[VIHUELA] Re: Baleto
If anyone is interested, Stuart has now put a second version of this on his web site in which I have indicated the notes in the upper octave on the 4th course in red. It's at http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Baleto/Baleto2.jpg This doesn't seem to me to create much of a problem. I think it is meant to be a dance of some sort and the emphasis is on the rhythm rather than any very obvious or memorable melody. In the end it is a matter of personal taste I suppose and there is no accounting for taste... Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
At 05:25 AM 10/30/2007, bill kilpatrick wrote: not sure what the difference is between tremolo and dedillo... Depending, both techniques can coincide. Dedillo is striking the string with both the up and downstroke, or both the contraction and extension, of a finger. Tremolo is the rapid repetition of a note; in the case of plucked strings, it's typically an effort to emulate a continuous, bow-like sustain. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jungga (2)
On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 15:04:13 -0800 bill kilpatrick wrote: i can't see how an antique design like the jungga 2 (a rectangle inserted into a circle) could come from anywhere other than europe. I can't see either but only as antique as a bold sketch of a modern guitar shape could be (not sure what you mean by a rectangle inserted into a circle, please explain). seeing that the jungga 1 is a boat shaped lute - in keeping with many of the indigenous, southeast asian designs for plucky instruments - the 2 stands apart as something unique. Jungga1 is a totally different story and shouldn't be really mixed with what came much later. Junga2 most probably serves the same purpose in music making nowadays as jungga1 did for the last four - five centuries or so and hence similarity in its name. For example, think of a similar situation with arrival of European violin (held against the player's knee, not the shoulder) to the Middle East and its gradual replacement, from about 1950s or so, of the traditional rabab and kemençe in classical ensembles of Turkish, Iranian and Arab music (I mean classical in their own way, not as in European classical music). my knowledge of indonesian history - as it relates to europe - is sketchy at best but i would have thought it more than probable that a design of european - no doubt iberian - orign (like that of the rectangle and circle) would have been in circulation in the area way before the 20th cent.. It would be too simplistic to ascribe too much influence here on behalf of, as you say, European and Iberian origin; well, unless you know the facts .. i'm sure you're familiar with these early charango designs (imported from europe, i would suggest) but for the purposes of illustration, here they are: ... I can't open this link I'm afraid. was the jungga 2 design found anywhere in europe in the 20th cent.? ... would it have been brought to indonesia in sufficent numbers to influence local instrument design? And why should I think only of charango connection here ...? To conclude, I put it as early 20th century, in fact I think it could have happened quite a bit later, 1950 - 60s. --- Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: jungga (2)
--- Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't see either but only as antique as a bold sketch of a modern guitar shape could be (not sure what you mean by a rectangle inserted into a circle, please explain). a circle with a pill-box hat stuck on the top. seeing that the jungga 1 is a boat shaped lute - in keeping with many of the indigenous, southeast asian designs for plucky instruments - the 2 stands apart as something unique. Jungga1 is a totally different story and shouldn't be really mixed with what came much later. Junga2 most probably serves the same purpose in music making nowadays as jungga1 did for the last four - five centuries or so and hence similarity in its name. For example, think of a similar situation with arrival of European violin (held against the player's knee, not the shoulder) to the Middle East and its gradual replacement, from about 1950s or so, of the traditional rabab and kemençe in classical ensembles of Turkish, Iranian and Arab music (I mean classical in their own way, not as in European classical music). how it get's played is something different - as with the kitara from the philippines, listed below the jungga on the atlas page (... played like the player thinks it should be played.) what struck me about the jungga 2 was its shape. my knowledge of indonesian history - as it relates to europe - is sketchy at best but i would have thought it more than probable that a design of european - no doubt iberian - orign (like that of the rectangle and circle) would have been in circulation in the area way before the 20th cent.. It would be too simplistic to ascribe too much influence here on behalf of, as you say, European and Iberian origin; well, unless you know the facts i don't think facts are available. most lutes in the area are boat shaped; the jungga 2 is not. although just as down home in its construction as number 1, the jungga 2 suggests a different origin - not a variation on the boat-shape or a lotus or moon-shape, as if from china but european. i'm sure you're familiar with these early charango designs (imported from europe, i would suggest) I can't open this link I'm afraid. one of the primative charango designs has this circle with a pillbox hat shape. And why should I think only of charango connection here ...? only in the context of a similar chordaphone design; imported from europe to south america, where chordaphones did not exist and south-east asia, where the dominant design was boat/lotus/moon-shaped. To conclude, I put it as early 20th century, in fact I think it could have happened quite a bit later, 1950 - 60s. in that case the jungga 2 would have more of a figure 8 shape, no? ... ukuleles ... elvis ... being world-wide commodities at that point. regards - bill http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ ___ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
Hi all, The other two are do dedos (thumb and finger like most lutenists), and index and middle finger (like modern guitarists). The last was apparently Fuenllana's fingering of choice. Ralph - Original Message - From: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:03 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo To: 'Vihuela Net' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] archiving (is that a word?) problems from your address might be spam related. it happened to me once and i felt just awful about it (my italian server was to blame ...) in ralph maier's excellent article there's a quote in translation from miguel de fuenllana which mentions ... three ways [in] which [they] customarily are played on this instrument, the vihuela. only one - dedillo - is elaborated. please, what are the other two? - bill --- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wayne has told me that the archive computer has decided it doesn't like me...and is refusing to archive my posts. I'm trying not to take this personally. BTW, Ralph Maier, he of the online article re dedillo (and excellent vihuela playing) has joined our list. Welcome, friend. Rob www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ ___Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ --
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
Alternating thumb and index (apparently used by 'foreigners', according to Fuenllana) and alternating index and middle (the Spanish way). Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: bill kilpatrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 October 2007 22:03 To: 'Vihuela Net' Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo archiving (is that a word?) problems from your address might be spam related. it happened to me once and i felt just awful about it (my italian server was to blame ...) in ralph maier's excellent article there's a quote in translation from miguel de fuenllana which mentions ... three ways [in] which [they] customarily are played on this instrument, the vihuela. only one - dedillo - is elaborated. please, what are the other two? - bill --- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wayne has told me that the archive computer has decided it doesn't like me...and is refusing to archive my posts. I'm trying not to take this personally. BTW, Ralph Maier, he of the online article re dedillo (and excellent vihuela playing) has joined our list. Welcome, friend. Rob www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ ___ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
At 07:00 PM 10/30/2007, Stuart Walsh wrote: Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique? I don't think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any kind of lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of the instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there? And hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get the flesh of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of dedillo seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the considered upward pluck of the fingers with - what could easily be- a rather percussive chunk downwards with the thumb? Dedillo as tremolo is pretty common to modern classical guitar and perhaps even more common to flamenco (and, as Bill has offered, to chordal charango technique). I'm not certain how to interpret your latter paragraph, Stuart. The potential imbalance in tone is between the typical full-voiced upstroke of nail/flesh against the thinner-voiced downstroke of the same finger, back of nail only. To quote the fine detail of Ralph's article: [W]hen commencing a section of passage-work where dedillo has been indicated in the tablature, or where the passage seems well-suited to this type of articulation, the vihuelist begins with an upward stroke on the accented beat with the fleshy side of the index finger. During the subsequent release of the finger to its original starting point (in other words, the downstroke), the vihuelist articulates the string again, now with nail side of the finger. I don't necessarily think it needs to balance. I think the strong-weak pulse is a feature of dedillo to be exploited. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
in watching the videos i mentioned earlier, i find that for me - sans pick - if i expose the full face of the fingernail (index or middle) to the string (as if i were buffing it with the strings) i get a not half-bad sound. the half flesh/half nail is probably louder but i get a faster trill with the full face of the nail. my ... isn't this nitty-gritty ... putting the charango as vihuela polemic (diatribe) aside for the moment (please) ... the technique involved in playing either/or (imho) seems useful to both. --- Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (!! OK I got a bit confused!) Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique? I don't think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any kind of lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of the instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there? And hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get the flesh of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of dedillo seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the considered upward pluck of the finger flesh with - what could easily be- a rather percussive chunk of the nail on the downward stroke? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ ___ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
John, Is the Portuguese guitar you mention the 4-course like the Renaissance guitar and the uke? Jocelyn From: John Griffiths [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 10/30/2007 8:41 PM To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo My two-penneth worth is that we have two main ways of learning about dedillo from contemporary practice. One is from the variety of techniques used in vihuela/guitarra-derivatives in Latin America, such as the charango and various others. The second is the Portuguese guitar that has continued to use dedillo technique in a manner that I suspect is not far removed from the way that sixteenth-century vihuelists used it. John On 31/10/2007, at 10:23, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 07:00 PM 10/30/2007, Stuart Walsh wrote: Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique? I don't think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any kind of lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of the instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there? And hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get the flesh of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of dedillo seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the considered upward pluck of the fingers with - what could easily be- a rather percussive chunk downwards with the thumb? Dedillo as tremolo is pretty common to modern classical guitar and perhaps even more common to flamenco (and, as Bill has offered, to chordal charango technique). I'm not certain how to interpret your latter paragraph, Stuart. The potential imbalance in tone is between the typical full-voiced upstroke of nail/flesh against the thinner-voiced downstroke of the same finger, back of nail only. To quote the fine detail of Ralph's article: [W]hen commencing a section of passage-work where dedillo has been indicated in the tablature, or where the passage seems well-suited to this type of articulation, the vihuelist begins with an upward stroke on the accented beat with the fleshy side of the index finger. During the subsequent release of the finger to its original starting point (in other words, the downstroke), the vihuelist articulates the string again, now with nail side of the finger. I don't necessarily think it needs to balance. I think the strong- weak pulse is a feature of dedillo to be exploited. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ~ Professor John Griffiths Faculty of Music =95 The University of Melbourne 3010 =95 Victoria =95 Australia tel (61+3) 8344 8810 =95 fax (61+3) 8344 5346 =95 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this e- mail is received in error please delete it and notify us by return e- mail. -- --
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
My two-penneth worth is that we have two main ways of learning about dedillo from contemporary practice. One is from the variety of techniques used in vihuela/guitarra-derivatives in Latin America, such as the charango and various others. The second is the Portuguese guitar that has continued to use dedillo technique in a manner that I suspect is not far removed from the way that sixteenth-century vihuelists used it. John On 31/10/2007, at 10:23, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 07:00 PM 10/30/2007, Stuart Walsh wrote: Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique? I don't think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any kind of lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of the instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there? And hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get the flesh of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of dedillo seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the considered upward pluck of the fingers with - what could easily be- a rather percussive chunk downwards with the thumb? Dedillo as tremolo is pretty common to modern classical guitar and perhaps even more common to flamenco (and, as Bill has offered, to chordal charango technique). I'm not certain how to interpret your latter paragraph, Stuart. The potential imbalance in tone is between the typical full-voiced upstroke of nail/flesh against the thinner-voiced downstroke of the same finger, back of nail only. To quote the fine detail of Ralph's article: [W]hen commencing a section of passage-work where dedillo has been indicated in the tablature, or where the passage seems well-suited to this type of articulation, the vihuelist begins with an upward stroke on the accented beat with the fleshy side of the index finger. During the subsequent release of the finger to its original starting point (in other words, the downstroke), the vihuelist articulates the string again, now with nail side of the finger. I don't necessarily think it needs to balance. I think the strong- weak pulse is a feature of dedillo to be exploited. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ~ Professor John Griffiths Faculty of Music =95 The University of Melbourne 3010 =95 Victoria =95 Australia tel (61+3) 8344 8810 =95 fax (61+3) 8344 5346 =95 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this e- mail is received in error please delete it and notify us by return e- mail. --
