Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
It's the vendor's prerogative to sell at different prices, but it annoys me when a film vendor doesn't understand U.S. copyright law and tries to grant or deny classroom screening rights -- which are explicitly allowed in section 110 of the copyright law. I expect that the higher institutional price will include a license for public performance rights, but it has nothing to do with classroom use. In this case, I would reply to the vendor, politely explaining the classroom exemption vs PPR. If the pricing is more than you want to pay - ask the vendor about discounts. I think we all understand that it's not feasible for most filmmakers to make a profit at $25 a DVD, but there's usually some room to work with. (I like discounts because stretching my funds means I ultimately am able to add more film titles for my patrons :-) And Richard - if you haven't attended the National Media Market, it's a great way to get to talk one-on-one with vendors and other video buying librarians. Barb Bergman | Media Services Interlibrary Loan Librarian | Minnesota State University, Mankato | (507) 389-5945 | barbara.berg...@mnsu.edu -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Graham Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 10:27 AM To: cams...@lists.carleton.edu Cc: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant Fellow camslib/videolib folks, A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books. At the site to purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations? Cheers from Nebraska, Richard VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
I am not sure vendor's don't understand the face to face exemption, but at a minimum some just are very sloppy in how they explain things on their sites. As I said in my first email I think titles where the vast majority of interest is going to be the institutional market I think it is best to bypass individual sales to avoid confusion and resentment. However if you do want to sell to individuals and prevent them from using their legally acquired copies in a class you need to have a very specific contract agreed to at the point of purchase. It is perfectly legal to restrict the use of a DVD if you make that part of contract the buyer is well aware of and accepts. I will say that a lot of filmmakers are genuinely ignorant of the law and actually believe there is some kind of requirement that institutions pay more. I have had one very frustrating case of this and after sending over various links including the copyright law I just gave up. On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 5:57 PM, Bergman, Barbara J barbara.berg...@mnsu.edu wrote: It's the vendor's prerogative to sell at different prices, but it annoys me when a film vendor doesn't understand U.S. copyright law and tries to grant or deny classroom screening rights -- which are explicitly allowed in section 110 of the copyright law. I expect that the higher institutional price will include a license for public performance rights, but it has nothing to do with classroom use. In this case, I would reply to the vendor, politely explaining the classroom exemption vs PPR. If the pricing is more than you want to pay - ask the vendor about discounts. I think we all understand that it's not feasible for most filmmakers to make a profit at $25 a DVD, but there's usually some room to work with. (I like discounts because stretching my funds means I ultimately am able to add more film titles for my patrons :-) And Richard - if you haven't attended the National Media Market, it's a great way to get to talk one-on-one with vendors and other video buying librarians. Barb Bergman | Media Services Interlibrary Loan Librarian | Minnesota State University, Mankato | (507) 389-5945 | barbara.berg...@mnsu.edu -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Graham Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 10:27 AM To: cams...@lists.carleton.edu Cc: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant Fellow camslib/videolib folks, A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books. At the site to purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears ( http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations? Cheers from Nebraska, Richard VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
The price for a 16mm 5-year lease for classroom use only was between $1500 and $2000! Linda Linda Duchin VP Nontheatrical Sales New Yorker Films 220 East 23rd St., Ste. 409 New York, NY 10011 linda.duc...@newyorkerfilms.com www,newyorkerfilms.com Phone: 212-645-4600 On 9/20/12 8:08 PM, Deg Farrelly deg.farre...@asu.edu wrote: To add to this ongoing discussionŠ a question directed to those who have been in the industry for a long timeŠ What were the going charges for a film in 16mm back in the day before video? I recall wanting desperately to have in my collection many of the Time-Life/McGraw Hill/Pyramid and such titles, but just could not afford them with my @$10-15,000 budget. I was thrilled when I managed to pick up used preview prints of Ascent of Man for $100 per print. (about 1979, but that is a guess) With inflation, that figure roughly equates to $296 today. And that was for a used print. We didn't have the home video market at the time. -deg deg farrelly, Media Librarian Arizona State University Libraries Hayden Library C1H1 P.O. Box 871006 Tempe, Arizona 85287-1006 Phone: 602.332.3103 VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
[Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
Fellow camslib/videolib folks, A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books. At the site to purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations? Cheers from Nebraska, Richard VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
Richard, I'll shoot a thought at that invitation. If the independent video authors and agents could get their works listed with jobbers, particularly Baker Taylor, Blackwell, and others that serve higher ed, then they could lower prices some because they'd have a bigger audience. On the other hand, it would be difficult to do away with tiered pricing altogether since it is a common business practice. Norm -- Norman Howden Assistant Dean, Educational Resources El Centro College 214-860-2176 nor...@dcccd.edu Please visit our website at: http://www.elcentrocollege.edu/library/ It may plausibly be urged that the shape of a culture - its mores, evaluations, family organizations, eating habits, living patterns, pedagogical methods, institutions, forms of government, and so forth - arise from the economic necessities of its technology. - Heinlein, 1940 On 9/20/2012 at 10:26 AM, in message ddaa91b1d53bc14dba679e49ea74af11195a4...@by2prd0811mb441.namprd08.prod.outlook. om, Richard Graham rgrah...@unl.edu wrote: Fellow camslib/videolib folks, A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books. At the site to purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations? Cheers from Nebraska, Richard VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
Dear folks, Just some information back. Even at $25 (and less), I sell about 50 to 150 copies of any of my DVDs to the colleges, high schools and public libraries of America. There are very few institutions left who buy indie DVDs and BluRays because they *should* be offering them to their students and public. Book publishers are obviously having the same exact problem. It's left to individuals to support my work. I can't blame filmmakers or other distributors for charging more. Dennis On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Norman Howden nor...@dcccd.edu wrote: Richard, I'll shoot a thought at that invitation. If the independent video authors and agents could get their works listed with jobbers, particularly Baker Taylor, Blackwell, and others that serve higher ed, then they could lower prices some because they'd have a bigger audience. On the other hand, it would be difficult to do away with tiered pricing altogether since it is a common business practice. Norm -- Norman Howden Assistant Dean, Educational Resources El Centro College 214-860-2176 nor...@dcccd.edu Please visit our website at: http://www.elcentrocollege.edu/library/ It may plausibly be urged that the shape of a culture - its mores, evaluations, family organizations, eating habits, living patterns, pedagogical methods, institutions, forms of government, and so forth - arise from the economic necessities of its technology. - Heinlein, 1940 On 9/20/2012 at 10:26 AM, in message ddaa91b1d53bc14dba679e49ea74af11195a4...@by2prd0811mb441.namprd08.prod.outlook. om, Richard Graham rgrah...@unl.edu wrote: Fellow camslib/videolib folks, A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books. At the site to purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations? Cheers from Nebraska, Richard VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Best regards, Dennis Doros Milestone Film Video/Milliarium Zero PO Box 128 / Harrington Park, NJ 07640 Phone: 201-767-3117 / Fax: 201-767-3035 / Email: milefi...@gmail.com Visit our main website! www.milestonefilms.com Visit our new websites! www.shirleyclarkefilms.com, www.comebackafrica.com www.ontheboweryfilm.com http://www.killerofsheep.com/ Support Milestone Film on Facebookhttp://www.facebook.com/pages/Milestone-Film/22348485426 and Twitter https://twitter.com/#!/MilestoneFilms! See the website: Association of Moving Image Archivistshttp://www.amianet.org/ and like them on Facebookhttp://www.facebook.com/pages/Association-of-Moving-Image-Archivists/86854559717 AMIA 2012 Conference, Seattle, WA, December 4-7!http://www.amiaconference.com/ VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
In my past life long before I ever got in the acquisition of DVDS, I worked here at USC as a serials librarian. With the pricing of academic journals, there always been a two tiered system of pricing. There is one rate which an individual pays for a subscription, and what a university library has to pay for an institutional rate. The difference between the two rates can often be enormous. Take, for example, *The Journal of Applied Psychology*. An individual pays $294, the annual institutional rate is $914. Trust me: no university library (including USC) is happy to pay this, but we accept this as a given. With a few significant exceptions, most academic journals could not continue in existence if this institutional rate was not imposed. And so it with the institutional price that film distributors must charge universities to purchase their documentary films. Do I wish that the institutional rate was cheaper? Of course, I do! But I also realize that without the institutional rate, the documentary distribution business in this country would pretty much cease to end. And for those who may think that documentary distributors are gouging the academic market, trust me (again): no one involved in documentary film distribution is rolling in big bucks. Thank you, Anthony *** Anthony E. Anderson Assistant Director, Doheny Memorial Library University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-0182 (213) 740-1190antho...@usc.edu Wind, regen, zon, of kou, Albert Cuyp ik hou van jou. On 9/20/2012 9:07 AM, Dennis Doros wrote: Dear folks, Just some information back. Even at $25 (and less), I sell about 50 to 150 copies of any of my DVDs to the colleges, high schools and public libraries of America. There are very few institutions left who buy indie DVDs and BluRays because they /should/ be offering them to their students and public. Book publishers are obviously having the same exact problem. It's left to individuals to support my work. I can't blame filmmakers or other distributors for charging more. Dennis On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Norman Howden nor...@dcccd.edu mailto:nor...@dcccd.edu wrote: Richard, I'll shoot a thought at that invitation. If the independent video authors and agents could get their works listed with jobbers, particularly Baker Taylor, Blackwell, and others that serve higher ed, then they could lower prices some because they'd have a bigger audience. On the other hand, it would be difficult to do away with tiered pricing altogether since it is a common business practice. Norm -- Norman Howden Assistant Dean, Educational Resources El Centro College 214-860-2176 tel:214-860-2176 nor...@dcccd.edu mailto:nor...@dcccd.edu Please visit our website at: http://www.elcentrocollege.edu/library/ It may plausibly be urged that the shape of a culture - its mores, evaluations, family organizations, eating habits, living patterns, pedagogical methods, institutions, forms of government, and so forth - arise from the economic necessities of its technology. - Heinlein, 1940 On 9/20/2012 at 10:26 AM, in message ddaa91b1d53bc14dba679e49ea74af11195a4...@by2prd0811mb441.namprd08.prod.outlook. om, Richard Graham rgrah...@unl.edu mailto:rgrah...@unl.edu wrote: Fellow camslib/videolib folks, A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books. At the site to purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations? Cheers from Nebraska, Richard VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions.
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
Hi Not many things are currently rousing me from my post-retirement lethargy, but this issue does. You're talking about buying a title from a distributor that has exclusive distribution rights. What's going on here--tiered pricing with specific stipulations re use--is really matter of business contract, rather than copyright. That is to say, the vendor can call the shots: the user, in purchasing a title, agrees to the terms and conditions of sale... The situation that fries (fried?) my ass is when a distributor puts its wares out into the broader home video market (e.g. amazon) and still tries to enforce tiered pricing. Basically, if a title turns up on amazon, I'm gonna buy it at home video prices, even if the vendor is selling the title at institutional prices via a distributor web site. If you don't need public performance rights (if all you're going to be using the title for is classroom screening or individual viewing in the library), you should always claim the face-to-face teaching exemption and go for the cheaper version. As for trying to persuade distributors to lower prices...I tried for 30 years and wasn't too successful, but then again I didn't try very hard, knowing as I did how slim the profit margin is for indie distributors and how generally tenuous that enterprise is... Cheers! Gary Handman Fellow camslib/videolib folks, A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books. At the site to purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations? Cheers from Nebraska, Richard VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. Gary Handman hand...@berkeley.edu “Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.” --Groucho Marx VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant (Jessica Rosner)
Jessica A wonderful explanation. As a distributer Docs For Education I want to add I don't want the retail Market at $25 a DVD, the work to correspond , invoice post etc. is the same for a Library use at $175 or a private home use at $25, as the so called fair use allows a legally bought DVD to screen a film in a classroom, I and other distributers have no reason to shot my own leg and sell for home use Sometimes an individual person contacts me for specific title that he has a personal interest in. This week a guy found a document that his father served 1943 on the SS. Darien and asked me for the Film the Darien Dilemma, I asked and got $56 yet specified it is only for his Home use If a university professor asks for a copy (very rare) I prefer to send him a Preview stating it is for personal use,( I hope that as s/he has not paid for it they can't use it in classroom), asking them that the library will contact me for a purchase. Cheers Nahum Laufer http://onedayafterpeace.com/index.php http://docsforeducation.com/ Sales Docs for Education Erez Laufer Films Holland st 10 Afulla 18371 Israel Today's Topics: 1. Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant (Richard Graham) 2. Re: Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant (Jessica Rosner) 3. Re: Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant (Norman Howden) 4. Re: Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant (Dennis Doros) -- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:26:54 + From: Richard Graham rgrah...@unl.edu Subject: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant To: cams...@lists.carleton.edu cams...@lists.carleton.edu Cc: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Message-ID: ddaa91b1d53bc14dba679e49ea74af11195a4...@by2prd0811mb441.namprd08.prod.outl ook.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Fellow camslib/videolib folks, A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books. At the site to purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations? Cheers from Nebraska, Richard -- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:41:56 -0400 From: Jessica Rosner maddux2...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Message-ID: cacre6m8by1ggmwy39htzjm4o4+23godoqcgrjksm2a4kegn...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I have probably posted on this dozens of times. You do NOT need any extra rights to show a legally acquired film in classroom BUT if it is only sold from a single source ( Filmmaker or their rep) as opposed to retail ( Amazon etc) than they can pretty much set any restrictions/pricing they want by CONTRACT though it should be made clear that it is contract and not copyright and the system should include one of those I have read and agreed to these conditions type of sign off at point of sale. A lot of distributors are between a rock and hard place. They have films which have very limited retail value but they also want as many people as possible to see the film so many offer copies to individuals. In the old days they rarely did. This comes with the obvious pitfall that you are going to piss off libraries who have to pay more. Sadly the vast majority of these films simply could not be made and distributed if all copies were sold at $25. I am justifying just explaining the reality. Personally I just think it better not to offer copies to individuals even if that limits the markets. I worked for several years on an excellent series of films on post genocide Rwanda and there was never an option for individuals to purchase the films at a retail price BUT when a special request was received, we would often agree to it explaining that we would make the exception but the film could not be used in a class or given to a library. Some of you may remember many months ago when the groupon experiment was tried. One company ( sorry guys I can't remember which one) offered to sell some of their most
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
Richard wrote: A faculty member recently requested we acquire a film titled White Scripts and Black Supermen: Black Masculinities in Comic Books. At the site to purchase it, the dreaded tiered pricing plan appears (http://newsreel.org/video/WHITE-SCRIPTS-BLACK-SUPERMEN), with public and school libraries allowed to buy it for $25, while colleges have to spend nearly $200. They claim if you purchase the home video version, you are not granted rights to show the film in classrooms. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but these sort of statements don't sound right to me. A colleague mentioned that some publishers do this because they need funds to cover future productions and it's a way for large institutions to subsidize independent documentaries, but I can't help feel offended that they use these scare tactics and assume colleges can easily absorb these large costs. I'm probably late to the party on this topic, but I wonder what your thoughts are. Does anyone try to work with publishers/producers to make these sort of materials more affordable? How do you all handle these sort of acquisition situations? I had a discussion with a producer/distributor just yesterday about this. For me, the problem is when folks *mix* the two setups of tiered pricing and rights needs. What this person told you concerning needing to pay for the right to use the film in the classroom is WRONG unless, as Jessica mentioned, it is specified in a contract that you agree to upon purchase. If a website indicates flat-out tiered pricing based on the buyer's status, then yes, I feel compelled to purchase at the institutional price. If, however, they tie price to rights needs and I know that all I need are standard library circulation and classroom use, I will maintain my right to purchase at the home-use price. Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with publishers/producers/small distributors. My answer is YES, and I did so in yesterday's case . I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges and universities lumped together. I mean, c'mon. With our FTE of 865, should we *really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or Rutgers? Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or Butler? To me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as college or university. So I do ask. And many times the producer/distributor understands and makes a reasonable alternative offer. So I say it's worth asking. Susan at Wabash College VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
Speaking as distributor of all labels, we have found that most of our university clients order 1 copy of a title we invoice all at the same deeply discounted rates. We do offer extraordinary specials, often at or below normal dealer cost and ONLY post those special offers on the MLA list serv. Our public library clients mostly order multiple quantity titles and so we have a bit of additional wiggle room in pricing there. If university clients would group their needs into weekly or even monthly orders they would do better than ordering individual titles as they often do. We often run complete catalog label sales libraries can save significant dollars by going throuh the label's catalog filling in their needs as compared to ordering a title here a title there. Just my two cents. Your search for sound video ends here! Jay Sonin, General Manager Music Hunter Distributing Company 4880 North Citation Drive, Suite # 101 Delray Beach, Florida 33445-6552 musichunter...@gmail.com 561-450-7152 -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Shoaf,Judith P Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 2:29 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant Susan at Wabash College wrote: Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with publishers/producers/small distributors. My answer is YES, and I did so in yesterday's case . I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges and universities lumped together. I mean, c'mon. With our FTE of 865, should we *really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or Rutgers? Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or Butler? To me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as college or university. So I do ask. And many times the producer/distributor understands and makes a reasonable alternative offer. So I say it's worth asking. Yes, and whenever someone from a small liberal arts college expresses surprise that University of Florida doesn't have a basic service that their courses use and depend on, I can explain that it's because they price by the number of potential users, i.e. enrollment. Judy Shoaf VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
Susan at Wabash College wrote: Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with publishers/producers/small distributors. My answer is YES, and I did so in yesterday's case . I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges and universities lumped together. I mean, c'mon. With our FTE of 865, should we *really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or Rutgers? Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or Butler? To me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as college or university. So I do ask. And many times the producer/distributor understands and makes a reasonable alternative offer. So I say it's worth asking. Judy replied: Yes, and whenever someone from a small liberal arts college expresses surprise that University of Florida doesn't have a basic service that their courses use and depend on, I can explain that it's because they price by the number of potential users, i.e. enrollment. Susan again: Fair enough. I wasn't actually proposing that these producers and distributors have an ever-upward pricing scheme, though, where they charge more and more for higher and higher enrollments. I was simply suggesting that tiered pricing schemes almost always seem to have THREE components -- home use, public library/community college, college/university -- and when the college is very small, I think it makes sense to ask for something comparable to the PL/community college rate. In a couple of cases, I work with vendors who do just that for us. In yesterday's situation, the offer came in between the standard college/university and public library. Susan at Wabash VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
We charged $850 for an hour-long film and $550 for a half-hour. Of course everything was expensive: creating the internegative, making prints, even the reels, shipping cases and of course postage, because of the weight. VHS was a lot cheaper, but now with DVD and streaming there are all sorts of upfront costs again in captioning and authoring DVDs, encoding for online, storage and streaming costs etc. Face it. We're in an expensive business from top to toe. John Hoskyns-Abrahall Bullfrog Films PO Box 149 Oley, PA 19547 Toll-Free: 800/543-3764 Email: j...@bullfrogfilms.com http://www.bullfrogfilms.com Voice: 610/779-8226 Fax: 610/370-1978 -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Deg Farrelly Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 8:09 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant To add to this ongoing discussionŠ a question directed to those who have been in the industry for a long timeŠ What were the going charges for a film in 16mm back in the day before video? I recall wanting desperately to have in my collection many of the Time-Life/McGraw Hill/Pyramid and such titles, but just could not afford them with my @$10-15,000 budget. I was thrilled when I managed to pick up used preview prints of Ascent of Man for $100 per print. (about 1979, but that is a guess) With inflation, that figure roughly equates to $296 today. And that was for a used print. We didn't have the home video market at the time. -deg deg farrelly, Media Librarian Arizona State University Libraries Hayden Library C1H1 P.O. Box 871006 Tempe, Arizona 85287-1006 Phone: 602.332.3103 VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant
A couple of things Jay. The discussion here is basically about specialized educational media which is not sold retail/wholesale as your titles would be. These are in most cases exclusive distribution deals of material which is largely of interest only to the academic community ( not covering folks who post on fiction feature/ theatrical films which I do myself sometimes) Some companies like California Newsreel specialize in particular genre /theme of film and in many cases these films and even some of the promotion is supported by grants and other funding from non profit groups who specifically support their mission. As such it is not shocking that they would offer special discounts to a target audience particularly one which traditionally has more limited funds. As noted by others you can always try to negotiate on pricing. Many distributors and filmmakers are sensitive to special needs and limited funds. On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Music Hunter musichunter...@gmail.comwrote: I never heard of “ race based pricing “. That certainly does not sound “ right “ to me. Music Hunter offers maximum discounts to all institutions.* *** ** ** Now that’s a RANT! ** ** Your search for sound video ends here! Jay Sonin, General Manager Music Hunter Distributing Company 4880 North Citation Drive, Suite # 101 Delray Beach, Florida 33445-6552 *musichunter...@gmail.com musichun...@nyc.rr.com *561-450-7152* * ** ** *From:* videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] *On Behalf Of *Nellie J Chenault *Sent:* Thursday, September 20, 2012 4:01 PM *To:* videolib@lists.berkeley.edu *Subject:* Re: [Videolib] Institutional Pricing for DVDs rant ** ** I do not object to institutional pricing. There are similar models with journal subscriptions for institutions vs. individual. I do like to get some public performance rights when we pay the institutional price. PPR may be needed in some countries for classroom use, but it is not needed within the U.S.. Some of the newer vendors within this market have tried to give no PPR but classroom use rights with institutional pricing ... wrong headed! ** ** Some vendors do have a mission to serve select communities. Discounts for historically black colleges is a good discount fit in this case. ** ** Budgets for higher ed, community colleges and public libraries vary per institution. A prefer a medium priced institutional price to tiered pricing. I do know that most pubic libraries have strong guidelines about purchases over say ... $100... and there are few purchases of independent educational documentaries by this type library. ** ** Nell Chenault Research Librarian for Film and Music VCU Libraries Virginia Commonwealth University On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Susan Albrecht albre...@wabash.edu wrote: Susan at Wabash College wrote: Richard, you asked if any of us ever try to work with publishers/producers/small distributors. My answer is YES, and I did so in yesterday's case . I'm not necessarily opposed to the concept of tiered pricing for these kinds of films, but I *do* object to having all colleges and universities lumped together. I mean, c'mon. With our FTE of 865, should we *really* have to pay the same price as a Berkeley, Ohio State or Rutgers? Heck, should we even have to pay the same price as Vanderbilt or Butler? To me, it should be the number of potential users, not status as college or university. So I do ask. And many times the producer/distributor understands and makes a reasonable alternative offer. So I say it's worth asking. Judy replied: Yes, and whenever someone from a small liberal arts college expresses surprise that University of Florida doesn't have a basic service that their courses use and depend on, I can explain that it's because they price by the number of potential users, i.e. enrollment. Susan again: Fair enough. I wasn't actually proposing that these producers and distributors have an ever-upward pricing scheme, though, where they charge more and more for higher and higher enrollments. I was simply suggesting that tiered pricing schemes almost always seem to have THREE components -- home use, public library/community college, college/university -- and when the college is very small, I think it makes sense to ask for something comparable to the PL/community college rate. In a couple of cases, I work with vendors who do just that for us. In yesterday's situation, the offer came in between the standard college/university and public library. Susan at Wabash VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped
