media Market
P.O. Box 87410
Tucson, AZ 85754-7410
(520) 743-7735 
http://www.nmm.net/




From: "Peterson, Erika Day - petersed" 
Reply-To: 
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 18:50:59 +
To: "videolib@lists.berkeley.edu" 
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

Maybe distributor's interested in the experiment could make some Groupon
type offers available at NMM?
E
* * * * * *
Erika Peterson
Director of Media Resources
Carrier Library,  James Madison University
(540) 568-6770
http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media




On 7/1/11 2:44 PM, "ghand...@library.berkeley.edu"
 wrote:

>Jon
>
>You can't organize 100 to do ANYTHING, let alone do it next week.
>
>gary
>
>
>> Dear Scott & Gary
>>
>> Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) BEES
>> film
>> next week, we will gladly meet your price.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
>> [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
>> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM
>> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
>>
>> I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from
>> Icarus,
>> Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and
>> whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>> I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity
>>> Fair profile on Groupon.
>>>
>>> I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with
>>> current & older titles might be libraries who bought them at full
>>> price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do
>>> think trying this with new releases would be a way to start.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer  wrote:
>>>
 Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post.
 I
 am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica
 reached a similar conclusion at the same time:

 Just a thought experiment here...

 I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
 collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially
 lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering
 prices would not
 necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You gotta
give
 us
 video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for
 creative solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the
 spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service
 for Indies/educational media.

 Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of
 Bees is
 $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed).
 Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50
 units, offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any
 given point, and only once a year.  Open to all
 filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small
 percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance).

 Thoughts?

 -Scott

 --
 Scott Spicer
 Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota
 Libraries - Twin Cities
 341 Walter Library
 spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
 SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu


 VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
 issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
 acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
 and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
 is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
 video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
 libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
 distributors.


>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jessica Rosner
>>> Media Consultant
>>> 224-545-3897 (cell)
>>> 212-627-1785 (land line)
>>> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
>>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
>>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
>>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
>>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>>> distributors.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Gary Handman
>> Director
>> Media Resources Center
>> Moffitt Library
>> UC Berkeley
>>
>> 510-643-8566
>> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>
>> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>> --Francois Truffaut
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB 

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?

[Elizabeth Sheldon]

I once turned down a French film on Mollusks of the North Atlantic that was 
subtitled in English. I told them, "If only it had voice-over"

Best,

Elizabeth

Elizabeth Sheldon
Vice President
Kino Lorber, Inc.
333 W. 39th St., Suite 503
New York, NY 10018
(212) 629-6880

On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:47 PM, Jessica Rosner wrote:

> Hey Erika are you sure it was "Lesbians Who Save Frogs in Third World 
> Countries " and not my oft mentioned "The Basket Weaving Lesbian 
> Co-Operatives of Boliva"? Again great minds think alike for mock educational 
> titles.
> 
> 
> One repsonse to your example though, how many libraries would buy "Lesbians 
> Who Save Frogs in Third World Countries" If it were $30 sans PPR?
> 
> That I am afraid is the problem.
> 
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed 
>  wrote:
> Larry,
> I'm sorry, but some of your assumptions about how films are being used in
> the academic curriculum are not correct.  Twilight is widely used.  Wall-E
> is widely used.  Do you know what is never NOT on reserve? The Simpsons.
> I'm not just talking about film and television studies courses either.
> Religion, Philosophy, History, English, Women Studies, etc. etc.
> Also, the most popular independent documentary in our collection MIGHT
> circulate 300 times. For the vast majority what we're talking about is
> single digit circulation.
> 
> We buy:
>"Lesbians Who Save Frogs in Third World Countries" in 1995 on VHS for
> $350 (with PPR that we don't need). Professor Sanchez puts it on reserve
> for her seminar class and it circulates 5 times. Then she doesn't teach
> that seminar ever again and it never circulates again.
>Ten years later Professor Sanchez's former grad student, Roger, wants 
> to
> show it to his ENWR class, but his room doesn't have a VHS player, so we
> buy it on DVD ($350) put it on reserve he shows it to his class, that's 1
> circulation.
>2011, Roger decides to teach this class again to his distance ed class,
> has to have it streaming, now we have to pay again?
>So $700 for 6 circulations?  $116 per use for the same title.  How does
> that make any sense at all for us?  So I can shell out another chunk of
> money for something that's STILL not going to get used, or I can just say,
> "Nope, sorry Roger, too expensive, you'll have to find some other video to
> teach with."
> 
> You may think this is an exaggeration.  But this is a more common scenario
> than not.
> 
> Erika
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *   *   *   *   *   *
> Erika Peterson
> Director of Media Resources
> Carrier Library,  James Madison University
> (540) 568-6770
> http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/1/11 2:13 PM, "Lawrence Daressa"  wrote:
> 
> >Dear Matt,
> >
> >As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get
> >our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to
> >buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time,
> >we  think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which
> >reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more
> >films, so you'll have more than  "Twilight" to buy.
> >
> >So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind.
> >
> >1. I trust "Twilight" is not widely used in the curriculum of the
> >University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen
> >what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and,
> >if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media
> >for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to
> >buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10
> >to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00
> >for an i-Tunes.
> >
> >2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts
> >(to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their
> >parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious
> >educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license
> >300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price
> >at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in
> >the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a
> >$150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time
> >more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than
> >economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images?
> >
> >3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph,
> >(in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection "just in case" someone
> >needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that
> >case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per
> >screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe
> >that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to
> >pay a low royalt

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?

[Peterson, Erika Day - petersed]

Good point, Gary.  I too am far less inclined to make purchases to fill
out my collection or support these longer term needs than I was 5 years
ago-- to the detriment of all.
E
*   *   *   *   *   *
Erika Peterson
Director of Media Resources
Carrier Library,  James Madison University
(540) 568-6770
http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media




On 7/1/11 2:54 PM, "ghand...@library.berkeley.edu"
 wrote:

>Not an exaggeration (by the way from whom did you buy that lesbian frog
>doc? Sounds like it would be useful at Berkeley)
>
>The one thing that I think you're not taking into account, Erika, is
>collection development for longer term research (as opposed to immediate
>support of specific curricula).  The real danger of shrinking budgets and
>unbudging economic models for research collections is the very real
>possibility that the former will become less and less supportable.  Again,
>I'm increasingly catching myself passing on interesting and valuable
>higher priced titles unless there's a demonstrated or articulated
>curricular or research need.  This is definitely true when it comes to
>licensing to stream.  Depressing!
>
>
>
>
>> Larry,
>> I'm sorry, but some of your assumptions about how films are being used
>>in
>> the academic curriculum are not correct.  Twilight is widely used.
>>Wall-E
>> is widely used.  Do you know what is never NOT on reserve? The Simpsons.
>> I'm not just talking about film and television studies courses either.
>> Religion, Philosophy, History, English, Women Studies, etc. etc.
>> Also, the most popular independent documentary in our collection MIGHT
>> circulate 300 times. For the vast majority what we're talking about is
>> single digit circulation.
>>
>> We buy:
>>  "Lesbians Who Save Frogs in Third World Countries" in 1995 on VHS for
>> $350 (with PPR that we don't need). Professor Sanchez puts it on reserve
>> for her seminar class and it circulates 5 times. Then she doesn't teach
>> that seminar ever again and it never circulates again.
>>  Ten years later Professor Sanchez's former grad student, Roger, wants
>>to
>> show it to his ENWR class, but his room doesn't have a VHS player, so we
>> buy it on DVD ($350) put it on reserve he shows it to his class, that's
>>1
>> circulation.
>>  2011, Roger decides to teach this class again to his distance ed class,
>> has to have it streaming, now we have to pay again?
>>  So $700 for 6 circulations?  $116 per use for the same title.  How does
>> that make any sense at all for us?  So I can shell out another chunk of
>> money for something that's STILL not going to get used, or I can just
>>say,
>> "Nope, sorry Roger, too expensive, you'll have to find some other video
>>to
>> teach with."
>>
>> You may think this is an exaggeration.  But this is a more common
>>scenario
>> than not.
>>
>> Erika
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> **   *   *   *   *
>> Erika Peterson
>> Director of Media Resources
>> Carrier Library,  James Madison University
>> (540) 568-6770
>> http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/1/11 2:13 PM, "Lawrence Daressa"  wrote:
>>
>>>Dear Matt,
>>>
>>>As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get
>>>our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to
>>>buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time,
>>>we  think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which
>>>reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more
>>>films, so you'll have more than  "Twilight" to buy.
>>>
>>>So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind.
>>>
>>>1. I trust "Twilight" is not widely used in the curriculum of the
>>>University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen
>>>what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and,
>>>if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media
>>>for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to
>>>buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10
>>>to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00
>>>for an i-Tunes.
>>>
>>>2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts
>>>(to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their
>>>parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious
>>>educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license
>>>300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price
>>>at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in
>>>the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a
>>>$150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time
>>>more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than
>>>economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images?
>>>
>>>3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph,
>>>(in Gary's distinction

Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

[Jonathan Miller]

Great idea!
 JM


-Original Message-
From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Peterson, Erika
Day - petersed
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:51 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

Maybe distributor's interested in the experiment could make some Groupon
type offers available at NMM?
E
*   *   *   *   *   *
Erika Peterson
Director of Media Resources
Carrier Library,  James Madison University
(540) 568-6770
http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media




On 7/1/11 2:44 PM, "ghand...@library.berkeley.edu"
 wrote:

>Jon
>
>You can't organize 100 to do ANYTHING, let alone do it next week.
>
>gary
>
>
>> Dear Scott & Gary
>>
>> Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) 
>> BEES film next week, we will gladly meet your price.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
>> [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of 
>> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM
>> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
>>
>> I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from 
>> Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from 
>> WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie 
>> distributors
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>> I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity 
>>> Fair profile on Groupon.
>>>
>>> I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with 
>>> current & older titles might be libraries who bought them at full 
>>> price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do 
>>> think trying this with new releases would be a way to start.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer  wrote:
>>>
 Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post.
 I
 am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica 
 reached a similar conclusion at the same time:

 Just a thought experiment here...

 I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their  
collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially  
lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering  
prices would not
 necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You gotta
give
 us
 video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for  
creative solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in 
the  spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living 
service  for Indies/educational media.

 Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance 
 of Bees is
 $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed).
 Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 
 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any 
 given point, and only once a year.  Open to all 
 filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small 
 percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance).

 Thoughts?

 -Scott

 --
 Scott Spicer
 Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of 
 Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities
 341 Walter Library
 spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
 SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu


 VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion 
 of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, 
 acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current 
 and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. 
 It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool 
 for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between 
 libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
 distributors.


>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jessica Rosner
>>> Media Consultant
>>> 224-545-3897 (cell)
>>> 212-627-1785 (land line)
>>> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of 
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, 
>>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current 
>>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It 
>>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for 
>>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between 
>>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
>>> distributors.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Gary Handman
>> Director
>> Media Resources Center
>> Moffitt Library
>> UC Berkeley
>>
>> 510-643-8566
>> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>
>> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>> --Francois Truffaut
>>
>>

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?

[ghandman]

Not an exaggeration (by the way from whom did you buy that lesbian frog
doc? Sounds like it would be useful at Berkeley)

The one thing that I think you're not taking into account, Erika, is
collection development for longer term research (as opposed to immediate
support of specific curricula).  The real danger of shrinking budgets and
unbudging economic models for research collections is the very real
possibility that the former will become less and less supportable.  Again,
I'm increasingly catching myself passing on interesting and valuable
higher priced titles unless there's a demonstrated or articulated
curricular or research need.  This is definitely true when it comes to
licensing to stream.  Depressing!




> Larry,
> I'm sorry, but some of your assumptions about how films are being used in
> the academic curriculum are not correct.  Twilight is widely used.  Wall-E
> is widely used.  Do you know what is never NOT on reserve? The Simpsons.
> I'm not just talking about film and television studies courses either.
> Religion, Philosophy, History, English, Women Studies, etc. etc.
> Also, the most popular independent documentary in our collection MIGHT
> circulate 300 times. For the vast majority what we're talking about is
> single digit circulation.
>
> We buy:
>   "Lesbians Who Save Frogs in Third World Countries" in 1995 on VHS for
> $350 (with PPR that we don't need). Professor Sanchez puts it on reserve
> for her seminar class and it circulates 5 times. Then she doesn't teach
> that seminar ever again and it never circulates again.
>   Ten years later Professor Sanchez's former grad student, Roger, wants to
> show it to his ENWR class, but his room doesn't have a VHS player, so we
> buy it on DVD ($350) put it on reserve he shows it to his class, that's 1
> circulation.
>   2011, Roger decides to teach this class again to his distance ed class,
> has to have it streaming, now we have to pay again?
>   So $700 for 6 circulations?  $116 per use for the same title.  How does
> that make any sense at all for us?  So I can shell out another chunk of
> money for something that's STILL not going to get used, or I can just say,
> "Nope, sorry Roger, too expensive, you'll have to find some other video to
> teach with."
>
> You may think this is an exaggeration.  But this is a more common scenario
> than not.
>
> Erika
>
>
>
>
> * *   *   *   *   *
> Erika Peterson
> Director of Media Resources
> Carrier Library,  James Madison University
> (540) 568-6770
> http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media
>
>
>
>
> On 7/1/11 2:13 PM, "Lawrence Daressa"  wrote:
>
>>Dear Matt,
>>
>>As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get
>>our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to
>>buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time,
>>we  think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which
>>reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more
>>films, so you'll have more than  "Twilight" to buy.
>>
>>So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind.
>>
>>1. I trust "Twilight" is not widely used in the curriculum of the
>>University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen
>>what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and,
>>if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media
>>for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to
>>buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10
>>to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00
>>for an i-Tunes.
>>
>>2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts
>>(to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their
>>parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious
>>educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license
>>300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price
>>at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in
>>the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a
>>$150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time
>>more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than
>>economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images?
>>
>>3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph,
>>(in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection "just in case" someone
>>needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that
>>case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per
>>screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe
>>that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to
>>pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but
>>unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by
>>hundreds of students or to ask that pr

Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

[Peterson, Erika Day - petersed]

Maybe distributor's interested in the experiment could make some Groupon
type offers available at NMM?
E
*   *   *   *   *   *
Erika Peterson
Director of Media Resources
Carrier Library,  James Madison University
(540) 568-6770
http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media




On 7/1/11 2:44 PM, "ghand...@library.berkeley.edu"
 wrote:

>Jon
>
>You can't organize 100 to do ANYTHING, let alone do it next week.
>
>gary
>
>
>> Dear Scott & Gary
>>
>> Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) BEES
>> film
>> next week, we will gladly meet your price.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
>> [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
>> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM
>> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>> Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
>>
>> I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from
>> Icarus,
>> Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and
>> whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>> I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity
>>> Fair profile on Groupon.
>>>
>>> I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with
>>> current & older titles might be libraries who bought them at full
>>> price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do
>>> think trying this with new releases would be a way to start.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer  wrote:
>>>
 Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post.
 I
 am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica
 reached a similar conclusion at the same time:

 Just a thought experiment here...

 I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
 collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially
 lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering
 prices would not
 necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You gotta
give
 us
 video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for
 creative solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the
 spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service
 for Indies/educational media.

 Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of
 Bees is
 $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed).
 Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50
 units, offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any
 given point, and only once a year.  Open to all
 filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small
 percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance).

 Thoughts?

 -Scott

 --
 Scott Spicer
 Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota
 Libraries - Twin Cities
 341 Walter Library
 spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
 SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu


 VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
 issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
 acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
 and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
 is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
 video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
 libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
 distributors.


>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jessica Rosner
>>> Media Consultant
>>> 224-545-3897 (cell)
>>> 212-627-1785 (land line)
>>> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
>>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
>>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
>>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
>>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>>> distributors.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Gary Handman
>> Director
>> Media Resources Center
>> Moffitt Library
>> UC Berkeley
>>
>> 510-643-8566
>> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>>
>> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>> --Francois Truffaut
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues
>> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>>control,
>> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
>> and
>> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
>>effective

Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

[Peterson, Erika Day - petersed]

Submitting my order for Bees now.

Erika
*   *   *   *   *   *
Erika Peterson
Director of Media Resources
Carrier Library,  James Madison University
(540) 568-6770
http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media




On 7/1/11 2:28 PM, "Jonathan Miller"  wrote:

>Dear Scott & Gary 
>
>Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) BEES
>film
>next week, we will gladly meet your price.
>
>Best 
>
>Jonathan 
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
>[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
>ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM
>To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
>Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
>
>I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from
>Icarus,
>Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and
>whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors
>
>Gary
>
>
>
>> I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity
>> Fair profile on Groupon.
>>
>> I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with
>> current & older titles might be libraries who bought them at full
>> price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do
>> think trying this with new releases would be a way to start.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer  wrote:
>>
>>> Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post.
>>> I
>>> am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica
>>> reached a similar conclusion at the same time:
>>>
>>> Just a thought experiment here...
>>>
>>> I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
>>> collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially
>>> lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering
>>> prices would not
>>> necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You gotta give
>>> us
>>> video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for
>>> creative solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the
>>> spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service
>>> for Indies/educational media.
>>>
>>> Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of
>>> Bees is
>>> $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed).
>>> Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50
>>> units, offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any
>>> given point, and only once a year.  Open to all
>>> filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small
>>> percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance).
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> -Scott
>>>
>>> --
>>> Scott Spicer
>>> Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota
>>> Libraries - Twin Cities
>>> 341 Walter Library
>>> spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
>>> Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
>>> SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
>>>
>>>
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
>>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
>>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
>>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
>>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>>> distributors.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jessica Rosner
>> Media Consultant
>> 224-545-3897 (cell)
>> 212-627-1785 (land line)
>> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>>distributors.
>>
>
>
>Gary Handman
>Director
>Media Resources Center
>Moffitt Library
>UC Berkeley
>
>510-643-8566
>ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
>http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>
>"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
>--Francois Truffaut
>
>
>VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>issues
>relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
>preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
>and
>related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
>working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
>between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>distributors.
>
>
>VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>control, preservation, an

Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

[Jonathan Miller]

Ok, so tell me - when? 
 JM


-Original Message-
From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:45 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

Jon

You can't organize 100 to do ANYTHING, let alone do it next week.

gary


> Dear Scott & Gary
>
> Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) 
> BEES film next week, we will gladly meet your price.
>
> Best
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
> [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of 
> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM
> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
>
> I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from 
> Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from 
> WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie 
> distributors
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>> I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity 
>> Fair profile on Groupon.
>>
>> I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with 
>> current & older titles might be libraries who bought them at full 
>> price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do 
>> think trying this with new releases would be a way to start.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer  wrote:
>>
>>> Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post.
>>> I
>>> am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica 
>>> reached a similar conclusion at the same time:
>>>
>>> Just a thought experiment here...
>>>
>>> I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their 
>>> collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially 
>>> lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering 
>>> prices would not
>>> necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You gotta give
>>> us
>>> video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for 
>>> creative solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in 
>>> the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living 
>>> service for Indies/educational media.
>>>
>>> Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of 
>>> Bees is
>>> $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed).
>>> Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 
>>> units, offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any 
>>> given point, and only once a year.  Open to all 
>>> filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small 
>>> percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance).
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> -Scott
>>>
>>> --
>>> Scott Spicer
>>> Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota 
>>> Libraries - Twin Cities
>>> 341 Walter Library
>>> spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
>>> Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
>>> SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
>>>
>>>
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of 
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, 
>>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current 
>>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It 
>>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for 
>>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between 
>>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
>>> distributors.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jessica Rosner
>> Media Consultant
>> 224-545-3897 (cell)
>> 212-627-1785 (land line)
>> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of 
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, 
>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current 
>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It 
>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for 
>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between 
>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
>> distributors.
>>
>
>
> Gary Handman
> Director
> Media Resources Center
> Moffitt Library
> UC Berkeley
>
> 510-643-8566
> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>
> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
> --Francois Truffaut
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of 
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, 
> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current 
> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It 
> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for 
> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between 
> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?

[Ball, James (jmb4aw)]

Larry, and everyone,

What a great discussion we've entered into!  Larry, I'm on my way to Boston and 
will try to reply once I get there.  

Also, thanks to everyone who has contacted me off-list.  I'm clearing my 
calendar for Tuesday when I'm back at work and look forward to talking with you 
all.

Cheers,

Matt

__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812

On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:25 PM, "Lawrence Daressa"  wrote:

> Dear Matt,
> 
> As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get
> our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to
> buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time,
> we  think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which
> reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more
> films, so you'll have more than  "Twilight" to buy.   
> 
> So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind. 
> 
> 1. I trust "Twilight" is not widely used in the curriculum of the
> University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen
> what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and,
> if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media
> for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to
> buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10
> to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00
> for an i-Tunes.
> 
> 2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts
> (to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their
> parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious
> educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license
> 300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price
> at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in
> the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a
> $150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time
> more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than
> economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? 
> 
> 3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph,
> (in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection "just in case" someone
> needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that
> case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per
> screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe
> that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to
> pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but
> unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by
> hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference
> collection.   
> 
> 4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90%
> discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted
> to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia
> Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity
> provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you
> had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your
> telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would
> make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are
> really talking about  companies with economic power vs. companies which
> can be pushed around? 
> 
> Newsreel admits that it can be pushed around and independent filmmakers
> can be pushed around as well. That's our crusts and margarine.. And if
> there's one thing the past few years have demonstrated, it's who wins in
> a contest between economics and ethics.   
> 
> Best Wishes
> Larry
> 
> 
> Lawrence Daressa
> California Newsreel
> 500 Third Street, #505
> San Francisco, CA  94107
> phone: 415.284.7800 x302
> fax: 415.284.7801
> l...@newsreel.org
> www.newsreel.org 
> -Original Message-
> From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
> [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
> videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:39 AM
> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> Subject: videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5
> 
> Send videolib mailing list submissions to
>videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> 
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>
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> 
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> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: How do you know when you've beco

Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

[ghandman]

Jon

You can't organize 100 to do ANYTHING, let alone do it next week.

gary


> Dear Scott & Gary
>
> Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) BEES
> film
> next week, we will gladly meet your price.
>
> Best
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
> [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM
> To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
> Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
>
> I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from
> Icarus,
> Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and
> whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>> I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity
>> Fair profile on Groupon.
>>
>> I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with
>> current & older titles might be libraries who bought them at full
>> price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do
>> think trying this with new releases would be a way to start.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer  wrote:
>>
>>> Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post.
>>> I
>>> am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica
>>> reached a similar conclusion at the same time:
>>>
>>> Just a thought experiment here...
>>>
>>> I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
>>> collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially
>>> lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering
>>> prices would not
>>> necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You gotta give
>>> us
>>> video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for
>>> creative solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the
>>> spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service
>>> for Indies/educational media.
>>>
>>> Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of
>>> Bees is
>>> $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed).
>>> Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50
>>> units, offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any
>>> given point, and only once a year.  Open to all
>>> filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small
>>> percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance).
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> -Scott
>>>
>>> --
>>> Scott Spicer
>>> Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota
>>> Libraries - Twin Cities
>>> 341 Walter Library
>>> spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
>>> Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
>>> SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
>>>
>>>
>>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
>>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
>>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
>>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
>>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>>> distributors.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jessica Rosner
>> Media Consultant
>> 224-545-3897 (cell)
>> 212-627-1785 (land line)
>> jessicapros...@gmail.com
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation,
>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current
>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It
>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for
>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>> distributors.
>>
>
>
> Gary Handman
> Director
> Media Resources Center
> Moffitt Library
> UC Berkeley
>
> 510-643-8566
> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC
>
> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
> --Francois Truffaut
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
> and
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> distributors.
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
> as an effective workin

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Meredith Miller]

Hi Matt, 

 

We’ll play! By my calculations your offer means, based on your purchases
from us last year, that you are ready to order 290 titles from us for $60
each (and without PPR).  Our only stipulations would be a) no titles from
this or last year, and b) place your order before Labor Day! 

 

Deal? 

 

Meredith Miller

Icarus Films

32 Court St, 21st Floor

Brooklyn, NY 11201

P: 1.718.488.8900

F: 1.718.488.8642

E: mered...@icarusfilms.com

www.icarusfilms.com

  www.twitter.com/icarusfilms

  www.facebook.com/icarusfilms

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James
(jmb4aw)
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 12:39 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

 

Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible
pricing.  Who else is interested?

 

Matt

__ 

Matt Ball

Media and Collections Librarian

University of Virginia

mattb...@virginia.edu

434-924-3812


On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, "Ball, James (jmb4aw)"
 wrote:

"If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors
they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles
at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance."





It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the
distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually
beneficial.  It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of
the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model,
around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from
them last year than I did from the other distributors. 





As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise.  And I'm even
flexible on the price.  How about $60.00 with no PPR?  





Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too.  Anybody want to take a test
drive?





Matt







__ 

Matt Ball

Media and Collections Librarian

University of Virginia

mattb...@virginia.edu

434-924-3812


On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, "Jessica Rosner" 
wrote:

Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell
copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it
will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you
would not otherwise, but  many educational titles deal with very specialized
subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it
would also require a lot more time & money from a company and the real
kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to
institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to
sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the
price. 
Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a
middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by
women. I believe it was something  $50 for institutions and $25 for
individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200   at $50
each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen
to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund
the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in
truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more
money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more
than made up for some that would not have. 

If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors
they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles
at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance.
Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by
more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of
educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one
mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed
 wrote:

Hear, Hear.

 

Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films
independent distributor's deal with.  We, the librarians, know that better
than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're
in our collection.  It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for
my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it
looks like a worthy title.  It has to be for a direct and immediate academic
need.  Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up
like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it.  Thus,
even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience.

 

If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and
be marketing them to m

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?

[Peterson, Erika Day - petersed]

Larry,
I'm sorry, but some of your assumptions about how films are being used in
the academic curriculum are not correct.  Twilight is widely used.  Wall-E
is widely used.  Do you know what is never NOT on reserve? The Simpsons.
I'm not just talking about film and television studies courses either.
Religion, Philosophy, History, English, Women Studies, etc. etc.
Also, the most popular independent documentary in our collection MIGHT
circulate 300 times. For the vast majority what we're talking about is
single digit circulation.

We buy: 
"Lesbians Who Save Frogs in Third World Countries" in 1995 on VHS for
$350 (with PPR that we don't need). Professor Sanchez puts it on reserve
for her seminar class and it circulates 5 times. Then she doesn't teach
that seminar ever again and it never circulates again.
Ten years later Professor Sanchez's former grad student, Roger, wants to
show it to his ENWR class, but his room doesn't have a VHS player, so we
buy it on DVD ($350) put it on reserve he shows it to his class, that's 1
circulation.
2011, Roger decides to teach this class again to his distance ed class,
has to have it streaming, now we have to pay again?
So $700 for 6 circulations?  $116 per use for the same title.  How does
that make any sense at all for us?  So I can shell out another chunk of
money for something that's STILL not going to get used, or I can just say,
"Nope, sorry Roger, too expensive, you'll have to find some other video to
teach with."

You may think this is an exaggeration.  But this is a more common scenario
than not.

Erika




*   *   *   *   *   *
Erika Peterson
Director of Media Resources
Carrier Library,  James Madison University
(540) 568-6770
http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media




On 7/1/11 2:13 PM, "Lawrence Daressa"  wrote:

>Dear Matt,
>
>As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get
>our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to
>buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time,
>we  think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which
>reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more
>films, so you'll have more than  "Twilight" to buy.
>
>So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind.
>
>1. I trust "Twilight" is not widely used in the curriculum of the
>University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen
>what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and,
>if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media
>for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to
>buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10
>to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00
>for an i-Tunes.
>
>2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts
>(to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their
>parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious
>educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license
>300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price
>at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in
>the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a
>$150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time
>more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than
>economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images?
>
>3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph,
>(in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection "just in case" someone
>needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that
>case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per
>screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe
>that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to
>pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but
>unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by
>hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference
>collection.   
>
>4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90%
>discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted
>to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia
>Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity
>provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you
>had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your
>telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would
>make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are
>really talking about  companies with economic power vs. companies which
>can be pushed around?
>
>Newsreel admits that it can be pushed around and independent filmmakers
>can be pushed around as well. That's our cr

Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

[Jonathan Miller]

Dear Scott & Gary 

Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) BEES film
next week, we will gladly meet your price. 

Best 

Jonathan 


-Original Message-
From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from Icarus,
Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and
whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors

Gary



> I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity 
> Fair profile on Groupon.
>
> I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with 
> current & older titles might be libraries who bought them at full 
> price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do 
> think trying this with new releases would be a way to start.
>
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer  wrote:
>
>> Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post.
>> I
>> am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica 
>> reached a similar conclusion at the same time:
>>
>> Just a thought experiment here...
>>
>> I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their 
>> collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially 
>> lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering 
>> prices would not
>> necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You gotta give
>> us
>> video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for 
>> creative solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the 
>> spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service 
>> for Indies/educational media.
>>
>> Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of 
>> Bees is
>> $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed).
>> Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 
>> units, offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any 
>> given point, and only once a year.  Open to all 
>> filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small 
>> percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance).
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> -Scott
>>
>> --
>> Scott Spicer
>> Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota 
>> Libraries - Twin Cities
>> 341 Walter Library
>> spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
>> Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
>> SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of 
>> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, 
>> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current 
>> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It 
>> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for 
>> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between 
>> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
>> distributors.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jessica Rosner
> Media Consultant
> 224-545-3897 (cell)
> 212-627-1785 (land line)
> jessicapros...@gmail.com
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of 
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, 
> acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current 
> and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It 
> is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for 
> video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between 
> libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
>


Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley

510-643-8566
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
--Francois Truffaut


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
distributors.


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] I guess we can agree on something

[Bob Norris]

I like the Groupon idea. It is all about getting the guaranteed volume.

Bob
Robert A. Norris
Managing Director
Film Ideas, Inc.
Email:  b...@filmideas.com
Web:www.filmideas.com
www.FIChannels.com

VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

[ghandman]

I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from
Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM,
and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors

Gary



> I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair
> profile on Groupon.
>
> I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current &
> older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting
> upset,
> but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new
> releases would be a way to start.
>
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer  wrote:
>
>> Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post.
>> I
>> am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached
>> a
>> similar conclusion at the same time:
>>
>> Just a thought experiment here...
>>
>> I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
>> collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially
>> lowered
>> costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not
>> necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You gotta give
>> us
>> video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for creative
>> solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of
>> Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for
>> Indies/educational media.
>>
>> Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of
>> Bees
>> is
>> $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed).
>> Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50
>> units,
>> offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any given point,
>> and
>> only once a year.  Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the
>> academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion
>> and
>> maintenance).
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> -Scott
>>
>> --
>> Scott Spicer
>> Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian
>> University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities
>> 341 Walter Library
>> spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
>> Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
>> SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
>>
>>
>> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
>> issues
>> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
>> control,
>> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries
>> and
>> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an
>> effective
>> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
>> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
>> distributors.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jessica Rosner
> Media Consultant
> 224-545-3897 (cell)
> 212-627-1785 (land line)
> jessicapros...@gmail.com
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of
> issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic
> control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
> libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve
> as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of
> communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video
> producers and distributors.
>


Gary Handman
Director
Media Resources Center
Moffitt Library
UC Berkeley

510-643-8566
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC

"I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself."
--Francois Truffaut


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?

[Lawrence Daressa]

Dear Matt,

As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get
our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to
buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time,
we  think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which
reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more
films, so you'll have more than  "Twilight" to buy.   

So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind. 

1. I trust "Twilight" is not widely used in the curriculum of the
University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen
what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and,
if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media
for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to
buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10
to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00
for an i-Tunes.

2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts
(to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their
parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious
educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license
300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price
at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in
the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a
$150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time
more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than
economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? 

3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph,
(in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection "just in case" someone
needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that
case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per
screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe
that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to
pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but
unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by
hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference
collection.   

4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90%
discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted
to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia
Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity
provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you
had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your
telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would
make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are
really talking about  companies with economic power vs. companies which
can be pushed around? 

Newsreel admits that it can be pushed around and independent filmmakers
can be pushed around as well. That's our crusts and margarine.. And if
there's one thing the past few years have demonstrated, it's who wins in
a contest between economics and ethics.   

Best Wishes
Larry
  

Lawrence Daressa
California Newsreel
500 Third Street, #505
San Francisco, CA  94107
phone: 415.284.7800 x302
fax: 415.284.7801
l...@newsreel.org
www.newsreel.org 
-Original Message-
From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of
videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:39 AM
To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu
Subject: videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair
  Pricing for Independent Documentaries (Elizabeth Stanley)
   2. Re: How do you know when you?ve become an artist?]
  (Ball, James (jmb4aw))


--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:28:43 -0400
From: Elizabeth Stanley 
Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?]
Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries
To: "videolib@lists.berkeley.edu" 
Message-ID:
<0d60cf5d39dfde49ab3837411a72fbb203a532e...@bfsbs08.bf.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello, Matt,

You've got my attention.  Let's talk.

Elizabeth
Bullfrog Films
8

Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

[Jessica Rosner]

I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair
profile on Groupon.

I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current &
older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset,
but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new
releases would be a way to start.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer  wrote:

> Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post.  I
> am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a
> similar conclusion at the same time:
>
> Just a thought experiment here...
>
> I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
> collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered
> costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not
> necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You gotta give us
> video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for creative
> solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of
> Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for
> Indies/educational media.
>
> Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees
> is
> $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed).
> Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units,
> offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and
> only once a year.  Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the
> academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion
> and
> maintenance).
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -Scott
>
> --
> Scott Spicer
> Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian
> University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities
> 341 Walter Library
> spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
> Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
> SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> distributors.
>
>


-- 
Jessica Rosner
Media Consultant
224-545-3897 (cell)
212-627-1785 (land line)
jessicapros...@gmail.com
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

[Videolib] Groupon suggestion..

[scott spicer]

Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post.  I am
interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a
similar conclusion at the same time:

Just a thought experiment here...

I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their
collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered
costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not
necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume.   You gotta give us
video librarians a fighting chance.  Challenging times call for creative
solutions.  So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of
Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for
Indies/educational media.

Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is
$200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed).
Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units,
offer ends at 500 takers.  Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and
only once a year.  Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the
academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and
maintenance).

Thoughts?

-Scott

-- 
Scott Spicer
Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian
University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities
341 Walter Library
spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] I guess we can agree on something

[Jessica Rosner]

I actually use a lot of groupons.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 1:54 PM, scott spicer  wrote:

> Jessica, too flukey.
>
> -Scott
>
> --
> Scott Spicer
> Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian
> University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities
> 341 Walter Library
> spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
> Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
> SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
>
>
> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues
> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control,
> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and
> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective
> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
> distributors.
>
>


-- 
Jessica Rosner
Media Consultant
224-545-3897 (cell)
212-627-1785 (land line)
jessicapros...@gmail.com
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Williams, Alex O.]

We at AFD/Typecast Films are always open to negotiating discounts to help
libraries or individuals work within tight budgets—especially when multiple
titles are ordered. Just give me a call!

Though we do have quite a few titles available only with PPR (more obscure
titles that folks aren't clamoring for in the Home Video market), we've also
got many titles available without PPR for between $20-$30. These are usually
titles that had formally been available only at the higher institutional
rate with PPR, but I haven't really seen these $20-$30 non-PPR copies being
picked up by college/university libraries at 10-times (or even 5-times) the
rate they had been when they were available only with PPR. It would be great
if they were though!

Happy 4th of July holiday ~

Alex
_

Alex O. Williams
Institutional Sales

AFD / Typecast Films
Seattle, WA . USA
ph: 206.322.0882 x.202 | fx: 206.322.4586

arabfilm.com | typecastfilms.com



On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM,  wrote:

> We're all interested, Matt
>
> By the way, flexible doesn't mean basing pricing on institutional
> enrollment or FTE metrics.
>
> gary
>
>
>
> > Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible
> > pricing.  Who else is interested?
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > __
> > Matt Ball
> > Media and Collections Librarian
> > University of Virginia
> > mattb...@virginia.edu
> > 434-924-3812
> >
> > On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, "Ball, James (jmb4aw)"
> > mailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > "If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure
> distributors
> > they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell
> titles
> > at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance."
> >
> > It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the
> > distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's
> > mutually beneficial.  It is interesting that you mention Kino because
> they
> > are one of the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested
> > pricing model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I
> bought
> > a lot more from them last year than I did from the other distributors.
> >
> > As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise.  And I'm
> > even flexible on the price.  How about $60.00 with no PPR?
> >
> > Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too.  Anybody want to take a test
> > drive?
> >
> > Matt
>
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

[Videolib] I guess we can agree on something

[scott spicer]

Jessica, too flukey.

-Scott

-- 
Scott Spicer
Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian
University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities
341 Walter Library
spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629
Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media
SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu
VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

[Videolib] Re: How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[ghandman]

We're all interested, Matt

By the way, flexible doesn't mean basing pricing on institutional
enrollment or FTE metrics.

gary



> Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible
> pricing.  Who else is interested?
>
> Matt
>
> __
> Matt Ball
> Media and Collections Librarian
> University of Virginia
> mattb...@virginia.edu
> 434-924-3812
>
> On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, "Ball, James (jmb4aw)"
> mailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu>>
> wrote:
>
> "If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors
> they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles
> at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance."
>
> It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the
> distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's
> mutually beneficial.  It is interesting that you mention Kino because they
> are one of the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested
> pricing model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought
> a lot more from them last year than I did from the other distributors.
>
> As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise.  And I'm
> even flexible on the price.  How about $60.00 with no PPR?
>
> Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too.  Anybody want to take a test
> drive?
>
> Matt
>
>
>
> __
> Matt Ball
> Media and Collections Librarian
> University of Virginia
> mattb...@virginia.edu
> 434-924-3812
>
> On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, "Jessica Rosner"
> <jessicapros...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell
> copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but
> it will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films
> you would not otherwise, but  many educational titles deal with very
> specialized subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in
> mind that it would also require a lot more time & money from a company and
> the real kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly
> all to institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would
> have to sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to
> 50% of the price.
> Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a
> middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by
> women. I believe it was something  $50 for institutions and $25 for
> individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200   at $50
> each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few
> dozen to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to
> fund the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground
> but in truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made
> more money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and
> more than made up for some that would not have.
>
> If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors
> they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles
> at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance.
> Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by
> more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of
> educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one
> mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less.
>
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed
> <peter...@jmu.edu>
> wrote:
> Hear, Hear.
>
> Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films
> independent distributor's deal with.  We, the librarians, know that better
> than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once
> they're in our collection.  It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a
> film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because
> *I* think it looks like a worthy title.  It has to be for a direct and
> immediate academic need.  Then there's the added temptation once we do
> have it, to lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small
> fortune for it.  Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a
> broader audience.
>
> If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles
> and be marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively.
>
> In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of
> money OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with
> any distributor that will make this deal.
>
> Erika
> * * * * * *
> Erika Peterson
> Director of Media R

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Jessica Rosner]

HEY I HAVE THE SOLUTION. Let's do our own Groupons. Say a distributor has a
new film about the women fighting for the right to drive in Saudi Arabia (
or any subject you want) They put it  up on their site two months before
release for pre-orders at $30 each and it "tips"  750 copies. If they can
get the pre-orders than indeed everyone gets them at $30, if not they take
it down and sell it to 80  institutions  that will buy it at $250 because
they have a specific need for it in their courses.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Deborah Benrubi  wrote:

> **
> For what it's worth I say the same. I do not buy PPR for the library unless
> there's no option. Bullfrog, WMM, et al., I would buy 10 $30 DVDs with no
> PPR for every $300 DVD I buy now -- currently just a few a year.
>
> Debbie Benrubi
> Associate Librarian
> University of San Francisco
>
>
> On 7/1/2011 7:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed wrote:
>
>  Hear, Hear.
>
>  Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films
> independent distributor's deal with.  We, the librarians, know that better
> than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're
> in our collection.  It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for
> my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think
> it looks like a worthy title.  It has to be for a direct and immediate
> academic need.  Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to
> lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for
> it.  Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience.
>
>  If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles
> and be marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively.
>
>  In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of
> money OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with
> any distributor that will make this deal.
>
>  Erika
>  * *
> * *
> * *
> Erika Peterson
> Director of Media Resources
> Carrier Library,  James Madison University
> (540) 568-6770
> http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media
>
>   From: James Ball 
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 14:13:23 +
> To: "" 
> Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]
>
>   A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're
> requesting Glee and Twilight.  An equally large chunk of the collecting I
> do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader
> curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog,
> Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc.  But those titles are so expensive that I
> can only afford to buy a few per year.
>
>  However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for
> $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten,
> probably more.  I'm not kidding.  Nothing would make me happier than
> flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles
> I would love to have.  For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost
> that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of
> my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities.
>  For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more
> titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even
> considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at
> least four other media librarians who'd do the same.
>
>  There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the
> visibility of their films has increased five-fold.  Or is it four?  Anyway,
> you see my point.
>
>  Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested?  $30.00 per title, no
> PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought
> last year.
>
>  Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there...
>
>  Matt
>
> __
> Matt Ball
> Media and Collections Librarian
> University of Virginia
> mattb...@virginia.edu
> 434-924-3812
>
> On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, "Jessica Rosner" 
> wrote:
>
>  As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell
> you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a
> chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject
> matter is generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to
> the popular topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of
> expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the
> same as the more popular $19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail
> level and keep in mind the distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing
> sold through third parties like Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions
> would actually buy a wonderful series of films on the post genocide justice
> system in Rwanda or even one on Gerrymandering ( to plug the ones I d

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Deborah Benrubi]

  
  
I am! Definitely.

On 7/1/2011 9:38 AM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) wrote:

  
  Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work
on flexible pricing.  Who else is interested?
  
  
  Matt

__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812
  
  
On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, "Ball, James (jmb4aw)" 
wrote:

  
  

  "If the library community wants to figure out a
  way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10
  times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a
  pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the
  chance."
  

  It's
  not up to the library community to make assurances for the
  distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing
  model that's mutually beneficial.  It is interesting that
  you mention Kino because they are one of the few
  distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing
  model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that
  I bought a lot more from them last year than I did from
  the other distributors. 
  

  As
  for the 10 times guarantee, I just
  made that very promise.  And I'm even flexible on the
  price.  How about $60.00 with no PPR?  
  

  Erika's
  offer looks pretty interesting too.  Anybody want to take
  a test drive?
  

  Matt
  

  

__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812
  
  
On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, "Jessica Rosner" 
wrote:

  
  
Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if
  they could sell copies at $30 and basically make the same
  sum at selling it at $300, but it will never happen. I
  don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you
  would not otherwise, but  many educational titles deal
  with very specialized subjects and they are not going to
  sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also require
  a lot more time & money from a company and the real
  kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales,
  nearly all to institutions. In order for a film to be
  really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many
  copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the
  price.
  
  Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if
  there could be a middle ground. I curated a 3 title
  collection of silent films directed by women. I believe it
  was something  $50 for institutions and $25 for
  individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold
  about 200   at $50 each( or less as a set) did come close
  to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals.
  Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund
  the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice
  middle ground but in truth had I sold them two or three
  times that, they would have made more money. Most of the
  institutions would still have purchased them and more than
  made up for some that would not have.
  
  
  If the library community wants to figure out a way to
  assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the
  number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I
  guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance.
  Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films
  would be seen by more people. Sadly it is just not
  realistic for the vast majority of educational films and
  small distributors are not going to cherry pick one mildly
  popular title try to sell it for a lot less.
  
  On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM,
Peterson, Erika Day - petersed

wrote:

  

  
Hear, Hear.


J

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Deborah Benrubi]

  
  
For what it's worth I say the same. I do not buy PPR for the library
unless there's no option. Bullfrog, WMM, et al., I would buy 10 $30
DVDs with no PPR for every $300 DVD I buy now -- currently just a
few a year.

Debbie Benrubi
Associate Librarian
University of San Francisco

On 7/1/2011 7:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed wrote:

  
  

  Hear, Hear.
  
  
  Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited
market for the films independent distributor's deal with.
 We, the librarians, know that better than anyone because
there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in
our collection.  It's impossible for me to justify
purchasing a film for my collection that costs $200, $300,
$400 or more just because *I*
think it looks like a worthy title.  It has to be for a
direct and immediate academic need.  Then there's the added
temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's the
Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it.  Thus,
even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader
audience.
  
  
  If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a
lot more titles and be marketing them to my academic
community much more aggressively.  
  
  
  In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the
same amount of money OR MORE this fiscal year as my average
over the last five years with any distributor that will make
this deal.
  
  
  Erika
  
*
  *
  * *
  * *
Erika Peterson
Director
of Media Resources
Carrier
Library,  James

Madison University
(540)
568-6770
http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media
  

  
  
  
  

  From: James Ball 
  Reply-To: 
  Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011
  14:13:23 +
  To: ""
  
  Subject: Re:
  [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]




  

  A lot of the
  collecting I do is based on faculty requests but
  they're requesting Glee and Twilight.  An equally
  large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based
  on what I think we *should* have to support broader
  curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from
  distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies,
  etc.  But those titles are so expensive that I can
  only afford to buy a few per year.  
  
  
  
  However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold
their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total
purchases from them times ten, probably more.  I'm not
kidding.  Nothing would make me happier than flipping
through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of
the titles I would love to have.  For me, I would be
getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a
pricing model that's supportable under the constraints
of my institution's collection development strategies
and budget priorities.  For the filmmakers and
distributors it means that I would be buying more
titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I
wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing
to do that then I bet there are at least four other
media librarians who'd do the same.  
  
  
  There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe
more) and the visibility of their films has increased
five-fold.  Or is it four?  Anyway, you see my point.
  
  
  Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested?
 $30.00 per title, no PPR, and I promise to buy at least
10 times the number of titles I bought last year.
  
  
  Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial
pricing model out there...
  
  
  Matt
  
  __
  Matt Ball
  Media and Collections Librarian
  

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Jessica Rosner]

I remain a cynic. I don't want to be, but I know the financial situation
behind small docs often on rarefied subjects. You may have some success with
titles that could have a wider audience, but the majority of "educational"
films are on very specialized subjects. The numbers really are that a
distributor would in most cases have sell at least 10 times the current
number to get the same amount of money, especially considering you will have
a lot more work involved from invoicing to duplicating. I fully understand
institutions are under huge financial pressures and I am afraid I see a
future where most small distributors are gone and any filmmaker that can't
get some fat grants or  a rich sponsor has to abandon their dream of making
a film on a subject without enough commercial appeal to sell on Amazon, or
do one that has a subject matter that cant be made in a month, close to home
using a cheap camera and sold to friends and relatives. Everyone seems to
think new technology in both film making and distribution will increase the
number of documentaries and for sheer numbers it might, but not for the
kinds of films many of us love  and that are important. Again filmmakers
lucky enough to get support from HBO or the Soros Foundation etc, will be
able to  make movies, those who hoped to cover their costs by selling them
for academic use had better start thinking of making a film about a Gay
Jewish child of a Holocaust survivor who becomes a crusader against the
evils of agribusiness because only popular subjects will sell.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) <
jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu> wrote:

>  Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible
> pricing.  Who else is interested?
>
>  Matt
>
> __
> Matt Ball
> Media and Collections Librarian
> University of Virginia
> mattb...@virginia.edu
> 434-924-3812
>
> On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, "Ball, James (jmb4aw)" <
> jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu> wrote:
>
>   "If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure
> distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they
> sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the
> chance."
>
>  It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the
> distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually
> beneficial.  It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of
> the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model,
> around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from
> them last year than I did from the other distributors.
>
>  As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise.  And I'm
> even flexible on the price.  How about $60.00 with no PPR?
>
>  Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too.  Anybody want to take a test
> drive?
>
>  Matt
>
>
>
> __
> Matt Ball
> Media and Collections Librarian
> University of Virginia
>  mattb...@virginia.edu
> 434-924-3812
>
> On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, "Jessica Rosner" < 
> jessicapros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell
> copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it
> will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you
> would not otherwise, but  many educational titles deal with very specialized
> subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it
> would also require a lot more time & money from a company and the real
> kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to
> institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to
> sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the
> price.
> Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a
> middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by
> women. I believe it was something  $50 for institutions and $25 for
> individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200   at $50
> each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen
> to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund
> the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in
> truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more
> money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more
> than made up for some that would not have.
>
> If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors
> they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles
> at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance.
> Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by
> more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of
> educational films and small distributors are not going 

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you ¹ ve become an artist?]

[Kristin Cooney]

We here at ro*co films are always willing to discuss flexible pricing when
libraries are wanting to purchase multiple titles. We have such a small
collection (unlike Bullfrog, Kino Lorber, Women Make Movies, etc), so
lowering our prices to $60 just isn¹t an option for us, especially when we
have no assurance that this will increase the amount of DVDs sold. However,
when multiple titles (or copies) are requested, we are always open to
discussing substantial discounts!

For all librarians interested, please be in touch and we can discuss
further.

I hope everyone has a wonderful holiday weekend!

Best regards,

Kristin

Kristin Cooney
ro*co films educational
80 Liberty Ship Way, Suite 5
Sausalito, CA 94965
415.332.6471 x203
kris...@rocofilms.com
www.rocoeducational.com


On 7/1/11 9:38 AM, "Ball, James (jmb4aw)" 
wrote:

> Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible
> pricing.  Who else is interested?
> 
> Matt
> 
> __
> Matt Ball
> Media and Collections Librarian
> University of Virginia
> mattb...@virginia.edu
> 434-924-3812
> 
> On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, "Ball, James (jmb4aw)"
>  wrote:
> 
>> "If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors
>> they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at
>> $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance."
>> 
>> It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors,
>> but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial.
>> It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few
>> distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around
>> $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them
>> last year than I did from the other distributors.
>> 
>> As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise.  And I'm even
>> flexible on the price.  How about $60.00 with no PPR?
>> 
>> Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too.  Anybody want to take a test
>> drive?
>> 
>> Matt
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> __
>> Matt Ball
>> Media and Collections Librarian
>> University of Virginia
>>   mattb...@virginia.edu
>> 434-924-3812
>> 
>> On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, "Jessica Rosner" <
>>  jessicapros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell
>>> copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it
>>> will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you
>>> would not otherwise, but  many educational titles deal with very specialized
>>> subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it
>>> would also require a lot more time & money from a company and the real
>>> kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to
>>> institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to
>>> sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the
>>> price. 
>>> Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a
>>> middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by
>>> women. I believe it was something  $50 for institutions and $25 for
>>> individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200   at $50
>>> each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen
>>> to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund
>>> the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in
>>> truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more
>>> money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more
>>> than made up for some that would not have.
>>> 
>>> If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors
>>> they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles
>>> at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance.
>>> Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by
>>> more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of
>>> educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one
>>> mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed <
>>>    peter...@jmu.edu>
>>> wrote:
 Hear, Hear.
 
 Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films
 independent distributor's deal with.  We, the librarians, know that better
 than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once
 they're in our collection.  It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a
 film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I*
 think it looks like a worthy title

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Elizabeth Sheldon]

Dear All,

As I said in my earlier note, many of our films are available without PPR for 
$30. For new releases, many of which we will be announcing over the coming 
weeks as they open in theaters, we will be asking $149 without PPR but if you 
want to place an order of more than five films from Kino Lorber Edu, I am 
willing to offer discounts based on number of titles and meet you somewhere 
around halfway.

Just drop me a note and I will get back to you. Matt, you are definitely one of 
our top customers and we have room for more (lots of room for many more). In 
fact, I up the ante and whichever library doubles their purchase on a dollar 
basis from last year with the fiscal year ending December 31, 2010, there will 
be a prize. And whoever spends the most in total dollars at Kino Lorber Edu, 
there will be another prize.

How is that for suspense? 

Best,

Elizabeth

Elizabeth Sheldon
Vice President
Kino Lorber, Inc.
333 W. 39th St., Suite 503
New York, NY 10018
(212) 629-6880

www.kinolorberedu.com

On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:32 PM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) wrote:

> "If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors 
> they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at 
> $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance."
> 
> It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, 
> but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial.  
> It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few 
> distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around 
> $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them 
> last year than I did from the other distributors. 
> 
> As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise.  And I'm even 
> flexible on the price.  How about $60.00 with no PPR?  
> 
> Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too.  Anybody want to take a test 
> drive?
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> 
> __
> Matt Ball
> Media and Collections Librarian
> University of Virginia
> mattb...@virginia.edu
> 434-924-3812
> 
> On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, "Jessica Rosner"  
> wrote:
> 
>> Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell 
>> copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it 
>> will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you 
>> would not otherwise, but  many educational titles deal with very specialized 
>> subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it 
>> would also require a lot more time & money from a company and the real 
>> kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to 
>> institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to 
>> sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the 
>> price. 
>> Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a 
>> middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by 
>> women. I believe it was something  $50 for institutions and $25 for 
>> individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200   at $50 
>> each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen 
>> to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund 
>> the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in 
>> truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more 
>> money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more 
>> than made up for some that would not have. 
>> 
>> If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors 
>> they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles 
>> at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. 
>> Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by 
>> more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of 
>> educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one 
>> mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less.
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed 
>>  wrote:
>> Hear, Hear.
>> 
>> Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films 
>> independent distributor's deal with.  We, the librarians, know that better 
>> than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're 
>> in our collection.  It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for 
>> my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it 
>> looks like a worthy title.  It has to be for a direct and immediate academic 
>> need.  Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up 
>> like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it.  Thus, 
>> even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience.
>> 
>> If I 

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]

[Jessica Rosner]

I think this is kind of different group of films Elizabeth. They do play in
theaters and they will be released in the home market. While I understand
some institutions may want to get PPR or buy them before they are available
in the retail market, the issue for me is films that sadly have little or no
retail market or ancillary rights .




On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Elizabeth Sheldon  wrote:

> Matt, James and Gary,
>
> This discussion is very timely as we are currently reviewing our pricing
> structure, both for PPR, non PPR to institutions and digital site licensing.
> We are aware that budgets for PPR are diminishing and that many institutions
> do not require the license since the DVDs are circulated only to individuals
> and not shown to non-admission paying groups. Last year we introduced non
> PPR pricing for many of our docs which, while not $30, sought to address the
> needs and budgets of the institutional community.
>
> As a distributor of many critically-acclaimed theatrically-released films
> and documentaries, such as City of Life and Death, United Red Army, Film
> Socialisme and Raw Faith (of which you will be hearing more about next
> week), we consider the institutional market a primary audience for our
> films. Starting next week, we will be offering our films day-and-date with
> the theatrical release for purchase with PPR and for one-time Community
> Screenings. Once the film is no longer actively being promoted to the the
> theatrical market, we will then offer the films without PPR for a
> substantially lower price. Currently, our PPR licenses are $249 and our non
> PPR institutional and library sales are $149. Eventually, many of the titles
> will be released into home video, at which time they are available at $30 to
> all without PPR. James, I would be happy to send you a list of all of our
> films available without PPR for $30. PPR licenses will remain at $249. For
> those looking to place larger orders with us (five or more films) without
> PPR, we are always happy to offer discounts. Our goal as a distributor is,
> to quote Matt, to be the primary source of "...amazing content at a cost
> that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of
> my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities."
>
> As Gary says though, the needs of the institutional market are changing and
> the demand for digital site licenses increasing as budget dollars are re
> directed from DVD to digital. We are currently revising our digital site
> licensing prices. While we will continue to offer substantially less
> expensive short term digital site licenses for those teachers who need a
> film for one semester, the majority of our films will be available with
> perpetual digital site licenses on an a la carte and collection basis. Stay
> tuned.
>
> And happy Fourth of July.
>
> Best,
>
> Elizabeth
>
> Elizabeth Sheldon
> Vice President
> Kino Lorber, Inc.
> 333 W. 39th St., Suite 503
> New York, NY 10018
> (212) 629-6880
>
> www.kinolorberedu.com
>
> On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:27 AM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote:
>
> > It has become increasingly clear to me (particular over the past three
> > years) that the existing pricing model for indie docs is simply not
> > viable.
> > The $250-$450 gambit for indie docs will, I'm afraid, not continue to
> fly,
> > even for moderately large and stable budgets such as mine (the large and
> > stable being more and more relative every day).  I've been around long
> > enough to understand and support the need for higher pricing in the indie
> > doc sector, but the ground rules for collecting in both public and
> private
> > institutions are changing and will continue to change in the face of
> > economic hard times.  I find myself increasingly "pulling my punches"
> when
> > it comes to shelling out for indie docs.  Where, at one time, I used to
> > think nothing of shelling out $300 based on anticipated use (i.e.
> > just-in-case use), now I'm more than a bit gun shy to pay such prices for
> > stuff that may not get used in the short-haul.
> >
> > I think $30 per shot is not really reasonable...but neither is $300.
> > Somehow the model has to change--both for physical media such as DVDs and
> > online delivery.
> >
> > gary
> >
> >
> >> A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're
> >> requesting Glee and Twilight.  An equally large chunk of the collecting
> I
> >> do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader
> >> curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like
> Bullfrog,
> >> Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc.  But those titles are so expensive that
> I
> >> can only afford to buy a few per year.
> >>
> >> However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for
> $30.00
> >> each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably
> >> more.  I'm not kidding.  Nothing would make me happier than flipping
> >> through c

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Ball, James (jmb4aw)]

Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible 
pricing.  Who else is interested?

Matt

__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812

On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, "Ball, James (jmb4aw)" 
mailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu>> wrote:

"If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they 
will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a 
pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance."

It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, 
but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial.  It 
is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few 
distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 
with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year 
than I did from the other distributors.

As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise.  And I'm even 
flexible on the price.  How about $60.00 with no PPR?

Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too.  Anybody want to take a test drive?

Matt



__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812

On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, "Jessica Rosner" 
<jessicapros...@gmail.com>
 wrote:

Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies 
at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never 
happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not 
otherwise, but  many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and 
they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also 
require a lot more time & money from a company and the real kicker is they 
would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order 
for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies 
since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price.
Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle 
ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I 
believe it was something  $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per 
title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200   at $50 each( or less as a 
set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. 
Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I 
thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold 
them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the 
institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some 
that would not have.

If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they 
will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a 
pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be 
especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is 
just not realistic for the vast majority of educational films and small 
distributors are not going to cherry pick one mildly popular title try to sell 
it for a lot less.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed 
<peter...@jmu.edu>
 wrote:
Hear, Hear.

Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films 
independent distributor's deal with.  We, the librarians, know that better than 
anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our 
collection.  It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my 
collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks 
like a worthy title.  It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need.  
Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's 
the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it.  Thus, even further 
reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience.

If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and be 
marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively.

In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of money 
OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with any 
distributor that will make this deal.

Erika
* * * * * *
Erika Peterson
Director of Media Resources
Carrier Library,  James Madison University
(540) 568-6770
http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media

From: James Ball 
<jmb...@eservices.vi

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries

[Elizabeth Stanley]

Hello, Matt,

You've got my attention.  Let's talk.

Elizabeth
Bullfrog Films
800-543-3764


From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu 
[mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James (jmb4aw)
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:13 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?]

A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're 
requesting Glee and Twilight.  An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, 
though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular 
needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women 
Make Movies, etc.  But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to 
buy a few per year.

However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each 
I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more.  I'm 
not kidding.  Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with 
a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have.  For me, I 
would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model 
that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection 
development strategies and budget priorities.  For the filmmakers and 
distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple 
copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm 
willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians 
who'd do the same.

There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of 
their films has increased five-fold.  Or is it four?  Anyway, you see my point.

Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested?  $30.00 per title, no PPR, and 
I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year.

Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there...

Matt

__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812

On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, "Jessica Rosner" 
mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>> wrote:

As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell you 
they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a chance 
in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject matter is 
generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to the popular 
topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and 
it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular 
$19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the 
distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like 
Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions would actually buy a wonderful series 
of films on the post genocide justice system in Rwanda or even one on 
Gerrymandering ( to plug the ones I deal with) the directors would be over the 
moon to sell them for $25 knowing more people could see them. When good 
documentaries are carried by public libraries at a fraction of the rate of bad 
action movies then you will see a huge drop in prices, heck if just one in 
every 500 university libraries bought them you would see the same.

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM, 
<ghand...@library.berkeley.edu>
 wrote:


 Original Message 
Subject:  Re: [Videonews] How do you know when you've become an artist?
From:  
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
Date: Fri, June 24, 2011 4:31 pm
To:   "Video Library News" 
<videon...@lists.berkeley.edu>
--

Problem isn't solved if the expensive title they've taken out and lost is
out of distribution.

All depends on the mission of your collection (and whether preservation
for long-haul to support teaching and research is part of it)

Gary (who's cool in Berkeley)





> At the University of Southern California we have in our collection
> at least 750 documentary films costing $250 or more. And no effetism
> here. All such films fully circulate. And if a student happens
> to lose such an item then said student is fully obliged to reimburse the
> costs of the film. Problem solved--and it is a policy that seems
> very much to work for us.
>
> And greetings from ALA and New Orleans!
>
> Cheers!
> Anthony
>
> ***
> Anthony E. Anderson
> Social Studies and Arts & Humanities Librarian
> Von KleinSmid Library
> University of Southern California
> Los Angeles, CA 90089-0182
> (213) 740-1190   
> 

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Ball, James (jmb4aw)]

"If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they 
will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a 
pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance."

It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, 
but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial.  It 
is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few 
distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 
with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year 
than I did from the other distributors.

As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise.  And I'm even 
flexible on the price.  How about $60.00 with no PPR?

Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too.  Anybody want to take a test drive?

Matt



__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812

On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, "Jessica Rosner" 
mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies 
at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never 
happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not 
otherwise, but  many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and 
they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also 
require a lot more time & money from a company and the real kicker is they 
would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order 
for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies 
since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price.
Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle 
ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I 
believe it was something  $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per 
title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200   at $50 each( or less as a 
set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. 
Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I 
thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold 
them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the 
institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some 
that would not have.

If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they 
will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a 
pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be 
especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is 
just not realistic for the vast majority of educational films and small 
distributors are not going to cherry pick one mildly popular title try to sell 
it for a lot less.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed 
<peter...@jmu.edu> wrote:
Hear, Hear.

Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films 
independent distributor's deal with.  We, the librarians, know that better than 
anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our 
collection.  It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my 
collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks 
like a worthy title.  It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need.  
Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's 
the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it.  Thus, even further 
reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience.

If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and be 
marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively.

In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of money 
OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with any 
distributor that will make this deal.

Erika
* * * * * *
Erika Peterson
Director of Media Resources
Carrier Library,  James Madison University
(540) 568-6770
http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media

From: James Ball 
<jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu>
Reply-To: 
<videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 14:13:23 +
To: 
"<videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>"
 
<videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]

A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're 
reque

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]

[Elizabeth Sheldon]

Matt, James and Gary,

This discussion is very timely as we are currently reviewing our pricing 
structure, both for PPR, non PPR to institutions and digital site licensing. We 
are aware that budgets for PPR are diminishing and that many institutions do 
not require the license since the DVDs are circulated only to individuals and 
not shown to non-admission paying groups. Last year we introduced non PPR 
pricing for many of our docs which, while not $30, sought to address the needs 
and budgets of the institutional community. 

As a distributor of many critically-acclaimed theatrically-released films and 
documentaries, such as City of Life and Death, United Red Army, Film Socialisme 
and Raw Faith (of which you will be hearing more about next week), we consider 
the institutional market a primary audience for our films. Starting next week, 
we will be offering our films day-and-date with the theatrical release for 
purchase with PPR and for one-time Community Screenings. Once the film is no 
longer actively being promoted to the the theatrical market, we will then offer 
the films without PPR for a substantially lower price. Currently, our PPR 
licenses are $249 and our non PPR institutional and library sales are $149. 
Eventually, many of the titles will be released into home video, at which time 
they are available at $30 to all without PPR. James, I would be happy to send 
you a list of all of our films available without PPR for $30. PPR licenses will 
remain at $249. For those looking to place larger orders with us (five or more 
films) without PPR, we are always happy to offer discounts. Our goal as a 
distributor is, to quote Matt, to be the primary source of "...amazing content 
at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the 
constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget 
priorities." 

As Gary says though, the needs of the institutional market are changing and the 
demand for digital site licenses increasing as budget dollars are re directed 
from DVD to digital. We are currently revising our digital site licensing 
prices. While we will continue to offer substantially less expensive short term 
digital site licenses for those teachers who need a film for one semester, the 
majority of our films will be available with perpetual digital site licenses on 
an a la carte and collection basis. Stay tuned.

And happy Fourth of July.

Best,

Elizabeth

Elizabeth Sheldon
Vice President
Kino Lorber, Inc.
333 W. 39th St., Suite 503
New York, NY 10018
(212) 629-6880

www.kinolorberedu.com

On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:27 AM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote:

> It has become increasingly clear to me (particular over the past three
> years) that the existing pricing model for indie docs is simply not
> viable.
> The $250-$450 gambit for indie docs will, I'm afraid, not continue to fly,
> even for moderately large and stable budgets such as mine (the large and
> stable being more and more relative every day).  I've been around long
> enough to understand and support the need for higher pricing in the indie
> doc sector, but the ground rules for collecting in both public and private
> institutions are changing and will continue to change in the face of
> economic hard times.  I find myself increasingly "pulling my punches" when
> it comes to shelling out for indie docs.  Where, at one time, I used to
> think nothing of shelling out $300 based on anticipated use (i.e.
> just-in-case use), now I'm more than a bit gun shy to pay such prices for
> stuff that may not get used in the short-haul.
> 
> I think $30 per shot is not really reasonable...but neither is $300. 
> Somehow the model has to change--both for physical media such as DVDs and
> online delivery.
> 
> gary
> 
> 
>> A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're
>> requesting Glee and Twilight.  An equally large chunk of the collecting I
>> do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader
>> curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog,
>> Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc.  But those titles are so expensive that I
>> can only afford to buy a few per year.
>> 
>> However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00
>> each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably
>> more.  I'm not kidding.  Nothing would make me happier than flipping
>> through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I
>> would love to have.  For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost
>> that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints
>> of my institution's collection development strategies and budget
>> priorities.  For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be
>> buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't
>> have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet
>> there are at least four other media

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Jessica Rosner]

Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell
copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it
will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you
would not otherwise, but  many educational titles deal with very specialized
subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it
would also require a lot more time & money from a company and the real
kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to
institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to
sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the
price.
Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a
middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by
women. I believe it was something  $50 for institutions and $25 for
individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200   at $50
each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen
to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund
the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in
truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more
money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more
than made up for some that would not have.

If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors
they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles
at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance.
Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by
more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of
educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one
mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less.

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed <
peter...@jmu.edu> wrote:

>   Hear, Hear.
>
>  Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films
> independent distributor's deal with.  We, the librarians, know that better
> than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're
> in our collection.  It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for
> my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think
> it looks like a worthy title.  It has to be for a direct and immediate
> academic need.  Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to
> lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for
> it.  Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience.
>
>  If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles
> and be marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively.
>
>  In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of
> money OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with
> any distributor that will make this deal.
>
>  Erika
>  * * * * * *
> Erika Peterson
> Director of Media Resources
> Carrier Library,  James Madison University
> (540) 568-6770
> http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media
>
>   From: James Ball 
> Reply-To: 
> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 14:13:23 +
> To: "" 
> Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]
>
>   A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're
> requesting Glee and Twilight.  An equally large chunk of the collecting I
> do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader
> curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog,
> Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc.  But those titles are so expensive that I
> can only afford to buy a few per year.
>
>  However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for
> $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten,
> probably more.  I'm not kidding.  Nothing would make me happier than
> flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles
> I would love to have.  For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost
> that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of
> my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities.
>  For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more
> titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even
> considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at
> least four other media librarians who'd do the same.
>
>  There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the
> visibility of their films has increased five-fold.  Or is it four?  Anyway,
> you see my point.
>
>  Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested?  $30.00 per title, no
> PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought
> last year.
>
>  Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there...
>
>  Matt
>
> _

[Videolib] Re: How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]

[ghandman]

It has become increasingly clear to me (particular over the past three
years) that the existing pricing model for indie docs is simply not
viable.
The $250-$450 gambit for indie docs will, I'm afraid, not continue to fly,
even for moderately large and stable budgets such as mine (the large and
stable being more and more relative every day).  I've been around long
enough to understand and support the need for higher pricing in the indie
doc sector, but the ground rules for collecting in both public and private
institutions are changing and will continue to change in the face of
economic hard times.  I find myself increasingly "pulling my punches" when
it comes to shelling out for indie docs.  Where, at one time, I used to
think nothing of shelling out $300 based on anticipated use (i.e.
just-in-case use), now I'm more than a bit gun shy to pay such prices for
stuff that may not get used in the short-haul.

I think $30 per shot is not really reasonable...but neither is $300. 
Somehow the model has to change--both for physical media such as DVDs and
online delivery.

gary


> A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're
> requesting Glee and Twilight.  An equally large chunk of the collecting I
> do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader
> curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog,
> Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc.  But those titles are so expensive that I
> can only afford to buy a few per year.
>
> However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00
> each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably
> more.  I'm not kidding.  Nothing would make me happier than flipping
> through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I
> would love to have.  For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost
> that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints
> of my institution's collection development strategies and budget
> priorities.  For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be
> buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't
> have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet
> there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same.
>
> There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the
> visibility of their films has increased five-fold.  Or is it four?
> Anyway, you see my point.
>
> Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested?  $30.00 per title, no PPR,
> and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last
> year.
>
> Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there...
>
> Matt
>
> __
> Matt Ball
> Media and Collections Librarian
> University of Virginia
> mattb...@virginia.edu
> 434-924-3812
>
> On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, "Jessica Rosner"
> mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell
> you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a
> chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The
> subject matter is generally geared towards the academic community or at
> least not to the popular topics that sell in the thousands and they have a
> lot of expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to distribute. These are
> simply not the same as the more popular $19.95 to $29.95 videos you will
> find at the retail level and keep in mind the distributor only gets back
> 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like Amazon. I assure you if
> 1500 institutions would actually buy a wonderful series of films on the
> post genocide justice system in Rwanda or even one on Gerrymandering ( to
> plug the ones I deal with) the directors would be over the moon to sell
> them for $25 knowing more people could see them. When good documentaries
> are carried by public libraries at a fraction of the rate of bad action
> movies then you will see a huge drop in prices, heck if just one in every
> 500 university libraries bought them you would see the same.
>
> On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM,
> <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu>
> wrote:
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject:  Re: [Videonews] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?
> From: 
> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
> Date: Fri, June 24, 2011 4:31 pm
> To:   "Video Library News"
> <videon...@lists.berkeley.edu>
> --
>
> Problem isn't solved if the expensive title they've taken out and lost is
> out of distribution.
>
> All depends on the missio

[Videolib] (no subject)

[Daryll Stevens]

SET videolib NOMAIL


VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues 
relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, 
preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and 
related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective 
working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication 
between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and 
distributors.

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]

[Peterson, Erika Day - petersed]

Hear, Hear.

Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films 
independent distributor's deal with.  We, the librarians, know that better than 
anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our 
collection.  It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my 
collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks 
like a worthy title.  It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need.  
Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's 
the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it.  Thus, even further 
reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience.

If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and be 
marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively.

In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of money 
OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with any 
distributor that will make this deal.

Erika
* * * * * *
Erika Peterson
Director of Media Resources
Carrier Library,  James Madison University
(540) 568-6770
http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media

From: James Ball 
mailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu>>
Reply-To: mailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>>
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 14:13:23 +
To: "mailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>>" 
mailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]

A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're 
requesting Glee and Twilight.  An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, 
though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular 
needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women 
Make Movies, etc.  But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to 
buy a few per year.

However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each 
I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more.  I'm 
not kidding.  Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with 
a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have.  For me, I 
would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model 
that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection 
development strategies and budget priorities.  For the filmmakers and 
distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple 
copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm 
willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians 
who'd do the same.

There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of 
their films has increased five-fold.  Or is it four?  Anyway, you see my point.

Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested?  $30.00 per title, no PPR, and 
I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year.

Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there...

Matt

__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812

On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, "Jessica Rosner" 
mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>> wrote:

As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell you 
they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a chance 
in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject matter is 
generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to the popular 
topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and 
it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular 
$19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the 
distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like 
Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions would actually buy a wonderful series 
of films on the post genocide justice system in Rwanda or even one on 
Gerrymandering ( to plug the ones I deal with) the directors would be over the 
moon to sell them for $25 knowing more people could see them. When good 
documentaries are carried by public libraries at a fraction of the rate of bad 
action movies then you will see a huge drop in prices, heck if just one in 
every 500 university libraries bought them you would see the same.

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM, 
<ghand...@library.berkeley.edu>
 wrote:


 Original Message 
Subject:  Re: [Videonews] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?
From:  
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
Date: Fri, June 24, 2011 4:31 pm
To:   "Video Library News" 
<

Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]

[Ball, James (jmb4aw)]

A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're 
requesting Glee and Twilight.  An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, 
though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular 
needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women 
Make Movies, etc.  But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to 
buy a few per year.

However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each 
I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more.  I'm 
not kidding.  Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with 
a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have.  For me, I 
would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model 
that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection 
development strategies and budget priorities.  For the filmmakers and 
distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple 
copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm 
willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians 
who'd do the same.

There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of 
their films has increased five-fold.  Or is it four?  Anyway, you see my point.

Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested?  $30.00 per title, no PPR, and 
I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year.

Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there...

Matt

__
Matt Ball
Media and Collections Librarian
University of Virginia
mattb...@virginia.edu
434-924-3812

On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, "Jessica Rosner" 
mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com>> wrote:

As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell you 
they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a chance 
in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject matter is 
generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to the popular 
topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and 
it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular 
$19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the 
distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like 
Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions would actually buy a wonderful series 
of films on the post genocide justice system in Rwanda or even one on 
Gerrymandering ( to plug the ones I deal with) the directors would be over the 
moon to sell them for $25 knowing more people could see them. When good 
documentaries are carried by public libraries at a fraction of the rate of bad 
action movies then you will see a huge drop in prices, heck if just one in 
every 500 university libraries bought them you would see the same.

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM, 
<ghand...@library.berkeley.edu>
 wrote:


 Original Message 
Subject:  Re: [Videonews] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?
From:  
ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
Date: Fri, June 24, 2011 4:31 pm
To:   "Video Library News" 
<videon...@lists.berkeley.edu>
--

Problem isn't solved if the expensive title they've taken out and lost is
out of distribution.

All depends on the mission of your collection (and whether preservation
for long-haul to support teaching and research is part of it)

Gary (who's cool in Berkeley)





> At the University of Southern California we have in our collection
> at least 750 documentary films costing $250 or more. And no effetism
> here. All such films fully circulate. And if a student happens
> to lose such an item then said student is fully obliged to reimburse the
> costs of the film. Problem solved--and it is a policy that seems
> very much to work for us.
>
> And greetings from ALA and New Orleans!
>
> Cheers!
> Anthony
>
> ***
> Anthony E. Anderson
> Social Studies and Arts & Humanities Librarian
> Von KleinSmid Library
> University of Southern California
> Los Angeles, CA 90089-0182
> (213) 740-1190   
> antho...@usc.edu
> "Wind, regen, zon, of kou,
> Albert Cuyp ik hou van jou."
> *
>
> - Original Message -
> From: jwoo <j...@cca.edu>
> Date: Friday, June 24, 2011 12:33 pm
> Subject: Re: [Videonews] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?
> To: Vi