[VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee
I agree that the ordinary 5 course 'baroque' guitar can be loud. Are there any extant theorboes/archlutes or early records of such with extended basses of string length only 90/100cm? MH --- On Sun, 19/7/09, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 19 July, 2009, 8:52 PM On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Martyn Hodgson[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Has anyone actually played one of these instruments in with a basses of length only around 90cm (as seems to be depicted) and with plain gut (and no octave doubling as on the liuto attiorbato Not a guitar. I have a smallish 440Hz archlute 61/106cm, going to low G' with single plain gut basses. Good sound, no problem. Yes, my 140-something-cm theorbo is better, and I'm sure a 200cm theorbo is even better - size does matter - but still, 106cm to low G' is good enough for most practical purposes. It depends a little on what I want to play with it: Monteverdi with a full orchestra and choir is possible, but obviously not ideal. The top is more of a problem there, by the way, the basses are strong enough. Delicate solo playing, quite nicely in balance with the top of the instrument. Solo singer in a not too big concert hall or church, no problem. But indeed, not the depth or sustain of the 140cm theorbo. It has a less relaxed feel to it, when I'm aiming at a similar level of volume, is perhaps the best way of describing it. Point is, 106cm is quite ok for low single basses in plain gut. 90cm is a bit shorter, but fiddle with tuning and/or pitch, and it might not be that far removed. David - baroque guitar with just five coures, but boy, can that be loud! -- *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee
On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Are there any extant theorboes/archlutes or early records of such with extended basses of string length only 90/100cm? I don't know, it was my solution to the practical problems of modern travel. There are no contemporary records telling us what Piccinini did when he had to board a plane with his archlute. Joking aside, sure, there's no historical proof, but no existing proof of existence does not proof it didn't exist. The proof of the pudding etc. and my lute works. Two friends of mine have something similar: neck extensions of about 100cm (110cm?) and single basses. One friend uses all modern strings, goes to low F' by the way, but the other friend is an all-gut player. But do carry on about theorboed guitars, all I had to say was that 106cm, single plain gut, G', a'=440Hz works for me and makes flight attendants less nervous than my theorbo on the seat next to me. But it's not 90cm, it's not on a guitar, it's not on a historical instrument, so don't let it distract you. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee
Madoras/Gallichons often ask for the 6th course to be retuned by a minor third but, of course, they are using overwound strings on the bass (with octave) which gives more latitude. But also many lute tabs show the 7th course either a tone below the 6th or a fourth - wether or not they constantly restrung or (because of the high quality of their double wound/loaded/v high twist) a retune of a minor third was acceptable - I do not have any evidence. MH From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 20 July, 2009, 8:44 AM I have a query about the Gallot guitarre theorbee If we assume this guitarre theorbee is a standard Chitarra atiorbata just using scordatura this would involve tuning the 5th course up a minor 3rd from aA to c'c. How practical would this be without re-stringing the course? Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee
Are we discussing battuto or pizzicato? The GTh was probably mainly used for plucking. Lex - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 9:18 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee I agree that the ordinary 5 course 'baroque' guitar can be loud. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee
The music for guitarre theorbee in the Gallot manuscript is entirely in lute style - that is - the note values are always above the stave not on it. It is basically in two parts which is why there is often a wide gap between the voices. There are 3-part chords on the fingerboard - many of which are open courses only. If there is an open bass as well this will sound below them even if the these are in the upper octave. Have you actually looked at the music? Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 9:37 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee Are we discussing battuto or pizzicato? The GTh was probably mainly used for plucking. Lex - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 9:18 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee I agree that the ordinary 5 course 'baroque' guitar can be loud. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee
Yes, I had looked at the MS. The point with battuto or pizzicato is about the volume of the tone of the guitar. I suppose that the GTh was not much used for strumming (if for anything), as appears from Granata 1659 and Gallot, and the basses would have to balance with the (probably modest) sound level of the plucked trebles. Lex - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 2:07 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee The music for guitarre theorbee in the Gallot manuscript is entirely in lute style - that is - the note values are always above the stave not on it. It is basically in two parts which is why there is often a wide gap between the voices. There are 3-part chords on the fingerboard - many of which are open courses only. If there is an open bass as well this will sound below them even if the these are in the upper octave. Have you actually looked at the music? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. But I think that high basses would balence better with the upper parts. This is certainly the case on my keyboard. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 1:19 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee Yes, I had looked at the MS. The point with battuto or pizzicato is about the volume of the tone of the guitar. I suppose that the GTh was not much used for strumming (if for anything), as appears from Granata 1659 and Gallot, and the basses would have to balance with the (probably modest) sound level of the plucked trebles. Lex - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 2:07 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee The music for guitarre theorbee in the Gallot manuscript is entirely in lute style - that is - the note values are always above the stave not on it. It is basically in two parts which is why there is often a wide gap between the voices. There are 3-part chords on the fingerboard - many of which are open courses only. If there is an open bass as well this will sound below them even if the these are in the upper octave. Have you actually looked at the music? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message
[VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee
I said 'ordinary 5 course' guitar (see below) in affirmation of another communication from David Van O on the subject of guitar volume generally. As far as I'm aware, like you, I believe the theorboed guitar was only ever plucked and probably mostly used for just exotic solo music. Low tension plain gut at the higher octave balance very well with fingerboard plucked strings (more so than heavy thud low octave basses) and with the general tessitura of the instrument. As said before, since the evidence is not absolutely clear, nothing is certain but I do think the greatest danger is assuming the Old Ones were seeking for a 'complete' instrument - a sort of continuo theorbo- guitar manque which would give a full range of bass notes to allow BC. Surely the theorbo proper is better for this with the guitar providing its own idiomatic (ie mostly strummed) continuo acc. M. --- On Mon, 20/7/09, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 20 July, 2009, 9:37 AM Are we discussing battuto or pizzicato? The GTh was probably mainly used for plucking. Lex - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 9:18 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee I agree that the ordinary 5 course 'baroque' guitar can be loud. To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee
Depends on who were the Old Ones. Adding strings to the guitar to make it more complete was done in all ages. Carulli used a decacorde, nowadays there is a Brahms-guitar. Probably a matter of compensation. The tessitura of he fingerboard plucked strings could range to a low bourdon A. Lex - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 4:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee I said 'ordinary 5 course' guitar (see below) in affirmation of another communication from David Van O on the subject of guitar volume generally. As far as I'm aware, like you, I believe the theorboed guitar was only ever plucked and probably mostly used for just exotic solo music. Low tension plain gut at the higher octave balance very well with fingerboard plucked strings (more so than heavy thud low octave basses) and with the general tessitura of the instrument. As said before, since the evidence is not absolutely clear, nothing is certain but I do think the greatest danger is assuming the Old Ones were seeking for a 'complete' instrument - a sort of continuo theorbo- guitar manque which would give a full range of bass notes to allow BC. Surely the theorbo proper is better for this with the guitar providing its own idiomatic (ie mostly strummed) continuo acc. M. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee
But there have always been these odd instruments - like the two guitars in one which Stephen Barber actually made and I had a go on. He was also threatening to make a diphone. If you go round museums you will see all manner of oddities but they usually have a short shelf life because they really serve no useful purpose. You can't really argue on that basis that most players were disatisfied with the 5-course guitar to the extent that they wanted an instrument with extended bass strings. If they were - as I have already said - the sensible cost effective option was to put on a 6th or even a 7th course - like the lute. Or they could have taken up the theorbo or whatever. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 3:28 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee Depends on who were the Old Ones. Adding strings to the guitar to make it more complete was done in all ages. Carulli used a decacorde, nowadays there is a Brahms-guitar. Probably a matter of compensation. The tessitura of he fingerboard plucked strings could range to a low bourdon A. Lex - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Monday, July 20, 2009 4:02 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chitarra atiorbata/Guitarre theorbee I said 'ordinary 5 course' guitar (see below) in affirmation of another communication from David Van O on the subject of guitar volume generally. As far as I'm aware, like you, I believe the theorboed guitar was only ever plucked and probably mostly used for just exotic solo music. Low tension plain gut at the higher octave balance very well with fingerboard plucked strings (more so than heavy thud low octave basses) and with the general tessitura of the instrument. As said before, since the evidence is not absolutely clear, nothing is certain but I do think the greatest danger is assuming the Old Ones were seeking for a 'complete' instrument - a sort of continuo theorbo- guitar manque which would give a full range of bass notes to allow BC. Surely the theorbo proper is better for this with the guitar providing its own idiomatic (ie mostly strummed) continuo acc. M. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 4 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message
